I see that you don't have a clue about wow pvp. If so like you said we will not have almost always same teams at top in arena pvp, 2vs2, 3vs3 or 5vs5. Almost all guys over 2k rating have same top pvp gear and we cant say that this guys have some advantage in any way except in skills of playing. It is sbout fast reaction, taking care about cd-s and knowing all classes to be able to counter attack. You have all classes in top teams now- druids, mages, locks, priests, paladins, hunters, shamans, so i don't see any class missing there. For example--Blackout battlegroup we have now at top in 2vs2-- 1.Lock-Shaman. 2.Rogue-Priest. 3.Druid-Paladin exct. But if you look names you will find this guys always at the top.Conclusion-YES you need skills and expirience and not only fast reaction like in fps, you need knowledge and skills, it is science not luck
I never said chess players are not athletic but comparing a video gamer to chess player no sorry not going to accept that.
Cool, your opinion is pretty well thought out. It would be better if you didn't try to refute someone else's without any real reason.
It's cool to have your own opinion, it's even cool to weigh in on someone else's. It isn't cool to simply dismiss someone else's opinion if your only reason is that it is different than yours.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
I never said chess players are not athletic but comparing a video gamer to chess player no sorry not going to accept that.
Cool, your opinion is pretty well thought out. It would be better if you didn't try to refute someone else's without any real reason.
It's cool to have your own opinion, it's even cool to weigh in on someone else's. It isn't cool to simply dismiss someone else's opinion if your only reason is that it is different than yours.
Just like he dismissed my opinion by saying i am playing the wrong games? allright..you got me.
I never said chess players are not athletic but comparing a video gamer to chess player no sorry not going to accept that.
Cool, your opinion is pretty well thought out. It would be better if you didn't try to refute someone else's without any real reason.
It's cool to have your own opinion, it's even cool to weigh in on someone else's. It isn't cool to simply dismiss someone else's opinion if your only reason is that it is different than yours.
Just like he dismissed my opinion by saying i am playing the wrong games? allright..you got me.
*rolls eyes*
you are, though.
if you're playing games where you don't have to think, you're either playing very simple games or you don't do much pvp. see, pve i can see why you don't think. but i think you'd be hard-pressed to find a gamer who only plays games they don't find challenging.
you are, therefore, playing the wrong kinds of games or in the wrong way. do you spend a lot of time crafting?
i suggest before telling us how games are not as challenging as chess, that you play a few more instead of relying on possible pve wow? or you at least wear some greens into wow pvp midway through the season. and try eve. everyone should at least try it. even i tried it. i don't play it as much as you'd think, but i kind of prefer a fantasy setting to my games.
i dismissed your argument entirely because you display an elitist and irrational distaste of gamers and gaming in general that borders on ignorant as it demonstrated a lack of experience if you wish to maintain the view you had.
a chess player has an interesting mind, but it's a mind of memory. a gamer has to master memory and combine that with a whole variety of other skills. while playing poker and chess have their own skills, i'd put it to you that some games require those skills AND more. it's not just twitch these days. chess has extremely limited moves. gaming is something else.
seriously, i have a great deal of respect for chess players. they'd kick my butt at chess, i'm sure. wouldn't take much. but i reckon i could kick theirs in an mmo of their choosing. or fps. and i don't think i'd need to know any "metagame" to do it.
everything, whether it's skateboarding, shooting targets, chess, or gaming, involves skills of its own to master.
get your head out of the sand is what i'm saying.
only one thing in this whole thread is an example of a skill-less activity in gaming, and that's time. time you spend in-game should in no way be rewarded with gear. wow rewards your time with gear. it doesn't reward your skill.
time should help you master your skills. but, i maintain, shouldn't reward you with an iwin button that defeats the purpose of actually improving your skills.
so, be braver. accept the challenge. it's so much more fun when they can hit you back...
Originally posted by Loke666 There is clearly 2 things in MMOs that matters, how good you actually play and how good your toon is. That some people prefer one or the other is only natural.
I really don't see this as an "OR" statement. It's "AND" all the way.
Originally posted by palulalula I see that you don't have a clue about wow pvp. If so like you said we will not have almost always same teams at top in arena pvp, 2vs2, 3vs3 or 5vs5. Almost all guys over 2k rating have same top pvp gear and we cant say that this guys have some advantage in any way except in skills of playing. It is sbout fast reaction, taking care about cd-s and knowing all classes to be able to counter attack. You have all classes in top teams now- druids, mages, locks, priests, paladins, hunters, shamans, so i don't see any class missing there. For example--Blackout battlegroup we have now at top in 2vs2-- 1.Lock-Shaman. 2.Rogue-Priest. 3.Druid-Paladin exct. But if you look names you will find this guys always at the top.Conclusion-YES you need skills and expirience and not only fast reaction like in fps, you need knowledge and skills, it is science not luck
I have to agree with this, At both the very entry levels and again at the very top levels in almost any MMO, It's more about skill than anything else since going into the fights, all things are pretty equal.
Lol w0t? It's only FPS. Go play Starcraft 2 and lets see if you can get into grandmaster league. But again I am pretty sure I will be the one laughing when you can't even get into gold league. That game is all about player skill.
You can call it 'skill', but to me it's far more a matter of game knowledge (through experiece), and as the OP suggested,
patterned choices you make to maximize efficiency.
In the case of RTS's, success can be measured to a large degree on either figuring out, or reading about, the optimal unit balance and the quickest/most efficient means of building them.
I have absolutely no doubt I'd get crushed by the "masters" of games like Starcraft, but it has far less to do with skill (as I define the term) and far more to do with their experience with the game and how well they research the best ways to win.
Even in real life, intelligence makes one man no more valuable a human than the next. Although the world seems to be impressed by people who can jump higher, run faster, or solve complex math problems rapidly, those people are no more important (arguably less) than many of the "lesser" capable grunts working jobs which are requirements for what society considers "modern living" such as electricians, chinese factory workers, farmers, and plumbers.
Finally, I'd just like to add that even though I am a huge nerd, I still think people who "pro play" any video game are a laughing stock and a shame on the gaming scene solely because they are exploiting game mechanics and programming balance instead of providing themselves with a form of entertainment focused on having fun as opposed to competition. Although it is fun for them (the only reason I dont think ill of them or suggest NOT having said tournament) I still think it is all quite the joke.
Of course, this is also coming from the same person who thinks those who worship celebrities and make sport players their personal heroes are what I would call the "bottom of the gene pool". No offense, but LOL @ being payed millions and become worshiped for being able to run really fast or catch a ball better than other people. Although I am probably an "elitist" I think that REAL heroes deserve the credit and self-obsessed people who do nothing for society but "pro play" do more harm than good. I mean, it's not like the best teachers are payed millions of dollars and drafted to "pro teach" or anything. Right? Right? It's not like public education suffers due to low pay and atheltic scholarships often trump any form of intellectual persuit. Right? Right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
So what your telling me is your worth as much to society as Einstein was?
So because people took a hobby and turned in into competition and job/career they are a laughing stock? How do you think most sports got started? How about CCG's like M:TG? Maybe you've never won anything. I think most people started in little league sports and got more competitive and wanted to win.
Maybe you don't know what a real hero is. A real hero doesn't want the credit. He/she did something because they wanted to, regardless of recognition. If you think that atheletes don't do anything, I think your sorely mistaken on how many jobs are gotten because of their ability. Do a little research into how many people are employed within a professional atheletic team before you go spouting at the mouth about things you have no clue about. Without them a ton of money would live a city, look at Cleveland and how many businesses had to downsize when Lebron left for example.
I have to agree with this, At both the very entry levels and again at the very top levels in almost any MMO, It's more about skill than anything else since going into the fights, all things are pretty equal.
Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
I really don't see this as an "OR" statement. It's "AND" all the way.
Forgot to take your pills?
Anyways, as you correctly point out, you have it, people like you have successfully cryed for years until everything that would disrupt your gaming experience was removed, loosing a part of the players and making the games a joke complexity-wise in the process.
Good job!
So what do you still have a effing problem with? Still not satisfied? Not skilled enough to be able to be "top-level gamer"? Do we remove levels, gear and talents next?
Today's Esports or whatever you choose to call them are yesterdays neighborhood basketball and baseball games. Today, kids sit in front of a tv on an xbor or playstation or in front of a pc and screen, and are rather sedentary, yesterday kids went out, got fresh air, played ball, hocky, war games in the woods, were really quite active.
It is what it is. IMHO player skill, Pro Play, L33tness, and all that other "hip" kid speak just implies you have sat infront of your gaming system for an awful long time.
I have absolutely no doubt I'd get crushed by the "masters" of games like Starcraft, but it has far less to do with skill (as I define the term) and far more to do with their experience with the game and how well they research the best ways to win.
So by your definition, no 'skill' exists then, in any game or sport. Because, believe it or not, all the olympic winners and master musicians, are so good because of muscle memory and training.. it is no different than someone clicking a mouse, as strange as it may sound.
I find the whole topic pretty pointless really, is the OP trying to say that a maxed player with cash shop buffs pressing 1 button to kill a whole team of green noobs equally good to someone who fairly defeated his oponent in a 1 on 1 duel, using an identical char? That is the definition of 'skill'.
It's not about being elitist or any of that crap (myself I suck at PvP), it's about recognition of talent and skill in others. Is the OP basically saying that some fat guy with lots of money buying a gold medal is equally good to a hard working athlet who won one through skill? No he is not.
There is not a shadow of a doubt that memorizing spawns, perfecting your click patterns, and reflexes all count towards skill, but relying solely on +xxx items and cash shop buffs to gank noobs - is no skill at all. And it can be proven in a simple way.
I can easily get to max level, buy best gear, and kill some newbie who has no such gear/level. *Anyone can do that*. However, go win a tournament, on fair grounds, can you? If no skill is involved, how come we all don't have gold medals? That's what defines skill, it's how hard it is to achieve a goal and how good you are at getting there.
And this is why FPS/Strategy etc games are skill based, while MMO's are not (since there is no balance). Guild Wars 2 will possibly be the first skill based MMO PvP system, due to equality in gear. But that remains to be seen.
I always thought it was funny when people almost raged when talking about "Player Skill"
I used to think that too. Then I stepped back and thought that maybe those people truly aren't that skilled at anything in real life, so pressing 1, then 2, then 3 on a keyboard in a raid (while being able to concentrate on that incredible task for all of 5 minutes) is pretty much the best they can do. It made sense to me that they would feel pride in this "skill" they have and as humans, they would assume that nobody but a select few have that capability because we all want to feel special at something.
Let the pro gamers be pro, it a lifestyle choice that will come back and bit their older years health in the butt. Day in day out for years sitting will do it's damage. Most these pro gamrs eat diets of crap that will further come back to bite them in the ass.
I never said chess players are not athletic but comparing a video gamer to chess player no sorry not going to accept that.
Cool, your opinion is pretty well thought out. It would be better if you didn't try to refute someone else's without any real reason.
It's cool to have your own opinion, it's even cool to weigh in on someone else's. It isn't cool to simply dismiss someone else's opinion if your only reason is that it is different than yours.
Just like he dismissed my opinion by saying i am playing the wrong games? allright..you got me.
*rolls eyes*
you are, though.
*snipped for rambling*
Sure... if it makes you feel better sure. But i yet have to come across a video game which requires real thinking and strategy like chess. By the way evena chess player has to master memory..before you call me elitist i suggest have a look in mirror. Your whole post reeks of it.
I don't think you give enough credit to player skills. Especially in gaming.
You seem to think they are a joke or some sort of gimmick. Well there are two things to consider before laughing or joking about professional gamers. First and foremost, professionals DO NOT sit at home on their couches all day playing games. There are various groups of players who give interviews and blogs and they show that it takes plenty of hard work and almost sort of a business ethics to even get to the top.
Secondly, the reason why they are so praised is because of where they are. You have to understand that these professionals, no matter how lame, are competing at levels way beyond what normal gamers do. To this you may laugh, but do understand, they are professionals because they have consitently outplayed the majority of the human race. Think about that, roughly 7 billion people on this world, and only a handful are capable of playing at their level.
It doesn't matter if you play a game or a sport, what matters is that even on this crowded ass planet, they can do something better than 99.9% of the people.
What's worse is that you undermine intelligence... do you really not understand that it takes a whole cluster of high intelligence to get as far as we did with the human race? It isn't just some guy who reads a textbook and scores a better grade, it's about some guy who thought of something that NO ONE else on the planet is able to think about. That is why professionals in ALL sorts of fields are praised.
The closest I've come to finding a video game that really requires skill is 2D Fighters, but even those can have huge imbalances in character power & other really minute nuances with character design. Although give a player a lifetime challenging real players with a bottom tier character, and he can beat skilled players who use top tier characters.
As wikipedia would say.... "A skill is the learned capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both."
Nowhere does it say.... unless you exploited... etc.. etc..
A skill is not determined by some f'ing panel of judges. You gain skills through personal development. This equates to investing time and lots of it, in most cases.
If someone is better at something than you.... Anything at all... it could be eating cereal faster than you.... guess what? They are more skilled than you are in that area. Does it matter how they became master cereal eaters? Of course not, why would it. All that matters is they are better than you. Accept it... or make stupid threads and be bashed into eternity for making no sense.
These people have skills. Athletes, gamers, politicians, engineers, laborers, etc... all skilled in what they do. Some better than others. And they compete ALL THE TIME! So why are you trying to burn skilled gamers at the stake? Is this some stupid personal witch hunt because of something that has happened to you? I'm no psychiatrist but you sound severely butthurt (I'd use another word but it fits).
Once again... pointless thread is pointless (in case you missed it the first time)
Quake Live is the most skill intense FPS i've ever played. Watch this video where a pro Quake Live player analyzes his tactics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdkDjsBiO58 You cant say that doesnt take skill now can you? You see the same players on all those pro tournies because the entry level is just so high. I bet 90% of the viewers in this thread would get outfragged 30 - 0 against an "ok" quake dueler.
Just like any action game, when you get down to the competitive level, or even just jump into any battleground/arena, you get people having seizures at their keyboards.
The OP was somewhat off. It's not bugs/exploits that are the problem. It's physical exertion. Most games played at the competitive level end up having players compete at physical prowess at the keyboard/mouse more than anything else, even when the genre isn't supposed to cater to that sort of competition at all (RPGs, strategy games, etc.).
Comments
I see that you don't have a clue about wow pvp. If so like you said we will not have almost always same teams at top in arena pvp, 2vs2, 3vs3 or 5vs5. Almost all guys over 2k rating have same top pvp gear and we cant say that this guys have some advantage in any way except in skills of playing. It is sbout fast reaction, taking care about cd-s and knowing all classes to be able to counter attack. You have all classes in top teams now- druids, mages, locks, priests, paladins, hunters, shamans, so i don't see any class missing there. For example--Blackout battlegroup we have now at top in 2vs2-- 1.Lock-Shaman. 2.Rogue-Priest. 3.Druid-Paladin exct. But if you look names you will find this guys always at the top.Conclusion-YES you need skills and expirience and not only fast reaction like in fps, you need knowledge and skills, it is science not luck
Cool, your opinion is pretty well thought out. It would be better if you didn't try to refute someone else's without any real reason.
It's cool to have your own opinion, it's even cool to weigh in on someone else's. It isn't cool to simply dismiss someone else's opinion if your only reason is that it is different than yours.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Just like he dismissed my opinion by saying i am playing the wrong games? allright..you got me.
*rolls eyes*
Sounds like the OP got owned by someone in PVP
you are, though.
if you're playing games where you don't have to think, you're either playing very simple games or you don't do much pvp. see, pve i can see why you don't think. but i think you'd be hard-pressed to find a gamer who only plays games they don't find challenging.
you are, therefore, playing the wrong kinds of games or in the wrong way. do you spend a lot of time crafting?
i suggest before telling us how games are not as challenging as chess, that you play a few more instead of relying on possible pve wow? or you at least wear some greens into wow pvp midway through the season. and try eve. everyone should at least try it. even i tried it. i don't play it as much as you'd think, but i kind of prefer a fantasy setting to my games.
i dismissed your argument entirely because you display an elitist and irrational distaste of gamers and gaming in general that borders on ignorant as it demonstrated a lack of experience if you wish to maintain the view you had.
a chess player has an interesting mind, but it's a mind of memory. a gamer has to master memory and combine that with a whole variety of other skills. while playing poker and chess have their own skills, i'd put it to you that some games require those skills AND more. it's not just twitch these days. chess has extremely limited moves. gaming is something else.
seriously, i have a great deal of respect for chess players. they'd kick my butt at chess, i'm sure. wouldn't take much. but i reckon i could kick theirs in an mmo of their choosing. or fps. and i don't think i'd need to know any "metagame" to do it.
everything, whether it's skateboarding, shooting targets, chess, or gaming, involves skills of its own to master.
get your head out of the sand is what i'm saying.
only one thing in this whole thread is an example of a skill-less activity in gaming, and that's time. time you spend in-game should in no way be rewarded with gear. wow rewards your time with gear. it doesn't reward your skill.
time should help you master your skills. but, i maintain, shouldn't reward you with an iwin button that defeats the purpose of actually improving your skills.
so, be braver. accept the challenge. it's so much more fun when they can hit you back...
I really don't see this as an "OR" statement. It's "AND" all the way.
I have to agree with this, At both the very entry levels and again at the very top levels in almost any MMO, It's more about skill than anything else since going into the fights, all things are pretty equal.
You can call it 'skill', but to me it's far more a matter of game knowledge (through experiece), and as the OP suggested,
patterned choices you make to maximize efficiency.
In the case of RTS's, success can be measured to a large degree on either figuring out, or reading about, the optimal unit balance and the quickest/most efficient means of building them.
I have absolutely no doubt I'd get crushed by the "masters" of games like Starcraft, but it has far less to do with skill (as I define the term) and far more to do with their experience with the game and how well they research the best ways to win.
So what your telling me is your worth as much to society as Einstein was?
So because people took a hobby and turned in into competition and job/career they are a laughing stock? How do you think most sports got started? How about CCG's like M:TG? Maybe you've never won anything. I think most people started in little league sports and got more competitive and wanted to win.
Maybe you don't know what a real hero is. A real hero doesn't want the credit. He/she did something because they wanted to, regardless of recognition. If you think that atheletes don't do anything, I think your sorely mistaken on how many jobs are gotten because of their ability. Do a little research into how many people are employed within a professional atheletic team before you go spouting at the mouth about things you have no clue about. Without them a ton of money would live a city, look at Cleveland and how many businesses had to downsize when Lebron left for example.
Forgot to take your pills?
Anyways, as you correctly point out, you have it, people like you have successfully cryed for years until everything that would disrupt your gaming experience was removed, loosing a part of the players and making the games a joke complexity-wise in the process.
Good job!
So what do you still have a effing problem with? Still not satisfied? Not skilled enough to be able to be "top-level gamer"? Do we remove levels, gear and talents next?
Flame on!
Today's Esports or whatever you choose to call them are yesterdays neighborhood basketball and baseball games. Today, kids sit in front of a tv on an xbor or playstation or in front of a pc and screen, and are rather sedentary, yesterday kids went out, got fresh air, played ball, hocky, war games in the woods, were really quite active.
It is what it is. IMHO player skill, Pro Play, L33tness, and all that other "hip" kid speak just implies you have sat infront of your gaming system for an awful long time.
So by your definition, no 'skill' exists then, in any game or sport. Because, believe it or not, all the olympic winners and master musicians, are so good because of muscle memory and training.. it is no different than someone clicking a mouse, as strange as it may sound.
I find the whole topic pretty pointless really, is the OP trying to say that a maxed player with cash shop buffs pressing 1 button to kill a whole team of green noobs equally good to someone who fairly defeated his oponent in a 1 on 1 duel, using an identical char? That is the definition of 'skill'.
It's not about being elitist or any of that crap (myself I suck at PvP), it's about recognition of talent and skill in others. Is the OP basically saying that some fat guy with lots of money buying a gold medal is equally good to a hard working athlet who won one through skill? No he is not.
There is not a shadow of a doubt that memorizing spawns, perfecting your click patterns, and reflexes all count towards skill, but relying solely on +xxx items and cash shop buffs to gank noobs - is no skill at all. And it can be proven in a simple way.
I can easily get to max level, buy best gear, and kill some newbie who has no such gear/level. *Anyone can do that*. However, go win a tournament, on fair grounds, can you? If no skill is involved, how come we all don't have gold medals? That's what defines skill, it's how hard it is to achieve a goal and how good you are at getting there.
And this is why FPS/Strategy etc games are skill based, while MMO's are not (since there is no balance). Guild Wars 2 will possibly be the first skill based MMO PvP system, due to equality in gear. But that remains to be seen.
My Guild Wars 2 First Beta Weekend "reviewette" : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4944570/thread/349125#4944570
I used to think that too. Then I stepped back and thought that maybe those people truly aren't that skilled at anything in real life, so pressing 1, then 2, then 3 on a keyboard in a raid (while being able to concentrate on that incredible task for all of 5 minutes) is pretty much the best they can do. It made sense to me that they would feel pride in this "skill" they have and as humans, they would assume that nobody but a select few have that capability because we all want to feel special at something.
Sounds like someone is mad that they aren't as good as other people in games.
I'm just like, "Damn, thanks for sharing that with us man."
Now, everybody give em a hand, don't you think that was brave?
To just step to the stage? And express all that inner rage,
In front of a bunch of total strangers? Whoo! Don't you feel better?"
I was rarely feelin you my friend,
Like those sad movies where everyone cries at the end.
- Max normal
I felt it applied to the situation perfectly.
Thing I find most disturbing is that both players camp "skill ones" and "slower-semi-turn-based" one both throw poop at them selves.
Lately 'skill' based backers are more active and trash-talk players who enjoy other type of gameplay ,but well both 'camps' are at fault.
There is no universally better gameplay style , just people preferences. Some want twitch based , some more strategical , patience, etc style.
Let the pro gamers be pro, it a lifestyle choice that will come back and bit their older years health in the butt. Day in day out for years sitting will do it's damage. Most these pro gamrs eat diets of crap that will further come back to bite them in the ass.
Sure... if it makes you feel better sure. But i yet have to come across a video game which requires real thinking and strategy like chess. By the way evena chess player has to master memory..before you call me elitist i suggest have a look in mirror. Your whole post reeks of it.
I don't think you give enough credit to player skills. Especially in gaming.
You seem to think they are a joke or some sort of gimmick. Well there are two things to consider before laughing or joking about professional gamers. First and foremost, professionals DO NOT sit at home on their couches all day playing games. There are various groups of players who give interviews and blogs and they show that it takes plenty of hard work and almost sort of a business ethics to even get to the top.
Secondly, the reason why they are so praised is because of where they are. You have to understand that these professionals, no matter how lame, are competing at levels way beyond what normal gamers do. To this you may laugh, but do understand, they are professionals because they have consitently outplayed the majority of the human race. Think about that, roughly 7 billion people on this world, and only a handful are capable of playing at their level.
It doesn't matter if you play a game or a sport, what matters is that even on this crowded ass planet, they can do something better than 99.9% of the people.
What's worse is that you undermine intelligence... do you really not understand that it takes a whole cluster of high intelligence to get as far as we did with the human race? It isn't just some guy who reads a textbook and scores a better grade, it's about some guy who thought of something that NO ONE else on the planet is able to think about. That is why professionals in ALL sorts of fields are praised.
WoW is a gear based MMO. What did you expect? lol
The closest I've come to finding a video game that really requires skill is 2D Fighters, but even those can have huge imbalances in character power & other really minute nuances with character design. Although give a player a lifetime challenging real players with a bottom tier character, and he can beat skilled players who use top tier characters.
Pointless thread is Pointless...
As wikipedia would say.... "A skill is the learned capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both."
Nowhere does it say.... unless you exploited... etc.. etc..
A skill is not determined by some f'ing panel of judges. You gain skills through personal development. This equates to investing time and lots of it, in most cases.
If someone is better at something than you.... Anything at all... it could be eating cereal faster than you.... guess what? They are more skilled than you are in that area. Does it matter how they became master cereal eaters? Of course not, why would it. All that matters is they are better than you. Accept it... or make stupid threads and be bashed into eternity for making no sense.
These people have skills. Athletes, gamers, politicians, engineers, laborers, etc... all skilled in what they do. Some better than others. And they compete ALL THE TIME! So why are you trying to burn skilled gamers at the stake? Is this some stupid personal witch hunt because of something that has happened to you? I'm no psychiatrist but you sound severely butthurt (I'd use another word but it fits).
Once again... pointless thread is pointless (in case you missed it the first time)
Quake Live is the most skill intense FPS i've ever played. Watch this video where a pro Quake Live player analyzes his tactics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdkDjsBiO58 You cant say that doesnt take skill now can you? You see the same players on all those pro tournies because the entry level is just so high. I bet 90% of the viewers in this thread would get outfragged 30 - 0 against an "ok" quake dueler.
Not competitively it isn't.
Just like any action game, when you get down to the competitive level, or even just jump into any battleground/arena, you get people having seizures at their keyboards.
The OP was somewhat off. It's not bugs/exploits that are the problem. It's physical exertion. Most games played at the competitive level end up having players compete at physical prowess at the keyboard/mouse more than anything else, even when the genre isn't supposed to cater to that sort of competition at all (RPGs, strategy games, etc.).
all the "skills" you earn playing videogame will surely pay off once zombies become a reality.