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The problem with sexy apparels
Buttermilch
Member Posts: 208
Hello people!
Quick note about my situation: I am the GameDesigner for a commercial browsergame releasing beta within a few months in Germany.
I am working closely with the rest of the team and discuss design descisions regularly. So we have a nice roleplaying game where you can equip your character with armor and weapons. I told the 2D-artist: "Make female armor rather sexy, it sells and looks better!"
Two teammembers voiced against the first draft and said this is sexism and they want realistical apparels for all characters. Just to get yourself a picture, this is one of the designs we are talking about:
So I just want to ask you gamers, and especially the female gamers:
Do you think sexy armor counts as sexism?
Comments
Sexy armor is not sexism. Sexy armor for females only is however. Why not make sexy armor for both genders?
That depends if it is, as you say, a commercial venture or a statement of your personal values. If the former go sexy to maximise profits, if the latter make something you believe in.I think your question is wrong. You should be asking "Does it matter that it's sexism?" People are used to females being displayed in more sexier outfits than males to a certain degree. Only if you display females in too sexy armors or the difference between male and female armors is extreme people start feeling insulted.
Problem with looking at it that way is that it ignores the realities of what people actually enjoy playing. Most people who play male characters are more interested in looking tough, badass, more scarred and brutal than sexy. Whereas people playing female characters more often want to look hot, albeit hot, in a badass sort of way.
Sexism is about inequality, but equality isn't about making everything the same, reality be damned.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Sex sells, always have, always will because it's one of the strongest urges that a human being has. Does it matter especially since it's in a fantasy world? If I want political corectness I can go to my workplace.
Nailed,
Who is your target audience, and what do they want?
Also, sexy can still be done without it being skimpy.
Underworld's Selene, Resident Evil's Alice, anything Michelle Rodriguez is in because she wears the same outfit in everything.... there are plenty of ways to put a woman in sexy gear without it being overly revealing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
As long as you can choose none sexy armors as well it really isn't a big problem. Forcing all females to wear skimpy armors on the other hand is bad. a game needs a variety of styles both for men and women.
You can't really make a judgement unless you see the male version of the armor.
I think people read way too much into this topic. Some of the arguments I've heard are down-right ridiculous. I remember reading about some chick who had a problem with Miranda from Mass Effect 2 and her skin-tight suit and certain camera shots that would show some clothed booty, along the lines of "why is that necessary" or whatever. Has this person never watched a movie or TV or anything?
As long as you understand that you can't please everybody, I think you'll have an easier time as a designer making these kinds of choices. I'm not saying go out of your way to piss off everyone on purpose but I think it's a trap that designers get into where they try and please everyone.
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Sexy is as sexist towards women as buff is towards men.
I'd love to see more objectivity and less caving to the pressures of the current anti-paternalistic agenda.
Our entertainment and marketting is so saturated with sexual imagry that I've just gone numb to it all
It's all so subjective and variable - I've gotten to an out-of-touch stage of life where I look around at the current generation's role models and feel I've completely lost track of what exactly is considered empowering vs what creates an uncomfortable environment, I have no sense of it at all, or even if there is any one commonly accepted standard that fits all people and all hours of the day.
If you make revealing armor for women then you have to do so for men. Otherwise it comes across as very one sided.
I would also include armor for women that isn't revealing. Not everyone buys into the Conan ideal of women's apparel. I do but that's a different story.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
didn't vote cuz I'm a guy. But here's my opinion:
It's appealing to the opposite sex. For sex reasons. Whether you consider that sexist or not is up to you.
But then, it could be appealing to women, who would probably like to look like that.
I know I'd love to look like a much less pixilated version of some of my AoC characters; totally ripped, six pack, can jog for miles without breaking a sweat. Women probably consider that sexy.
For me, I guess the line gets drawn at when a game seems to degrade a woman's role in the world to just being something to look at and/or have sex with.
I can't remember the name of it, but there was a magazine that did an article about celebrities that won at an awards show. The men, who included guys like Brad Pitt, were all dressed up in tuxedo's. The women, however, weren't dressed AT ALL. They were naked but covered in bed sheets. Keep in mind, they weren't doing a top 50 sexiest people thing, these were actors and actresses who acheived something in their work. And here we had men, dressed as distinguished people who achieved something great, and women whose portrayal could mean little more than, "I'm ready. Let's f(*k."
To me, THAT is sexist.
So I guess that would be my official position(sorry to take so long getting around to it). Female characters that wear things that would make me want to have sex with them isn't sexist. That picture would make that category.
Female character portrayals that say little more than, "Get on, cowboy.", are a different story.
And the treatment of the male characters IS part of the context. What's good for the goose, should be good for the gander.
No one ever seems to complain about the guy in the loin cloth with the six pack abs, but put a girl in bikini armor and it's sexist.
I'm not a woman, but I've known enough of them to know that some women actually LIKE to look sexy.
What your employees have expressed is merely an attempt to impart their own preference onto others. These are the types of women who tell other women that the way they present themselves is degrading to their gender and objectifies them. However what they fail to realize that it's really they themselves that degrade their gender by undermining a woman's right to choose to be sexy should she so desire, and by suggesting that one woman's actions/appearance somehow reflects the whole. In a sense they act to remove their own individuality.
Ranting aside, it would probably be a good idea to have a bit of both. Not every female outfit needs to be sexy. It would probably be wise (and more realistic) to offer some variety.
I don't have a problem with sexy gear. It's never bothered me at all. What has bothered me is when the choices of good looking gear (sexy or not) are so slim that 9 times out of 10 you are wearing something you think looks stupid. Make armor that wouldn't realistically be fit for combat. Make armor that is realistic. Whatever you do make it look good.
I mostly concur with RefMinor.
If the artist believes in the design he/she created, then I see no problem. Also, if the designer's creation is only pushed by the business to promote profits, then there is a problem.
But there is also other aspects. Providing only options that are considered "sexy" by the designer, by any agenda, would be considered sexist. Of course, a lot of this is speculative because every individual views their looks differently.
So, I personally say, give options. This is the safest bet.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
It's not sexism, it's just developing game media for a specific target audience, which is typically younger males.
Demanding the removal of revealing armor is just as discrimanatory as having it. The best solution, particularly if you want to appeal to a broader market, is to offer more options. Players who want revealing armor can have it, and those who dislike it can choose the alternative. It's important to note that this distinction should only be a cosmetic difference, and otherwise be functionally the same.
it is NOT, i have discussed this before, girls love watching half naked buff guys, this is how a woman's body should look, if you dont agree, what are you smoking? you do realize that we have imperfections on the body due to abuse such as just eating and eating, etc. and women in most mmos try to take off as mucn clothes as they can as well. also again we excuse them when they stare at shirtless guys, they arent kind enough to vice versa. therefore.... you should have figured out where i stand by now. and why.
Btw, very good quality work: You'll have to put a feather in your artist's cap!
A number of things to frame the question around:
1. The Essential Difference: Men - armament (muscles) Women - ornament (curves)
Showing both of these in our adventuring heroes and heroines is visually gratifying "demonstrating" their super vigor that such exceptionals need to take the fight to all manner of exotic monsters that deserve their heads and limbs to be hacked and splattered across the surroundings for their wickedness.
2. Acceptable Standards of Obsenity: Culturally, Psychologically varies.
Eg feet under the veil might be erotic for some vs the jaded response of seeing another LA-Hooker-attired shopper in the local mega-mall picking up the daily groceries.
So quick Q: Is it sexist? Objectively (1) no, but it might be subjectively (2) yes.
So solution add 1. customization for players to express for themselves and 2. have an upper limit to knakedness/sexiness of armour that you estimate to be justifiable for expressing (1) while considering (2). If it is sexy at least try and make an attempt at "practical utility" as well, which can cover up and make the character look just as "super" if not as overtly "sexy" ie "not just another bimbo + sword/gun" who would look more comfortable sipping out of cocktail glasses wearing Eau de parfume no.5... than having the strength to elbow an alien in the temple with a sickening *crunch*.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
It may be sexist, but i like it
Quote Flight of the Conchords!
"Oh my god, she's so hot
She's so f*cking hot, she's like a curry
I gotta tell her how hot she is
But if I tell her how hot she is she'll think I'm being sexist
She's so hot, she's making me sexist.......bitch "
All hail the Barn Owl! oh.. and the RED SQUIRREL!!!
Well we all agree that seeing armor that looks like spacesuits on male and female characters sint very appealing to the gaming community.
The armor doesnt have to be showing alot of skin, just make it look presentable, show of the characters curves for what they are.