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Thief + Mesmer = own all?
ellobo29
Member UncommonPosts: 423
After watching every gw2 video i come across, one thing seems to keep bothering me. Its all ways the thief or mes getting all the kills in pvp.
The game (just from watching these videos) seem kinda unbalenced that way.
Has anyone who have played have thoughts on this?
In pvp it seems ranger is just logistics and support. necro has lots of survivability but dps is meh. I only seem a couple of elementalist pvp vids so not sure what to think on that yet. engneer is supportish. i havent seen any pvp with guardian as the main.
But the people you got to stay clear from on the killing fields are the thief and mesmer. Im not sure how i feel about that.
If you want kills that seems to be the way to go?
Comments
Everyone can spec into damage or support. I have seen vids of good players from other professions killing thieves and mesmers.
Those two classes also have the lowest HP i beleive aswell so it wouldnt surprise me there dmg output a little higher. They also disapear and reapear/clones and all that so its also posible that they dont get hit as often so they can dish out more of the dmg since the warriors or other melee are taking the hits instead. Without acualy playing the game i can only speculate on things. Also i havant watched to many videos because i dont want to much of the game revealed to me before i get to play it although i have watch some.
The Thief has the lowest HP, the Mesmer has average HP:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/difference-between-level-80-health-t29259.html
People in the beta were not good players so it's difficult to judge balance based on their performance. Besides, because it's beta numbers can and will change.
I'm waiting until the Koreans get there hands on the game's beta, before I can declare which profession is OP in PvP.
getting the kills? as in the last hit?
mesmer is in GW1 at least is a support + cc class and i dont think thats going to change for GW2...
theif on the other hand might be a burst dps class (as assassin in GW1) and can probably do a lot of dmg iin a sort time but in a team battle i dont think they will be op...
I forsee Nerf patch incoming.
MAGA
I have some insight on this subject as I had a chance to play GW2 at PAX last year and have watched hours of gameplay videos from the press beta.
The observations below are not taking any traits into consideration.
1. Thiefs definitely are strong, if the person playing them has some skill. But so is just about every class.
2. The Mesmer is one of the worst classes in it's current state, in my opinion. While their clone abilities are interesting, the class is far too reliant on them currently. They die in 1 hit from anything and, being a main source of damage for the Mesmer, the recharge times are too long. I would personally like to see the clones made less fragile rather than reducing the cooldown. Mesmer is a micro-managed class enough already. In PvP the clones are easy to spot after a few encounters with a Mesmer. They do not act like players at all, the AI for them is horrible so it's easy to make sure you don't waste good attacks taking them out.
Their teleport skill, which sounds awesome, appears to be bugged currently and does not last for the 60 seconds it is supposed to, so this would add a lot to the confusion the class can bring to fights once that gets fixed.
2. Every class has counters and situational abilities that can change the course of a 1 vs 1 fight.
3. There aren't very many 1 vs 1 fights. In the 5 vs 5 matches it was almost always group vs gropu, or at least 2 vs 2. Rarely were there 1 vs 1 fights that would last until completion, someone almost always would come across the fight and join in. Having said that, I haven't seen any class that seems OP when player skill is taken in to consideration.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Besides clones there are also Phantasms, which do have more health and cause more damage.
The clones do not act like the Mesmer, but the Mesmer can act like the clones.
Necro(Plague) + Guardian(Wrath). Get access to every Boon except Quickness and access to all Condition except Confusion.
Well if judge survivablity based on Hp/armor, then the theif and mesmer are on the same level. The classes with the low hp should have offensive/defensive skills to make up for it. GW2 is in beta, so everyones dps is subject to change. All of the traits are not out and they are testing multiple builds for balance. For all of the information in the press beta and the mesmer is a very popular profession to play.
I actually think the fragile state of the clones is a good thing. Using this tool http://gw2.luna-atra.fr/skills_tool/?lang=en I have made a build that I think will be quite useful.
With each clone I give myself a power buff, toughness buff and a speed buff, but when those clones are killed they apply a cripple and a random condition. This means I am stronger for each clone I have but also discourage my opponent from killing my clones. Kind of a mind game of sorts.
Just to throw in my 2 cents
A dev post talked about the fragility of the mesmer clones and internal testing. The dev was saying that the good mesmer player on Arenanet staff had started pretending to be a clone.
This is very similiar to League of Legends moneky king who can clone himself. Often good Monkey king players will hit S (stop) to trick you into thinking they cloned themselves when actually they just stopped moving.
I'm not saying though the clones seem somewhat useless, BUT I think we may be able to learn how to trick our opponents.
Then again a few good aoe's in a tight room and GG.
One thing I will observe is that the mesmer is a kiting class and will excel in outdoor areas with room to move and spread out the clones.
I was noticing that mesmers that keep their clones spread out do better.
In my opinion, Mesmer and Warrior are the 2 top classes in structured PvP at this moment, followed VERY closely by Elementalist.
Mesmer:
People talk about the clones/phantasms being fragile but somewhat forget that they're there to be shattered for CC/damage/debuffs.
It's an incredibly powerfull hability that somehow people don't take into consideration...Mesmers have on demand stuns/cripples and stealth, while debuffing and continuosly damaging their opponents.
The level of control a mesmer has in any fight is incredible, you can continuosly pop in and out of stealh every 10 to 15 seconds, while debuffing and adding clones/phantasms to ensure more CC or damage on the fly.
Somewhat mesmer is the one class that makes me fear for structured pvp since the more mesmers you have in a team the more clones/phantasms spam is possible, chaining shatters seems really overpowered.
Warrior:
Really mobile, alot of great and straight to the point talents, the aoe swings help alot!
Add a nice health pool, great self buffs and high burst you have an amazing pvp class.
Elementalist:
So much damage, so many options, so many pets, so much of everything.
They lack a good hp pool but they have such mobility that it easily makes up for it.
If you want kills the thief or the warrior is your best bet. Mesmer... not so much. The reason is that the thief can use all their initiative at once to spike high. The warrior can spike high when he can close or use rage signet with his rifle's adrenal to hit for nutter damage.
In addition... some classes are hard to spike to death or just plain resistant to death (defensive guardians, any necro).
not really, i don't follow pvp much but the videos i've seen did include some good combos like Warrior, Engineer and Elementalist, Guardian seem to be a good combo. It's not all imbalanced it's more that people who are playing these pvp classes in these videos really aren't used to the game for the most part and those that have thought things out tend to dominate. I have noticed Zerging tho.
The game is just going to beta, that it is unbalanced right now is a given. Heck, Wow is still unbalanced and it is 7 1/2 years old.
The beta tests will probably help a lot but it will still take a while after launch before the balance gets just right. Nothing to worry about though, ANET have guy who spends his whole workday watching PvP games and suggesting balancing and nerfs.
They will get it right after a while.
Actually I think the best PVP combo right now is sword/warhorn/hammer warrior and dagger/dagger elementalist. Those two can spike down anyone real fast without giving up too much utility.
The thief and mesmer can dance all they want. Once they decide to try to attach they'll be stun/knockdown locked that they won't be able to stealth and then die real fast.
If you watch the mesmer and the necro pvp vids by the Taprepeatedly, you'll notice that when he died it was because of those two.
Well first, we all have to remember that numbers can and will change before launch. And they will continue to change even after launch. It won't be until the game has been out for a while, and thousands of players have had time to play through and test certain builds that good balance can be acheived.
Second, that's the point of the mesmer. Even in GW1, a truly skilled mesmer could control the battlefield. I remember fighting against these things and they pissed me off to no end. If you didn't take out the mesmer that was attacking your monk(s), you would probably lose. And if you were playing against a mesmer who was specced to counter your build (anti-melee, anti-caster), it would be extremely difficult to take them on head-to-head.
It seems like that again the GW2. I'm actually really happy they seem to have kept the spirit of the mesmer: the ability to manipulate and control the battlefield in the hands of skilled players. The mesmer actually seems like one of the more difficult classes to learn in GW2, just like in GW1.
From what I had gathered, currently a warrior with a greatsword and a ranger with a longbow are what you need to keep away from. The greatsword warrior just does tons of damage and has a large amount of health to back that up. The ranger has pets that by themselves do a ton of damage and with the longbow that does more damage the further away you are, they can most certainly kill you quickly. I see thiefs/mesmers as being a classes that if you know how to counter them they die very easily, Say stun and theif and watch him drop due to having lower health/armor. Or AOE a mesmer and remove all his clones.
Remember that WvW pvp is different from the 5v5's. A longbow ranger in WvW probably has a bigger chance at staying max range there, where in say that clocktower 5v5 it's a bit cramped. I think things are a lot more balanced than they appear and it really depends on fleshing out your build to suit what type of PvP you are doing. Each class will be hard to deal with if built and played correctly/
BS:
The most overpowered pvp class is clearly the Norn Engineer... they turn into frakin bears!!!! NOTHING beats a bear that crap landmines and shoots with a rifle...NOTHING!
Speculation on what class is op from preview weekend events with players that have little idea what their doing and most likely haven't even been able to set their own keybinds, skill layouts or gear is silly.
If an Engie knows how to use their turrets, mines, and flamethrower properly, they'd absolutely decimate a Mesmer and Thief combo. Things in GW2 come down to skill - and what you're seeing is that the Mesmer and the Thief are what we consider 'EZ Mode' professions, much like the Warrior is. They're just easy to play.
Once people have figured out the nuances of the more complex classes, things will even out.
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For those who have trouble figuring out why I made the Engie comment - it is biased, yes. Of course it is. But it also has a basis in truth. Think about it. If you're doing massive amounts of AoE damage with a flamethrower, mines, and a missile turret, you won't exactly need to see where people are, you'll just decimate seven shades out of them anyway.
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Oh, I have a good analogy! The Pyro in TF2 versus the Spy.
Think about it.
If I run past an area where I think someone is, blasting with my flamethrower, it doesn't matter how invisible you think you are because you're now on fire.
In PvP I'd always bet on a warrior who knows what he's doing. At the moment it seems like the best all-around sturdy class able to dish out decent damage and has a trick or two up his sleeve.
Mesmers and thieves seem like one-trick ponys to me. Unless they manage to cook their opponent in the first few seconds they've got nowhere to run. A cool-headed warrior is still my favorite.
@Plinkplonk
The Engie is still mine due to the vast array of stuff they have available to them (plus they're essentially the Pyro in flamethrower mode, and I'm a Pyro guy). But it's like I said, in GW2 you don't need direct contact to do damage, so if I'm combing an area with flame via a flamethrower and a Thief or Mesmer is sneaking around feeling all assured about how no one can see them...
Well, they're going to end up as a pile of ash on the ground. Simple as. All you need to do to properly counter a Mesmer or a Thief is correctly utilise AoE damage. Whenever I've seen someone smite a Thief or Mesmer in PvP, it's been done that way. Just keep a cool head and coat teh nearby area in outright damage.
My tavourite method for doing this will be the flamethrower, yours will be the greatsword I expect, but whatever floats your boat. It all gets results. The reason that the Mesmer and Thief are enjoying these successes is because, at the moment, people are still thinking of this like a traditional MMO and they're not scanning for hidden people.