Originally posted by Copeland I don't see this as a slam against the game at all. The economy in RV should be stable. You shouldn't see the run away inflation that you see in every other mmorpg out there.
I absolutely agree. Player driven economies just don't work, they end up with rampant inflation, the virtual collapse of currency and reversion to a barter system.
It's a good call by the RV devs I'd say.
A good wife deserves more than half the praise, just as a bad one deserves more than half the blame. - Tacitus
Thanks Copeland, nice to see some truth admitted without the disease of fanboiism skewing reality.
The economy poll proves most people prefer a player driven economy, over one that is periodically manipulated by the devs. I certainly expect to be rewarded consistently for my efforts, and not told one day that my earnings have been reduced because not enough players are purchasing in-game coin fabricated from thin air by the devs.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
That is because RV's economy will be the closest to a real world economy. It won't be player driven because you can't just go out and kill NPC shopkeepers and loot their money if they didn't sell anything. The VERM is like someone finding a gold deposit thus they gain wealth that was not previously in the world. The poll on the front page does show that the majority of people that come to MMORPG.com do prefer a player run economy. That brings up the question of, have they ever played a game with an economy that is so much like RL? Have they ever played a game that isn't player driven? I have not played one that is not player driven but, it is possible there is some. It would have to be not going out and killing monsters for cash they are carrying that the monster would not even take value in.
Copeland and Fadeus: You guys seem to be talking about two different things. Fadeus is talking about the amount of money in the economy, while Copeland is talking about the total wealth spread throughout the country. Apples and Oranges. If the amount of money is higher than the amount of wealth you get Inflation. Vice versa you get deflation.
Originally posted by Traken Copeland and Fadeus: You guys seem to be talking about two different things. Fadeus is talking about the amount of money in the economy, while Copeland is talking about the total wealth spread throughout the country. Apples and Oranges. If the amount of money is higher than the amount of wealth you get Inflation. Vice versa you get deflation.
No we are talking about economics. It's all related. While i may have discussed wealth i was only discussing wealth in relation to currency. Back in the 60's when the USA was still on the gold standard it would have been a much easier point to prove but since its alot more complicated now its kind of hard to discuss without sending people to college to study economics. There are many factors that go into the amount of currency any government puts into circulation. There is no finite amount. A government can print as much currency as it wishes today. When we were on the gold standard it was simply - how much gold do we have? Whats it worth? Ok well thats how much money we can print. If you dug up more gold then you could print more money. This system had serious flaws. Nixon took the USA off the gold standard because of these flaws. By taking us off the gold standard Nixon allowed the US Mint to print as much money as the country needed. Fadeus seems to think that the USA has a set number for the amount of currency it can put into circulation. The fact is that the number is determined by several factors. It can and does change.
Totally off topic but one reason for leaving the gold standard behind was basic counterfitting. A currency system that you can easily manipulate can adjust to the amount of counterfit money found in circulation. In the past if North Korea had printed up a billion in counterfit money it would have had serious ramifications for the USA. It was ultimately a war tactic that could be and was used and although nobody ever made a serious run of it there was cause for concern - cause enough to change our system.
I seem to remember some country basically had a counterfit US Mint running. I cant remember who though
Originally posted by Jorev Thanks Copeland, nice to see some truth admitted without the disease of fanboiism skewing reality. The economy poll proves most people prefer a player driven economy, over one that is periodically manipulated by the devs. I certainly expect to be rewarded consistently for my efforts, and not told one day that my earnings have been reduced because not enough players are purchasing in-game coin fabricated from thin air by the devs.
Where there is an opinion, there is a dissenting opinion. In this case, I'll make several points about Jorev's beginning statement, which will have no effect of how Jorev uses this statement in his argument in the future.
"The economy poll proves most people prefer a player driven economy, over one that is periodically manipulated by the devs." My version of that sentence would only change one word--"The economy poll proves most people prefer a player driven economy, over one that is periodically moderated by the devs."
Or, in another argument about it, I could say your poll proves nothing. In your poll, you merely ask if they prefer a player driven economy. Of course, not everyone has the exact same idea of a "player driven economy" in mind, I'd believe...or, maybe I'm wrong, because I dono't exactly how you're defining this system. You made no mention in your poll of the differences you see between a player driven economy and a non-player driven economy. You make no mention in reporting the results of this poll, that there were numerous comments on player-driven economies often not being "newb friendly."
"...because not enough players are purchasing in-game coin fabricated from thin air by the devs." That same argument, yet again? Sheesh, that's getting old fast, especially when you're accusing members of a company taking the time to POST HERE of being so selfish to do such a thing...but, as you haven't changed your song yet, I bet you'll still be whistlin' this tune months after the game is out and everyone is happy with the game.
The dev's will inevitably make it hard to play RV for free. We can take PE for an example. In PE you can earn money or you can buy money. The way the game makes money is they set a decay rate on items so you have to fix them ALOT. The only place to repair items is at a repair terminal. Anytime you use a trade terminal or a repair terminal in PE that money is going out of circulation thus countering the effect of being able to just buy more currency. It's not easy to make enough money in game to cover your expenses. It takes real effort. It's not impossible though and alot of people actually profit off the game. The thing is not everyone can profit. They have to make it where more people are paying than are being paid. While RV wont allow you to "cash out" at the end of the day they will still need to make enough money every month to pay the bills. So naturally part of what Jorev is saying is accurate. I think Jorev overestimates the involvement of the dev's and the cost of the currency. The dev's will clearly want people to play so they wont just manipulate the currency to fill their pockets. There has to be a balance in what they do or they will destroy their creation. They know that, you know that and i know that.
Jorev i think your fears (or those that i've read) are a bit misplaced.. think of it this way..
You can sheer a sheep a thousand times.. you can skin it only once.
Not that i'm saying gamers are sheep! I think nevrax made that mistake LOL
Originally posted by PrJdGmr Or, in another argument about it, I could say your poll proves nothing. In your poll, you merely ask if they prefer a player driven economy. Of course, not everyone has the exact same idea of a "player driven economy" in mind, I'd believe...or, maybe I'm wrong, because I dono't exactly how you're defining this system. You made no mention in your poll of the differences you see between a player driven economy and a non-player driven economy. You make no mention in reporting the results of this poll, that there were numerous comments on player-driven economies often not being "newb friendly."
Thank you
acknowledging facts does not make anyone a "fanboi" One thing Jorev seems completely unable to do is acknowledge facts. Placing a poll that is so general it may as well have said "do you prefer red or green" in an area of the forums away from the argument is just W E A K! and it of course proves nothing.
The RV devs are making a genuine attempt to manage the overall wealth generation in RV at a micro and a macro level. They should be at least encouraged to try if for no other reason than it being a fresh approach to the endless pumping of never ending game cash that is the case in every other MMO.
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"By taking us off the gold standard Nixon allowed the US Mint to print as much money as the country needed." And I said it didn't? I was simply trying to let you two see where each other was coming from.
Originally posted by Entreri28 Actually I think gods making currency and giving it to players fits more into the game as an RP element than a rabbit that has gold coins.
Nice take on it
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Originally posted by Entreri28 Actually I think gods making currency and giving it to players fits more into the game as an RP element than a rabbit that has gold coins.
You mean the rabbits and rats where you live don't carry copper silver and gold pieces? Where the heck are you from
I don't think the devs will tamper with the decay rates to offset the bought Sesterces. I think a major reason for NPCs is that they can be used as a sink for the Sesterces. A player buys 1000 Sesterces, 200 NPCs in the area lose 5 Sesterces each.
Someone suggested the idea that if a player donates a hefty amount, then the player can spawn as an offspring of a Chieftain or Senator after terminating his/her old character. I have no problem with players being handed power on a silver platter because as a small fish I would only worry about competing with other small fishes, and as a big fish I would worry about competing with factions and not other individuals. In fact it would add a lot to the 180 AD roleplay to see some players born into the Equestrian or a tribe's nobility. This would be another reason for having NPCs because the player will basically be buying a blood connection to a powerful NPC.
Originally posted by Coins I don't think the devs will tamper with the decay rates to offset the bought Sesterces. I think a major reason for NPCs is that they can be used as a sink for the Sesterces. A player buys 1000 Sesterces, 200 NPCs in the area lose 5 Sesterces each. Someone suggested the idea that if a player donates a hefty amount, then the player can spawn as an offspring of a Chieftain or Senator after terminating his/her old character. I have no problem with players being handed power on a silver platter because as a small fish I would only worry about competing with other small fishes, and as a big fish I would worry about competing with factions and not other individuals. In fact it would add a lot to the 180 AD roleplay to see some players born into the Equestrian or a tribe's nobility. This would be another reason for having NPCs because the player will basically be buying a blood connection to a powerful NPC.
Well its fascinating isnt it... because tampering with the decay rates is the exact way that the PE devs have made most of their "subtle changes" (or thats my perception at least) to ensure the flow of RL cash is into and not out of the game.
If I was to be even a fraction as cynical as Jorev about the potential of this revnue model to vacume cash from players on any grounds at all it would be via item decay..... In PE it is SO HARD to get in front from combat when your armour and weapons take damage and decay a fraction faster then you can earn in almost every case, its very frustraing.!!
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I wouldn't call it player driven. I would call it similar to a real world economy. The NPC's influence the economy. They arn't like other games where if you give them money it is gone or they have a infinite amount of money for you to sell them stuff. The shopkeepers will make and spend money similar to players because in the RP element they are supposed to be people as well, unlike most games.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open. Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
Originally posted by Entreri28 I wouldn't call it player driven. I would call it similar to a real world economy. The NPC's influence the economy. They arn't like other games where if you give them money it is gone or they have a infinite amount of money for you to sell them stuff. The shopkeepers will make and spend money similar to players because in the RP element they are supposed to be people as well, unlike most games.
In other words the actions and interactions of the players will determine the availability of money from NPC's..... How much more do you need to describe it as player driven ??
If the inference is that other MMO's where the NPC's have limitless cash at all times regardless of interaction with players, is player driven... then Id say
The fact is ... as others have already stated.... there is basically no such thing as a player driven economy.... its a perfect notion that will never be realised, however the proposals under which the RV economy will run are a lot closer to the desirable model than any other MMO to date.
The only other game I have played that even limits the infinite sale of goods to NPC's is UO.... almost 10 years ago they were doing it... You sold lots of the same thing to an NPC and the price gradually reduced until eventually they wouldnt buy any more from you and you had to go elsewhere.
This is hardly revolutionary.... unless of course your a NOOB!
----the n00b reference is not aimed at anyone----
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A player driven economy is one where the players control how many items and how much in-game coin exists in the game, because they can only be derived from within the game world.
A player driven economy is one where the laws of supply and demand are allowed to function accurately to determine prices, without periodic manipulation by the devs because of an external revenue system linked directly to the fabrication of in-game coin.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Jorev A player driven economy is one where the players control how many items and how much in-game coin exists in the game, because they can only be derived from within the game world. A player driven economy is one where the laws of supply and demand are allowed to function accurately to determine prices, without periodic manipulation by the devs because of an external revenue system linked directly to the fabrication of in-game coin.
Ok so given the fact that your definition of a player driven economy is the only acceptable one.
Why dont you name any current MMO where this is the case......
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Originally posted by Jorev A player driven economy is one where the players control how many items and how much in-game coin exists in the game, because they can only be derived from within the game world. A player driven economy is one where the laws of supply and demand are allowed to function accurately to determine prices, without periodic manipulation by the devs because of an external revenue system linked directly to the fabrication of in-game coin.
Ok so given the fact that your definition of a player driven economy is the only acceptable one.
Why dont you name any current MMO where this is the case......
Oh I am so very, very interested to hear the answer to this one...
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush. Oh. My. God.
Most MMOG's follow those principles. Let's just pick two well known ones. EQ2 and WoW.
Neither offers items fabricated outside the game world, that are then introduced to the game world. Secondary sales of coin and items are a result of time spent in-game to earn them, hence derived from the environment, so the economy is still in tact and working as it should. The items and coin that exist in the virtual game world have a direct correlation to actions taken in that world, no matter how many times they change hands thru secondary sales.
The devs for either game do not manipulate NPC prices, or effect drop rates, in an ongoing attempt to compensate for, or influence the amount of coin fabricated outside the virtual world.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Most MMOG's follow those principles. Let's just pick two well known ones. EQ2 and WoW.
EQ2 and WoW both have NPC's with limitless cash and limitless items regardless of the interaction with players. No amount of players not buying and item or not selling an item to an NPC will affect either how much cash they hold or how much cash they can put out or how many items they will buy or sell. Let me quote you on your description of how a so called "player driven economy" works in this respect
"A player driven economy is one where the laws of supply and demand are allowed to function accurately to determine prices"
----------------------
Excerpt from the link below
supply and demand, in classical economics, factors that are said to determine price, by correlating the amount of a given commodity producers hope to sell at a certain price (supply), and the amount of that commodity that consumers are willing to purchase (demand). Supply refers to the varying amounts of a good that producers will supply at different prices; in general, a higher price yields a greater supply. Demand refers to the quantity of a good that is demanded by consumers at any given price. According to the law of demand, demand decreases as the price rises. In a perfectly competitive economy, the combination of the upward-sloping supply curve and the downward-sloping demand curve yields a supply and demand schedule that, at the intersection of the two curves, reveals the equilibrium price of an item.
So neither the price of goods nor the availability is affected in either of these games by player interaction with the NPC's.....It is SET BY DEVS and changed by them at will!
My friend you are making it up as you go along!!
So onto the next "points"
Neither offers items fabricated outside the game world, that are then introduced to the game world.
Garbage....!! So your saying that they have tools in the gameworld to creat new items ? I think you will find all items are fashioned outside the gameworld using their creation tools then introduced to the live game as they see fit. If what you say is true (and I have made this point to you time and time again) no game world would change AT ALL after launch. Devs would launch the game and then go home and let it run. However as we all know in the real world (as opposed to the one you inhabit) devs make chnages to loot items all the time. They add new drops to mobs and remove them on a whim. They change spawn rates and loot drops in ways that can devastate the value of a once rare item, or render a once common item rare virtually overnight.
Secondary sales of coin and items are a result of time spent in-game to earn them, hence derived from the environment, so the economy is still in tact and working as it should. The items and coin that exist in the virtual game world have a direct correlation to actions taken in that world, no matter how many times they change hands thru secondary sales.
Secondary sales of coin out of game from EQ2 and WoW are almost exclusively the work of Bots. Have you played either of these games past level 5 ?? In both games all you see in L30+ areas are groups of bot farmers monopolising spawns. HOW is this effort by players ?? How is the economy working as it should when the stated policies of both companies ban these actions yet they are rampant !! Indeed it is the lack of action on behalf of the devs and managers creates an INFINITE flow of cash through the game thus ramping up inflation on basic items in the game, anyone who has played EQ2 or WoW beyond L30 will confirms this.
The devs for either game do not manipulate NPC prices, or effect drop rates, in an ongoing attempt to compensate for, or influence the amount of coin fabricated outside the virtual world.
Now this is complete RUBBISH! The devs of both games are constantly tweeking drops to suit whatever current bent thay have about how loot is falling in the game. Just read any patch message as you log into EQ2 and you will see dozens of messages like "The loot on X monster has been adjusted to better reflect X policy. It is as normal an everyday occurence as the servers going down and coming up.
You live in a fantasy realm.... unfortunately its not in a game
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Supply and demand work the way they are supposed to in games like WoW and EQ2, because the so called unlimited cash you speak of, is directly linked to actions performed in-game, and therefore limited to those actions. The rewards are an average based on the difficulty of the task and are not manipulated based on an external revenue system. This is not the case with Roma Victor, where buying in-game coin fabricated outside the game world has no continuity with the game.
You just refuse to acknowledge reality and the truth in order to make excuses for RV's revenue system.
Secondary sales of coin and items earned in-game are still a direct result of having worked for them originally within the virtual world, which maintains the tenets of such a virtual world. This is not the case with Roma Victor, which introduces coin fabricated outside the virtual world, to the game world, thus destroying the integrity of such boundaries.
Bots are a separate issue and are considered illegal in most games since they usually require third party programs to operate which violate the EULAs and most companies ban accounts using them, as they should.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Saying that a person is making things up as they go along is telling them that they're debating a fact creatively. All we should be doing here, given the circumstances, is argue over what makes or doesn't make Roma Victor's economy a "player-driven economy."
Originally posted by Jorev Most MMOG's follow those principles. Let's just pick two well known ones. EQ2 and WoW. Neither offers items fabricated outside the game world, that are then introduced to the game world. Secondary sales of coin and items are a result of time spent in-game to earn them, hence derived from the environment, so the economy is still in tact and working as it should. The items and coin that exist in the virtual game world have a direct correlation to actions taken in that world, no matter how many times they change hands thru secondary sales. The devs for either game do not manipulate NPC prices, or effect drop rates, in an ongoing attempt to compensate for, or influence the amount of coin fabricated outside the virtual world.
Most MMOG's follow the same principle...so wheres the individuality and creativity? Each game's economic system is practically a carbon copy of the last game's system, just with a different name for the money. Thats one reason I advocate RV's proposed economic system: its not the same old, same old.
Hm...I have only little experience in this, but by stretching my imagination, I would believe that eventually the secondary sales of item and coin are required for new people who come into the game to be able to compete. In the supply and demand economies in those games, supply and demand is in rough equilibrium...but, over time, the amount of coin in the economy goes up gradually, and the suppliers start selling their "hard-earned" items for more coin. While this is ok for the older players, this could deter newer players whom try to compete, and don't want to make purchases, don't you think?
And, in your last sentence, you make a biased statement against the economy proposed. First you make sure to point out that most economies don't fabricate coin or items and introduce them into the game world, then you say that they don't do anything to compensate for it...not very valid for your arguement.
Originally posted by Jorev I am not making anything up as I go along. Supply and demand work the way they are supposed to in games like WoW and EQ2, because the so called unlimited cash you speak of, is directly linked to actions performed in-game, and therefore limited to those actions. The rewards are an average based on the difficulty of the task and are not manipulated based on an external revenue system. This is not the case with Roma Victor, where buying in-game coin fabricated outside the game world has no continuity with the game. You just refuse to acknowledge reality and the truth in order to make excuses for RV's revenue system. Secondary sales of coin and items earned in-game are still a direct result of having worked for them originally within the virtual world, which maintains the tenets of such a virtual world. This is not the case with Roma Victor, which introduces coin fabricated outside the virtual world, to the game world, thus destroying the integrity of such boundaries. Bots are a separate issue and are considered illegal in most games since they usually require third party programs to operate which violate the EULAs and most companies ban accounts using them, as they should.
Here, your argument is the most well composed I think I've seen so far...I've been sitting here for a good half hour, just working out how I'd respond to this post. A simple, concise statement about why the Roma Victor system is not player-driven as other MMOGs are, and a statement accurately discerning the differences between Roma Victor's proposed system and the major argument brought up against your, lacking a better term at mind, hatred for the system...while both have been mentioned before, the debate hasn't gotten much farther to the other side responding to those points in a good manner.
However, just because people disagree with your argument does not make their point of view invalid; where you say they refuse to admit "reality and the truth in order to make excuses for RV's revenue system," others might say that you refuse to admit the merit in their system in order to denounce any system allowing the purchase of ingame goods. From what I remember having heard from you, you speak of it as all evil and no good.
I begin my last statement about where you say they "destroy the integrity of such boundaries"...I would they they only breach them, seeing as how they limit the amount the players can recieve. And, now that I think of it, they could use this to their advantage when new players join a year or two after the game goes retail ( provided it lasts that long, of course, but personally I'm hoping it will ). If the prices on all items in general feel the effects of inflation, the team behind RV may have knocked up the amount of money gotten for paying, helping new players get into the economy with significantly less effort than it would have taken them otherwise, and yet probably still more effort than was required when the game began...of course, I'm being optimistic about the integrity of the devs, and you would probably take a different stand entirely about that.
Comments
I absolutely agree. Player driven economies just don't work, they end up with rampant inflation, the virtual collapse of currency and reversion to a barter system.
It's a good call by the RV devs I'd say.
A good wife deserves more than half the praise, just as a bad one deserves more than half the blame. - Tacitus
Thanks Copeland, nice to see some truth admitted without the disease of fanboiism skewing reality.
The economy poll proves most people prefer a player driven economy, over one that is periodically manipulated by the devs. I certainly expect to be rewarded consistently for my efforts, and not told one day that my earnings have been reduced because not enough players are purchasing in-game coin fabricated from thin air by the devs.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
That is because RV's economy will be the closest to a real world economy. It won't be player driven because you can't just go out and kill NPC shopkeepers and loot their money if they didn't sell anything. The VERM is like someone finding a gold deposit thus they gain wealth that was not previously in the world. The poll on the front page does show that the majority of people that come to MMORPG.com do prefer a player run economy. That brings up the question of, have they ever played a game with an economy that is so much like RL? Have they ever played a game that isn't player driven? I have not played one that is not player driven but, it is possible there is some. It would have to be not going out and killing monsters for cash they are carrying that the monster would not even take value in.
Copeland and Fadeus: You guys seem to be talking about two different things. Fadeus is talking about the amount of money in the economy, while Copeland is talking about the total wealth spread throughout the country. Apples and Oranges. If the amount of money is higher than the amount of wealth you get Inflation. Vice versa you get deflation.
No we are talking about economics. It's all related. While i may have discussed wealth i was only discussing wealth in relation to currency. Back in the 60's when the USA was still on the gold standard it would have been a much easier point to prove but since its alot more complicated now its kind of hard to discuss without sending people to college to study economics. There are many factors that go into the amount of currency any government puts into circulation. There is no finite amount. A government can print as much currency as it wishes today. When we were on the gold standard it was simply - how much gold do we have? Whats it worth? Ok well thats how much money we can print. If you dug up more gold then you could print more money. This system had serious flaws. Nixon took the USA off the gold standard because of these flaws. By taking us off the gold standard Nixon allowed the US Mint to print as much money as the country needed. Fadeus seems to think that the USA has a set number for the amount of currency it can put into circulation. The fact is that the number is determined by several factors. It can and does change.
Totally off topic but one reason for leaving the gold standard behind was basic counterfitting. A currency system that you can easily manipulate can adjust to the amount of counterfit money found in circulation. In the past if North Korea had printed up a billion in counterfit money it would have had serious ramifications for the USA. It was ultimately a war tactic that could be and was used and although nobody ever made a serious run of it there was cause for concern - cause enough to change our system.
I seem to remember some country basically had a counterfit US Mint running. I cant remember who though
Make a difference!
Where there is an opinion, there is a dissenting opinion. In this case, I'll make several points about Jorev's beginning statement, which will have no effect of how Jorev uses this statement in his argument in the future.
"The economy poll proves most people prefer a player driven economy, over one that is periodically manipulated by the devs."
My version of that sentence would only change one word--"The economy poll proves most people prefer a player driven economy, over one that is periodically moderated by the devs."
Or, in another argument about it, I could say your poll proves nothing. In your poll, you merely ask if they prefer a player driven economy. Of course, not everyone has the exact same idea of a "player driven economy" in mind, I'd believe...or, maybe I'm wrong, because I dono't exactly how you're defining this system. You made no mention in your poll of the differences you see between a player driven economy and a non-player driven economy. You make no mention in reporting the results of this poll, that there were numerous comments on player-driven economies often not being "newb friendly."
"...because not enough players are purchasing in-game coin fabricated from thin air by the devs."
That same argument, yet again? Sheesh, that's getting old fast, especially when you're accusing members of a company taking the time to POST HERE of being so selfish to do such a thing...but, as you haven't changed your song yet, I bet you'll still be whistlin' this tune months after the game is out and everyone is happy with the game.
The dev's will inevitably make it hard to play RV for free. We can take PE for an example. In PE you can earn money or you can buy money. The way the game makes money is they set a decay rate on items so you have to fix them ALOT. The only place to repair items is at a repair terminal. Anytime you use a trade terminal or a repair terminal in PE that money is going out of circulation thus countering the effect of being able to just buy more currency. It's not easy to make enough money in game to cover your expenses. It takes real effort. It's not impossible though and alot of people actually profit off the game. The thing is not everyone can profit. They have to make it where more people are paying than are being paid. While RV wont allow you to "cash out" at the end of the day they will still need to make enough money every month to pay the bills. So naturally part of what Jorev is saying is accurate. I think Jorev overestimates the involvement of the dev's and the cost of the currency. The dev's will clearly want people to play so they wont just manipulate the currency to fill their pockets. There has to be a balance in what they do or they will destroy their creation. They know that, you know that and i know that.
Jorev i think your fears (or those that i've read) are a bit misplaced.. think of it this way..
You can sheer a sheep a thousand times.. you can skin it only once.
Not that i'm saying gamers are sheep! I think nevrax made that mistake LOL
Make a difference!
Thank you
acknowledging facts does not make anyone a "fanboi" One thing Jorev seems completely unable to do is acknowledge facts. Placing a poll that is so general it may as well have said "do you prefer red or green" in an area of the forums away from the argument is just W E A K! and it of course proves nothing.
The RV devs are making a genuine attempt to manage the overall wealth generation in RV at a micro and a macro level. They should be at least encouraged to try if for no other reason than it being a fresh approach to the endless pumping of never ending game cash that is the case in every other MMO.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
"By taking us off the gold standard Nixon allowed the US Mint to print as much money as the country needed." And I said it didn't? I was simply trying to let you two see where each other was coming from.
Actually I think gods making currency and giving it to players fits more into the game as an RP element than a rabbit that has gold coins.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I don't think the devs will tamper with the decay rates to offset the bought Sesterces. I think a major reason for NPCs is that they can be used as a sink for the Sesterces. A player buys 1000 Sesterces, 200 NPCs in the area lose 5 Sesterces each.
Someone suggested the idea that if a player donates a hefty amount, then the player can spawn as an offspring of a Chieftain or Senator after terminating his/her old character. I have no problem with players being handed power on a silver platter because as a small fish I would only worry about competing with other small fishes, and as a big fish I would worry about competing with factions and not other individuals. In fact it would add a lot to the 180 AD roleplay to see some players born into the Equestrian or a tribe's nobility. This would be another reason for having NPCs because the player will basically be buying a blood connection to a powerful NPC.
Well its fascinating isnt it... because tampering with the decay rates is the exact way that the PE devs have made most of their "subtle changes" (or thats my perception at least) to ensure the flow of RL cash is into and not out of the game.
If I was to be even a fraction as cynical as Jorev about the potential of this revnue model to vacume cash from players on any grounds at all it would be via item decay..... In PE it is SO HARD to get in front from combat when your armour and weapons take damage and decay a fraction faster then you can earn in almost every case, its very frustraing.!!
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I wouldn't call it player driven. I would call it similar to a real world economy. The NPC's influence the economy. They arn't like other games where if you give them money it is gone or they have a infinite amount of money for you to sell them stuff. The shopkeepers will make and spend money similar to players because in the RP element they are supposed to be people as well, unlike most games.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
In other words the actions and interactions of the players will determine the availability of money from NPC's..... How much more do you need to describe it as player driven ??
If the inference is that other MMO's where the NPC's have limitless cash at all times regardless of interaction with players, is player driven... then Id say
The fact is ... as others have already stated.... there is basically no such thing as a player driven economy.... its a perfect notion that will never be realised, however the proposals under which the RV economy will run are a lot closer to the desirable model than any other MMO to date.
The only other game I have played that even limits the infinite sale of goods to NPC's is UO.... almost 10 years ago they were doing it... You sold lots of the same thing to an NPC and the price gradually reduced until eventually they wouldnt buy any more from you and you had to go elsewhere.
This is hardly revolutionary.... unless of course your a NOOB!
----the n00b reference is not aimed at anyone----
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
A player driven economy is one where the players control how many items and how much in-game coin exists in the game, because they can only be derived from within the game world.
A player driven economy is one where the laws of supply and demand are allowed to function accurately to determine prices, without periodic manipulation by the devs because of an external revenue system linked directly to the fabrication of in-game coin.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
I smell a Democrat. The hatred for the rich runs thick.
Ok so given the fact that your definition of a player driven economy is the only acceptable one.
Why dont you name any current MMO where this is the case......
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Ok so given the fact that your definition of a player driven economy is the only acceptable one.
Why dont you name any current MMO where this is the case......
Oh I am so very, very interested to hear the answer to this one...
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
Most MMOG's follow those principles. Let's just pick two well known ones. EQ2 and WoW.
Neither offers items fabricated outside the game world, that are then introduced to the game world. Secondary sales of coin and items are a result of time spent in-game to earn them, hence derived from the environment, so the economy is still in tact and working as it should. The items and coin that exist in the virtual game world have a direct correlation to actions taken in that world, no matter how many times they change hands thru secondary sales.
The devs for either game do not manipulate NPC prices, or effect drop rates, in an ongoing attempt to compensate for, or influence the amount of coin fabricated outside the virtual world.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I am not making anything up as I go along.
Supply and demand work the way they are supposed to in games like WoW and EQ2, because the so called unlimited cash you speak of, is directly linked to actions performed in-game, and therefore limited to those actions. The rewards are an average based on the difficulty of the task and are not manipulated based on an external revenue system. This is not the case with Roma Victor, where buying in-game coin fabricated outside the game world has no continuity with the game.
You just refuse to acknowledge reality and the truth in order to make excuses for RV's revenue system.
Secondary sales of coin and items earned in-game are still a direct result of having worked for them originally within the virtual world, which maintains the tenets of such a virtual world. This is not the case with Roma Victor, which introduces coin fabricated outside the virtual world, to the game world, thus destroying the integrity of such boundaries.
Bots are a separate issue and are considered illegal in most games since they usually require third party programs to operate which violate the EULAs and most companies ban accounts using them, as they should.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Saying that a person is making things up as they go along is telling them that they're debating a fact creatively. All we should be doing here, given the circumstances, is argue over what makes or doesn't make Roma Victor's economy a "player-driven economy."
Most MMOG's follow the same principle...so wheres the individuality and creativity? Each game's economic system is practically a carbon copy of the last game's system, just with a different name for the money. Thats one reason I advocate RV's proposed economic system: its not the same old, same old.
Hm...I have only little experience in this, but by stretching my imagination, I would believe that eventually the secondary sales of item and coin are required for new people who come into the game to be able to compete. In the supply and demand economies in those games, supply and demand is in rough equilibrium...but, over time, the amount of coin in the economy goes up gradually, and the suppliers start selling their "hard-earned" items for more coin. While this is ok for the older players, this could deter newer players whom try to compete, and don't want to make purchases, don't you think?
And, in your last sentence, you make a biased statement against the economy proposed. First you make sure to point out that most economies don't fabricate coin or items and introduce them into the game world, then you say that they don't do anything to compensate for it...not very valid for your arguement.
Here, your argument is the most well composed I think I've seen so far...I've been sitting here for a good half hour, just working out how I'd respond to this post. A simple, concise statement about why the Roma Victor system is not player-driven as other MMOGs are, and a statement accurately discerning the differences between Roma Victor's proposed system and the major argument brought up against your, lacking a better term at mind, hatred for the system...while both have been mentioned before, the debate hasn't gotten much farther to the other side responding to those points in a good manner.
However, just because people disagree with your argument does not make their point of view invalid; where you say they refuse to admit "reality and the truth in order to make excuses for RV's revenue system," others might say that you refuse to admit the merit in their system in order to denounce any system allowing the purchase of ingame goods. From what I remember having heard from you, you speak of it as all evil and no good.
I begin my last statement about where you say they "destroy the integrity of such boundaries"...I would they they only breach them, seeing as how they limit the amount the players can recieve. And, now that I think of it, they could use this to their advantage when new players join a year or two after the game goes retail ( provided it lasts that long, of course, but personally I'm hoping it will ). If the prices on all items in general feel the effects of inflation, the team behind RV may have knocked up the amount of money gotten for paying, helping new players get into the economy with significantly less effort than it would have taken them otherwise, and yet probably still more effort than was required when the game began...of course, I'm being optimistic about the integrity of the devs, and you would probably take a different stand entirely about that.