I really think that removing a campaign/storyline from the game is the future of MMOs. Instead of having a very linear story that arcs across the whole leveling process we should have a broad directive.
In TTS this would be "fight against a hostile world to build a large, beautiful, and flourishing society."
I think one issue is that when you bind yourself to a single terminating story line the game just ends. Single player games could do this because you just beat the game and that was it, but MMOs aren't like that. It doesn't make sense to have a terminating story in an MMO.
Defeat Deathwing or some other lore villain and win is silly. Once you defeat them the game is over for all practical purposes.
Open ended stories are far more suitable.
The same can be said about stories with no end to them. Many you claim the gener to be Hamster Wheels and want to move away from, instead creating another version of it. Regardless it's still going to be there.
So a guy who doesn't play MMOs comes to a website dedicated to MMOs and tells us why he no longer plays MMOs. Brilliant.
Good. I enjoy hearing these kinds of insights and also agree completely with what he said.
I also enjoy reading about games being developed that I don't intend to play because I enjoy that side of the game world as well. Is that OK with you?
You can't come to an MMO discussion forum and not expect to hear about all sides of the coin, that's just naive. His post *is* related to MMOs and very apt, but you probably didn't read it.
It was actually a lot more insightful and enjoyable than your contribution, if you want something to consider.
And yet the market has thrived and grown immensely since WOW came and fixed all that was wrong with EQ.
They did not fix what was wrong. They just simply introduced the game to many more people. More advertising. Not to downgrade WoW or anything, but to me WoW looked like a game for children to me. And it obviously worked, it introduced MMO's to many children, teenagers and adults. The problem is that people are not willing to try anything else before they shoot it down.
People have made their opinions based on what they like.
So, to me somebody who has experience all genres, their opinion hold more valid to me than someone who simply had only played one type and strictly believes that this type is the only way to go. People are making decisions on what they like before experiencing other options. That is why you see many of us who have experience others and prefer previous content compared to new content complaining.
Actually, many who started with WoW are beginning to complain because every game believes that their success is the only way to be successful. But WoW themselves proved differently, when they changed MMO's and people liked that. Maybe, a combination of both is the answer? Or maybe a whole new genre is the answer...
ColumbiaTrue do you still play EQ? If no, why not it seams like you enjoyed the game?
Answering this for myself, I am still playing EQ as I did enjoy it.
However, most new players are not going back and trying old games as they are satisfied with the new games coming out. So, EQs population has dropped and they are making it easier to solo because players are not able to group.
Of course, I have decided to still pay them because they have stated they plan to make EQ Next similar to the playstyle of EQ1, so therefore I will support them with my money through expansions and subscriptions just for the possibility of this.
I personally, believe the first game to come out and be more group oriented, while still offering many opportunities for soloers will exceed any MMO out now. The fact is many have not experienced the thrill the few of us did in earlier MMO's, but a new game would lead to many of these players to have that experience and they will likely understand our argument once they do get that first hand experience.
You telling me SOE is updating EQ and turning it into EQ Next with better graphics and other changes, but at the same time they making the game less difficult and more solo friendly ?
Or is Eq Next a whole new game based in the EQ universe? If that is the case SOE just went the way that will get them the most subscribers, and this is sadly a solo friendly environment.
MMORPG Forums: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.
I really think that removing a campaign/storyline from the game is the future of MMOs. Instead of having a very linear story that arcs across the whole leveling process we should have a broad directive.
In TTS this would be "fight against a hostile world to build a large, beautiful, and flourishing society."
I think one issue is that when you bind yourself to a single terminating story line the game just ends. Single player games could do this because you just beat the game and that was it, but MMOs aren't like that. It doesn't make sense to have a terminating story in an MMO.
Defeat Deathwing or some other lore villain and win is silly. Once you defeat them the game is over for all practical purposes.
Open ended stories are far more suitable.
The same can be said about stories with no end to them. Many you claim the gener to be Hamster Wheels and want to move away from, instead creating another version of it. Regardless it's still going to be there.
And yet the market has thrived and grown immensely since WOW came and fixed all that was wrong with EQ.
WOW fixed nothing, it just made a game so simple people like you could play it. Which in turn lead to many people coming to other games and whining cause they were so "hard". The companies behind those other games saw how much ridiculous money was being made on WOW and nerfed their games so the WOW gamers would come and spend their money on other games. It worked to enough of a degree that now everyone makes an easy game to please the WOW type of player. Which leaves the original crowd out in the dark. I did not play EQ or UO when they came out, so I am not quite of that generation. I did, however, enjoy the challenge of harder/more challenging games. Games like Asheron's Call and Shadowbane for example. I recently played Rift and laughed out loud at how easy it was to level in that game.. in fact I leveled so fast I just blew past zones that, in harder games, I would have spent a lot of time in. Now it does boil down to what you want from a game, sadly it seems that today's gamer, or at least the majority of them, want a quick fix. My opinion.
You cannot just go back to old EQ or old DAOC. The version of the game most people talk about as being awesome no longer exists, ruined by the push to be more like WoW to make monies. Hell SWG doesn't even exist at all anymore, even in a crappy dumbed down version.
Anyone who tries to tell you to go back to EQ or DAOC if you liked it so much displays an immense ignorance that to me removes reading their posts from consideration as a valuable use of my time.
ColumbiaTrue do you still play EQ? If no, why not it seams like you enjoyed the game?
Answering this for myself, I am still playing EQ as I did enjoy it.
However, most new players are not going back and trying old games as they are satisfied with the new games coming out. So, EQs population has dropped and they are making it easier to solo because players are not able to group.
Of course, I have decided to still pay them because they have stated they plan to make EQ Next similar to the playstyle of EQ1, so therefore I will support them with my money through expansions and subscriptions just for the possibility of this.
I personally, believe the first game to come out and be more group oriented, while still offering many opportunities for soloers will exceed any MMO out now. The fact is many have not experienced the thrill the few of us did in earlier MMO's, but a new game would lead to many of these players to have that experience and they will likely understand our argument once they do get that first hand experience.
You telling me SOE is updating EQ and turning it into EQ Next with better graphics and other changes, but at the same time they making the game less difficult and more solo friendly ?
Or is Eq Next a whole new game based in the EQ universe? If that is the case SOE just went the way that will get them the most subscribers, and this is sadly a solo friendly environment.
Not to go off topic, but just answering.
EQ Next was announced to be a new game (title is undecided really) they said they would update the game and not follow the story of EQ1. But the play of the game would be more similar to that of EQ1. There is not much information out, but as I took it was they would be bringing back the similar gameplay of EQ1 but updating it, and as the game is 13 years old they will introduce some of the newer content into the game.
They are not updated EQ1 as this because as you can see many people are not willing to try an old game, but almost everybody is willing to try the new games.
Now that I got that previous post off my chest, I am going to say something that may be unexpected. Or maybe not. I kind of agree with the OP and I also kind of agree with the opinions of StoneRose as well. I think that between these two schools of thought, i.e. "New" and "Old" schools, There lies some sort of middleground. Perhaps the next blockbuster MMO will be one that takes the fundamentals and tried-and-true elements of the old school, and mixes it with new school elements that have come about since the release of WOW. It is always good to make progress for certain, But devs should not throw away or forget what has worked in the past. The genre has evolved this is for sure, and we should embrace new elements and mechanics when they improve the genre, and reject them when they detract from the experience. But we should all the while remember where we came from and never forget the elements that forged this genre and made people want to go exploring with their friends in the first place.
"As for being "too pro", or other such, thats nonsense. You simply want games that have different dynamics. Its too bad that such games aren't going to be developed any time soon. MMO's are simply a hobby to me. If/when they cease being entertaining, I'll move on to something else that is. I wish you the best of luck in finding a new hobby."
I agree with the OP and the general Old schoolers that the feeling of the mmo has made a turn. While reading the above highlighted part I beleave that more developers in the past had that type of mind set as they were making their games. The whole industry has made a change and there is an Illusion being cast over people. People in general IMO are not looking at games as a hobbist adventure or an art if you will, they don't want to make that next new game (some do sure), we rather just sit around and talk and wish that "they" will make this game for "us".
It's simply not going to happen in waiting, "WE" need to do it for ourselves if we want that game of which we are thinking about. A group of like minded programmers getting together to make a vision and a change, working as a hobby for what they truely want in a game and not expecting that someone else will do it for them. It can be done, it's not impossible.
But when we look to gaming companies to make the game "we" want it won't happen, in the past most companies were indy in a sense, just getting started, more of the garage groups and communities that made their own companies instead of joining someone else or looking to someone else instead of themselves.
"As for being "too pro", or other such, thats nonsense. You simply want games that have different dynamics. Its too bad that such games aren't going to be developed any time soon. MMO's are simply a hobby to me. If/when they cease being entertaining, I'll move on to something else that is. I wish you the best of luck in finding a new hobby."
I agree with the OP and the general Old schoolers that the feeling of the mmo has made a turn. While reading the above highlighted part I beleave that more developers in the past had that type of mind set as they were making their games. The whole industry has made a change and there is an Illusion being cast over people. People in general IMO are not looking at games as a hobbist adventure or an art if you will, they don't want to make that next new game (some do sure), we rather just sit around and talk and wish that "they" will make this game for "us".
It's simply not going to happen in waiting, "WE" need to do it for ourselves if we want that game of which we are thinking about. A group of like minded programmers getting together to make a vision and a change, working as a hobby for what they truely want in a game and not expecting that someone else will do it for them. It can be done, it's not impossible.
But when we look to gaming companies to make the game "we" want it won't happen, in the past most companies were indy in a sense, just getting started, more of the garage groups and communities that made their own companies instead of joining someone else or looking to someone else instead of themselves.
Or maybe, I'm just crazy, peace.
I am already trying to make my own game, with all sorts of old school new school and unique features. But its rough going.
I want to use NVidia PhysX and I can only do that with visual C++ for instance as opposed to a platform independent solution like codeblocks. Also my equipment is not too epic and overly large numbers of actors in a simulation make my computer cry and lag.
Still I push onward. Hopefully in a few years the game will be beta testable, although I am not sure. And even then some people may not try it because I haven't got the time or money to push for EvE or AoC level graphics and so forth.
I pray every day that a professional group of programmers will found a company and make an epic game and save me all the hassle.
Why this Old School EQ Gamer No Longer Plays MMORPGs
1. Group Dynamics: Discipline, Predictability, and Reward
Grouping has taken on a different life of its own: total and complete predictability. The mobs. The walkthrough. Even the rewards. The drops. Everything has been preplanned and even, literally, mapped out.
Seldom if ever is there a surprise in a group dungeon. It is usually instanced, and therefore your "community" cannot help (or hinder) you.
The whole predictable process becomes a boring chore to kill, collect, and obtain a predetermined item.
2. Community: Who Needs It?
There is a lack of a natural community in gaming. An interdependent community. We should depend on each other for items, grouping, exploring content, etc.
I will not even get into roleplaying that everyone used to participate in at least in some subtle ways, which really made gaming more immersive.
3. Adventure? Exploration?
One reason why I loved expansions in Everquest was the opportunity to explore new content, obtain new items, and encounter new mobs. The excitement of exploration that I used to experience in Everquest is lacking if not absent in today's MMORPGs.
4. Graphics Appear Cartoony, Childish
I prefer more "realism" in the game. Everything seems to be out of proportion in today's MMORPGs. Everything appears glittery, big, and gaudy - tryng to achieve a "cool" look that becomes a parody of itself.
It is all overdone.
5. Alternatives to an End Game
Crafting, ship building, house construction, player economies, and much more are alternatives to an end game that focuses on raiding. The end game so to speak is a raid game, which has devolved into a really big group or a zerg (not necessarily a raid).
Speaking of raiding, it can be made to be much more complex, challenging, and involved. Raiding should be in different forms: activities that take place across the span of the world to achieve the same objective.
So, I haven't read alot on this thread although not the entire thing. The truth of the matter in my opinion is that mmo gaming has completely changed, and not for the better if you ask me. EQ is the greatest mmo ever released for one simple reason, it promoted socializing and making friends. Taking away the downtime sounds great, but when people were sitting around talking because they had to med before they could fight again, they were making friends. Also, the grouping style completely changed with walking through. EQ groups never had to die because if someone left then you just shouted til you found a replacement. Great groups could level much faster as soloing was virtually impossible, but grouping was easier because you could keep the group going. Instances completely killed this aspect of mmorpg's. In my opinion a great game will never come back until someone reinstitutes a group setting where the group sits still and pulls to one spot and is accessible to find replacement players for the group. EQ was great because of the social aspect of the game that was necessary to play it.
Quantra Physix.......played too many games to count.
Actually this here is a really good point. Now that gaming is no longer a kids only endeavor (not that it ever was entirely, but moreso now than ever) since many kids from the 80's and 90's still play as adults, we have the situation of making a game intellectually stimulating for both youngish kids, older kids, young adults, and older adults. Very hard to please all of them. And very hard to make it intellectually stimulating for all of them.
Actually in the 1980s/90s *pc* gaming was close to an adults only environment, since very few young kids had access to a suitable pc in the first place, as they were very expensive. And further, since it was pretty tricky to configure a pc to run games at all, due to memory limitations, most players were techies of one sort or another. That's why a lot of older gamers have a background in programming and other IT related skills and are of above average intelligence /duck and run.
Haha, I laugh because you ask and answer in the same breath.
In point 5 you say, "The end game so to speak is a raid game, which has devolved into a really big group or a zerg (not necessarily a raid)."
The Dev's answer to this problem.
Everything has been preplanned and even, literally, mapped out.
There is a lack of a natural community in gaming.
Everything seems to be out of proportion in today's MMORPGs.
These are not meant to be afflictions but answers to players request for better game play. When everything is scripted out the party can come up with a Strategy and plan of attack, where everyone knows their role. When the dungeon is instanced, the first 20 man group doesn't have to contend with the second 10 man group that comes long and steels the Boss with the killing blow. Scientific research has shown that game graphics of a certain proportion and high contrast colour palette ( Cartoony ) are easy to see and identify, and pleasant to the brain. While realism is harsh, painful, and confusing. Crafting, ship building, house construction, and player economies are forms of interdependence and full fill the wants of Social Gamer Types.
What are you truly saying here. You want the group dynamics of call of Duty. You want the interdependence of Call of Duty. You want the exploration of Call of Duty. You want the realistic graphics of Call of Duty. You want the small group size of Call of Duty.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
And yet the market has thrived and grown immensely since WOW came and fixed all that was wrong with EQ.
WOW fixed nothing, it just made a game so simple people like you could play it. Which in turn lead to many people coming to other games and whining cause they were so "hard". The companies behind those other games saw how much ridiculous money was being made on WOW and nerfed their games so the WOW gamers would come and spend their money on other games. It worked to enough of a degree that now everyone makes an easy game to please the WOW type of player. Which leaves the original crowd out in the dark. I did not play EQ or UO when they came out, so I am not quite of that generation. I did, however, enjoy the challenge of harder/more challenging games. Games like Asheron's Call and Shadowbane for example. I recently played Rift and laughed out loud at how easy it was to level in that game.. in fact I leveled so fast I just blew past zones that, in harder games, I would have spent a lot of time in. Now it does boil down to what you want from a game, sadly it seems that today's gamer, or at least the majority of them, want a quick fix. My opinion.
Yep. I beta tested RIFT during the 4th phase (notice I said tested and not played as many who get into betas sadly do instead of what they were allowed into it to do...test). Even in testing I was able to climb to level 38 and see all but 4 zones during that phase. The rifts were fun...at first...but soon I saw they were nearly all the same, with only slight differences...which made them become bland rather fast. (Surprisingly I didn't find near the bugs I did in Vanguard (Another good game doomed by a bad release).
Just recently tried Rift again due to being free to level 20. Made it to level 4 before I again lost interest because ....well...it is the same as any other number of games out today. Nothing new, innovative...or just simply refreshingly different to keep my interest.
An open world with no quests...at least none that are obvious with big ridiculous ?'s over their heads. Let the player talk to NPC's and discover hidden quests. No in-game GPS showing you were to go, what to do, who to talk to. Give subtle hints...make the player think and figure things out. Meaningful crafting...which means degradeable equipment to bolster crafting and the economy...focus on the journey, not the destination, no making the player the hero...let the player's actions decide their reputation within the community, and random world events.
Why can there not be the ability to change the game world? Volcanoes, earthquakes, etc changing the landscape... possibly a town being over run by a goblin army, etc and becoming a haven for undesireables until reacquired by players efforts, or NPC armies efforts, etc, etc.
With the technology available today...these things should be possible. But companies don't seem to bother putting out that extra effort and cash if players these days are content with sub-par rat race, gear essentric games they keep putting out in droves and paying for them. Sure, some complain....but they are still paying for them...or trying to next one without researching first. Vicious cycle of mediocrity.
Yep. I beta tested RIFT during the 4th phase (notice I said tested and not played as many who get into betas sadly do instead of what they were allowed into it to do...test). Even in testing I was able to climb to level 38 and see all but 4 zones during that phase. The rifts were fun...at first...but soon I saw they were nearly all the same, with only slight differences...which made them become bland rather fast. (Surprisingly I didn't find near the bugs I did in Vanguard (Another good game doomed by a bad release).
Just recently tried it again due to being free to level 20. Made it to level 4 before I again lost interest because ....well...it is the same as any other number of games out today. Nothing new, innovative...or just simply refreshingly different to keep my interest.
An open world with no quests...at least none that are obvious with big ridiculous ?'s over their heads. Let the player talk to NPC's and discover hidden quests. No in-game GPS showing you were to go, what to do, who to talk to. Give subtle hints...make the player think and figure things out. Meaningful crafting...which means degradeable equipment to bolster crafting and the economy...focus on the journey, not the destination, no making the player the hero...let the player's actions decide their reputation within the community, and random world events.
Why can there not be the ability to change the game world? Volcanoes, earthquakes, etc changing the landscape... possibly a tonw beign over run by a goblin army, etc and becoming a haven for undesireables until reacquired by players efforts, or NPC armies efforts, etc, etc.
With the technology available today...these things should be possible. But companies don't seem to bother putting out that extra effort and cash if players these days are content with sub-par rat race, gear essentric games they keep putting out in droves and paying for them. Sure, some complain....but they are still paying for them...or trying to next one without researchign first. Vicious cycle of mediocrity.
I agree. I remember not having maps or compass, and just having to know if I run a certain way from a point I am familiar with I will know if I get lost, running the opposite way back will bring me to somewhere I do know until I know the area in general.
It would be very neat if the game world changed and the game (players and mobs) would react differently to the changes. I guess this is kind of what I like about PvP games because to a smaller extent (player based only really) the world changes, what may have been safe at one point, may now be KoS. Having dynamic events occur because of the changes would be great.
I could not agree more OP. The issue we have is the same throughout the world except reverse. We are the 1%'ers trying to fight/change the 99%'ers who want it all now for as little effort as humanly possible and the developers are handing them what they want greedily.
The developers are not making MMO's to be challenging, realistic, hard, long, etc. anymore because they could care less if you actually play it or not, they simply want you to maintain your subscription. They have found out it's much better to have 500k casual players than log in once a week than it is to have 100k players who play 12 hours a day.
Risk vs Reward is a thing of the past sense WOW found out you can dumb the game down, toss in a bunch of shinny items and make $$$$. The rest of the gaming industry wants their slice of the WOW pie so they just clone what works, dress it up in different clothes and pass it off as the Next Generation in MMO Gaming. When in reality it's just a clone and the idiots who play today eat it up without even chewing. Then if you point out how easy, boring, non-challenging it is they spit out sarcastic remarks to you because honestly they have no damn clue what you're talking about because they never played the old EQ and have NO clue what a real community is, risk vs reward is etc. They simply don't want to have to work for a goal they just want it handed to them on a plate so they can play dress-up.
One day maybe a good developer will take what EQ was before the days of Planes of Power and modernize it and release it. It would be so nice to have what EQ was again.
One day maybe a good developer will take what EQ was before the days of Planes of Power and modernize it and release it. It would be so nice to have what EQ was again.
Well SOE is developing EQ Next which is suppose to give the feel of EQ gameplay just updated. Of course, I am sure it will not be quite the same nor feel as good, but I think it can come close. For example, I believe stuff such as PoP and after that made the game a bit easier will be implemented. I do not hate that. I played earlier when I spent hours traveling to get to my next leveling area. I did enjoy both. In reality, I just want that overall gameplay style to come back and I am willing to wait and hopeful they do follow through with the productions. That is why I am still currently subscribed to EQ, even though I do not play it much any more, I will support them just for the possibility this game is released.
With PoP they made it less time require to travel, but IMO the raiding in PoP was very fun for me. This was about the time I became a hardcore raider and not just a casual raider. I remember killing the bosses to flag people to move on, going back to flag those who missed, going back to gear up because we cannot progress. I remember forming guild groups to grind out AA's just to be more prepared for the next attempts. Overall, I though EQ did a great job evolving the game to suit the needs, unfortunately populations declined and they had to resort to making the game more soloable because it is all people can do when there are 2 people in a zone.
Actually this here is a really good point. Now that gaming is no longer a kids only endeavor (not that it ever was entirely, but moreso now than ever) since many kids from the 80's and 90's still play as adults, we have the situation of making a game intellectually stimulating for both youngish kids, older kids, young adults, and older adults. Very hard to please all of them. And very hard to make it intellectually stimulating for all of them.
Actually in the 1980s/90s *pc* gaming was close to an adults only environment, since very few young kids had access to a suitable pc in the first place, as they were very expensive. And further, since it was pretty tricky to configure a pc to run games at all, due to memory limitations, most players were techies of one sort or another. That's why a lot of older gamers have a background in programming and other IT related skills.
Great point Roqoco! I happen to be one of those "old-school" pc gamers myself and am an IT. In the beginning MMO's certainly were for enthusiasts mostly and not as much handholding was going on as we see in many titles today. I agree with Gainesvilleg as well on the point that it is a difficult and sometimes near impossible challenge to appeal to all types and demographics equally in an MMO, And is also why I think it is a waste of time to attempt universal appeal. In my opinion, Devs and Pubs should pick their audience or audiences and not try to tailor everything in their game to every kind of player. But of course, This is just my opinion.
In my experience, "old school EQ gamers" are the ones who tend to enjoy the F2P games most and are actually willing to only play for free and farm all of the shit...
Meaning they don't support the developers enough to make it worth appealing to them.
Plus, there are just far too few EQ old school gamers to be profitable anymore...
Comments
And yet the market has thrived and grown immensely since WOW came and fixed all that was wrong with EQ.
The same can be said about stories with no end to them. Many you claim the gener to be Hamster Wheels and want to move away from, instead creating another version of it. Regardless it's still going to be there.
Good. I enjoy hearing these kinds of insights and also agree completely with what he said.
I also enjoy reading about games being developed that I don't intend to play because I enjoy that side of the game world as well. Is that OK with you?
You can't come to an MMO discussion forum and not expect to hear about all sides of the coin, that's just naive. His post *is* related to MMOs and very apt, but you probably didn't read it.
It was actually a lot more insightful and enjoyable than your contribution, if you want something to consider.
They did not fix what was wrong. They just simply introduced the game to many more people. More advertising. Not to downgrade WoW or anything, but to me WoW looked like a game for children to me. And it obviously worked, it introduced MMO's to many children, teenagers and adults. The problem is that people are not willing to try anything else before they shoot it down.
People have made their opinions based on what they like.
So, to me somebody who has experience all genres, their opinion hold more valid to me than someone who simply had only played one type and strictly believes that this type is the only way to go. People are making decisions on what they like before experiencing other options. That is why you see many of us who have experience others and prefer previous content compared to new content complaining.
Actually, many who started with WoW are beginning to complain because every game believes that their success is the only way to be successful. But WoW themselves proved differently, when they changed MMO's and people liked that. Maybe, a combination of both is the answer? Or maybe a whole new genre is the answer...
You telling me SOE is updating EQ and turning it into EQ Next with better graphics and other changes, but at the same time they making the game less difficult and more solo friendly ?
Or is Eq Next a whole new game based in the EQ universe? If that is the case SOE just went the way that will get them the most subscribers, and this is sadly a solo friendly environment.
MMORPG Forums: You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.
Fixed? Really? They dumbed down the formula to appeal to more people - does that imply depth & quality too?
So, now we have more people buying rehashed clones over and over because they're content with rubbish.
Yeah, huge improvement
No thanks. I'll take smaller, less popular and engaging over dumbed down trash designed for 4 year olds.
You didn't support that at all.
WOW fixed nothing, it just made a game so simple people like you could play it. Which in turn lead to many people coming to other games and whining cause they were so "hard". The companies behind those other games saw how much ridiculous money was being made on WOW and nerfed their games so the WOW gamers would come and spend their money on other games. It worked to enough of a degree that now everyone makes an easy game to please the WOW type of player. Which leaves the original crowd out in the dark. I did not play EQ or UO when they came out, so I am not quite of that generation. I did, however, enjoy the challenge of harder/more challenging games. Games like Asheron's Call and Shadowbane for example. I recently played Rift and laughed out loud at how easy it was to level in that game.. in fact I leveled so fast I just blew past zones that, in harder games, I would have spent a lot of time in. Now it does boil down to what you want from a game, sadly it seems that today's gamer, or at least the majority of them, want a quick fix. My opinion.
Currently bored with MMO's.
You cannot just go back to old EQ or old DAOC. The version of the game most people talk about as being awesome no longer exists, ruined by the push to be more like WoW to make monies. Hell SWG doesn't even exist at all anymore, even in a crappy dumbed down version.
Anyone who tries to tell you to go back to EQ or DAOC if you liked it so much displays an immense ignorance that to me removes reading their posts from consideration as a valuable use of my time.
Not to go off topic, but just answering.
EQ Next was announced to be a new game (title is undecided really) they said they would update the game and not follow the story of EQ1. But the play of the game would be more similar to that of EQ1. There is not much information out, but as I took it was they would be bringing back the similar gameplay of EQ1 but updating it, and as the game is 13 years old they will introduce some of the newer content into the game.
They are not updated EQ1 as this because as you can see many people are not willing to try an old game, but almost everybody is willing to try the new games.
Now that I got that previous post off my chest, I am going to say something that may be unexpected. Or maybe not. I kind of agree with the OP and I also kind of agree with the opinions of StoneRose as well. I think that between these two schools of thought, i.e. "New" and "Old" schools, There lies some sort of middleground. Perhaps the next blockbuster MMO will be one that takes the fundamentals and tried-and-true elements of the old school, and mixes it with new school elements that have come about since the release of WOW. It is always good to make progress for certain, But devs should not throw away or forget what has worked in the past. The genre has evolved this is for sure, and we should embrace new elements and mechanics when they improve the genre, and reject them when they detract from the experience. But we should all the while remember where we came from and never forget the elements that forged this genre and made people want to go exploring with their friends in the first place.
"As for being "too pro", or other such, thats nonsense. You simply want games that have different dynamics. Its too bad that such games aren't going to be developed any time soon. MMO's are simply a hobby to me. If/when they cease being entertaining, I'll move on to something else that is. I wish you the best of luck in finding a new hobby."
I agree with the OP and the general Old schoolers that the feeling of the mmo has made a turn. While reading the above highlighted part I beleave that more developers in the past had that type of mind set as they were making their games. The whole industry has made a change and there is an Illusion being cast over people. People in general IMO are not looking at games as a hobbist adventure or an art if you will, they don't want to make that next new game (some do sure), we rather just sit around and talk and wish that "they" will make this game for "us".
It's simply not going to happen in waiting, "WE" need to do it for ourselves if we want that game of which we are thinking about. A group of like minded programmers getting together to make a vision and a change, working as a hobby for what they truely want in a game and not expecting that someone else will do it for them. It can be done, it's not impossible.
But when we look to gaming companies to make the game "we" want it won't happen, in the past most companies were indy in a sense, just getting started, more of the garage groups and communities that made their own companies instead of joining someone else or looking to someone else instead of themselves.
Or maybe, I'm just crazy, peace.
WOW
StoneRoses
was the only troll on this thread and he still hasn't STFU
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EQ never had a great community. Just a bunch of stealing killing brats that later went to WoW, and bred their antisocial ways.
Alternative to an end game? Are you sure you should be mentioning EQ?
Sorry, I think you are way off base, and I think WoW was a worthy successor to EQ for the type of people who enjoyed EQ's raiding.
Should have been around DAoC if you wanted to know what a real community, and what real alternatives were.
I am already trying to make my own game, with all sorts of old school new school and unique features. But its rough going.
I want to use NVidia PhysX and I can only do that with visual C++ for instance as opposed to a platform independent solution like codeblocks. Also my equipment is not too epic and overly large numbers of actors in a simulation make my computer cry and lag.
Still I push onward. Hopefully in a few years the game will be beta testable, although I am not sure. And even then some people may not try it because I haven't got the time or money to push for EvE or AoC level graphics and so forth.
I pray every day that a professional group of programmers will found a company and make an epic game and save me all the hassle.
see ya at the next AAA MMORPG launch =P
So, I haven't read alot on this thread although not the entire thing. The truth of the matter in my opinion is that mmo gaming has completely changed, and not for the better if you ask me. EQ is the greatest mmo ever released for one simple reason, it promoted socializing and making friends. Taking away the downtime sounds great, but when people were sitting around talking because they had to med before they could fight again, they were making friends. Also, the grouping style completely changed with walking through. EQ groups never had to die because if someone left then you just shouted til you found a replacement. Great groups could level much faster as soloing was virtually impossible, but grouping was easier because you could keep the group going. Instances completely killed this aspect of mmorpg's. In my opinion a great game will never come back until someone reinstitutes a group setting where the group sits still and pulls to one spot and is accessible to find replacement players for the group. EQ was great because of the social aspect of the game that was necessary to play it.
Quantra Physix.......played too many games to count.
Actually in the 1980s/90s *pc* gaming was close to an adults only environment, since very few young kids had access to a suitable pc in the first place, as they were very expensive. And further, since it was pretty tricky to configure a pc to run games at all, due to memory limitations, most players were techies of one sort or another. That's why a lot of older gamers have a background in programming and other IT related skills and are of above average intelligence /duck and run.
Haha, I laugh because you ask and answer in the same breath.
In point 5 you say, "The end game so to speak is a raid game, which has devolved into a really big group or a zerg (not necessarily a raid)."
The Dev's answer to this problem.
Everything has been preplanned and even, literally, mapped out.
There is a lack of a natural community in gaming.
Everything seems to be out of proportion in today's MMORPGs.
These are not meant to be afflictions but answers to players request for better game play. When everything is scripted out the party can come up with a Strategy and plan of attack, where everyone knows their role. When the dungeon is instanced, the first 20 man group doesn't have to contend with the second 10 man group that comes long and steels the Boss with the killing blow. Scientific research has shown that game graphics of a certain proportion and high contrast colour palette ( Cartoony ) are easy to see and identify, and pleasant to the brain. While realism is harsh, painful, and confusing. Crafting, ship building, house construction, and player economies are forms of interdependence and full fill the wants of Social Gamer Types.
What are you truly saying here. You want the group dynamics of call of Duty. You want the interdependence of Call of Duty. You want the exploration of Call of Duty. You want the realistic graphics of Call of Duty. You want the small group size of Call of Duty.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Yep. I beta tested RIFT during the 4th phase (notice I said tested and not played as many who get into betas sadly do instead of what they were allowed into it to do...test). Even in testing I was able to climb to level 38 and see all but 4 zones during that phase. The rifts were fun...at first...but soon I saw they were nearly all the same, with only slight differences...which made them become bland rather fast. (Surprisingly I didn't find near the bugs I did in Vanguard (Another good game doomed by a bad release).
Just recently tried Rift again due to being free to level 20. Made it to level 4 before I again lost interest because ....well...it is the same as any other number of games out today. Nothing new, innovative...or just simply refreshingly different to keep my interest.
An open world with no quests...at least none that are obvious with big ridiculous ?'s over their heads. Let the player talk to NPC's and discover hidden quests. No in-game GPS showing you were to go, what to do, who to talk to. Give subtle hints...make the player think and figure things out. Meaningful crafting...which means degradeable equipment to bolster crafting and the economy...focus on the journey, not the destination, no making the player the hero...let the player's actions decide their reputation within the community, and random world events.
Why can there not be the ability to change the game world? Volcanoes, earthquakes, etc changing the landscape... possibly a town being over run by a goblin army, etc and becoming a haven for undesireables until reacquired by players efforts, or NPC armies efforts, etc, etc.
With the technology available today...these things should be possible. But companies don't seem to bother putting out that extra effort and cash if players these days are content with sub-par rat race, gear essentric games they keep putting out in droves and paying for them. Sure, some complain....but they are still paying for them...or trying to next one without researching first. Vicious cycle of mediocrity.
I agree. I remember not having maps or compass, and just having to know if I run a certain way from a point I am familiar with I will know if I get lost, running the opposite way back will bring me to somewhere I do know until I know the area in general.
It would be very neat if the game world changed and the game (players and mobs) would react differently to the changes. I guess this is kind of what I like about PvP games because to a smaller extent (player based only really) the world changes, what may have been safe at one point, may now be KoS. Having dynamic events occur because of the changes would be great.
I could not agree more OP. The issue we have is the same throughout the world except reverse. We are the 1%'ers trying to fight/change the 99%'ers who want it all now for as little effort as humanly possible and the developers are handing them what they want greedily.
The developers are not making MMO's to be challenging, realistic, hard, long, etc. anymore because they could care less if you actually play it or not, they simply want you to maintain your subscription. They have found out it's much better to have 500k casual players than log in once a week than it is to have 100k players who play 12 hours a day.
Risk vs Reward is a thing of the past sense WOW found out you can dumb the game down, toss in a bunch of shinny items and make $$$$. The rest of the gaming industry wants their slice of the WOW pie so they just clone what works, dress it up in different clothes and pass it off as the Next Generation in MMO Gaming. When in reality it's just a clone and the idiots who play today eat it up without even chewing. Then if you point out how easy, boring, non-challenging it is they spit out sarcastic remarks to you because honestly they have no damn clue what you're talking about because they never played the old EQ and have NO clue what a real community is, risk vs reward is etc. They simply don't want to have to work for a goal they just want it handed to them on a plate so they can play dress-up.
One day maybe a good developer will take what EQ was before the days of Planes of Power and modernize it and release it. It would be so nice to have what EQ was again.
Well SOE is developing EQ Next which is suppose to give the feel of EQ gameplay just updated. Of course, I am sure it will not be quite the same nor feel as good, but I think it can come close. For example, I believe stuff such as PoP and after that made the game a bit easier will be implemented. I do not hate that. I played earlier when I spent hours traveling to get to my next leveling area. I did enjoy both. In reality, I just want that overall gameplay style to come back and I am willing to wait and hopeful they do follow through with the productions. That is why I am still currently subscribed to EQ, even though I do not play it much any more, I will support them just for the possibility this game is released.
With PoP they made it less time require to travel, but IMO the raiding in PoP was very fun for me. This was about the time I became a hardcore raider and not just a casual raider. I remember killing the bosses to flag people to move on, going back to flag those who missed, going back to gear up because we cannot progress. I remember forming guild groups to grind out AA's just to be more prepared for the next attempts. Overall, I though EQ did a great job evolving the game to suit the needs, unfortunately populations declined and they had to resort to making the game more soloable because it is all people can do when there are 2 people in a zone.
Great point Roqoco! I happen to be one of those "old-school" pc gamers myself and am an IT. In the beginning MMO's certainly were for enthusiasts mostly and not as much handholding was going on as we see in many titles today. I agree with Gainesvilleg as well on the point that it is a difficult and sometimes near impossible challenge to appeal to all types and demographics equally in an MMO, And is also why I think it is a waste of time to attempt universal appeal. In my opinion, Devs and Pubs should pick their audience or audiences and not try to tailor everything in their game to every kind of player. But of course, This is just my opinion.
In my experience, "old school EQ gamers" are the ones who tend to enjoy the F2P games most and are actually willing to only play for free and farm all of the shit...
Meaning they don't support the developers enough to make it worth appealing to them.
Plus, there are just far too few EQ old school gamers to be profitable anymore...