I just want to know what the sandbox elements are, that people are claiming were in the game. The closest sandbox feature it had were open dungeons.
Everyone in the thread that has said sandbox has said so without a reason.
That's ok you can flip the same reasoning on it's head and claim every game is a themepark, as many have for various games commonly considered sandboxes.. That's because there is no such thing as a sandbox "element." A sandbox game has a nonlinear gameplay mode. That's the actual definition although people try to throw all sorts oif things in to support their agendas. People will argue that in circles for hours instead of asking the real question: How linear was DAOC? It was pretty linear. Ultima Online was linear too, just not nearly as much. Any game with any character progression is at least a bit linear. Other MMOs have been a lot more linear.
Ok, so I guess then we can call WoW a sandbox also since it has different spec branches, and a choice of areas to level.
There are sandbox elements to games. Open ended skill progression... that's an element. That's more of a programming term though, if you like you can call it a sandbox feature.
I wouldn't define it as either, from a long time mmoer perspective. I wouldn't really define any of the earlier mmos, since so many of them were mostly open worlds where you would pretty much grind for everything you wanted. Crafting Grind, Leveling Grind, PvP Rank Grind. Maybe we should call them Grinders :P
With that being said, I remember DAoC as being the mmo that got me into PvP. A game that I loved and hated, but left me with many fond memories.
I just want to know what the sandbox elements are, that people are claiming were in the game. The closest sandbox feature it had were open dungeons.
Everyone in the thread that has said sandbox has said so without a reason.
That's ok you can flip the same reasoning on it's head and claim every game is a themepark, as many have for various games commonly considered sandboxes.. That's because there is no such thing as a sandbox "element." A sandbox game has a nonlinear gameplay mode. That's the actual definition although people try to throw all sorts oif things in to support their agendas. People will argue that in circles for hours instead of asking the real question: How linear was DAOC? It was pretty linear. Ultima Online was linear too, just not nearly as much. Any game with any character progression is at least a bit linear. Other MMOs have been a lot more linear.
Ok, so I guess then we can call WoW a sandbox also since it has different spec branches, and a choice of areas to level.
There are sandbox elements to games. Open ended skill progression... that's an element. That's more of a programming term though, if you like you can call it a sandbox feature.
You can. You'd be right too. What you can't say is WoW is less lnear than DAOC because WoW is much more linear. It's not particular features that matter it's the overall gameplay. No single feature or set of features defines what is or isn't a sandbox. It's not a binary question it's a matter of degrees.
It can be a binary question, for instance if game a has all linear features, then it is themepark. If game b has all sandbox features, it's sandbox.
Calling a game that has more themepark features than sandbox features a sandbox just doesn't make sense.
To me, "Open World" is a Persistent World & Seamless World.
But all MMO have Persistent World. But many Themepark MMO have Seamless worlds. Even WoW has that.
Skyrim is called a Sandbox, but why? The world is just as open and seamless as WoW is. Where the sandbox come from?
The main reason Skyrim is called a sandbox is because there is no set path that the player must follow to progress... For instance, I can go to any dungeon I want once I finish the intro area. Also, you can skillup your character any way you want.
Whereas in games like WoW, there is no way I can enter some areas, or dungeons unless I'm a certain level.
Just came up with this question in my head its friday night and I have a glass of wine, yes this is how geeks party.
In daoc I did not follow quest paths, from a low level it was about finding a group and grinding up mobs at various patches with people. You could build your own house and RvR was an open ended pvp situation.
Let me know what you think.
It was mainly a themepark, but it had some virtual worlds influences.
Agreed.
That said, the combination of DAoC's territorial gameplay, three faction system, and diversity in endgame rewards (personal, group, faction) made for a solid foundation for the politics and epic field battles (large and small) that it's famous for. In the absence of tools for sandbox gameplay, it provided an environment that fostered a good amount of the diplomacy, metagaming and emergent behaviour that sandbox games are known for.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
To me, "Open World" is a Persistent World & Seamless World.
But all MMO have Persistent World. But many Themepark MMO have Seamless worlds. Even WoW has that.
Skyrim is called a Sandbox, but why? The world is just as open and seamless as WoW is. Where the sandbox come from?
Open world = zoneless world, doesnt necessarily mean seamless. Even though WoW was seemless it still had specific zones situated for a particular level.
DAoC IMO was a sandbox because for me the 2 main criteria for determining if an MMO is sandbox or not is 1. linear progression i.e. being "breadcrumbed" along a specific path doesnt matter if there are multiple paths or not. And 2. focus is on things to do at level cap or more commonly referred to as "end game".
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It isn't a sandbox game. The game isn't free form like UO or EvE...
but on the other hand it isn't themepark either because it doesn't lead you quest by quest.
Thats the problem when we have Themepark / Sandbox discussions.. weve all fallin into the mental trap of thinking that those are the only two ways an MMO can be.
The PvE part of the game seemed more themepark to me. Especially when master levels and champion levels were introduced. They had a very linear feel.
RvR is where i found most of the sandbox feel of the game. For me anyway, one thing that makes a game a sandbox is, do the players have an effect on the world. In RvR you control territory , fight over relics which give realm buffs, and even control access to a zone through RvR. (darkness falls). Even small things like my woodworker being able to repair keep doors, gave me the feeling i was having an effect on the world. Sometimes it was up to the player as to what kind of experience they wanted. Being a siegecrafter and building your own siegeweapons would probably give you more of a sandbox feeling. Whereas if you just payed the siege npc to go out and build weapons for you, it would be more themepark imo. One of the things that made DaoC great was the choices you were given to make your own game experience. Which is something i feel newer games lack.
If you were to ask me to pick just one i would say themepark. Because i spent a lot more time in PvE than i did in RvR. I can however see that people who spent most of there time in RvR may see it as more of a sandbox.
Some of you don't seem to understand the concept of a Themepark, or a Sandbox.
IF you know what the two ACTUALLY mean you would have been able to clearly see that DAOC was, in fact, a SandPark.
Just to give you an "Overall" definition:
Themepark: Is an MMO that "guides" you down a specific path in order to experience the content developers created with SPECIFIC outcomes in mind. This generally happens with LINEAR quests that go from point A to point F handing off each quest to another quest. Meaning your starter village will have Quest A, the next village will finish A and will give quest B, and so forth until you reach the last village where quest F finishes off. Obviously this is an exagerated example as modern MMOs cleaverly disguise the "Linearality" design, but it's there.
The term "Themepark" describes the overall capacity of the product to allow the Player/Customer to actually explore, experience, and interact with the world itself. It has no DIRECT impact as to whether the game is classless or not, but generally themeparks use SET classes that are essentially the same as the next player with the same class. "Talent" systems do NOT differentiate classes as much as you think, so they are NOT and exception.
Sandbox: Is an MMO that does NOT "guide" you down ANY specific path and allows the player complete freedom (relatively speaking due to technology constraints) to interact with the world as a whole as they see fit. Don't like that windy sandy path down that MASSIVE open field? There are generally speaking no "Invisible Walls" here to keep you from your exploration giddyness. Again, technology constaints have an impact on world size & whether or not there are instances or loading screens. Freedom, is the CORE concept of a Sandbox MMO.
DAOC was a SAND-PARK. A mix between BOTH Themepark & Sandbox.
Cheers!
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
DAoC and EQ1 are not remotely themeparks. Themeparks are really about the notion of going to a zone, doing its wuest content (usually at a hub) then going over to the next section of the park and doing content there. While games like DAoC and EQ1 had level based zones, there wasnt really a list of activities to do, those zones were just part of the world.
The first true themepark game was Everquest 2, followed immediately by WoW.
Just came up with this question in my head its friday night and I have a glass of wine, yes this is how geeks party.
In daoc I did not follow quest paths, from a low level it was about finding a group and grinding up mobs at various patches with people. You could build your own house and RvR was an open ended pvp situation.
Let me know what you think.
Themepark? That's defined (as far as I know) as gamers having lots of options that are stagnant, linear, locked in one place. Such examples can be instanced E-sport zones, such as Huttball, or dungeon finder.
DAoC was NOT themepark. My reason is that persistant meaningful pvp was its own standard. A three realm mmorpg with politcal complexity. Themepark implies simplicity because of instant access entertainment, this is arguably why this model is able to gain massive investment and retains a lot of players.
But, neither was DAoC sandbox. By definition I believe sandbox is an mmorpg where nothing is linear. Nothing is preordained (i.e., factions, realms, etc). There is no GM created purpose. Players are completely responsible for any and all content - probably why I can't think of one successful sandbox. It's teenager heaven in a nutshell because you can kill anyone, do anything, or so the theorycrafting behind sandbox building goes.
Daoc was the only mmorpg that I know of that combined Medieval Total War with the races of Everquest, and gave you a real sense of US vs THEM vs THEM. It makes me want to facesmash when I see folks claim that GW2 is epic. I see 5 races and those are copy pasted all over. There's just nothing epic.
DAoC is NOT an E-Sport, i.e, theme park video game. It's not a sandbox either, It's the ONLY mmorpg that has never been copied or imitated. And sorry, for more reasons than you can imagine, Warhammer was NOT an upgrade.
DAoC was a gem. You will never see her again, not a part 2, or in any updated fashion.
DAoC was a gem. You will never see her again, not a part 2, or in any updated fashion.
/my 2 cents
Couldn't agree with you more on this statement
For the themepark / sandbox argument, someone else summed it up best, it would most likely qualify as a hybrid of both. No game has ever 'drawn me in' as much as this one did at its prime.
I just want to know what the sandbox elements are, that people are claiming were in the game. The closest sandbox feature it had were open dungeons.
Everyone in the thread that has said sandbox has said so without a reason.
That's ok you can flip the same reasoning on it's head and claim every game is a themepark, as many have for various games commonly considered sandboxes.. That's because there is no such thing as a sandbox "element." A sandbox game has a nonlinear gameplay mode. That's the actual definition although people try to throw all sorts oif things in to support their agendas. People will argue that in circles for hours instead of asking the real question: How linear was DAOC? It was pretty linear. Ultima Online was linear too, just not nearly as much. Any game with any character progression is at least a bit linear. Other MMOs have been a lot more linear.
Ok, so I guess then we can call WoW a sandbox also since it has different spec branches, and a choice of areas to level.
There are sandbox elements to games. Open ended skill progression... that's an element. That's more of a programming term though, if you like you can call it a sandbox feature.
You can. You'd be right too. What you can't say is WoW is less lnear than DAOC because WoW is much more linear. It's not particular features that matter it's the overall gameplay. No single feature or set of features defines what is or isn't a sandbox. It's not a binary question it's a matter of degrees.
It can be a binary question, for instance if game a has all linear features, then it is themepark. If game b has all sandbox features, it's sandbox.
Calling a game that has more themepark features than sandbox features a sandbox just doesn't make sense.
No MMO has all sandbox or all themepark features. I suppose super mario brothers for the NES would be a themepark. It was purely linear. A game has to be at least a bit linear to have any rules at all. Since there are no MMOs that meet purely Binary criteria your assertion is invalid.
I never said there was an MMO that had all of one or the other. I said that it's possible, and it IS possible.
Anyways, what this thread is really about is whether DAOC is a themepark or sandbox, calling a game with many themepark features a sandbox, just doesn't make sense. It had a few sandbox features, mainly how different abilities were gained. By some peoples definition, just the ability to walk around in 3D space constitutes a sandbox.
Some of you don't seem to understand the concept of a Themepark, or a Sandbox.
IF you know what the two ACTUALLY mean you would have been able to clearly see that DAOC was, in fact, a SandPark.
Just to give you an "Overall" definition:
Themepark: Is an MMO that "guides" you down a specific path in order to experience the content developers created with SPECIFIC outcomes in mind. This generally happens with LINEAR quests that go from point A to point F handing off each quest to another quest. Meaning your starter village will have Quest A, the next village will finish A and will give quest B, and so forth until you reach the last village where quest F finishes off. Obviously this is an exagerated example as modern MMOs cleaverly disguise the "Linearality" design, but it's there.
The term "Themepark" describes the overall capacity of the product to allow the Player/Customer to actually explore, experience, and interact with the world itself. It has no DIRECT impact as to whether the game is classless or not, but generally themeparks use SET classes that are essentially the same as the next player with the same class. "Talent" systems do NOT differentiate classes as much as you think, so they are NOT and exception.
Sandbox: Is an MMO that does NOT "guide" you down ANY specific path and allows the player complete freedom (relatively speaking due to technology constraints) to interact with the world as a whole as they see fit. Don't like that windy sandy path down that MASSIVE open field? There are generally speaking no "Invisible Walls" here to keep you from your exploration giddyness. Again, technology constaints have an impact on world size & whether or not there are instances or loading screens. Freedom, is the CORE concept of a Sandbox MMO.
DAOC was a SAND-PARK. A mix between BOTH Themepark & Sandbox.
Cheers!
Actually, almost every MMO combines themepark and sandbox components. Using the term 'sandpark' is basically the same as saying 'I dont understand MMOs'
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Just came up with this question in my head its friday night and I have a glass of wine, yes this is how geeks party.
In daoc I did not follow quest paths, from a low level it was about finding a group and grinding up mobs at various patches with people. You could build your own house and RvR was an open ended pvp situation.
Let me know what you think.
Absolutely a themepark. Not even up for debate.
Sandboxers just want to latch on to games to make BS claims.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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hm as I started in beta and played daoc until they shutdown the Co op with GOA/moved the servers to mythic/EA.
I would say when I started it was more of a sandbox, and as the time go it was closing up to something you could call themepark beta.
But consider WoW and all this mmorpgs that is out now you cant even compare them as daoc is daoc.
WoW what is that? not even the graphics are good and it's looking like a LSD trip.
chars look like hunchback uga lolipop.
Now days Yo almost must be dead zombie to have fun in mmo's. Contra the market of mmos I not that stupid that I think a product is fun just becouse your PR department spend miljons in marketing advertising telling me your product is fun. Thinking isnt illegal yeat!
If it released before EQ2 and WoW it isnt a themepark. Those 2 games were the first themeparks. Older games may have themepark elements, but they certainly arent themeparks.
Themepark and sandbox arent all there is, just because a game isnt a sandbox doesnt mean its a themepark.
i'm 99% sure DAOC did not have housing at release, like many other games it took a while before they added that. I could be wrong as it has been YEARS since I played.
I'm also 99% sure they had a lot of quests. I don't recall leveling on grinding alone. I remember doing a lot of quests. In fact, DAOC is the first game that caused me to get TWO PC's. You needed one to have a website database open at all times while the other ran your game. Plus DAOC almost required two accounts. Buff Bot and normal account.
The only grinding I remember in DAOC was enchanter pet fully buffed by buff bot pulling insta spawn "fins" i think? The focus shield on the pet returned so much damage and held aggro so well it was insane grinding!
Then they added darkness falls or something that involved a lot of grinding for currency items to buy gear.
At some point they added Trials of Atlantis I think? Which was VERY themepark. You had set quests and goals to achieve and were set to different areas to complete them.
I guess the better question here would have been "What really defines themepark and sandbox?"
It seems to me "sandbox" = grinding to most players and that seems wrong...
And Themepark = guided quests and instances... If guided quests and instances is themepark then I HOPE every future game is always a themepark. I hate being forced to grind mobs for hours and hours to level up. AZN MMO's are there if you want that!
It was a themepark. The only folks who will think it is a sandbox probably never played a sandbox, and think that EQ1 was a sandbox.
Oh yay sandbox snab is here*rolls eyes* there is other types of sandboxes not just you`re type.
Just becouse it was not ryzom or w/e little game you think is a sandbox, does not mean it`s not a sandbox.
Man little let smelling you`re own a@@, get some fresh air.
Sorry if I offended you, but try to understand where I'm coming from.
When I started playing MMORPGs, there was only Ultima Online. A few years down the road, Everquest came out and the distinction between sandbox and themepark was created. To me, and to many other people, Everquest was the first game recognized as a themepark, so I use it as a touchstone.
DAoC is EXTREMELY similar to Everquest in many respects, so I see it as a themepark. I find it...interesting that many folks nowadays are trying to say that Everquest, and thus similar games like DAoC, were a sandboxes...which is funny because EQ was the FIRST themepark.
I really don't think the game elements that WoW popularized like questing have anything to do with the sandbox/themepark distinction. So the fact that DAoC didn't have any major questing is irrelevant IMO.
I think a lot of people feel that Sandbox, PvP, and Hardcore are synonomous, which is fair enough because a true hardcore sandbox has to have FFA PvP, and generally tends to be at least a little hardcore. However, putting in PvP, no matter how well executed, doesn't make a game sandbox IMO. And EQ/DAoC were a lot more hardcore than WoW, but that doesn't make them sandboxes.
I can see the point of a lot of us "old school EQ" players considering it sandbox however. Compared to the games I had played prior to EQ, it was very much sandbox. My definition of sandbox is a game with no invisible barriers. There were a lot less invisible barriers in EQ than in previous games (UO excluded of course). Therefore, EQ = sandbox. With the benefit of hindsight, and comparing how far EQ went with eliminating invisible walls to how far they could've went (or how far UO went), EQ = themepark. And Creslin is right, DAoC was an improved version of EQ with a dedicated PvP (or RvR) component.
In short (too late, I know), I agree with Creslin that EQ and DAoC are basically themeparks. I just don't split up games into black and white. The fact that it is an MMO means that there is some freedom of movement, and the game is at least somewhat driven by the player community. You just have games like UO and DFO far to the right (sandbox), and WoW far to the left (themepark), with games like EQ and DAoC, which lie to the right of WoW, but still definitely on the themepark side of the spectrum.
Comments
Ok, so I guess then we can call WoW a sandbox also since it has different spec branches, and a choice of areas to level.
There are sandbox elements to games. Open ended skill progression... that's an element. That's more of a programming term though, if you like you can call it a sandbox feature.
I think in its time it was a Themebox but now its a sandbox compared to for example swtor or wow.
Let's internet
I wouldn't define it as either, from a long time mmoer perspective. I wouldn't really define any of the earlier mmos, since so many of them were mostly open worlds where you would pretty much grind for everything you wanted. Crafting Grind, Leveling Grind, PvP Rank Grind. Maybe we should call them Grinders :P
With that being said, I remember DAoC as being the mmo that got me into PvP. A game that I loved and hated, but left me with many fond memories.
PvP = Sandbox
PvE = Themepark (if you call grinding mobs at a camp that)
It can be a binary question, for instance if game a has all linear features, then it is themepark. If game b has all sandbox features, it's sandbox.
Calling a game that has more themepark features than sandbox features a sandbox just doesn't make sense.
I notice this term "Open World"
is being used to label games as sandbox or not.
To me, "Open World" is a Persistent World & Seamless World.
But all MMO have Persistent World. But many Themepark MMO have Seamless worlds. Even WoW has that.
Skyrim is called a Sandbox, but why? The world is just as open and seamless as WoW is. Where the sandbox come from?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
The main reason Skyrim is called a sandbox is because there is no set path that the player must follow to progress... For instance, I can go to any dungeon I want once I finish the intro area. Also, you can skillup your character any way you want.
Whereas in games like WoW, there is no way I can enter some areas, or dungeons unless I'm a certain level.
Agreed.
That said, the combination of DAoC's territorial gameplay, three faction system, and diversity in endgame rewards (personal, group, faction) made for a solid foundation for the politics and epic field battles (large and small) that it's famous for. In the absence of tools for sandbox gameplay, it provided an environment that fostered a good amount of the diplomacy, metagaming and emergent behaviour that sandbox games are known for.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Open world = zoneless world, doesnt necessarily mean seamless. Even though WoW was seemless it still had specific zones situated for a particular level.
DAoC IMO was a sandbox because for me the 2 main criteria for determining if an MMO is sandbox or not is 1. linear progression i.e. being "breadcrumbed" along a specific path doesnt matter if there are multiple paths or not. And 2. focus is on things to do at level cap or more commonly referred to as "end game".
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Indeed.
It isn't a sandbox game. The game isn't free form like UO or EvE...
but on the other hand it isn't themepark either because it doesn't lead you quest by quest.
Thats the problem when we have Themepark / Sandbox discussions.. weve all fallin into the mental trap of thinking that those are the only two ways an MMO can be.
The PvE part of the game seemed more themepark to me. Especially when master levels and champion levels were introduced. They had a very linear feel.
RvR is where i found most of the sandbox feel of the game. For me anyway, one thing that makes a game a sandbox is, do the players have an effect on the world. In RvR you control territory , fight over relics which give realm buffs, and even control access to a zone through RvR. (darkness falls). Even small things like my woodworker being able to repair keep doors, gave me the feeling i was having an effect on the world. Sometimes it was up to the player as to what kind of experience they wanted. Being a siegecrafter and building your own siegeweapons would probably give you more of a sandbox feeling. Whereas if you just payed the siege npc to go out and build weapons for you, it would be more themepark imo. One of the things that made DaoC great was the choices you were given to make your own game experience. Which is something i feel newer games lack.
If you were to ask me to pick just one i would say themepark. Because i spent a lot more time in PvE than i did in RvR. I can however see that people who spent most of there time in RvR may see it as more of a sandbox.
Some of you don't seem to understand the concept of a Themepark, or a Sandbox.
IF you know what the two ACTUALLY mean you would have been able to clearly see that DAOC was, in fact, a SandPark.
Just to give you an "Overall" definition:
Themepark: Is an MMO that "guides" you down a specific path in order to experience the content developers created with SPECIFIC outcomes in mind. This generally happens with LINEAR quests that go from point A to point F handing off each quest to another quest. Meaning your starter village will have Quest A, the next village will finish A and will give quest B, and so forth until you reach the last village where quest F finishes off. Obviously this is an exagerated example as modern MMOs cleaverly disguise the "Linearality" design, but it's there.
The term "Themepark" describes the overall capacity of the product to allow the Player/Customer to actually explore, experience, and interact with the world itself. It has no DIRECT impact as to whether the game is classless or not, but generally themeparks use SET classes that are essentially the same as the next player with the same class. "Talent" systems do NOT differentiate classes as much as you think, so they are NOT and exception.
Sandbox: Is an MMO that does NOT "guide" you down ANY specific path and allows the player complete freedom (relatively speaking due to technology constraints) to interact with the world as a whole as they see fit. Don't like that windy sandy path down that MASSIVE open field? There are generally speaking no "Invisible Walls" here to keep you from your exploration giddyness. Again, technology constaints have an impact on world size & whether or not there are instances or loading screens. Freedom, is the CORE concept of a Sandbox MMO.
DAOC was a SAND-PARK. A mix between BOTH Themepark & Sandbox.
Cheers!
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
DAoC and EQ1 are not remotely themeparks. Themeparks are really about the notion of going to a zone, doing its wuest content (usually at a hub) then going over to the next section of the park and doing content there. While games like DAoC and EQ1 had level based zones, there wasnt really a list of activities to do, those zones were just part of the world.
The first true themepark game was Everquest 2, followed immediately by WoW.
Themepark? That's defined (as far as I know) as gamers having lots of options that are stagnant, linear, locked in one place. Such examples can be instanced E-sport zones, such as Huttball, or dungeon finder.
DAoC was NOT themepark. My reason is that persistant meaningful pvp was its own standard. A three realm mmorpg with politcal complexity. Themepark implies simplicity because of instant access entertainment, this is arguably why this model is able to gain massive investment and retains a lot of players.
But, neither was DAoC sandbox. By definition I believe sandbox is an mmorpg where nothing is linear. Nothing is preordained (i.e., factions, realms, etc). There is no GM created purpose. Players are completely responsible for any and all content - probably why I can't think of one successful sandbox. It's teenager heaven in a nutshell because you can kill anyone, do anything, or so the theorycrafting behind sandbox building goes.
Daoc was the only mmorpg that I know of that combined Medieval Total War with the races of Everquest, and gave you a real sense of US vs THEM vs THEM. It makes me want to facesmash when I see folks claim that GW2 is epic. I see 5 races and those are copy pasted all over. There's just nothing epic.
DAoC is NOT an E-Sport, i.e, theme park video game. It's not a sandbox either, It's the ONLY mmorpg that has never been copied or imitated. And sorry, for more reasons than you can imagine, Warhammer was NOT an upgrade.
DAoC was a gem. You will never see her again, not a part 2, or in any updated fashion.
/my 2 cents
Couldn't agree with you more on this statement
For the themepark / sandbox argument, someone else summed it up best, it would most likely qualify as a hybrid of both. No game has ever 'drawn me in' as much as this one did at its prime.
I never said there was an MMO that had all of one or the other. I said that it's possible, and it IS possible.
Anyways, what this thread is really about is whether DAOC is a themepark or sandbox, calling a game with many themepark features a sandbox, just doesn't make sense. It had a few sandbox features, mainly how different abilities were gained. By some peoples definition, just the ability to walk around in 3D space constitutes a sandbox.
Actually, almost every MMO combines themepark and sandbox components. Using the term 'sandpark' is basically the same as saying 'I dont understand MMOs'
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Absolutely a themepark. Not even up for debate.
Sandboxers just want to latch on to games to make BS claims.
Lol
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
hm as I started in beta and played daoc until they shutdown the Co op with GOA/moved the servers to mythic/EA.
I would say when I started it was more of a sandbox, and as the time go it was closing up to something you could call themepark beta.
But consider WoW and all this mmorpgs that is out now you cant even compare them as daoc is daoc.
WoW what is that? not even the graphics are good and it's looking like a LSD trip.
chars look like hunchback uga lolipop.
Now days Yo almost must be dead zombie to have fun in mmo's.
Contra the market of mmos
I not that stupid that I think a product is fun just becouse your PR
department spend miljons in marketing advertising telling me your
product is fun. Thinking isnt illegal yeat!
They just aren't wow clones (obviously)
If it released before EQ2 and WoW it isnt a themepark. Those 2 games were the first themeparks. Older games may have themepark elements, but they certainly arent themeparks.
Themepark and sandbox arent all there is, just because a game isnt a sandbox doesnt mean its a themepark.
i'm 99% sure DAOC did not have housing at release, like many other games it took a while before they added that. I could be wrong as it has been YEARS since I played.
I'm also 99% sure they had a lot of quests. I don't recall leveling on grinding alone. I remember doing a lot of quests. In fact, DAOC is the first game that caused me to get TWO PC's. You needed one to have a website database open at all times while the other ran your game. Plus DAOC almost required two accounts. Buff Bot and normal account.
The only grinding I remember in DAOC was enchanter pet fully buffed by buff bot pulling insta spawn "fins" i think? The focus shield on the pet returned so much damage and held aggro so well it was insane grinding!
Then they added darkness falls or something that involved a lot of grinding for currency items to buy gear.
At some point they added Trials of Atlantis I think? Which was VERY themepark. You had set quests and goals to achieve and were set to different areas to complete them.
I guess the better question here would have been "What really defines themepark and sandbox?"
It seems to me "sandbox" = grinding to most players and that seems wrong...
And Themepark = guided quests and instances... If guided quests and instances is themepark then I HOPE every future game is always a themepark. I hate being forced to grind mobs for hours and hours to level up. AZN MMO's are there if you want that!
There is no such thing as a WoW-clone, all MMORPGs are in fact clones of the first: Meridian 59!
--
Michael
I think a lot of people feel that Sandbox, PvP, and Hardcore are synonomous, which is fair enough because a true hardcore sandbox has to have FFA PvP, and generally tends to be at least a little hardcore. However, putting in PvP, no matter how well executed, doesn't make a game sandbox IMO. And EQ/DAoC were a lot more hardcore than WoW, but that doesn't make them sandboxes.
I can see the point of a lot of us "old school EQ" players considering it sandbox however. Compared to the games I had played prior to EQ, it was very much sandbox. My definition of sandbox is a game with no invisible barriers. There were a lot less invisible barriers in EQ than in previous games (UO excluded of course). Therefore, EQ = sandbox. With the benefit of hindsight, and comparing how far EQ went with eliminating invisible walls to how far they could've went (or how far UO went), EQ = themepark. And Creslin is right, DAoC was an improved version of EQ with a dedicated PvP (or RvR) component.
In short (too late, I know), I agree with Creslin that EQ and DAoC are basically themeparks. I just don't split up games into black and white. The fact that it is an MMO means that there is some freedom of movement, and the game is at least somewhat driven by the player community. You just have games like UO and DFO far to the right (sandbox), and WoW far to the left (themepark), with games like EQ and DAoC, which lie to the right of WoW, but still definitely on the themepark side of the spectrum.
Generally I prefer sandboxes to these modern wow clone themeparks though