The thread was pretty funny because Sebastian basically owned himself and admitted that it was the core design of their programming that was flawed. People finally start opening their eyes and realise that behind the beautiful 3D engine, there is a fundamental lack of artistic design and lack of variety in models and textures.
Finally someone mentioning how poorly textures are being tiled endlessly on the ground on a unique pattern.
And yes, the OP said the truth, Devs at SV are unprofessional and "lazy". lazy, not because they don't work hard, but because they don't work the proper way due to lack of experience, they chose the quick easier solutions which after look bad.
And yes the insults aimed at Greece are unacceptable, yet MO forum moderation allows it, while banning other people for "negativity" aimed at the game.
When facing arguments, the rabid fanboys resort to the "derp" type answers and attacking the guy's own country.
Pathetic.
Agree for the most part. I am one of the people who got banned on the forums for 'negativity', so I know what that is like. Even though the 'negative' post was actually a positive suggestion to fix and improve the horribly broken game.
I don't think insulting someone for having a failed country is appropriate for a game forum, but the offended individual seems to lack the context of discontent.
My country's central banking system has vastly expanded its own money supply to accomodate bailouts for failed EU nations like Greece. This expansion of money supply means much greater inflation rates here at home which translates to everyone having to pay more for goods and services. The 0% interest rates provided for central banks punishes people who save by eliminating returns that they would see in a better economy - people can't retire, and people who did retire are suffering. This is the last thing we need in a recessed and depressed economy, so a LOT of people are pissed off at Greece and other EU nations. An individual should not be accountable for the failings of his governments financial system... but at least understand where the anger comes from... it has nothing whatsoever to do with racism, and everything to do with widescale governmental failure impacting the economies of eveyone due to the fuckups of a few.
Love for the Greek people.... but FUCK the Greek government.
I will agree with your conclution cause cant simply think in any other way and will ask you 2 simple questions after a small proloque. Greece's debt at the end of 1974 was approximately 100.000.000 drachmas (drachmas was the official coin in Greece back then). That amount is nearly 300.000 euro if my math is correct and i think you will agree with me that we re talking about a very low debt, close to nothing for a country. Now and because i dont have much time today just wanna ask you the 2 questions:
1)Do you know whats the total debt that Greece owes to counties of the european union as we speak?
2) Do you know whats the amount of money that Greek people paid back from the late 70's untill now in order repay the loans that Greece took since late 70's untill today.
Feel free to do your research in the NET and tomorrow i will steal some time to come back to you and hopefuly make you reconsider your way of thinking since its based in probably intended misinformation.
I do NOT know- But if its only 300,00 Euros, why does the Government not just put change jars in the Gas stations??? Why are the people allowing these huge reuductions in Pensions and minimum wage when everyone could throw a few pennys in a Jar and be done with it??? Why are people setting themselves on Fire when they could probably just take a small Bank loan of 300,000 Euros (the cost of many HOMES) and pay off this miniscule debt??????
I honestly have not looked into the Greek Debt crisis far beyongd what the News and my European friends tell me- And TRUST me, if its only 300,000 Euros of debt - Germany would just pay and be done with the matter... OR am I missing something here?
I also am under the impression (from my European friends) that the Government of Greece has a difficult time collecting ANY taxes and what they are SUPPOSED to have and what they ACTUALLY have are two differing numbers.
NOTE: I have no idea of the validity of what I have heard, and I am not going to research it (just being honest...) but if its only 300,000 Euros of debt- I dont understand the problem at all.
The thread was pretty funny because Sebastian basically owned himself and admitted that it was the core design of their programming that was flawed. People finally start opening their eyes and realise that behind the beautiful 3D engine, there is a fundamental lack of artistic design and lack of variety in models and textures.
Finally someone mentioning how poorly textures are being tiled endlessly on the ground on a unique pattern.
And yes, the OP said the truth, Devs at SV are unprofessional and "lazy". lazy, not because they don't work hard, but because they don't work the proper way due to lack of experience, they chose the quick easier solutions which after look bad.
And yes the insults aimed at Greece are unacceptable, yet MO forum moderation allows it, while banning other people for "negativity" aimed at the game.
When facing arguments, the rabid fanboys resort to the "derp" type answers and attacking the guy's own country.
Pathetic.
Agree for the most part. I am one of the people who got banned on the forums for 'negativity', so I know what that is like. Even though the 'negative' post was actually a positive suggestion to fix and improve the horribly broken game.
I don't think insulting someone for having a failed country is appropriate for a game forum, but the offended individual seems to lack the context of discontent.
My country's central banking system has vastly expanded its own money supply to accomodate bailouts for failed EU nations like Greece. This expansion of money supply means much greater inflation rates here at home which translates to everyone having to pay more for goods and services. The 0% interest rates provided for central banks punishes people who save by eliminating returns that they would see in a better economy - people can't retire, and people who did retire are suffering. This is the last thing we need in a recessed and depressed economy, so a LOT of people are pissed off at Greece and other EU nations. An individual should not be accountable for the failings of his governments financial system... but at least understand where the anger comes from... it has nothing whatsoever to do with racism, and everything to do with widescale governmental failure impacting the economies of eveyone due to the fuckups of a few.
Love for the Greek people.... but FUCK the Greek government.
I will agree with your conclution cause cant simply think in any other way and will ask you 2 simple questions after a small proloque. Greece's debt at the end of 1974 was approximately 100.000.000 drachmas (drachmas was the official coin in Greece back then). That amount is nearly 300.000 euro if my math is correct and i think you will agree with me that we re talking about a very low debt, close to nothing for a country. Now and because i dont have much time today just wanna ask you the 2 questions:
1)Do you know whats the total debt that Greece owes to counties of the european union as we speak?
2) Do you know whats the amount of money that Greek people paid back from the late 70's untill now in order repay the loans that Greece took since late 70's untill today.
Feel free to do your research in the NET and tomorrow i will steal some time to come back to you and hopefuly make you reconsider your way of thinking since its based in probably intended misinformation.
I do NOT know- But if its only 300,00 Euros, why does the Government not just put change jars in the Gas stations??? Why are the people allowing these huge reuductions in Pensions and minimum wage when everyone could throw a few pennys in a Jar and be done with it??? Why are people setting themselves on Fire when they could probably just take a small Bank loan of 300,000 Euros (the cost of many HOMES) and pay off this miniscule debt??????
I honestly have not looked into the Greek Debt crisis far beyongd what the News and my European friends tell me- And TRUST me, if its only 300,000 Euros of debt - Germany would just pay and be done with the matter... OR am I missing something here?
I also am under the impression (from my European friends) that the Government of Greece has a difficult time collecting ANY taxes and what they are SUPPOSED to have and what they ACTUALLY have are two differing numbers.
NOTE: I have no idea of the validity of what I have heard, and I am not going to research it (just being honest...) but if its only 300,000 Euros of debt- I dont understand the problem at all.
Yes. You're missing the fact that 1974 isn't 2012.
I'm sorry someone insulted you on a forum. That being said, you'd best get used to it if you plan on continuing to use forums,
Pakee's comments on the Greek economy were stupid and irrelevent (presuming you don't set national fiscal policy), but hardly racist.
From what you have quoted of Stephum, his post certainly seems offensive (and sounds like it was derailing the thread). That being said, it has been deleted. Since the moderators have responded appropriately to to Stephum, it seems that your claim of "fail selective moderation" is based on the moderators not acting as quickly as you would like. How long did you wait between reporting the comment and starting this thread to complain about the moderation? When I'm logged into both forums, it looks like there is only a 2 hour window between post #45 and you starting this thread complaining about post #46. Forum moderation takes time and expecting offensive comments to be deleted that quickly is a little unrealistic.
P.S. Not that it is in the least bit relevent to MO, but the IMF and other EU countries have loaned Greece 110 billion Euros to bail them out. That might be slightly relevent if we were discussing Darkfall, but it is totally irrelevent to MO.
P.P.S. @ argirop: Just reread your comments in post #10 in this thread. I'd just like to note that part of the problem is that you came across offensive/ ban-worthy comments and felt the need to respond to them. If you are sure that a poster violates the forums ToS, report- don't respond. If someone is derailing the thread and you respond you are just further derailing the thread (trust me, that is most of the warnings I've gotten on this forum)
Yes. You're missing the fact that 1974 isn't 2012.
SaintPhilip thats the answer to your question. If Greeces debt was only 300.000 we wouldnt have tgis conversation now. But i m glad you mention that a country like Germany could pay the debt for us. You will be surpriced when i will come back at Germany but lets check on some facts.
NOTE: all the info i will mention are info that one can find in the net and easily double check them. I can easy link to anyone likes my resources but the fact and only thats in Greek i think it will not be much of a help to anyone. Also pls if you are about to argue dont do it unless you spend some time and do your own research and have clues more than your goverment, media are willing to offer to you. Thanks in advance.
Todays Greece's debt at major counties of the European eunion comes up to aprox 340 billion euros. Thats a fact and a lot of people do know it. The thing that a lot of people dont know and your media intentionaly forget to refer to is that Greek people managed to paid back aproximately 917 billion Euros in payments from late 70's until today. In every civilized country around the world that law and constitution where writen under some thought, its clear that no loan which inerests exceeds the principal amount of the initial loan is not considered a loan but mere usury. Same applies to Greece and our laws. The sad part is that people who ruled Greece from early 80's until today not only sold our counry and our people by taking unecessary and unusualy high loans with high interests with only purpose to steal the money via non legitimate tacticks and not to support, invigorate and develop the Greek market and economy and appart from that they where indefferent for the mere fact that country was forced to pay annually only for interests an amount that it was almost 2/3 of the anual incomes of Greece without even considering the anual operating costs of the country. As everyone can imagine that periodically lead to the situation we Greek people are facing today. Developement sector was left at his fate, investments where made uppon that where close to nothing so we pretty much paid in a period of 30 years almost 3 times the principal amount of the loans but still we owe the principal amount of the loans in full.
Unfortunatelly that situation didnt change not even today as we speak -its also a fact that Greek people didnt had the smallest idea about the loans that Greek goverments contracted for more the 4 decades untill 2007-8 when crisis had a major impact in pretty much all the europeans countries- and not gonna change any time soon unless strong people with iron will, love for their country will seize the reins of the country, resort to higher European courts in order to recognize the loans that Greece took illegal and improper and clear the debt since Greece repaid untill present day almost 3 times the principal amount of the loans. Will not go into a convo about criminal responsibilities behind contucting usury and which counties are behind that but i think its crystall clear to everyone who follows whats happening in european eunion the last decade.
If you think that all those things sound terrible i can assure you that it doesnt stop here and Greece is in way deeper shit than that. Our beloved rulers instead of taking the meters for clearing the Greek people from all the mess that they got us into at first place -and i m not talking about anything less than resorting to the law cause as many of you might know law is superior to any physical contract or arrangement between people, nations, eunions etc etc and all those contracts, arrangements, loans must abide to certain laws- they resorted to the institution which is known as "International Monetary Fund" in order to take a loan in order to pay the interests for the loans we where talking about untill now. Yeap you heard right. We took a new loan not in order to clear off the debts that our beloved politicians created behind our backs for their own personal interrest and profit but to keep on paying the annual interrests for all those former loans. Thats when the riots in Greece started you all saw in the news as anarchists and trouble makers that went out to cause caos. Well guess again those out there where simple family men that where feed up with the same goverment that in contract with our "western friends" leading Greece to the bottom even right now as we speak. Those people are hungry for blood because they where hard working law abiding citizens, paying their taxes, not harming anyone, helping fellow humans when they had the chance and living regular lives and now they lack their own dignity because our politicians based on their own personal interests desided to sell our own country and people to your own leaders and to huge economical interests that use to operate underground. And dont get me wrong i do not blame civilians neither i do hold a grudge for any people around the world. But the unethical, illegal and inhuman tacticks and the divide and conquer policy that leader of specific nations are using are unacceptable and finaly needs to be punished. The elder in here i m sure they know what does International Monetary Fund means and what it did to the countries it was supposed to help. Will not discuss it any furtherto add to this wall of text but it totaly worths to check it out and see what the institusion did to most countries of latin America.
International Monetary Fund in partnership with European leader came up with some meters that where supposed to help rebuilding the Greek economy but the simplest mind can see that wasnt the case. The new loan that International Monetary Fund gaved to Greek goverment was used mainly by greece for paying on time the interests from the first loans that came from Europe. Zero investments where made. Now how one will help rebuilding one economy by not focusing on developement is beyond common sense. Still the meters that International Monetary Fund forced Greek goverment to take for delivering the loan at ridiculous doses, as i said concerning the payment of installments of previous loansand, pay salaries and pensions of public sector only, forcing civilians to make a living with paychecks reduced to 50% in many cases while the cost of living, rents, heating oil, public transportations, food is reaching the sky everyday. Even the greek market is controlled by foreign markets since a sidenote for the previous loans was for Greece to import specific products and huge amounts from specific countries while at the same time Greek producers cant sell their own products not only in their own country but not even outside. And we arent talking about the crap that most of the countries produce. We are talking about high quality biological products grown by natural proceedures without the use of chemicals. Most low and medium bissines around the country ended their bussines for obvious reasons, 20% of the productive population is jobeless, the rest 80% receives paychecks of hunger and living under the constant fear of new cuts and from that 80 % that do still have jobs a good 45% is not getting paid on time cause companies face huge economical problems and they not only fail to pay on time their employees but leaving them without payment for more than 5-6 months which is cruel and inhuman.
To finish this i have to make a quick reference in Germany since you mentioned it cause they seem to be one of the harsher judges and critics concerning th problem with the Greek economy. Germany is the only country that ows to the Greek nation more money than our initial debt in total. Highest european courts decided decades ago that German goverment is obligated to pay to Greece more than 300 billion euros not only for the initial "forced loan"-thats the term they re using when in times of war the "winner" uses the funds, incomes, stored wealth of the country that lost the war- they took during the world war 2 for comprehension for the gold they took from the national treasure that never returned and for all the disasters they brought upon our heads and our property as a nation. Human blood that spilled, attrocities against the human nature and kind and extinction of the human population in entire villages are not to count in that since the last 3-4 years only higher european courts desided that German goverment needs to pay huge amounts of money straight to the descendants that suffered all those nasty crap. And yet no comprehension is to be seing cause Greece is so bloody weak cause our rulers are sold out and they skip claim whats rightfully ours. And they re also signing of agreements that Greece's debt cannot be offset against the other countries debts to Greece.
I have many more things to say but i guess no one will be interested to read them. The thing is that i feel very sad each time i read or listen something of the kind that Greeks are lazy bastards and when people have the feeling that they re paying for Greek people crimes they are mistaken 100% and statements like that are based on ignorance. Or the intel that someone needs if he wants to make a somehow complete view about the subject are on the net placed among trash, hype and organised interests but still are there.
Now coming back to Billy to end this only to say that if the country that gaved to the rest of the world the light and the foundations for civilazion, arts, democracy, mercantilism, modern architecture and engineering, maths, physics, medical science, philosophy and numerous other things that modern society still uses and developes is "failed"as you say then i m just another guy in the internet that will simply say that isnt. Greece atm is a living proof that modern economical system and structure leads to one certain thing: concentration of all the global funds into the hands of few which eventually leads into collapse of all the states with a certain order of the weakest to the strongest or if you prefer from the most disorganized to the most organized. Whats happening now is an example to what will follow in all the countries of european eunion starting from Spain and italy which they didnt realized yet cause their economy gets a minor boost from the organized industry that Greece totaly lacks. Spaniards and Italians are lazy? No they arent. Italians are working machines and very typical at their work. Same applies to Spaniards. I guess the only question that remains to be answered is who takes turn right after. Thing is that non the less we all apply under the same rules andif only fail to see just that and creating grudges between us cause we simply dont care or we have the feeling that whats happening to greece right now will not reach you then we are gonna lose in a game which in a first look doesnt have many odds in our favour. And by "our" i dont mean Greeks, i mean everyone.
P.S. sorry about my bad English and in many cases and for a lot of terms i used google's crappy translate but i hope this wall of text makes sense and opens a road for anyone who feels like debating about a "failed" country like Greece to take a look, gather some info and put some thought before jumps in and start throwing half assed ideas or even the crap that your own media feeds you.
I'm sorry someone insulted you on a forum. That being said, you'd best get used to it if you plan on continuing to use forums,
Pakee's comments on the Greek economy were stupid and irrelevent (presuming you don't set national fiscal policy), but hardly racist.
From what you have quoted of Stephum, his post certainly seems offensive (and sounds like it was derailing the thread). That being said, it has been deleted. Since the moderators have responded appropriately to to Stephum, it seems that your claim of "fail selective moderation" is based on the moderators not acting as quickly as you would like. How long did you wait between reporting the comment and starting this thread to complain about the moderation? When I'm logged into both forums, it looks like there is only a 2 hour window between post #45 and you starting this thread complaining about post #46. Forum moderation takes time and expecting offensive comments to be deleted that quickly is a little unrealistic.
P.S. Not that it is in the least bit relevent to MO, but the IMF and other EU countries have loaned Greece 110 billion Euros to bail them out. That might be slightly relevent if we were discussing Darkfall, but it is totally irrelevent to MO.
P.P.S. @ argirop: Just reread your comments in post #10 in this thread. I'd just like to note that part of the problem is that you came across offensive/ ban-worthy comments and felt the need to respond to them. If you are sure that a poster violates the forums ToS, report- don't respond. If someone is derailing the thread and you respond you are just further derailing the thread (trust me, that is most of the warnings I've gotten on this forum)
Osmunda if you check the title of my thred you will see that is followed with a questionmark cause tbh i was wondering by the time if mods will apply the rules of the forum and ban the violators. I wouldnt mind at all if i was about to be baned aswell for "negativity" or for negative critisism uppon SV and their stuff and i did my posts with full concience in a try to limit my criticism on Sebastians work and not on him personaly. I made this thread after answering to Stephum for his insults with a very constructive and civilized way (at least thats what i think) -my post got removed aswell not cause violating anything but my guess is that was including his harsh and extremely insulting words insulting words and i cant realy say when he got baned and when his post got removed cause tbh i dont know but thats not the point. I know how certain people using forums and i m not easily offended nor sensitive in any way in peoples i dont even know insults. But at certain points and when i m working on average for 10-12 hours per day for pennies, hardly make a living, being forced to move from my home town Athens (in which i was born 31 years ago and lived for all my life and which city i love) to uknown destination in a seek for a better life for me and family, when i m educated and informed on whats happening in my country and whos falt it is for the situation me and my people are forced to go through and being called "lazy Greek", that my country is "worthles" and it shouldnt even considered as a nation among the civilized ones, totaly unprovoked totaly unjustified then i cant help myself from losing my sense and if i had access to the one who said that i wouldnt do anything less than force him eat his keyboard.
Yes. You're missing the fact that 1974 isn't 2012.
SaintPhilip thats the answer to your question. If Greeces debt was only 300.000 we wouldnt have tgis conversation now. But i m glad you mention that a country like Germany could pay the debt for us. You will be surpriced when i will come back at Germany but lets check on some facts.
NOTE: all the info i will mention are info that one can find in the net and easily double check them. I can easy link to anyone likes my resources but the fact and only thats in Greek i think it will not be much of a help to anyone. Also pls if you are about to argue dont do it unless you spend some time and do your own research and have clues more than your goverment, media are willing to offer to you. Thanks in advance.
Todays Greece's debt at major counties of the European eunion comes up to aprox 340 billion euros. Thats a fact and a lot of people do know it. The thing that a lot of people dont know and your media intentionaly forget to refer to is that Greek people managed to paid back aproximately 917 billion Euros in payments from late 70's until today. In every civilized country around the world that law and constitution where writen under some thought, its clear that no loan which inerests exceeds the principal amount of the initial loan is not considered a loan but mere usury. Same applies to Greece and our laws. The sad part is that people who ruled Greece from early 80's until today not only sold our counry and our people by taking unecessary and unusualy high loans with high interests with only purpose to steal the money via non legitimate tacticks and not to support, invigorate and develop the Greek market and economy and appart from that they where indefferent for the mere fact that country was forced to pay annually only for interests an amount that it was almost 2/3 of the anual incomes of Greece without even considering the anual operating costs of the country. As everyone can imagine that periodically lead to the situation we Greek people are facing today. Developement sector was left at his fate, investments where made uppon that where close to nothing so we pretty much paid in a period of 30 years almost 3 times the principal amount of the loans but still we owe the principal amount of the loans in full.
Unfortunatelly that situation didnt change not even today as we speak -its also a fact that Greek people didnt had the smallest idea about the loans that Greek goverments contracted for more the 4 decades untill 2007-8 when crisis had a major impact in pretty much all the europeans countries- and not gonna change any time soon unless strong people with iron will, love for their country will seize the reins of the country, resort to higher European courts in order to recognize the loans that Greece took illegal and improper and clear the debt since Greece repaid untill present day almost 3 times the principal amount of the loans. Will not go into a convo about criminal responsibilities behind contucting usury and which counties are behind that but i think its crystall clear to everyone who follows whats happening in european eunion the last decade.
If you think that all those things sound terrible i can assure you that it doesnt stop here and Greece is in way deeper shit than that. Our beloved rulers instead of taking the meters for clearing the Greek people from all the mess that they got us into at first place -and i m not talking about anything less than resorting to the law cause as many of you might know law is superior to any physical contract or arrangement between people, nations, eunions etc etc and all those contracts, arrangements, loans must abide to certain laws- they resorted to the institution which is known as "International Monetary Fund" in order to take a loan in order to pay the interests for the loans we where talking about untill now. Yeap you heard right. We took a new loan not in order to clear off the debts that our beloved politicians created behind our backs for their own personal interrest and profit but to keep on paying the annual interrests for all those former loans. Thats when the riots in Greece started you all saw in the news as anarchists and trouble makers that went out to cause caos. Well guess again those out there where simple family men that where feed up with the same goverment that in contract with our "western friends" leading Greece to the bottom even right now as we speak. Those people are hungry for blood because they where hard working law abiding citizens, paying their taxes, not harming anyone, helping fellow humans when they had the chance and living regular lives and now they lack their own dignity because our politicians based on their own personal interests desided to sell our own country and people to your own leaders and to huge economical interests that use to operate underground. And dont get me wrong i do not blame civilians neither i do hold a grudge for any people around the world. But the unethical, illegal and inhuman tacticks and the divide and conquer policy that leader of specific nations are using are unacceptable and finaly needs to be punished. The elder in here i m sure they know what does International Monetary Fund means and what it did to the countries it was supposed to help. Will not discuss it any furtherto add to this wall of text but it totaly worths to check it out and see what the institusion did to most countries of latin America.
International Monetary Fund in partnership with European leader came up with some meters that where supposed to help rebuilding the Greek economy but the simplest mind can see that wasnt the case. The new loan that International Monetary Fund gaved to Greek goverment was used mainly by greece for paying on time the interests from the first loans that came from Europe. Zero investments where made. Now how one will help rebuilding one economy by not focusing on developement is beyond common sense. Still the meters that International Monetary Fund forced Greek goverment to take for delivering the loan at ridiculous doses, as i said concerning the payment of installments of previous loansand, pay salaries and pensions of public sector only, forcing civilians to make a living with paychecks reduced to 50% in many cases while the cost of living, rents, heating oil, public transportations, food is reaching the sky everyday. Even the greek market is controlled by foreign markets since a sidenote for the previous loans was for Greece to import specific products and huge amounts from specific countries while at the same time Greek producers cant sell their own products not only in their own country but not even outside. And we arent talking about the crap that most of the countries produce. We are talking about high quality biological products grown by natural proceedures without the use of chemicals. Most low and medium bissines around the country ended their bussines for obvious reasons, 20% of the productive population is jobeless, the rest 80% receives paychecks of hunger and living under the constant fear of new cuts and from that 80 % that do still have jobs a good 45% is not getting paid on time cause companies face huge economical problems and they not only fail to pay on time their employees but leaving them without payment for more than 5-6 months which is cruel and inhuman.
To finish this i have to make a quick reference in Germany since you mentioned it cause they seem to be one of the harsher judges and critics concerning th problem with the Greek economy. Germany is the only country that ows to the Greek nation more money than our initial debt in total. Highest european courts decided decades ago that German goverment is obligated to pay to Greece more than 300 billion euros not only for the initial "forced loan"-thats the term they re using when in times of war the "winner" uses the funds, incomes, stored wealth of the country that lost the war- they took during the world war 2 for comprehension for the gold they took from the national treasure that never returned and for all the disasters they brought upon our heads and our property as a nation. Human blood that spilled, attrocities against the human nature and kind and extinction of the human population in entire villages are not to count in that since the last 3-4 years only higher european courts desided that German goverment needs to pay huge amounts of money straight to the descendants that suffered all those nasty crap. And yet no comprehension is to be seing cause Greece is so bloody weak cause our rulers are sold out and they skip claim whats rightfully ours. And they re also signing of agreements that Greece's debt cannot be offset against the other countries debts to Greece.
I have many more things to say but i guess no one will be interested to read them. The thing is that i feel very sad each time i read or listen something of the kind that Greeks are lazy bastards and when people have the feeling that they re paying for Greek people crimes they are mistaken 100% and statements like that are based on ignorance. Or the intel that someone needs if he wants to make a somehow complete view about the subject are on the net placed among trash, hype and organised interests but still are there.
Now coming back to Billy to end this only to say that if the country that gaved to the rest of the world the light and the foundations for civilazion, arts, democracy, mercantilism, modern architecture and engineering, maths, physics, medical science, philosophy and numerous other things that modern society still uses and developes is "failed"as you say then i m just another guy in the internet that will simply say that isnt. Greece atm is a living proof that modern economical system and structure leads to one certain thing: concentration of all the global funds into the hands of few which eventually leads into collapse of all the states with a certain order of the weakest to the strongest or if you prefer from the most disorganized to the most organized. Whats happening now is an example to what will follow in all the countries of european eunion starting from Spain and italy which they didnt realized yet cause their economy gets a minor boost from the organized industry that Greece totaly lacks. Spaniards and Italians are lazy? No they arent. Italians are working machines and very typical at their work. Same applies to Spaniards. I guess the only question that remains to be answered is who takes turn right after. Thing is that non the less we all apply under the same rules andif only fail to see just that and creating grudges between us cause we simply dont care or we have the feeling that whats happening to greece right now will not reach you then we are gonna lose in a game which in a first look doesnt have many odds in our favour. And by "our" i dont mean Greeks, i mean everyone.
P.S. sorry about my bad English and in many cases and for a lot of terms i used google's crappy translate but i hope this wall of text makes sense and opens a road for anyone who feels like debating about a "failed" country like Greece to take a look, gather some info and put some thought before jumps in and start throwing half assed ideas or even the crap that your own media feeds you.
Cheers
WOW- So you are saying that since 1974 a miniscule Debt of the equivelent of 300,000 Euros had become this monstrosity of a debt? Beccause of the IMF/Central Banks???
Well, maybe I am missing somethng here (yet again) but why is the IMF and Central Banks even needed when Nations (and groups of Natiions like the EU) can print their own Interest Free Debt? Why are they even in this situation.
If you google Greece economic crisis this is what I found:
"Greece had high economic growth during most of the 2000s. From 2000-2007, the economy grew by an average 4.2 percent per year, and foreign capital flowed into. The high growth and low interest rates on government debt helped the government to allow large structural deficits.
To meet the EU's monetary demands, the Government had, however, stated its official economic statistics in a misleading manner. In early 2010 it was discovered also that Greece had paid Goldman Sachs and other big banks hundreds of millions of dollars that they would arrange transactions that hid the actual debt".
To say that Germany is behind Greece debt is just wrong. Greece fucked this up royaly by their own. I have absolutley nothing against greek people, and it´s sad to see normal people get hurt from what their government did. I hope they pull through, but it´s gonna be tough times. We have relatives that live their, but they will now move back to Sweden cause they have no work, and when they did before they got fired they earned pennies for a living. Tough times indeed.
If you google Greece economic crisis this is what I found:
"Greece had high economic growth during most of the 2000s. From 2000-2007, the economy grew by an average 4.2 percent per year, and foreign capital flowed into. The high growth and low interest rates on government debt helped the government to allow large structural deficits.
To meet the EU's monetary demands, the Government had, however, stated its official economic statistics in a misleading manner. In early 2010 it was discovered also that Greece had paid Goldman Sachs and other big banks hundreds of millions of dollars that they would arrange transactions that hid the actual debt".
To say that Germany is behind Greece debt is just wrong. Greece fucked this up royaly by their own. I have absolutley nothing against greek people, and it´s sad to see normal people get hurt from what their government did. I hope they pull through, but it´s gonna be tough times. We have relatives that live their, but they will now move back to Sweden cause they have no work, and when they did before they got fired they earned pennies for a living. Tough times indeed.
Your info is totaly uncorrect. In between 1998-2000 Greece got into the project for changing its coin to Euro with false economical data that Greek goverment did present to European Eunion after manufactering them. Greek priminister is not in jail for that nor any member of the goverment and many of them where members in the next goverments. Is that a coincidence to you?
I ve never blamed Germany about Greece's pathetic economical situation. Just said that Germany owes to Greece more than Greece owes to Europe and if they had the curtecy to give us our money everybody would be happy. Tbh i ve never meet Scandinavian people making a living in Athens that i live or any other part of Greece that i did visit. Only Scandinavian people where travellers or tourists. But still the fact that Scandinavian people you know are jobeless and thinking coming back home doesnt really impress me since Greek people are thinking on moving to Scandinavia among other destination just because they are jobeless. I wish it was a viable destination for me aswell... Too bad that your clime is not warmer...
But pls lets not find a solution to Greece's economical problems in a gamers forum. If you wanna continue the conversation keep it in pms. I will be glad to listen what people thinks and discuss about it.
Comments
I do NOT know- But if its only 300,00 Euros, why does the Government not just put change jars in the Gas stations??? Why are the people allowing these huge reuductions in Pensions and minimum wage when everyone could throw a few pennys in a Jar and be done with it??? Why are people setting themselves on Fire when they could probably just take a small Bank loan of 300,000 Euros (the cost of many HOMES) and pay off this miniscule debt??????
I honestly have not looked into the Greek Debt crisis far beyongd what the News and my European friends tell me- And TRUST me, if its only 300,000 Euros of debt - Germany would just pay and be done with the matter... OR am I missing something here?
I also am under the impression (from my European friends) that the Government of Greece has a difficult time collecting ANY taxes and what they are SUPPOSED to have and what they ACTUALLY have are two differing numbers.
NOTE: I have no idea of the validity of what I have heard, and I am not going to research it (just being honest...) but if its only 300,000 Euros of debt- I dont understand the problem at all.
Yes. You're missing the fact that 1974 isn't 2012.
@argirop:
I'm sorry someone insulted you on a forum. That being said, you'd best get used to it if you plan on continuing to use forums,
Pakee's comments on the Greek economy were stupid and irrelevent (presuming you don't set national fiscal policy), but hardly racist.
From what you have quoted of Stephum, his post certainly seems offensive (and sounds like it was derailing the thread). That being said, it has been deleted. Since the moderators have responded appropriately to to Stephum, it seems that your claim of "fail selective moderation" is based on the moderators not acting as quickly as you would like. How long did you wait between reporting the comment and starting this thread to complain about the moderation? When I'm logged into both forums, it looks like there is only a 2 hour window between post #45 and you starting this thread complaining about post #46. Forum moderation takes time and expecting offensive comments to be deleted that quickly is a little unrealistic.
P.S. Not that it is in the least bit relevent to MO, but the IMF and other EU countries have loaned Greece 110 billion Euros to bail them out. That might be slightly relevent if we were discussing Darkfall, but it is totally irrelevent to MO.
P.P.S. @ argirop: Just reread your comments in post #10 in this thread. I'd just like to note that part of the problem is that you came across offensive/ ban-worthy comments and felt the need to respond to them. If you are sure that a poster violates the forums ToS, report- don't respond. If someone is derailing the thread and you respond you are just further derailing the thread (trust me, that is most of the warnings I've gotten on this forum)
SaintPhilip thats the answer to your question. If Greeces debt was only 300.000 we wouldnt have tgis conversation now. But i m glad you mention that a country like Germany could pay the debt for us. You will be surpriced when i will come back at Germany but lets check on some facts.
NOTE: all the info i will mention are info that one can find in the net and easily double check them. I can easy link to anyone likes my resources but the fact and only thats in Greek i think it will not be much of a help to anyone. Also pls if you are about to argue dont do it unless you spend some time and do your own research and have clues more than your goverment, media are willing to offer to you. Thanks in advance.
Todays Greece's debt at major counties of the European eunion comes up to aprox 340 billion euros. Thats a fact and a lot of people do know it. The thing that a lot of people dont know and your media intentionaly forget to refer to is that Greek people managed to paid back aproximately 917 billion Euros in payments from late 70's until today. In every civilized country around the world that law and constitution where writen under some thought, its clear that no loan which inerests exceeds the principal amount of the initial loan is not considered a loan but mere usury. Same applies to Greece and our laws. The sad part is that people who ruled Greece from early 80's until today not only sold our counry and our people by taking unecessary and unusualy high loans with high interests with only purpose to steal the money via non legitimate tacticks and not to support, invigorate and develop the Greek market and economy and appart from that they where indefferent for the mere fact that country was forced to pay annually only for interests an amount that it was almost 2/3 of the anual incomes of Greece without even considering the anual operating costs of the country. As everyone can imagine that periodically lead to the situation we Greek people are facing today. Developement sector was left at his fate, investments where made uppon that where close to nothing so we pretty much paid in a period of 30 years almost 3 times the principal amount of the loans but still we owe the principal amount of the loans in full.
Unfortunatelly that situation didnt change not even today as we speak -its also a fact that Greek people didnt had the smallest idea about the loans that Greek goverments contracted for more the 4 decades untill 2007-8 when crisis had a major impact in pretty much all the europeans countries- and not gonna change any time soon unless strong people with iron will, love for their country will seize the reins of the country, resort to higher European courts in order to recognize the loans that Greece took illegal and improper and clear the debt since Greece repaid untill present day almost 3 times the principal amount of the loans. Will not go into a convo about criminal responsibilities behind contucting usury and which counties are behind that but i think its crystall clear to everyone who follows whats happening in european eunion the last decade.
If you think that all those things sound terrible i can assure you that it doesnt stop here and Greece is in way deeper shit than that. Our beloved rulers instead of taking the meters for clearing the Greek people from all the mess that they got us into at first place -and i m not talking about anything less than resorting to the law cause as many of you might know law is superior to any physical contract or arrangement between people, nations, eunions etc etc and all those contracts, arrangements, loans must abide to certain laws- they resorted to the institution which is known as "International Monetary Fund" in order to take a loan in order to pay the interests for the loans we where talking about untill now. Yeap you heard right. We took a new loan not in order to clear off the debts that our beloved politicians created behind our backs for their own personal interrest and profit but to keep on paying the annual interrests for all those former loans. Thats when the riots in Greece started you all saw in the news as anarchists and trouble makers that went out to cause caos. Well guess again those out there where simple family men that where feed up with the same goverment that in contract with our "western friends" leading Greece to the bottom even right now as we speak. Those people are hungry for blood because they where hard working law abiding citizens, paying their taxes, not harming anyone, helping fellow humans when they had the chance and living regular lives and now they lack their own dignity because our politicians based on their own personal interests desided to sell our own country and people to your own leaders and to huge economical interests that use to operate underground. And dont get me wrong i do not blame civilians neither i do hold a grudge for any people around the world. But the unethical, illegal and inhuman tacticks and the divide and conquer policy that leader of specific nations are using are unacceptable and finaly needs to be punished. The elder in here i m sure they know what does International Monetary Fund means and what it did to the countries it was supposed to help. Will not discuss it any furtherto add to this wall of text but it totaly worths to check it out and see what the institusion did to most countries of latin America.
International Monetary Fund in partnership with European leader came up with some meters that where supposed to help rebuilding the Greek economy but the simplest mind can see that wasnt the case. The new loan that International Monetary Fund gaved to Greek goverment was used mainly by greece for paying on time the interests from the first loans that came from Europe. Zero investments where made. Now how one will help rebuilding one economy by not focusing on developement is beyond common sense. Still the meters that International Monetary Fund forced Greek goverment to take for delivering the loan at ridiculous doses, as i said concerning the payment of installments of previous loansand, pay salaries and pensions of public sector only, forcing civilians to make a living with paychecks reduced to 50% in many cases while the cost of living, rents, heating oil, public transportations, food is reaching the sky everyday. Even the greek market is controlled by foreign markets since a sidenote for the previous loans was for Greece to import specific products and huge amounts from specific countries while at the same time Greek producers cant sell their own products not only in their own country but not even outside. And we arent talking about the crap that most of the countries produce. We are talking about high quality biological products grown by natural proceedures without the use of chemicals. Most low and medium bissines around the country ended their bussines for obvious reasons, 20% of the productive population is jobeless, the rest 80% receives paychecks of hunger and living under the constant fear of new cuts and from that 80 % that do still have jobs a good 45% is not getting paid on time cause companies face huge economical problems and they not only fail to pay on time their employees but leaving them without payment for more than 5-6 months which is cruel and inhuman.
To finish this i have to make a quick reference in Germany since you mentioned it cause they seem to be one of the harsher judges and critics concerning th problem with the Greek economy. Germany is the only country that ows to the Greek nation more money than our initial debt in total. Highest european courts decided decades ago that German goverment is obligated to pay to Greece more than 300 billion euros not only for the initial "forced loan"-thats the term they re using when in times of war the "winner" uses the funds, incomes, stored wealth of the country that lost the war- they took during the world war 2 for comprehension for the gold they took from the national treasure that never returned and for all the disasters they brought upon our heads and our property as a nation. Human blood that spilled, attrocities against the human nature and kind and extinction of the human population in entire villages are not to count in that since the last 3-4 years only higher european courts desided that German goverment needs to pay huge amounts of money straight to the descendants that suffered all those nasty crap. And yet no comprehension is to be seing cause Greece is so bloody weak cause our rulers are sold out and they skip claim whats rightfully ours. And they re also signing of agreements that Greece's debt cannot be offset against the other countries debts to Greece.
I have many more things to say but i guess no one will be interested to read them. The thing is that i feel very sad each time i read or listen something of the kind that Greeks are lazy bastards and when people have the feeling that they re paying for Greek people crimes they are mistaken 100% and statements like that are based on ignorance. Or the intel that someone needs if he wants to make a somehow complete view about the subject are on the net placed among trash, hype and organised interests but still are there.
Now coming back to Billy to end this only to say that if the country that gaved to the rest of the world the light and the foundations for civilazion, arts, democracy, mercantilism, modern architecture and engineering, maths, physics, medical science, philosophy and numerous other things that modern society still uses and developes is "failed"as you say then i m just another guy in the internet that will simply say that isnt. Greece atm is a living proof that modern economical system and structure leads to one certain thing: concentration of all the global funds into the hands of few which eventually leads into collapse of all the states with a certain order of the weakest to the strongest or if you prefer from the most disorganized to the most organized. Whats happening now is an example to what will follow in all the countries of european eunion starting from Spain and italy which they didnt realized yet cause their economy gets a minor boost from the organized industry that Greece totaly lacks. Spaniards and Italians are lazy? No they arent. Italians are working machines and very typical at their work. Same applies to Spaniards. I guess the only question that remains to be answered is who takes turn right after. Thing is that non the less we all apply under the same rules andif only fail to see just that and creating grudges between us cause we simply dont care or we have the feeling that whats happening to greece right now will not reach you then we are gonna lose in a game which in a first look doesnt have many odds in our favour. And by "our" i dont mean Greeks, i mean everyone.
P.S. sorry about my bad English and in many cases and for a lot of terms i used google's crappy translate but i hope this wall of text makes sense and opens a road for anyone who feels like debating about a "failed" country like Greece to take a look, gather some info and put some thought before jumps in and start throwing half assed ideas or even the crap that your own media feeds you.
Cheers
Osmunda if you check the title of my thred you will see that is followed with a questionmark cause tbh i was wondering by the time if mods will apply the rules of the forum and ban the violators. I wouldnt mind at all if i was about to be baned aswell for "negativity" or for negative critisism uppon SV and their stuff and i did my posts with full concience in a try to limit my criticism on Sebastians work and not on him personaly. I made this thread after answering to Stephum for his insults with a very constructive and civilized way (at least thats what i think) -my post got removed aswell not cause violating anything but my guess is that was including his harsh and extremely insulting words insulting words and i cant realy say when he got baned and when his post got removed cause tbh i dont know but thats not the point. I know how certain people using forums and i m not easily offended nor sensitive in any way in peoples i dont even know insults. But at certain points and when i m working on average for 10-12 hours per day for pennies, hardly make a living, being forced to move from my home town Athens (in which i was born 31 years ago and lived for all my life and which city i love) to uknown destination in a seek for a better life for me and family, when i m educated and informed on whats happening in my country and whos falt it is for the situation me and my people are forced to go through and being called "lazy Greek", that my country is "worthles" and it shouldnt even considered as a nation among the civilized ones, totaly unprovoked totaly unjustified then i cant help myself from losing my sense and if i had access to the one who said that i wouldnt do anything less than force him eat his keyboard.
Going from textures in Unreal Engine to discussing economy of Greece. Only in MO.
WOW- So you are saying that since 1974 a miniscule Debt of the equivelent of 300,000 Euros had become this monstrosity of a debt? Beccause of the IMF/Central Banks???
Well, maybe I am missing somethng here (yet again) but why is the IMF and Central Banks even needed when Nations (and groups of Natiions like the EU) can print their own Interest Free Debt? Why are they even in this situation.
Bah. Too confusing for me.
BTW- Your English is great.
If you google Greece economic crisis this is what I found:
"Greece had high economic growth during most of the 2000s. From 2000-2007, the economy grew by an average 4.2 percent per year, and foreign capital flowed into. The high growth and low interest rates on government debt helped the government to allow large structural deficits.
To meet the EU's monetary demands, the Government had, however, stated its official economic statistics in a misleading manner. In early 2010 it was discovered also that Greece had paid Goldman Sachs and other big banks hundreds of millions of dollars that they would arrange transactions that hid the actual debt".
To say that Germany is behind Greece debt is just wrong. Greece fucked this up royaly by their own. I have absolutley nothing against greek people, and it´s sad to see normal people get hurt from what their government did. I hope they pull through, but it´s gonna be tough times. We have relatives that live their, but they will now move back to Sweden cause they have no work, and when they did before they got fired they earned pennies for a living. Tough times indeed.
Your info is totaly uncorrect. In between 1998-2000 Greece got into the project for changing its coin to Euro with false economical data that Greek goverment did present to European Eunion after manufactering them. Greek priminister is not in jail for that nor any member of the goverment and many of them where members in the next goverments. Is that a coincidence to you?
I ve never blamed Germany about Greece's pathetic economical situation. Just said that Germany owes to Greece more than Greece owes to Europe and if they had the curtecy to give us our money everybody would be happy. Tbh i ve never meet Scandinavian people making a living in Athens that i live or any other part of Greece that i did visit. Only Scandinavian people where travellers or tourists. But still the fact that Scandinavian people you know are jobeless and thinking coming back home doesnt really impress me since Greek people are thinking on moving to Scandinavia among other destination just because they are jobeless. I wish it was a viable destination for me aswell... Too bad that your clime is not warmer...
But pls lets not find a solution to Greece's economical problems in a gamers forum. If you wanna continue the conversation keep it in pms. I will be glad to listen what people thinks and discuss about it.