T.G Enterprises New Leveling system

Comments

• Anofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433

  August 2005

  Is that going to be intuitive (like CoH or WoW) or would it be something you need to know and harsh to realize exactly what the big picture is (Horizons like or Mudlike)?

  - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
• Neanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,861

  August 2005

  Personally, I think the whole concept of 'leveling up' is antiquated.  Using levels means you will be making a 'leveling up' game and makes it impossible to make a consistant virtual world.

  When you have low level characters who fall over and die if you poke them with a needle and high level characters of the same race whom you could beat with a sledge hammer all day and they would barely notice it...how could you possibly make a logically consistant virtual world?  You can't.  So what you end up with is a leveling game that guides your character through a series of segregated monster bashing areas.

  I could rant some more about it but there isn't much point.  I've pretty much decided that I won't ever play a game like that again.  I'm so sick of the pointless grinding for levels in games that don't even vaguely resemble virtual worlds but are just a series of linked together whack-a-mole areas.  Games in which the only point is to whack increasingly bigger moles untill you can finally whack the biggest mole of all.  Weeeee!

  But never mind me, I must be in the minority.  Most MMORPG gamers must be happy with that type of game because that's what the industry keeps cranking out for us.
• Mikey0114 Member Posts: 310

  August 2005

  Well I can't give in my feedback yet cause its a bit hard to understand....sorry...too many questions were raised up in my mind. I will ask you later on Gary.

  And to address Neanderthal....you got it incredibly wrong I think! If you haven't noticed this isn't some simple game where the higher your level the better you are. Don't you see the list of skills and attributes you may choose from. The lvling up is just a number...which gives you skill points and attribute points...but you are not gonna be tougher then another player if your 50 lvls higher but you gave your character the wrong attributes for the skills he's taken. Lets say you have focused on being a melee fighter....cause you have all the melee skills but your attributes are mainly focused on memory and intelligence....lol I am gonna kick your ass! Now if they add more attributes, rework the caps and amounts of skill points and attribute points given I think they could possibly make a game where you totally customise your character while it lvls up....there is no simple tech tree....your character could possibly be unique.....if they add more different types of attributes that is.

  This game in my opinion may suit the UO people lazing around waiting for a game....though I do not know if it is Open PvP....I doubt it but having the ability to go from one faction to the other sounds incredibly cool!. From what information I have collected, the game seems cool...just a lot more thought has to be put into its plans...right now they have a game where its probably gonna be 2 main factions fighting each other like in WoW...but this is Good vs Evil.The lead programmer seems to have come up with an idea that you may become a traitor to your main faction and join the evil faction. This is kind of cool in my own opinion. Its still is in extremely early development this game and hasn't been announced yet even but they said it will be announced this month i think.

  I believe there still needs to be a lot of work and thought given to this system but I almost understand what it is.....you lvl up and then to have a good character depends on what attributes you focus on. Now this might be very hardcore but maybe there can be a guide to aid newbie players. I don't know what the devs intend about that. Hopefully these guys can pull it off anyway.

  Edit: Gary if you can...give a more brief explanation on the point of lvling still being present.....I don't see why its needed.....this system will encourage grinding just so you are aware. Why not award little exp and skill points for killing Mobs and lots of Exp for completing Quests and lots of bonus skill points some how for killing enemy players. Its a stupid idea but if you work off it...maybe you could find a way to reduce the degree of grinding thats being encouraged by your current plan.
• Mikey0114 Member Posts: 310

  August 2005

  
  

  ---

  
  Originally posted by T.GEnt
  
  To raise attributes you will gain 3-5 Attribute points per level up, to spend on whichever attributes you desire.
  Also as your weapon skills go up so will some attributes. Depending on what weapon you are using. For instance if you use an Axe your strength and toughness will rise.
  The level cap will be around level 80 at the moment but this may change. Also attributes and weapon skills may also change depending on how feedback and testing go.
  
  

  ---

  
  

  Ok gary I need you to re-explain these 3 things....cause I can't give you proper feedback yet....

  1. Why are there two ways to increase a characters attributes?

  2. Can you please explain why it is necassary to have the lvling system? If its only for the attribute points I would understand. But I recommend a different way of gainging exp to encourage players to avoid grinding. It is possible to avoid encouraging grinding if you award very little exp to player characters (if not no exp at all) for killing MOBs. Then for questing and pvping a lot of exp can be awarded....that keeps the grinding away and you are actually encouraging your player base to go out and fight the enemy....I know you said this game is pvp orientated but newbie questing at the start of the game would help low lvl characters who have just entered the game world settle into the game before they enter the pvp world. Unless you do intend on adding quest content into the game world aswell.....you never said anything about that yet, thats why.
• Froztwolf Member Posts: 56

  August 2005

  There is one thing about this progressin system that irks me. Why have skills seperate from levels if you are going to earn them both the same way? Why not train skills with an offline system in the same way as EVE (Where you just begin training a skill and it takes a certain amount of time based on your attributes, even ig you arent online for the duration) but grant XP through killing enemies?
  Or at least if you are keeping the current system I feel that you should allow some non-combat and non-grinding ways of earning skill points.
• Mikey0114 Member Posts: 310

  August 2005

  Because that method suited Eve...its not that simple to implement a system like that....Eve has thousands and thousands of skills to learn and thats why they made it like that.....Eve is a totally different game from this and so time to earn skills worked in Eve's favour....Fantasy games to my knowledge don't have thousands of skills so I doubt it would work in their favour!
• Froztwolf Member Posts: 56

  August 2005

  Im afraid you overestimate EVE slightly. It has number of skills in the lower hundreds range and Im fairly sure it was counted in tens and not hundreds at launch.
  Regardless of that, I fail to see why a similar system wouldnt work in a fantasy game or any theme at all for that matter. The RP-reason in EVE for learning the skill is that you are reading a skill book and surely that can be applied to nearly all gameworlds?
• Mikey0114 Member Posts: 310

  August 2005

  Look I don't think its a good idea in my own opinion for a fantasy game...but I love Eve's idea of time to gain skills...Eve put together a lot of things that effected skill gaining such as the fact that skills permitted you to use new equipment....In fantasy games instead of new equipment its just skills and the weapons you carry...but more about the skills then the weapons!

  And then there is the fact that Eve permitted cloaning and the such....to allow players to conserve skill cause if their pod ever gets destroyed and they have 200,000 skill points and your cloan could only hold 60,000 goodbye 140,000 skill points...I loved that idea...but anything like it or similar to it is a horrible idea. If you couldn't loose those skill points it would have been boring! Now how could you possibly do something similar to that cloaning and not make it sci-fi or not too far from reality...because then it won't be appreciated.

  Finally its just plaine boring!! Earning skill points for crafting by just waiting around and for doing nothing is absolutely boring! Eve had it made because it was all about the Equipment....in Eve instead of ability skills you had equipment and stuff....games you have ability skills.

  Edit: You just made me realise somethin....I don't think Eve could have had it any other possible way for skill improvement. I mean the most important thing is having the most appropriate powerful equipment for the job you intend to do and so your equipment depends on your skills. Now imagine they didn't use a system of time to gain skills....I think the game eve would have been a total failure if you had to work to get your skills. I mean ISK is easy to get so I don't mind purchasing skills but developing them would have sucked if you could pay for the next lvl of that skill aswell and working on that skill would have been even worse in Eve's case...and for some skills I can't imagine a possible way to work on a skill unless Eve was totally lvl based like WoW. Now do you understand why Eve is one of the few games that uses that skill gaining system?
• entrana Member Posts: 106

  August 2005

  personally i dont think we have enough technology yet for the non-leveling realistic worlds we all want, the games that are out now that try it are prime examples as they have laughable player numbers compared to leveling games..its like trying to run before you can walk.

  btw this was replying to some guys post further up the page that twigged me ^^

  anyways i think this is a good concept for a leveling system as it takes successful bits and pieces from other games (the weapon skill growth from UO spring to mind )

  but yeah i'd love to see this game when its ready

  
• JoeyNipps Member Posts: 186

  August 2005

  While it sounds as if you have already fixated on a "level" based system, I will throw in my two cents worth.

  You should NOT go with a level system.  Instead go with a PURE skill system ala Ultima Online.  It is so simple in concept and practice because (at least for one reason) it simulates real life practice of skills.  Simply put - you practice a skill you get better, you don't practice a skill you don't get better.

  The whole concept of "gaining experience" for killing is not only antiquated but plain wrong in the first place and leads to a wide variety of game roleplay and mechanics problems.  One learns virtually NOTHING from killing something - battling it yes, besting it yes, losing and running away with your life yes - but killing in and of itself teaches virtually nothing (past perhaps the very first time you see something die).  With a pure skill system (ala UO) this means that one can roleplay a killer or not and still gain skills.  Also, one does NOT get better with a sword in any way shape or fashion by using a fishing rod (just a silly example) - one MUST practice with a sword to gain skill in use of the sword.

  I implore you (if you want to set yourself ahead of the rest of the MMORPG crowd) to go with a PURE skill system - no levels, no classes - period.  There is NO reason whatsoever that a caster of magic (for example) cannot also be good with a sword.  Yes, one wants to place some boundaries and limits - but that is secondary to the core issue.

  If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
• Mikey0114 Member Posts: 310

  August 2005

  Well there is always the straight skill based system which UO created. Its my favourite prefer to any other existing character improvement system. But I want to try and help these guys discover a new system for character improvement where its not how much you play only but it really depends on how well your character has been customised....like in UO sort of. I understand the point of lvling....its just to increase attributes but the representitive for T.GEnterprises really confused me when he mentioned a second way to gain attribute points. Right now I can't understand the purpose of including lvling and y not having it skill based alone.

  Edit to JoeyNipps...dude you got it horribly wrong....there is a reason behind why most MMORPGs don't use a straight skill based system. It encourages a large degree of grinding which turns an MMORPG into a bore! That is the reason mega game developers avoided it. The stupid thing is that they attept to satisfy both the PvP fans and PvE fans with a PvE game added with limited PvP. For example wow is based for PvE fans not really PvP fans. The game doesn't really base itself on player skill but how the long the player has played with that character...the more you play the sooner you get to top lvl and the more better weapons you find. Thats ok for PvE alone not PvP. Mega game developing companies for some reason  are experimenting to get the right balance of PvP and PvE in a game to suit both the fans for each type of game style. It doesnt work that way - either build a game dedicated for the PvP fans or create a game that is dedicated to PvE....not the both.

  If you attempt the both you are attemping to balance PvE and PvP on a very fine line....just a tad little is too much and it looses balance. Point is this....a skill based system is good for competition not really for games focused mainly at PvE. A lvling based system is perfect for PvE!

  The problem with Straight skill based systems is that they encourage grinding and thats a real bore....I  appreciate another way more if it worked.
• Seeker728 Member UncommonPosts: 179

  August 2005

  Neanderthal-

  Actually, I'm not too keen on the leveling system either.

  T.GEnt-

  Thanks for addressing my post in the other thread.  Again, as I reply to your post, please understand I do so with a tone of total respect (hopefully it comes across that way, you know how posting things on a forum sometimes goes )

  I understand that a level system gives one a rod to measure progress by, as well as game world content.  But just for the sake of discussion, what do you think of a system where you retain the mechanic of gaining xps, and relevant skill points, but forego the use of levels?  These xps then are used to advance stats, skills, and if you were to include it, "modifiers"  (i.e. like the WoW talents or Feats in AD&D).

  Example:  Character starts off with X amount of points that will let him take half his stats to a couple of ticks above average (for the sake of argument, lets say the stat range is 1-20, with 10 being average).  So he invests in his physicals taking them each to 12 and leaves his mental/social at 10.  Now he goes out and adventures with some friends against a goblin nest.  In his fighting, he uses the sword more than anything else, but he also used the crossbow several times.  They gain their loot and return to base with "unspent exp".  How do they spend their exps and advance their character?  They train.

  To train they have to go to a relevant trainer and pay a fee, the more advanced the skill, the more it costs.  Each skill has it's own progression tree allowing for more refined applications of the base skill.  I.E. Basics of sword would be parry and strike.  Advanced elements would allow for disarms, striking multiple opponents, defending against multiple opponents, targeted strikes intended to reduce mobility or combat effectiveness, ect.  But the skill requires a certain mastery of the basics, and each progression of each stage.  Each stage takes more effort to master before one can move on as learning the nuances becomes more difficult. 

  In the process of training up the skill, one also conditions one's muscles and reflexes better predominately, but one could also focus on endurance or mental alertness.  So the purchase of this training allows one to advance sword skill, or some stat gains, or both, depending on how many unspent exps and money one has.  Certain levels of the sword skill will require the character to have certain minimum physical stats.  If he decides not to spend the exps/money to level his stats accordingly, he caps out as to how far he can advance his skills. 

  The question then becomes, how does one gain these exps?  If one defeats a nest of goblins for example, one gets a bit of exps per goblin slain.  The stats and skills used to slay the goblins determine what you can spend those exps on.  But wait!!  What if the character wants to evolve a skill and/or stat set that he didn't use?  He goes to a different trainer, selects the skills/stats he wants to train, but it costs more exps to advance those skills. 

  Example:  Fighterguy33 helps clear a nest of goblins with his 2 buddies.  He's been wanting to learn how to treat wounds as this is one of the natural consequences of his chosen playstyle.  The only skills he used were his fighting skills, and primarily his physical skills, but fighting goblins requires a certain degree of mental alertness.  So he has a set of exps acquired with his adventure that he can spend on his physicals or his sword skill at a 1 for 1 ratio (meaning that if he spends the exps he acquired fighting the goblins on those things used to defeat the goblins, it is at 100% efficiency towards advancing either that stat or skill set).  But he wants to learn the art of tending wounds, so lets call it Medicine for simplicity's sake.  When he gets back to town, he seeks out a trainer to teach him the art of applying bandages, the very basics of the craft as it were. 

  Since he doesn't have the skill at all, he obviously didn't use it in the process of clearing the goblin nest.  So his cost ratio is 4-1 (meaning it's only 25% cost effective.)  Lets say Medicine takes 100 exps to buy the very first stage in.  He has to spend 400 exps to learn the basics of the skill.  Later on, the more he uses that skill now that he has the basics, the better the efficiency on his return when he spends his exp to level the skill.  Now lets say that as far as Mercs go, this guy is pretty bright, bright enough that what costs the average guy 400 exps to buy Medicine only costs him 320.

  Notice how there are no levels in the character, there is only a progression in his skills and his stats.  His activities govern how efficiently he can advance what he knows, but it doesn't prevent him from broadening his existing knowledge/ability with new ones, it just means that areas he wants to branch out in take more effort to do so.

  There is a flaw with this system though, and that is the presence of the dreaded Tank-Mage.  But that's where the particulars of your magic system plays a huge role.  If you make it to where metal interferes with the flow of magic, you can limit just how much tanking they can do, also if you make it so that they have to be relatively "motionless" you prevent the alternative of the Monk-Mage.  A nice element of this skill/stat based sytem is that you can govern what spell trees a spellcaster can advance in and make it so that while he may learn aspects of magic, i.e. a summoner vs a zapper vs a healer vs a buffer, ect.

  Again, not to disparage against what you guys got so far, but if you're looking for ideas, figured I'd toss it out there for your perusal.

  Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
• T.GEnt Member Posts: 14

  August 2005

  Thank you for all your replies. This system was thought up last night so it will obviously have a lot of flaws in it at this stage. We just wanted feedback from you guys so we could improve upon it.

  The reason we wanted to go with the level based system is for a few reasons. Once of these I cant disclose due to legal reasons but if this changed we would find away around that problem. Secondly the game will involve a lot of PVE/Questing as well as PVP. The easiest way we thought of charting the progress of a character and being able to make different “zones” become progressively harder as the player evolved.

  I haven’t played U.O if anyone would like to give a detailed explanation how U.O did this I would be very grateful.

  Ill try and reply to everyone now.

  Neanderthal:
  I believe that in the real world if you put a sword in the hand of someone who has never held a sword before and you face him off against a blade master who has fought 100 duels and killed every person who has come against him 99.9% of the time the blade master will win.

  Mikey0114:
  Sorry I can’t explain a lot at this time. I know it must be hard to understand a lot of what I am typing because of this.

  We hope to have some sort of templates designed on the website for new players if they have never played before but it will only be for a few very basic classes.

  Reading your post again I just had an idea about changing the “level” system. I will talk it over tomorrow with the lead programmer.

  The reason for two ways to gain attribute points was to try and get a more realistic feel to game. In real life if you used an axe a lot you would gain strength.

  I want it to have PVP as a main part of the game but I also want PVE/Questing content.

  Froztwolf:
  I don’t think the eve system would work in our gaming world.

  Entrana:
  Thank you for your encouragement.

  JoeyNipps:
  Our system won’t stop a magic caster from using swords. There will be limitations on armour though.

  Seeker728:
  All your posts so far have been very respectful.

  Your post has a lot of info in it that I find very intriguing. Our system was thought up last night so it is in very early stages so easy to change it completely if we feel the need.
  I have phoned the Lead Programmer and he is reading your post now so I will have some more feedback on it either tonight or tomorrow.

  Again I would like to thank you all for your feedback. If someone could explain the questions I raised concerning U.O that would be great. Or any other feedback at all on this system or a system you might have that you think is better.

  I also apologize for any spelling mistakes. I’ve been up for nearly 50 hours now lol.

  Gary
  Director of T.G Enterprises
  

  T.G Enterprises. Bringing you the next Great MMORPG.
• Mikey0114 Member Posts: 310

  August 2005

  This is addressed to Seeker728 - Wow....sorry mate no offense...it could be me, but I had the hardest time understanding what you had to do say! I just spent 30 minutes going over and over what you had to say as slowly as possible...you put in way too many technicle terms.

  Anyway I will say it simple and correct me please if I am wrong cause I am sure I mis-understood some things of what you had to say...there is a flaw which I mentioned like 2 times previously in your system because it is very very similar to a straight skill based system....it encourages a great degree of grinding within the game world....this can be found as a mega bore! and this is another reason why Mega Game developing companies have probably avoided this.

  Also I felt that character customisation is possibly limited by your system more then lets say the system I proposed to them.....my proposed system had the possibility of a Warrior being a total duel wielding master swordsman, but he was weak as hell...he just had enough health to survive a few hits and stregth to carry 2 good light swords and lots of agility for dodging and criticles. His armour wasn't even metel because that required him to have a lot more stregth so he had armour (which was made purposely for melee combat) it added a little extra agility and stamina made from light materials (this could probably give him an extra bonus in agility).  So now back to the 2 swords...I proposed that the master duel wielding swordsman may obtain skills specially customised for his type of combat. Such as the manuever done in Gladiator where the main character was duel wielding and at the end of a massive fight against serveral other gladiators...the last man he beheaded with both swords. Why can't a similar skill be done like that. It may decrease attack done by both swords in duel wielding but increases chances of parry, and a few special skills. I am going in over my head...I am just letting you know that a system with tons and tons of skills and ways to customise your chacter is a way lot better then lets say swordsman skill lvl 1 and you get these certain skills.

  Maybe if possible and with a  lot of thought both our systems together may create possibilities because I took in a few good ideas....but I don't agree that we should abolish the lvling system completely. It still has its uses in some ways. I'll say it one more time... a straight skill based system will create a greate degree of grinding within the game world.
• Mikey0114 Member Posts: 310

  August 2005

  T.Gent I recommend that you are careful though with this, try to make sure that you encourage the player base to do the quests not grind first...from what I read about how you gain skill points and exp you may have to change some ideas... they also encourage grind.....

  Also there hasnt been enough purpose to lvling so there can be no feedback on that topic.

  A short note...your first post in this topic gave me the idea that your game might be a major hit if you implement tons and tons of different skills. And each skill has requirements for the character to meet as you mentioned. Also I would appreciate if I called using a sword or using a 2handed sword a skills and instead of addressing gash and impale as skills.... I will addressed them as abilities...otherwise it gets really confusing trying see what you mean when you are refering to one or the other.

  Another thing to keep in mind is the ability to decrease skill points in a skill....for example if I want to specialise in 2h sword but I reached the total skill point cap a character could possibly obtain....then I need to decrease skill points within a specific skill (lets say the Duel wield skill) to have space between my current skill point total and the skill point cap. Now UO's way to do this was that they gave us the option to downgrade a Skill's lvl of points...and slowly the skill points of that specific skill would decrease over time. This is a possible way make skill point space within a character...another way to decrease skill points but this is a bit weird and is being done by Irth Online....and it seems player enjoy it but I disagree that there are no skill caps....players are allowed to obtaine as many skill points as they please for each skill....thing is the skill points decay over time when those skills are not in use....it seems this doesn't take place when offline......there may be other ways. I need to research more on this topic of decreasing skills to make space.

  Ill write more in this post as soon as I figure out what to say!
• entrana Member Posts: 106

  August 2005

  out of curiosity i thought i would post this i was reading the posts just now and read what tg said about mages having limitations with armour and something sprung to mind.

  i havent seen this used in an mmorpg yet(as far as i know) but if any of you has played morrowind remember the bound spells?
  where you can cast a spell that summons a piece very high stat armour which is equipped for a limited amount of time then dissapears...i think this would be a good addition for mages in mmorpg's as in most games they usually lack in defensive spells (other than your run of the mill shield or resistance spells).

  
• Mikey0114 Member Posts: 310

  August 2005

  Thats actualy a very possible and cool skill....as I recommended before and would encourage them....they should try to get 100s and maybe 1000s (if its even possible) of skills into the game....it maybe crazy but it sure would make customising a character fun while lvling him up and increasing his skills points.

  T.GEnt - If no one explains to you by tommorrow in the morning the skill system UO used I will try to explain it in full detai. Not tonight cause i am dying for some sleep now :P but UO has a straight skill based system just to make you aware...no lvling. And it really encouraged a lot of grindning.

  Ill post somethings here tommorrow...goodnight all!
• Aqualung343 Member Posts: 8

  August 2005

  Hi Gary,

  Im not sure if attributes raising two seperate ways is a good system for your game.  You're right in that its more realistic, however, leveling up by definition isnt realistic. 

  Then again, it would make your system unique, but its still not that drastic of a change from whats out there in lots of MMOs. 

  Now, I happen to agree with what Mikey said about maybe killing enemies giving you XP.  I think that could be properly integrated and work well within your system.  You've talked about being able to build/defend/seige cities, which is, well, PvP.

  You said you want PvP and also PvE and Questing... I feel there should be a balance as well, of course I want a little more PvP in my game than anything else, and this also asks the question, how much grinding do you really want to be in your game?  This is a hard question.  No one wants grinding, we've all been there/done that.  But without an "end" in sight, how will you keep players in?  How dynamic will your quests systems be?

  Call me biased but I feel that the best "end game" MMOs can have is one focused on PvP. 

  But then again, Im not really answering your question am I?  I apologize.. lemme see if i can give you worthwhile feedback

  I like your system because its tried and true.  Now, if you wanna aim towards innovation because you want your MMO to be something none of us has ever seen before, maybe you should go in a different direction.  However, if you feel other aspects of your game will provide said innovation, which I think it might, go with that.

  Some last suggestions:

  I think with the faction, good/evil kind of system you seem to have (unless ive read what youve disclosed so far wrong), maybe you could give the best XP rewards for actions that serve to improve your faction.  As in, a crafter who helps build a new city is justly rewarded, as is a PvP defender, or completing a lot of faction quests..etc.

  Hope I helped.. I feel like sometimes I have a tendency to talk in circles and forget my point  
• Neanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,861

  August 2005

  I understand that my post wasn't helpful to you at all. It was just me spouting my opinion and probably didn't deserve a response at all. However, you did choose to respond. But now I think you didn't really understand what I was talking about because your response didn't make much sense in the context of what I was saying.

  You said:
  

  ---

  I believe that in the real world if you put a sword in the hand of someone who has never held a sword before and you face him off against a blade master who has fought 100 duels and killed every person who has come against him 99.9% of the time the blade master will win.

  ---

  Ok...but what does that have to do with what I said? It seems completely irrelevant to my post. If someone were talking about the dynamics of cloud formation would you respond by saying, "Yes, but elephants are the largest land animal."

  Of course a blade master should most likely win a sword duel with someone who has never held a sword before. But then again, if someone did manage to stick a sword through the blademaster he should be just as dead as the novice. If a piano falls on the head of the novice and another piano falls on the head of the blademaster they should both die from it. The blademaster shouldn't live through it just because he's been practicing with swords longer.

  But look, there's no point in this. Whether you understand my problem with leveling games or not doesn't really matter. You've already decided to go with a leveling system. I don't really want to be a jerk and keep harping on this when you've already made your decision.

  Do you have a site with some game info I could go look at? If I had a more detailed idea of what you are planning I might possibly be able to offer some constructive criticism even though I personally don't care for leveling systems.
• entrana Member Posts: 106

  August 2005

  hmm also an idea that i havent seen used would be for players to REALLY interact with with the world, for exaple say you have a miner whacking away at the walls of a remote cave and the wall in front of him crumbles opening a long forgotten dungeon.

  games need things that can be achieved by one person and benefit the whole playerbase, not just the person that caused it

  sorry im just throwing out ideas here

  
• JoeyNipps Member Posts: 186

  August 2005

  
  

  ---

  
  Originally posted by Mikey0114
  
  The problem with Straight skill based systems is that they encourage grinding and thats a real bore....I  appreciate another way more if it worked.
  

  ---

  
  

  What???  What in the name of common sense are you talking about?  There is NO correlation at all between the "type" of system used and the amount of "grinding" necessary.  In point of fact, there has been ONLY one pure skill based MMORPG so far (UO).  Further, GRIND was introduced and perfected by EQ which was a level based system!  Please don't confuse the issue with incorrect statements like that.

  Let me say it again.  There is NO correlation between the "type" of system (level or skill or mix) and the amount of "grinding" necessary to improve.  The "grind" as it is tended to be meant is due to other design factors in the game - not the improvement system.
  

  If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
• JoeyNipps Member Posts: 186

  August 2005

  
  

  ---

  
  Originally posted by T.GEnt
  
  Secondly the game will involve a lot of PVE/Questing as well as PVP. The easiest way we thought of charting the progress of a character and being able to make different “zones” become progressively harder as the player evolved.
  I haven’t played U.O if anyone would like to give a detailed explanation how U.O did this I would be very grateful.
  

  ---

  
  

  Well, it is your game so do what you want.  But I "assumed" you wanted to make a game that was in some way different and better than ALL the others out there.

  Why do you feel it is necessary to "chart the progress..." which allows you to "make different zones become progressively harder..."?  This is what all games do and it is part of what is wrong with them.  This makes them horribly linear:  new player can only "be" in one or two zones, then he must go to the next zone(s) to fight "harder" creatures (thus has no reason to ever go back into the old zone), etc., etc.  Real life does not have zones nor do creatures segregate themselves into little geographical niches based on their "difficulty".  Break the mold - yes level IS easy - that is why developer after developer does it!  Just because it is easy - NOT because it makes sense or is better or is fun or any other reason.

  Don't do zones like this.  I suspect you WILL do zones (as opposed to a zoneless world) because this is much easier to program.  BUT that is no reason to segregate your mobs in that manner as well.  Spread them around in a "natural" manner - tough rhinos mixed in with wimpy bunny rabbits - that is what UO did.  It worked wonderfully.

  Design your world as IF it were a real one - populate it as if it were a REAL one.  Then players can adventure and play in it in any manner they wish.  The way ALL zoned game worlds are today forces players to play the game in a very linear manner JUST as the developer laid it out - no freedom.

  Now to the second part.  What UO did.  A detailed explanation would take some serious real estate - so I will give you the thumbnail and you can ask questions about what isn't apparent.

  Player is presented with stats (strength, dex, etc.) and sets these as he sees fit.  He then enters the world (whether he starts with some skill points or not is irrelevant as it is only a balance and starting point issue with your game).  There are a multitude of skills (I suspect you have more than UO but again not the point).  The PC then "does" things in the game world - chops a tree, swings a sword, makes a fire, cooks meat over the fire, etc..  The appropriate PC skills then proceed to increase in response to "practice" or "useage".  Further stats (strength, etc.) are tied to skill use so appropriate stats rise also (strength goes up if you swing an axe a lot but not if you practice casting spells for example).  The game has limits to prevent skills from going up "too" fast (developer must decide this balance issue).  Further each PC has a maximum limit of total skill points to prevent any given PC from being able to "master" ALL the skills in the game (another balance issue to be worked out depending upon developer preference).  If a skill isn't used or practiced for too long that skill begins to degrade slowly (I believe this was removed from the game at a later date but should be there).  That is about it at least insofar as skills is concerned.  I might add that the original UO concept would be greatly improved in a modern game with a larger group of skills to choose from - but that is another matter. 

  This system is natural and easy for any player to understand because this is precisely how learning skills in real life is - thus players automatically will understand the function - the rest is balance issues.  No levels to worry about - not needed.

  The UO world was essentially zoneless (not as zoned as EQ for example) but more to the point the creatures and NPCs inhabiting the world were spread in a more believable manner - not set in place where you knew precisely where the "bunny" or "bear" or whatever would be - same spot every time.  In UO the mobs moved and fluxed in fairly believable manner.  The Orcs might have a camp near Brittania one day and not appear there (or not very close) for several days in row.  For a simple example:  when I went looking for birds to kill (they dropped feathers needed for arrows) it was actually fun because I could find them pretty much all over the game world but more importantly I never knew precisely when I would run into one or a flock of them.  The creature populations were MUCH more realiistically deployed than in EQ or any other game I have played so far.

  There you have it - questions?
  

  If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
• Froztwolf Member Posts: 56

  August 2005

  I agree with JoeyNipps. I fail to see how a level based system will reduce grinding. In fact I do belive there will be grinding in MMOs as long as there are actions who give rewards. Even in EVEs' skill based system there is grinding, only it is for ingame currency and not character advancement.
  Even then, grinding doesn't have to be a bad thing in and of itself. The fact that a game contains something that player can grind if they wish to progress faster is not neccesarily bad. To force players to do so in order to remain competitive is.
  To prevent this is especially important in PvP oriented games and for that purpose either a skill/level cap can be used or you can create the game in such a way that a mid-level character has a good fighting chance against a high-level character, pending player skill or superior numbers. 4 players in a group should always be able to stand at least an even chance in a fight against a single character, no matter how much more advanced that character is. In short: make the advancements at each level smaller.
  Of course capping character progression introduces another problem. The players don't want to stop advancing their characters just because they have reached max level. A lot of games solve this with special hero classes, feats, ability points and other bonuses that take a long time to earn but people still seem to get frequently bored after maxing out their character.
  Whatever you do, don't force people to do PvE before they can participate for real in PvP.
  I say give people XP for PvPing, give them a fighting chance to jump into PvP as soon as they make their character and they will be having so much fun killing their friends and raiding their outposts that levelling will become an afterthought. In EVE most pirates have very little to gain and very much to lose by doing PvP but they do it anyway because it is why they picked up the game to begin with.
• Mikey0114 Member Posts: 310

  August 2005

  OK Joey...I think I understand what you mean but I have to be honest I thought that to improve my swordsmanship to the max (in UO) I would start by being given lessons and then have to go and kill MOBs constantly untill I reached the Skill Point cap for that skill (swordsmanship)....thats
  what I understood was called grinding....if I am wrong then I am sorry. I read what you said about (The game has limits to prevent skills from going up "too" fast) When I and my friends played UO it was very easy and quick to reach the skill cap for lets say swordsmanship and those....just took some hours of non stop killing MOBs mainly the same MOBs....I dont remember there being limits....sorry for the misunderstanding if there were limits.

  As for a game world with no Instances or Zones...I love the idea...instead of newbie zones you have some starting villages maybe close to each other with the easier monsters running about outside these villages. The villages can be located in a safe area, heavilly protected by NPC guards so as to protect the weak from raiding parties. Then when you decide your character is good enough and has some skill worth keeping him alive you leave the newbie villages and move on to your capital or explore  the more unsafe areas of the game world. The game world could be as you said...with hard and easy mobs all mixed in all the other locations (outside the newbie lands) of the game world.
  This probably sends a good feel of reality to PvP fans....and lets face it, these Instanced and Zoned worlds are becomming very unpopular witht the PvP fan community.
  I have to totally agree with Joeynipps about this!

  Anyway you explained the UO system very well....and I didn't know that UO had at one time included the feature of skill decay within its system....this definitley makes a good effect on a game with a skill based system...especially to seize players from continously grinding, cause they have to face the truth...there really is no point to it to reaching the skill cap.
  I don't know if you would agree with this but it should seize the decaying of skills when the Player is offline.

  As for lvling for this game T.G Enterprises is making....I agree for now....I don't see a point in the lvling system...but I wouldn't abolish the idea completely....unless it really isn't necassary.
  I would wait and see what T.G Enterprises have come up with and then give proper feedback on what I think about the lvling system.

  Now as regards to what Froztwolf said - I recommend you try out World of Warcraft....they managed to get rid of grinding.
  What they did was award very little exp for killing MOBs...and lots of Exp for completing quests. I like that idea and for a PvP orientated game with some PvE and Questing included I think the game needs to find a way to encourage players to quest and PvP more then kill MOBs to increase their skills and attributes. I think a good purpose of MOBs being present in the game world is for hunting purposes....mainly for their loot, since T.G Enterprises did mention they are going to have a very detailed crafting system though he didn't say more then that.

  As for your idea on making a Player Character instantly be able to go out and PvP from the start....in Joeynipps' idea of a game world I believe that is impossible. You would definitley require instancing and zones.

  Now as for several players having a fighting chance in their mid range of stength....if you didn't read previous posts, this game is really skill based...the lvling is their just as a number and awards you with attribute points which you yourself disbtribute around your character.
  This in the end means that your character is fully customisable.... and so if I properly and successfuly customised a character with skills and abilities to take on attack multiple players at once...I may take you all out depending on how good I am with my character aswell as how good i customised my character.
  Then again if I customised a character which is great for dueling in one on one....I probably will not stand a chance of surviving serveral players which are on me all at once. These are the possibilties I think this game could possibly offer with the right improvement system.

  Now finally as for your idea of a character reaching the max lvl and the characters shouldn't stop there in my opinion is not necassary at all...lvling is just lvling...its a number and in this game you use lvling just to increase your character attributes points and you yourself have to place those attribute points in the right areas...its not automatically done for you.
  I think there should be a limit to how far a character should improve his stats....then that player may start a new character or experiment with his fully lvled character with new skills and stuff to see what he may come up with. I don't like the way big MMORPGs like WoW have deicided to limit characters from being customised...all they added was quite a useless talent tree which didn't make characters so different from eachother.
• Froztwolf Member Posts: 56

  August 2005

  Have you even played WoW yourself? It is nothing but grinding. Only instead of farming you are grinding quests all the time. Reason I quit playing it. And if you want to do any real PvP you had better spend a few weeks grinding quests to max out a char or you wont stand a chance.
  As to having small XP for mobs and alot for quests, GW does this to the extreme and it bothers me. I don't want to be forced to do quests to advance my char. Sometimes I just want to go out and kill something.

  When I say I want a char to be able to run in PvP right away I mean not just against another newbs. This ties in with my opinion the the strength gap between max and min level should be reduced. Even if you are a blade master who has been practicing for 50 years and can control blades with the thought alone, you will still be seriously injured if a 16 year old kid comes up to you from the behind and stabs you through a gap in your armor. He wouldn't stand a chance in 1on1 but can really harm you using the right tactics.
  I did read the previous posts and understand the fact that the game is skill based. However, this can also be applied to how much extra power the skills give you. What I'm suggesting is that with all the strongest combat skills maxed out you would gain a very strong edge but never completely dominate anyone or be invulnerable to him, regardless of level/skill difference.

  "I think there should be a limit to how far a character should improve his stats....then that player may start a new character or experiment with his fully lvled character with new skills and stuff to see what he may come up with."
  Ok, you can't tell someone "hey you have reached the max level, please roll a new char", so I am going to ignore that part if the sentence.
  I agree a skill based system that allowed untraining would allow people to continue to refine the char even when max level is reached. However, the character is not progressing, just changing and a lot of players are unhappy about that. They want to be rewarded for any further actions just like they have been from the time they started the char. This artificial restraint rings false for them.