Story should never be the main focus of an MMO. EVER
What about FFXI and Lotro? Their primary driving focus is STORY and they do it really well. 2 of my favorite MMOs, ever. Story is NOT the issue in SWTOR, by the by. It's everything else. Or lack of.
I never said story shouldnt be in an MMO. I good story is needed. But it should never be the driving factor in an MMO. Single player RPG's need the story.
In XI the story was great, but it wasnt the driving factor of the game.
MMO's need to focus on a world, and community, and meaningful content. Story's end, even a great story ends, and they end fast. After they end you have nothing but filler content left, thats whay it should never be the main focus. A world never ends. A community can thrive for a long time. Meaningful content has become a lost art.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I hope as far as lore goes they do it right. But I REALLY hope they don't do story telling, as in trying to make your character the sole focus and hero. We have enough of those theme park games to choke a horse.
Sandbox would be great. Give us an open world with multiple starting areas for each race and let us decide our adventure.
I think they would do really well if they play to their strengths and craft an epic storyline involving mannequins who have been brought to some form of life, but without those pesky emotions. Also every character shouldn't have more than 3 things to say.
If they were to attempt a story where the npc's carrying it along are required to show emotion, there might be problems.
I don't really think great story telling when I think of Bethesda, I think vast open worlds with lots to do and explore.
Thank god for that, the story is the least part of an MMO, open worlds, lots to do and explore sounds just fine to me.
Yeah, but that still isn't the focus of an MMO: The point of playing with other people is to either have content that is challenging enough to explore with them, or play against them.
You could have an MMO with vast content to explore.. but it will in the end just be a singleplayer game with a subscription fee.
Of course if your combat is so drab that, regardless of the degree of challenge of your content, you're bored to tears actually doing it, you're not in a much better position.
Ah, sorry, your lack of imagination does not control the reality of my experience. MMORGP. That "R" stands for ROLE PLAYING. YOU create the role. It's your back-story. Your objectives. Your desires. Your gameplay. That's the way it's been since DnD Original Boxed set.
For example, when I played Eve Online I had an Industiralist Miner main on one account and a PvP/Misssion Runner on the other account. Except moving credits back and forth on occassion, and twice weekly mining-ops where the PvP/Mission Runner was the frieghter pilot, they didn't interact and they did entirely different things.
They had their own personalities. Their own desires. Etc. And while I wasn't super-heavy in the role-play, it was there. And Eve does have some very heavy role-play. Because the game allows it within the mechanics of the freedom given -- tools and a blank slate for your imagination. It's not cardboard villages with cardboard opponents created for you by cardboard conventions like SWTOR and all of it's artifical restrictions and set-ups. These people create the whole role-playing universe as they see fit and CCP, to some extent, helps them move it along. And they do it all without some clown stealing some half-baked story as if we wouldn't notice (Jedi Knight, you must be kidding me... I mean, seriously, two months after I quit that crap game I'm still shaking my head at every friggin story, with that one being the biggest d-bag rip-off I've ever seen.)
If they can't do story right in a single player game which is vastly easier than MMOs, I doubt it.
I love the Elder Scrolls series but can anyone tell me what the story is cause my god did it suck; esp Obilvion.
lol. Aren't you the one who said you'd especially buy anything with a BioWare name? Because, if we go by sales, which is the only objective way to assess whether the public likes the stories, game play, etc., Skyrim is pushing 11 million in sales. To date, the entire ME franchise (all three games) is under 10 million in sales.
And Bethesda sales, on a per-title basis are two-to-three times what BioWare does. And why you like BioWare stories. They ain't that good. Kind of dull. And they're always copies of each other. The 'wimp/neutura/jerk" dialog. The romances. The stupid black/white (red/blue) morality system. The cardboard sidekicks. Since NWN, if you've played one, you've played them all. It's a rut. Just like the rails their games are on.
In bethesda games, storytelling isn't their goal. They give you a world and they tell you to go explore it. That's what mmo's need. If you don't understand that or have some sort of weak criticism of bethesda, sod off.
If they can't do story right in a single player game which is vastly easier than MMOs, I doubt it.
I love the Elder Scrolls series but can anyone tell me what the story is cause my god did it suck; esp Obilvion.
lol. Aren't you the one who said you'd especially buy anything with a BioWare name? Because, if we go by sales, which is the only objective way to assess whether the public likes the stories, game play, etc., Skyrim is pushing 11 million in sales. To date, the entire ME franchise (all three games) is under 10 million in sales.
And Bethesda sales, on a per-title basis are two-to-three times what BioWare does. And why you like BioWare stories. They ain't that good. Kind of dull. And they're always copies of each other. The 'wimp/neutura/jerk" dialog. The romances. The stupid black/white (red/blue) morality system. The cardboard sidekicks. Since NWN, if you've played one, you've played them all. It's a rut. Just like the rails their games are on.
Ah! So you believe Elder Scrolls has a better story than a Bioware game? Okay.
I disagree and I think even die-hard Elder scrolls fans accept that.
Elder scrolls game is a great game series but story isn't their strengths.
I don't go into a Street Fighter game looking for an awesome story and I don't go into an Elder scrolls game looking for one either. I expect an awesome world with heaps to do in an ES game.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Story should never be the main focus of an MMO. EVER
What about FFXI and Lotro? Their primary driving focus is STORY and they do it really well. 2 of my favorite MMOs, ever. Story is NOT the issue in SWTOR, by the by. It's everything else. Or lack of.
I dont know about FFXI but I know the book line in LoTRO is just there for when you are bored. So I wouldnt say it is a driving focus at all.
I also posted in the other thread about this might be the project Matt Firor is working on and if it is Bethesda may not be doing much work if any on this game.
This is a great thread on MMO storytelling. The big titles tend to create massive over-arching storyline, which can be hard to keep up with if you aren't playing _all_the_time_.
Island Forge is all about player-created stories/quests. This lends itself to small, creative stories that are fun to sit down and explore. Stories aren't just linear text - the storytelling engine allows for dynamic branching logic across all the NPCs of your island.
Full disclosure: I'm the (sole) developer, and one of my goals was to do things a little differently.
Island Forge: Create Islands with Stories for Others to Explore! Free-to-Play with Membership and Upgrade options!
Just say no, and make a real MMO...Put backstory in or whatever, maybe sprinkle some VO, but I say to the scrap heap with this everything be VO'd...Put that time/money in making the actual 95% of the game you play better.
Just say no, and make a real MMO...Put backstory in or whatever, maybe sprinkle some VO, but I say to the scrap heap with this everything be VO'd...Put that time/money in making the actual 95% of the game you play better.
Everything has been VO'd in the Elder Scrolls games since Oblivion. To do an ES MMO right, you would really need to continue that trend I think. That doesn't mean that everything should be linear as it is in SWTOR. The strength of the Elder Scrolls games is that you can literally head in any direction and do whatever you want to progress your character. This can still be done well with full VO.
Originally posted by Xthos Just say no, and make a real MMO...Put backstory in or whatever, maybe sprinkle some VO, but I say to the scrap heap with this everything be VO'd...Put that time/money in making the actual 95% of the game you play better.
I tend to agree - less over-production and more interesting concepts. Voice acting can be done well (speech pack for early 1990s Ultima was pretty keen), but making that the whole purpose/budget of the game is so Wing Commander III.
Island Forge: Create Islands with Stories for Others to Explore! Free-to-Play with Membership and Upgrade options!
The only company that will do MMO storytelling "right" is the one that will put the tools and systems in the game that allow players to make the story in the gameworld.
Developer generated narratives eventually end, as we saw in SWTOR. None of them have the manpower to continuously create great story-driven content. Incorporating systems in a game that allow players to make the stories, and the histories, of their game's world is self-perpetuating, and is a far more organic experience as well. It actually helps to give meaning to a gameworld.
I used to do MMO story telling until I took that arrow in the knee. Bethesda knows story telling. Their games may be buggy, but they sure can spin a yarn. I use Skooma so I can work harder and longer, so I can make more money, and buy more Skooma. I don't see a problem with that.
Ballerinas are always on their toes. Why don't they just get taller ballerinas?
Doing MMO story telling right means not creating pre-scripted linear storyline for characters. MMO story should be limited to the meta-verse the MMO takes place in, and should be presented through story arcs and world events.
I'm sure this will not be the case by any means, but I feel like since TES has always been about sandbox RPG freedom in a single-player world, would it not be too bizarre to give a similar sandbox open world feeling to this new online game in development? Sure there's story involved in TES games but more importantly they give you a rich, developed world where you can imagine your own reasons for mass-murdering wolves, cliff racers or bandits.
Originally posted by Rohn The only company that will do MMO storytelling "right" is the one that will put the tools and systems in the game that allow players to make the story in the gameworld...
That's exactly what Island Forge is all about! (See above) Thanks for this comment - we know there are creative story-oriented players out there, and it's great to hear from them!
Island Forge: Create Islands with Stories for Others to Explore! Free-to-Play with Membership and Upgrade options!
That's exactly what Island Forge is all about! (See above) Thanks for this comment - we know there are creative story-oriented players out there, and it's great to hear from them!
Nhym your game looks awesome! And I totally agree with the players creating their own stories. The problem is, with more and more young gamers getting used to the story being told to them a lot of creativity is lost. I do think an IP as huge as Elder Scrolls could make a difference if they tried something new.... but of course that would involve trying something new.
Originally posted by Tharlog That's exactly what Island Forge is all about! (See above) Thanks for this comment - we know there are creative story-oriented players out there, and it's great to hear from them!
Nhym your game looks awesome! And I totally agree with the players creating their own stories. ...
Thanks a lot, Tharlog! I'd love to discuss Island Forge further, but I don't want to hijack this thread. Please post to my thread in the open beta forum.
Island Forge: Create Islands with Stories for Others to Explore! Free-to-Play with Membership and Upgrade options!
Comments
I never said story shouldnt be in an MMO. I good story is needed. But it should never be the driving factor in an MMO. Single player RPG's need the story.
In XI the story was great, but it wasnt the driving factor of the game.
MMO's need to focus on a world, and community, and meaningful content. Story's end, even a great story ends, and they end fast. After they end you have nothing but filler content left, thats whay it should never be the main focus. A world never ends. A community can thrive for a long time. Meaningful content has become a lost art.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
My sincere hope is that their main focus will be to create a living breathing world in which players can be the authors of their own epic tales.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
If they stay true to the series and away from EA I'm confident.
I hope as far as lore goes they do it right. But I REALLY hope they don't do story telling, as in trying to make your character the sole focus and hero. We have enough of those theme park games to choke a horse.
Sandbox would be great. Give us an open world with multiple starting areas for each race and let us decide our adventure.
I think they would do really well if they play to their strengths and craft an epic storyline involving mannequins who have been brought to some form of life, but without those pesky emotions. Also every character shouldn't have more than 3 things to say.
If they were to attempt a story where the npc's carrying it along are required to show emotion, there might be problems.
If they can't do story right in a single player game which is vastly easier than MMOs, I doubt it.
I love the Elder Scrolls series but can anyone tell me what the story is cause my god did it suck; esp Obilvion.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Ah, sorry, your lack of imagination does not control the reality of my experience. MMORGP. That "R" stands for ROLE PLAYING. YOU create the role. It's your back-story. Your objectives. Your desires. Your gameplay. That's the way it's been since DnD Original Boxed set.
For example, when I played Eve Online I had an Industiralist Miner main on one account and a PvP/Misssion Runner on the other account. Except moving credits back and forth on occassion, and twice weekly mining-ops where the PvP/Mission Runner was the frieghter pilot, they didn't interact and they did entirely different things.
They had their own personalities. Their own desires. Etc. And while I wasn't super-heavy in the role-play, it was there. And Eve does have some very heavy role-play. Because the game allows it within the mechanics of the freedom given -- tools and a blank slate for your imagination. It's not cardboard villages with cardboard opponents created for you by cardboard conventions like SWTOR and all of it's artifical restrictions and set-ups. These people create the whole role-playing universe as they see fit and CCP, to some extent, helps them move it along. And they do it all without some clown stealing some half-baked story as if we wouldn't notice (Jedi Knight, you must be kidding me... I mean, seriously, two months after I quit that crap game I'm still shaking my head at every friggin story, with that one being the biggest d-bag rip-off I've ever seen.)
lol. Aren't you the one who said you'd especially buy anything with a BioWare name? Because, if we go by sales, which is the only objective way to assess whether the public likes the stories, game play, etc., Skyrim is pushing 11 million in sales. To date, the entire ME franchise (all three games) is under 10 million in sales.
And Bethesda sales, on a per-title basis are two-to-three times what BioWare does. And why you like BioWare stories. They ain't that good. Kind of dull. And they're always copies of each other. The 'wimp/neutura/jerk" dialog. The romances. The stupid black/white (red/blue) morality system. The cardboard sidekicks. Since NWN, if you've played one, you've played them all. It's a rut. Just like the rails their games are on.
And it's to the point, they're even mocked for it: http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/ob/biowareupdated3_web.jpg
And rightfully so...
In bethesda games, storytelling isn't their goal. They give you a world and they tell you to go explore it. That's what mmo's need. If you don't understand that or have some sort of weak criticism of bethesda, sod off.
Impossible to say. Making a good singleplayer game and a good MMO ain't the same thing.
But it will be interesting to find it out...
Ah! So you believe Elder Scrolls has a better story than a Bioware game? Okay.
I disagree and I think even die-hard Elder scrolls fans accept that.
Elder scrolls game is a great game series but story isn't their strengths.
I don't go into a Street Fighter game looking for an awesome story and I don't go into an Elder scrolls game looking for one either. I expect an awesome world with heaps to do in an ES game.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I dont know about FFXI but I know the book line in LoTRO is just there for when you are bored. So I wouldnt say it is a driving focus at all.
I also posted in the other thread about this might be the project Matt Firor is working on and if it is Bethesda may not be doing much work if any on this game.
This is a great thread on MMO storytelling. The big titles tend to create massive over-arching storyline, which can be hard to keep up with if you aren't playing _all_the_time_.
Island Forge is all about player-created stories/quests. This lends itself to small, creative stories that are fun to sit down and explore. Stories aren't just linear text - the storytelling engine allows for dynamic branching logic across all the NPCs of your island.
Full disclosure: I'm the (sole) developer, and one of my goals was to do things a little differently.
Island Forge: Create Islands with Stories for Others to Explore!
Free-to-Play with Membership and Upgrade options!
Just say no, and make a real MMO...Put backstory in or whatever, maybe sprinkle some VO, but I say to the scrap heap with this everything be VO'd...Put that time/money in making the actual 95% of the game you play better.
Everything has been VO'd in the Elder Scrolls games since Oblivion. To do an ES MMO right, you would really need to continue that trend I think. That doesn't mean that everything should be linear as it is in SWTOR. The strength of the Elder Scrolls games is that you can literally head in any direction and do whatever you want to progress your character. This can still be done well with full VO.
I tend to agree - less over-production and more interesting concepts. Voice acting can be done well (speech pack for early 1990s Ultima was pretty keen), but making that the whole purpose/budget of the game is so Wing Commander III.
Island Forge: Create Islands with Stories for Others to Explore!
Free-to-Play with Membership and Upgrade options!
Who knows? As other companies have proven before, a single player game and a MMO works really different.
Let´s worry about it when we know more, anything is still possible.
The only company that will do MMO storytelling "right" is the one that will put the tools and systems in the game that allow players to make the story in the gameworld.
Developer generated narratives eventually end, as we saw in SWTOR. None of them have the manpower to continuously create great story-driven content. Incorporating systems in a game that allow players to make the stories, and the histories, of their game's world is self-perpetuating, and is a far more organic experience as well. It actually helps to give meaning to a gameworld.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I used to do MMO story telling until I took that arrow in the knee. Bethesda knows story telling. Their games may be buggy, but they sure can spin a yarn. I use Skooma so I can work harder and longer, so I can make more money, and buy more Skooma. I don't see a problem with that.
Ballerinas are always on their toes. Why don't they just get taller ballerinas?
ARE NOT MAKING THIS GAME
Zenimax online are making a mmo in the early elder scrolls universe
It may be nothing like the single player elder scrolls games at all bar the setting
Doing MMO story telling right means not creating pre-scripted linear storyline for characters. MMO story should be limited to the meta-verse the MMO takes place in, and should be presented through story arcs and world events.
I'm sure this will not be the case by any means, but I feel like since TES has always been about sandbox RPG freedom in a single-player world, would it not be too bizarre to give a similar sandbox open world feeling to this new online game in development? Sure there's story involved in TES games but more importantly they give you a rich, developed world where you can imagine your own reasons for mass-murdering wolves, cliff racers or bandits.
That's exactly what Island Forge is all about! (See above) Thanks for this comment - we know there are creative story-oriented players out there, and it's great to hear from them!
Island Forge: Create Islands with Stories for Others to Explore!
Free-to-Play with Membership and Upgrade options!
Nhym your game looks awesome! And I totally agree with the players creating their own stories. The problem is, with more and more young gamers getting used to the story being told to them a lot of creativity is lost. I do think an IP as huge as Elder Scrolls could make a difference if they tried something new.... but of course that would involve trying something new.
Thanks a lot, Tharlog! I'd love to discuss Island Forge further, but I don't want to hijack this thread. Please post to my thread in the open beta forum.
Island Forge: Create Islands with Stories for Others to Explore!
Free-to-Play with Membership and Upgrade options!