I think people were talking about permadeath in mmos.
How many roguelikes do you know doesnt have permadeath? The one i know of is chocobos dungeon but there are others that strip you naked and take ur levels away which is pretty much like a permadeath.
Also isnt that game single player?
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Even if perma death is niche, what's the problem of just making a perma death server right?
make a perma death server for EQ, WOW, Rift or whatever. And let the people that enjoy it to play in it.
But to me the problem is really people that quit the game after they die. That means a loss in subscriber for the publisher. I think that's the main reason we never saw perma death server. Or at least very few implement it. And the few that did have perma death remove it.
I think it's because disconnections were a normal way to die at the time.
The problem with just a server, is there is no reward for the risk.
So the game needs to be able to accomodate permadeath, and/or the reward must be equal to the risk.
Mount and Blade crpg mod allows you to kill yourself, then heirloom an item to your heir.(new char) and you start over. It's a choice. Not sure if the legacy system in Tor works like that, but You could level from 1-50 five to ten times to get max gear if you didnt like raiding or pvp treadmills.
People already do that, yet remain 2nd class citizens even though they play were the devs put their heart. They put in as much effort, so do crafters, this way their rewards can equal the raiders and pvp bots. All playstyles have paths to equal success. instead of the majortiy quiting at level cap, now 1/4 of them stay longer. See permadeath can heal not only destroy.
You could implement it in so many ways. But, the objections to it are all on the extreme without examples.
It's not really an issue of singleplayer vs. multiplayer vs. MMO.
It's an issue of time investment. That's why roguelikes with permadeath works. In a roguelike you're going to die without ever investing more than 2-4 hours into a single character. Often you die much quicker than that.
Reading deeper into FTL: "Currently each game lasts between 15 and 90 miutes" Exactly what I'm talking about.
MMORPGs are about investing more than 4 paltry hours in the same character, so permadeath doesn't really make sense for them.
There are exceptions and ways around this general rule, I suppose (most of your "character" in H&H is the stuff you own, which stays in the game world if you happen to die; and even part of your stats carry over to your next generation.) It'll be interesting to see if Salem manages to go the same route with its permadeath.
Any permadeath that works is summed up as "permadeath which isn't really permadeath":
EVE: "Permadeath only if you're really stupid."
H&H: "Permadeath only for some of your character's stats, but your stuff (the stuff that represents most of your progression) is still there."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It's not really an issue of singleplayer vs. multiplayer vs. MMO.
It's an issue of time investment. That's why roguelikes with permadeath works. In a roguelike you're going to die without ever investing more than 2-4 hours into a single character. Often you die much quicker than that.
Reading deeper into FTL: "Currently each game lasts between 15 and 90 miutes" Exactly what I'm talking about.
MMORPGs are about investing more than 4 paltry hours in the same character, so permadeath doesn't really make sense for them.
There are exceptions and ways around this general rule, I suppose (most of your "character" in H&H is the stuff you own, which stays in the game world if you happen to die; and even part of your stats carry over to your next generation.) It'll be interesting to see if Salem manages to go the same route with its permadeath.
But really that just goes to show that "permadeath which isn't really permadeath" is mostly what players want. Just like EVE's "permadeath, but only if you're really stupid" model. It's not really permadeath in actual practice.
So what about a game that had an equal reward for the risk of permadeath, what would most people want then?.
Eve's death penalty is for immersion, there no reward, so there must be a way to avoid it.
So permadeath is the death of your char, his family, his possesions, his land, everything vanishes if your char dies permantly, and no trace of you exists in the game world anymore. Otherwise its not real permadeath, its fake permadeath like real life is?
Character progression is the only real progression. If all your poseesions and land ect stayed and just your char died (like RL) it's not real permadeath?
I assume unless you take wow and add permadeath as the death penalty, then its not real permadeath or it's not a real MMO.
There is only 4388 backers on the project. That is less than a light population server in any game. If that is not niche, what is?
And that game is not even multiplayer. You know that permadeath on a 10 hour single player game, is very different from permadeath in a MMO that a player may put in hundreds, if not hours into a character?
EQ had perma death server. SWG had perma death for jedi character. But I think they removed it. Quite frankly I think alot of people quit after they die, so they removed perma death. Diablo 2 also have perma death server.
Dofus I think have perma death server.
I think some other game had perma death server. The thing to me is games that had perma death server that reverted back.
If you are talking about the Discord server, that was far from permadeath. All it did was reset you to level 1, you did not have to create a new toon each time you died.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Cool. If I was one of those devs, I'd wait a week, take the money, pack up, and throw a big fat middle finger on the page. Peace the fuck out - no working for 7 months sounds good to me, and the tears of seven thousand scammed would be sweet joy.
Like I said, if we split the pot in half, that's seven off for me. I think that game would require more than seven months worth of effort. So nah, I'll pass on your whole 'profit' explanation.
Permadeath is still niche though. I like it when it works correctly (in certain MUDs) or when it is with a group where we can impose it ourselves (DDO is big on permadeath guilds). But there's a crowd here on MMORPG.com that are like HURR DURR IM AN ARMCHAIR DEVELOPER, LETS THROW PERMADEATH ON AN ALREADY EXISTING MMO LIKE WOW, THAT WILL MAKE IT ONE HUNDRED TIMES BETTER!
And that's why when we hear permadeath, we ask that you get out.
Cool. If I was one of those devs, I'd wait a week, take the money, pack up, and throw a big fat middle finger on the page. Peace the fuck out - no working for 7 months sounds good to me, and the tears of seven thousand scammed would be sweet joy.
Like I said, if we split the pot in half, that's seven off for me. I think that game would require more than seven months worth of effort. So nah, I'll pass on your whole 'profit' explanation.
Permadeath is still niche though. I like it when it works correctly (in certain MUDs) or when it is with a group where we can impose it ourselves (DDO is big on permadeath guilds). But there's a crowd here on MMORPG.com that are like HURR DURR IM AN ARMCHAIR DEVELOPER, LETS THROW PERMADEATH ON AN ALREADY EXISTING MMO LIKE WOW, THAT WILL MAKE IT ONE HUNDRED TIMES BETTER!
And that's why when we hear permadeath, we ask that you get out.
Are you kidding me? We're saying it can work as good as any other risk vs reward mechanic especially in a game thats NOT LIKE WOW.
Sorry if that ruins your joke. You should read before you insult and make fun people agreeing with you thinking your owning those that dont.
Try insulting individuals instead of groups, and you avoid that problem. reading the responses and responding to them or the topic and your big funny might not flop next time.
Well nicely done. no one laughed and i responded. Now that im in your trap..what now? Do you win or something? Is this where you let me have your original thoughts thats will show everyone what happens when they fall into one of your unfunny traps?
Or is that it? Cause so far this trap is worse than your joke.
Permanent death is a relic that stayed with us from the coin popping arcade days. The idea was death was going to get us to spend more quarters and maximize profits of the arcade owner. It is by no means a fun game concept. You can make games that make you feel as shitty about dying without resorting to permanent death.
So many people want permanent death until they die. Then suddenly they are punching in walls
Uhm, no. Permadeath is from most pen and paper RPGs.
It work very well there since during a year of P&P you never get into that many fights while you more or less combat all the time in MMOs. You also don't crash during play there, one bluescreen and you would be down in a MMO.
Permadeath works in MMOs, CCP will prove it in WoDO. There the player who is the prince of the region can call a bloodhunt, which is p0ermadeath during certain circumstances. That is not something that will happen because windows crashes or you have bad luck.
But permadeath al'a Salem will never get that many players, you just put in too much work and if something stupid happens that will make many players to quit the game.
Permadeath would also work in a game with very little combat or in none combat game where only accidents kill players. But there are few MMOs like that. If EA ever tries a new Sims online it would work there for example.
Permanent death is a relic that stayed with us from the coin popping arcade days. The idea was death was going to get us to spend more quarters and maximize profits of the arcade owner. It is by no means a fun game concept. You can make games that make you feel as shitty about dying without resorting to permanent death.
So many people want permanent death until they die. Then suddenly they are punching in walls
Uhm, no. Permadeath is from most pen and paper RPGs.
It work very well there since during a year of P&P you never get into that many fights while you more or less combat all the time in MMOs. You also don't crash during play there, one bluescreen and you would be down in a MMO.
Permadeath works in MMOs, CCP will prove it in WoDO. There the player who is the prince of the region can call a bloodhunt, which is p0ermadeath during certain circumstances. That is not something that will happen because windows crashes or you have bad luck.
But permadeath al'a Salem will never get that many players, you just put in too much work and if something stupid happens that will make many players to quit the game.
Permadeath would also work in a game with very little combat or in none combat game where only accidents kill players. But there are few MMOs like that. If EA ever tries a new Sims online it would work there for example.
So what about a game that had an equal reward for the risk of permadeath, what would most people want then?.
Eve's death penalty is for immersion, there no reward, so there must be a way to avoid it.
So permadeath is the death of your char, his family, his possesions, his land, everything vanishes if your char dies permantly, and no trace of you exists in the game world anymore. Otherwise its not real permadeath, its fake permadeath like real life is?
Character progression is the only real progression. If all your poseesions and land ect stayed and just your char died (like RL) it's not real permadeath?
I assume unless you take wow and add permadeath as the death penalty, then its not real permadeath or it's not a real MMO.
Most players dislike permadeath because it erases progress. No amount of risk vs. reward is going to matter to those players. And besides, "risk" vs. reward is never really what it should be about. Challenge vs. reward is a vastly superior game structure. Do something really challenging: get rewarded.
Also these types of permadeath are nothing like real life. In real life you don't reincarnate and come back to use your possessions. You die and your possessions are meaningless.
Whereas in a game like Haven & Hearth, losing your character doesn't wipe away your entire "presence" in the game. It only wipes away the character. In H&H the character is only worth about half the value of your overall time investment in the game (obviously as a game lets you retain more of your overall value between deaths, the popularity of that type of death system increases.)
Any game which completely wipes character progression has true permadeath. This should be obvious.
But like I said, if players are investing 8+ hours into these characters and having it completely wiped you're left with an extremely small audience interested in that sort of thing (not worth doing at all unless you can do it as a very cheap and optional game feature.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Most players dislike permadeath because it erases progress. No amount of risk vs. reward is going to matter to those players. And besides, "risk" vs. reward is never really what it should be about. Challenge vs. reward is a vastly superior game structure. Do something really challenging: get rewarded.
On a side note I mainly disagree with the statement about risk vrs reward and challenge vrs reward. In my opinion there is no challenge without risk. The greater the risk the greater the potential challenge.
While risk is not in and of itself challenge I think the two go hand in hand.
On to the more relative topic at hand on permadeath. If a game is to have permadeath the game must be built from the ground up with all of the strutures of the game built around that concept. Permadeath in a modern day typical MMO simply will not work. A permadeath game can work, however, if the game is built properly with the permadeath idea as a key structure to the game from the initial design phase. I would also go more for a limited set of lives in a permadeath game over a simple one death and your character is over sort of thing.
In a general concept I would shoot for a completely open pvp environment with a limted set of lives in which a starting character has enough power to at least challenge an established character to one degree or another. Any abuse by one character or group of characters would be simple to overcome by simply getting the rest of the server to concentrate on wiping the bad people out. You could have a few safe zones to respawn in to prevent people from spawn camping etc.
While I do agree that the general concept of permadeath is primarily a niche game, I think a well constructed permadeath game could draw in as big numbers as any other triple A MMO. Unfortunately the current state of development seems to be very uncreative at the moment so we are not likely to see anything like that come out anytime in the near future.
On a side note I mainly disagree with the statement about risk vrs reward and challenge vrs reward. In my opinion there is no challenge without risk. The greater the risk the greater the potential challenge.
While risk is not in and of itself challenge I think the two go hand in hand.
In IWBTG, death is an instant reset which costs you 2-120 seconds. But you will only advance through near-flawless play. No risk. Insane challenge.
So risk has absolutely nothing to do with challenge. You just like risk.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So what about a game that had an equal reward for the risk of permadeath, what would most people want then?.
Eve's death penalty is for immersion, there no reward, so there must be a way to avoid it.
So permadeath is the death of your char, his family, his possesions, his land, everything vanishes if your char dies permantly, and no trace of you exists in the game world anymore. Otherwise its not real permadeath, its fake permadeath like real life is?
Character progression is the only real progression. If all your poseesions and land ect stayed and just your char died (like RL) it's not real permadeath?
I assume unless you take wow and add permadeath as the death penalty, then its not real permadeath or it's not a real MMO.
Most players dislike permadeath because it erases progress. No amount of risk vs. reward is going to matter to those players. And besides, "risk" vs. reward is never really what it should be about. Challenge vs. reward is a vastly superior game structure. Do something really challenging: get rewarded.
Also these types of permadeath are nothing like real life. In real life you don't reincarnate and come back to use your possessions. You die and your possessions are meaningless.
Whereas in a game like Haven & Hearth, losing your character doesn't wipe away your entire "presence" in the game. It only wipes away the character. In H&H the character is only worth about half the value of your overall time investment in the game (obviously as a game lets you retain more of your overall value between deaths, the popularity of that type of death system increases.)
Any game which completely wipes character progression has true permadeath. This should be obvious.
But like I said, if players are investing 8+ hours into these characters and having it completely wiped you're left with an extremely small audience interested in that sort of thing (not worth doing at all unless you can do it as a very cheap and optional game feature.)
Well, if complete wipes as a death penalty is the only true permadeath to you, then i guess there's not much else to learn from you atm. All your points seem to stuck there.
When you reroll in a permadeath game are you reincarnating? In real life you dont as you said. So wouldnt the only true permadeath be you cant even play anymore?
Like I said if you'll only take the worst implementaion as being 'true', then that's all I need to know i guess. thanks for the reasonable response though.
On a side note I mainly disagree with the statement about risk vrs reward and challenge vrs reward. In my opinion there is no challenge without risk. The greater the risk the greater the potential challenge.
While risk is not in and of itself challenge I think the two go hand in hand.
In IWBTG, death is an instant reset which costs you 2-120 seconds. But you will only advance through near-flawless play. No risk. Insane challenge.
So risk has absolutely nothing to do with challenge. You just like risk.
When you add rewards you add risk automatically dont you?
Well, if complete wipes as a death penalty is the only true permadeath to you, then i guess there's not much else to learn from you atm. All your points seem to stuck there.
When you reroll in a permadeath game are you reincarnating? In real life you dont as you said. So wouldnt the only true permadeath be you cant even play anymore?
Like I said if you'll only take the worst implementaion as being 'true', then that's all I need to know i guess. thanks for the reasonable response though.
Re-rolling in a true permadeath game is just re-rolling. You're not effectively "reincarnating" since you'll have zero claim on anything you did in the former life.
If you did, it wouldn't be permadeath (just like it wouldn't IRL if that sort of thing were possible.)
Locking players out of the game completely would also be true permadeath, but it's enough if players simply lose everything when they re-roll.
But why talk about the worst types of permadeath that nobody really wants?
Just because some types of permadeath aren't "true" permadeath doesn't make them bad. Entirely the opposite, actually. The less "true", the better!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Comments
How many roguelikes do you know doesnt have permadeath? The one i know of is chocobos dungeon but there are others that strip you naked and take ur levels away which is pretty much like a permadeath.
Also isnt that game single player?
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I think it's because disconnections were a normal way to die at the time.
The problem with just a server, is there is no reward for the risk.
So the game needs to be able to accomodate permadeath, and/or the reward must be equal to the risk.
Mount and Blade crpg mod allows you to kill yourself, then heirloom an item to your heir.(new char) and you start over. It's a choice. Not sure if the legacy system in Tor works like that, but You could level from 1-50 five to ten times to get max gear if you didnt like raiding or pvp treadmills.
People already do that, yet remain 2nd class citizens even though they play were the devs put their heart. They put in as much effort, so do crafters, this way their rewards can equal the raiders and pvp bots. All playstyles have paths to equal success. instead of the majortiy quiting at level cap, now 1/4 of them stay longer. See permadeath can heal not only destroy.
You could implement it in so many ways. But, the objections to it are all on the extreme without examples.
It's not really an issue of singleplayer vs. multiplayer vs. MMO.
It's an issue of time investment. That's why roguelikes with permadeath works. In a roguelike you're going to die without ever investing more than 2-4 hours into a single character. Often you die much quicker than that.
Reading deeper into FTL: "Currently each game lasts between 15 and 90 miutes" Exactly what I'm talking about.
MMORPGs are about investing more than 4 paltry hours in the same character, so permadeath doesn't really make sense for them.
There are exceptions and ways around this general rule, I suppose (most of your "character" in H&H is the stuff you own, which stays in the game world if you happen to die; and even part of your stats carry over to your next generation.) It'll be interesting to see if Salem manages to go the same route with its permadeath.
Any permadeath that works is summed up as "permadeath which isn't really permadeath":
EVE: "Permadeath only if you're really stupid."
H&H: "Permadeath only for some of your character's stats, but your stuff (the stuff that represents most of your progression) is still there."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So what about a game that had an equal reward for the risk of permadeath, what would most people want then?.
Eve's death penalty is for immersion, there no reward, so there must be a way to avoid it.
So permadeath is the death of your char, his family, his possesions, his land, everything vanishes if your char dies permantly, and no trace of you exists in the game world anymore. Otherwise its not real permadeath, its fake permadeath like real life is?
Character progression is the only real progression. If all your poseesions and land ect stayed and just your char died (like RL) it's not real permadeath?
I assume unless you take wow and add permadeath as the death penalty, then its not real permadeath or it's not a real MMO.
hmm .. yeah ... permadeath is niche.
There is only 4388 backers on the project. That is less than a light population server in any game. If that is not niche, what is?
And that game is not even multiplayer. You know that permadeath on a 10 hour single player game, is very different from permadeath in a MMO that a player may put in hundreds, if not hours into a character?
If you are talking about the Discord server, that was far from permadeath. All it did was reset you to level 1, you did not have to create a new toon each time you died.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
To the OP.
World of Warcraft has more subscribers than every single mmo with permadeath combined times 50 or so.
Cool. If I was one of those devs, I'd wait a week, take the money, pack up, and throw a big fat middle finger on the page. Peace the fuck out - no working for 7 months sounds good to me, and the tears of seven thousand scammed would be sweet joy.
Like I said, if we split the pot in half, that's seven off for me. I think that game would require more than seven months worth of effort. So nah, I'll pass on your whole 'profit' explanation.
Permadeath is still niche though. I like it when it works correctly (in certain MUDs) or when it is with a group where we can impose it ourselves (DDO is big on permadeath guilds). But there's a crowd here on MMORPG.com that are like HURR DURR IM AN ARMCHAIR DEVELOPER, LETS THROW PERMADEATH ON AN ALREADY EXISTING MMO LIKE WOW, THAT WILL MAKE IT ONE HUNDRED TIMES BETTER!
And that's why when we hear permadeath, we ask that you get out.
Are you kidding me? We're saying it can work as good as any other risk vs reward mechanic especially in a game thats NOT LIKE WOW.
Sorry if that ruins your joke. You should read before you insult and make fun people agreeing with you thinking your owning those that dont.
Try insulting individuals instead of groups, and you avoid that problem. reading the responses and responding to them or the topic and your big funny might not flop next time.
I wasn't looking to make people laugh.
Just to make people respond.
Eve does not have perma-death. It has permanent loss but not permanent death of character.
Well nicely done. no one laughed and i responded. Now that im in your trap..what now? Do you win or something? Is this where you let me have your original thoughts thats will show everyone what happens when they fall into one of your unfunny traps?
Or is that it? Cause so far this trap is worse than your joke.
Uhm, no. Permadeath is from most pen and paper RPGs.
It work very well there since during a year of P&P you never get into that many fights while you more or less combat all the time in MMOs. You also don't crash during play there, one bluescreen and you would be down in a MMO.
Permadeath works in MMOs, CCP will prove it in WoDO. There the player who is the prince of the region can call a bloodhunt, which is p0ermadeath during certain circumstances. That is not something that will happen because windows crashes or you have bad luck.
But permadeath al'a Salem will never get that many players, you just put in too much work and if something stupid happens that will make many players to quit the game.
Permadeath would also work in a game with very little combat or in none combat game where only accidents kill players. But there are few MMOs like that. If EA ever tries a new Sims online it would work there for example.
Agreed.
This looks like a shitty facebook game. This just tells me that people who like permadeath like shitty games.
Most players dislike permadeath because it erases progress. No amount of risk vs. reward is going to matter to those players. And besides, "risk" vs. reward is never really what it should be about. Challenge vs. reward is a vastly superior game structure. Do something really challenging: get rewarded.
Also these types of permadeath are nothing like real life. In real life you don't reincarnate and come back to use your possessions. You die and your possessions are meaningless.
Whereas in a game like Haven & Hearth, losing your character doesn't wipe away your entire "presence" in the game. It only wipes away the character. In H&H the character is only worth about half the value of your overall time investment in the game (obviously as a game lets you retain more of your overall value between deaths, the popularity of that type of death system increases.)
Any game which completely wipes character progression has true permadeath. This should be obvious.
But like I said, if players are investing 8+ hours into these characters and having it completely wiped you're left with an extremely small audience interested in that sort of thing (not worth doing at all unless you can do it as a very cheap and optional game feature.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
On a side note I mainly disagree with the statement about risk vrs reward and challenge vrs reward. In my opinion there is no challenge without risk. The greater the risk the greater the potential challenge.
While risk is not in and of itself challenge I think the two go hand in hand.
On to the more relative topic at hand on permadeath. If a game is to have permadeath the game must be built from the ground up with all of the strutures of the game built around that concept. Permadeath in a modern day typical MMO simply will not work. A permadeath game can work, however, if the game is built properly with the permadeath idea as a key structure to the game from the initial design phase. I would also go more for a limited set of lives in a permadeath game over a simple one death and your character is over sort of thing.
In a general concept I would shoot for a completely open pvp environment with a limted set of lives in which a starting character has enough power to at least challenge an established character to one degree or another. Any abuse by one character or group of characters would be simple to overcome by simply getting the rest of the server to concentrate on wiping the bad people out. You could have a few safe zones to respawn in to prevent people from spawn camping etc.
While I do agree that the general concept of permadeath is primarily a niche game, I think a well constructed permadeath game could draw in as big numbers as any other triple A MMO. Unfortunately the current state of development seems to be very uncreative at the moment so we are not likely to see anything like that come out anytime in the near future.
Damn that was harsh lol.
Yes I played SWTOR.
In IWBTG, death is an instant reset which costs you 2-120 seconds. But you will only advance through near-flawless play. No risk. Insane challenge.
So risk has absolutely nothing to do with challenge. You just like risk.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well, if complete wipes as a death penalty is the only true permadeath to you, then i guess there's not much else to learn from you atm. All your points seem to stuck there.
When you reroll in a permadeath game are you reincarnating? In real life you dont as you said. So wouldnt the only true permadeath be you cant even play anymore?
Like I said if you'll only take the worst implementaion as being 'true', then that's all I need to know i guess. thanks for the reasonable response though.
When you add rewards you add risk automatically dont you?
Re-rolling in a true permadeath game is just re-rolling. You're not effectively "reincarnating" since you'll have zero claim on anything you did in the former life.
If you did, it wouldn't be permadeath (just like it wouldn't IRL if that sort of thing were possible.)
Locking players out of the game completely would also be true permadeath, but it's enough if players simply lose everything when they re-roll.
But why talk about the worst types of permadeath that nobody really wants?
Just because some types of permadeath aren't "true" permadeath doesn't make them bad. Entirely the opposite, actually. The less "true", the better!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sorry no offense but that game looks like a 1990's retro nintendo console game. I know graphics isnt everything but that looks bad.
Ohh and FFA PvP and Perma Death will always be niche, doesnt make it bad just not mainstream.
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Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
@OP
So Permadeath isn't niche because like 5000 people donated money?
Do you know what niche means?
Not to mention they might donate to themself. You know how people are.