You could make an arguement for many things being "pay 2 win" it just depends on how you want to look at it.
Someone takes the 3000 dollars and gets the stuff they want to box a full group... In a pve game its an advantage because unlike a real "solo" player they never have to wait for a group, they never have to roll on "group loot"... so they can make more money than a standard player too.
Generally boxing doesn't work as well if you are talking about a pvp game... but I've seen a few people pull it off rather well in various games.
You could also say that people who buy certain "gamer" oriented controllers are paying 2 win... In an action oriented pvp game if I can input faster/easier than you... and we are of equal skill... your delay kills you. (think of a Razer Naga as a simple and easy example... but there are many examples that could be used).
To me its more in how you would look at the topic... dumping 3000 dollars into a box to simply play one account is not going to give you an advantage... what you are plugging into the box (that might be part of the $3000) might...
I mean lol... if you are doing some kind of rendering for work and happen to game on the same system... then I could see having 3,000 into it. If you were doing "work" while winning... I guess you could say... you were getting paid to win. *.*
We can argue about the various advantages one person may have over another based on their gear, though in my opinion, better gear just means a better user experience, not a better chance to 'win' (at least in the context of MMO's).
However that argument is moot, because when we talk about pay-2-win in the MMO genre we're talking about the level or non-level playing field as provided by the developer. Some people have tried to make the argument that things outside the developers' control are the same as pay-2-win, such as the time you have available to play, give you an advantage over someone who has less time. These are ridiculous arguments. It would be like blaming Milton Bradley for making Connect Four an unfair game because one player has better anyltical/strategic skills than another player. The only sensible thing to discuss when talking about pay-2-win is whether the developer is providing a level playing field, or is willing to deliberately un-level that field for money.
Just an honest question. In all the pay to win conversations going on around here I seldom see much mention of the PC's that some gamers have while most people have a Dell or a Wal Mart or Best Buy PC with a new video card maybe.
Is buying the best possible bandwith speed pay2win?
I know there are sever tiers here where I live with the roadrunner service.
If these things ARE NOT pay2win, then what is ?
Where is the line drawn?
Sorry if this aspect has been covered before. I must have missed it. I am however, genuinely curious where people think the line is drawn. It is not like you can go buy a thousand dollar better Xbox.
TYIA
You forgot to mention plugging your PC into a electric socket being p2w as well, rather than training guinea pigs to row a tiny boat that generated power to run the PC.
The OP's real comment is, online games are already p2w (assuming that paying for better bandwith and equipment, say 3 monitors for ex, give an advantage). The money isn't going to the developer in those cases. Those of you getting your panties into bunch due to developer p2w making it unfair are barking up the wrong tree. To paraphrase.
I agree with him a little. My main concern is with p2w is how it affects the developers. Look at Eve...they could have made the cash shop reasonable...but nope, they went straight for 70 dollar monocles. They were willing to fuck their game longterm for some cash short term.
I think buying expansions is pay 2 win. If you buy an expansion you can get better weapons and higher levels/more skills. Thats not fair, I pay my $15 a month to access ALL the content. Charging to level up and get better gear=pay2win.
The OP's real comment is, online games are already p2w (assuming that paying for better bandwith and equipment, say 3 monitors for ex, give an advantage). The money isn't going to the developer in those cases. Those of you getting your panties into bunch due to developer p2w making it unfair are barking up the wrong tree. To paraphrase.
I agree with him a little. My main concern is with p2w is how it affects the developers. Look at Eve...they could have made the cash shop reasonable...but nope, they went straight for 70 dollar monocles. They were willing to fuck their game longterm for some cash short term.
Actually a $70 isnt even pay2win cause thats just fluff. I read an article once about how devs found that offering only fluff items didn't generate enough income to make it feasible. But once they started offering items that give a slight advantage,profits improved considerabley.
3k for a PC for game is overkill and a waste of money.... My PC has $1,300 worth of parts in the tower, and a 23" $110 on sale monitor. I run all games on max no problems, 3k would be crazy unless you had tons of money sitting around to blow on it.
In competitive gaming, a really good computer just allows you to reach your full potential. If you don't have it in you to be a champion you never will be though.
I like having a nice computer because it allows me to crank up the eye candy while maintaining performance. It's not necessary, but I'm an artist and I enjoy seeing virtual worlds how they were meant to be seen.
Broadband internet is pay to win. I have a 1.4Mbps connection with a 5Gb cap and I pay twice as much for that as most city folk pay for their fancy-smanchy cable systems.
Wait, that's not right. That's P2L. Crap.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Im sitll trying to figure out what you are getting in a $3000 rig that you couldnt get for $900 - $1200...
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Because I'm a believer that you can get a computer that costs 500-800 dollars and have largely the same effect. I recently traded my Sager laptop for a desktop and I get 60 FPS on both WoW and SW:TOR and if you were to build this computer yourself, it would definitely be south of $1000. So no, buying a $3000 computer would not be "paying to win".
When did we start throwing around crap terms like this? I don't care how good your computer is or what you can buy in a cash shop or on Ebay... if you suck... you still lose. Period.
Sorry but getting 60fps on WOW and SWTOR isn't exactly hard.
What about an 80 dollar mouse with 12 buttons, does that count as pay to win?
What about spending money on vitamins and extra healthy food so I never get sick, therefore beating the players who do get sick over the course of years?
What about spending money on a really nice calcuator mod that allows me to calculate the best DPS rotation instantly, while you have to go through it with trial and error, is that pay to win?
What about having so much money I can afford multiple computers and multiple accounts and run myself through instances and bosses? Isn't that pay to win?
What about having SO much money, I pay my friends to play the game for me on my multiple accounts, so that my character never seems to sleep, and then I sell the gold they make online, netting me profit. Is that pay to win or a chinese sweat shop?
EDIT: what about my parents being really rich, they send me to the best school ever. This makes my critical thinking and problem solving abilities far more advanced then yours will ever be, is that pay to win?
EDIT EDIT: What about I'm so rich, I don't need to get a job, therefore I can play videogames all day and all night, and defeat all the bosses 10x sooner then you ever will, therefore allowing me to get all the loot faster! Is that pay to win?
I've had all sorts of PC configurations over the years and found that as long as I can keep the view distance at max and not have the FPS drop below 30, it doesn't matter much. Maybe if you're really good and doing PvP against some really good people, it'll make a difference, but for the majority of people it won't. Most MMOs are pretty easy on the system requirements and are built around latencies much higher than what would be considered acceptable in an FPS. A $3K system would be a complete waste where MMO gaming is concerned unless you plan to do something extreme like multiboxing several clients on the same PC.
There is something in terms of hardware that I feel makes a difference to me though. My Razer Naga mouse and my Z-board Fang keypad. Those two combined allow me to set things up so that I never have to click a hotbar regardless of how many abilities I have while sparing my fingers from doing crazy gymnastics across the keyboard. Heck, not having to constantly click hotbars has made me able to play for longer without getting shoulder and wrist pains from constantly aiming at and clicking hotbar abilities like a maniac. It makes such a difference in my comfort level while playing MMOs that if my Naga mouse died at the same time as my graphics card and my budget would not allow for a new graphics card and mouse, I'd get a new Naga mouse and rip out the GTX260 card from my old system and live with that. That old card will still run MMOs nicely, but I'd feel crippled without all the buttons on my mouse.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Anything that gives you an advantage, either perceived or real, in any game is pay to win. So yes, a gaming rig of any sort is pay to win. I'm just going by the logic used in most pay to win threads. You should therefore be ashamed of using your lofty advantage against others who are not as privileged.
Anything that gives you an advantage, either perceived or real, in any game is pay to win. So yes, a gaming rig of any sort is pay to win. I'm just going by the logic used in most pay to win threads. You should therefore be ashamed of using your lofty advantage against others who are not as privileged.
No, anything you pay to the people who make the game that gives you an advantage is pay2win. If its outside the scope of the players' expectation that the developers provide a level playing field then its just called, life.
Not pay to win it is pay for an advantage. I don't know of any pay to win. I think there is only pay for an advantage.
The biggest advantage is obviously loading times. I know in SWG we used to wait for people to load into a planet and then kill them before they knew what was going on. I was never much for it, but friends used to love it so I tagged along. I saw it a lot in WoW coming out of instances.
I am sure there are many different ways it helps, but that is the first one that comes to my mind.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Anything that gives you an advantage, either perceived or real, in any game is pay to win. So yes, a gaming rig of any sort is pay to win. I'm just going by the logic used in most pay to win threads. You should therefore be ashamed of using your lofty advantage against others who are not as privileged.
No, anything you pay to the people who make the game that gives you an advantage is pay2win. If its outside the scope of the players' expectation that the developers provide a level playing field then its just called, life.
I guess sarcasm doesn't translate via text very well.....
how about coffee. That helps me focus. Is it pay 2 win?
Which I guess would make beer pay 2 lose.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
No, there's a very low limit on how much the power of a PC will help you. If you are using a 10+ year old computer and get 5 fps on the game, then yes you won't be able to play effectively. But there's no difference between 60 fps and 200 fps, thus there's no advantage gained between a decent computer and a monster gaming machine.
If you see the top WoW raiding guilds they play with all settings on low so there is no lag. This shows you that eye candy is not necessary to play at the top level. It's like saying, if I buy a pretty shirt to play Tennis, does looking good give me an advantage on the game? Nope.
Comments
You could make an arguement for many things being "pay 2 win" it just depends on how you want to look at it.
Someone takes the 3000 dollars and gets the stuff they want to box a full group... In a pve game its an advantage because unlike a real "solo" player they never have to wait for a group, they never have to roll on "group loot"... so they can make more money than a standard player too.
Generally boxing doesn't work as well if you are talking about a pvp game... but I've seen a few people pull it off rather well in various games.
You could also say that people who buy certain "gamer" oriented controllers are paying 2 win... In an action oriented pvp game if I can input faster/easier than you... and we are of equal skill... your delay kills you. (think of a Razer Naga as a simple and easy example... but there are many examples that could be used).
To me its more in how you would look at the topic... dumping 3000 dollars into a box to simply play one account is not going to give you an advantage... what you are plugging into the box (that might be part of the $3000) might...
I mean lol... if you are doing some kind of rendering for work and happen to game on the same system... then I could see having 3,000 into it. If you were doing "work" while winning... I guess you could say... you were getting paid to win. *.*
We can argue about the various advantages one person may have over another based on their gear, though in my opinion, better gear just means a better user experience, not a better chance to 'win' (at least in the context of MMO's).
However that argument is moot, because when we talk about pay-2-win in the MMO genre we're talking about the level or non-level playing field as provided by the developer. Some people have tried to make the argument that things outside the developers' control are the same as pay-2-win, such as the time you have available to play, give you an advantage over someone who has less time. These are ridiculous arguments. It would be like blaming Milton Bradley for making Connect Four an unfair game because one player has better anyltical/strategic skills than another player. The only sensible thing to discuss when talking about pay-2-win is whether the developer is providing a level playing field, or is willing to deliberately un-level that field for money.
You forgot to mention plugging your PC into a electric socket being p2w as well, rather than training guinea pigs to row a tiny boat that generated power to run the PC.
The OP's real comment is, online games are already p2w (assuming that paying for better bandwith and equipment, say 3 monitors for ex, give an advantage). The money isn't going to the developer in those cases. Those of you getting your panties into bunch due to developer p2w making it unfair are barking up the wrong tree. To paraphrase.
I agree with him a little. My main concern is with p2w is how it affects the developers. Look at Eve...they could have made the cash shop reasonable...but nope, they went straight for 70 dollar monocles. They were willing to fuck their game longterm for some cash short term.
I think buying expansions is pay 2 win. If you buy an expansion you can get better weapons and higher levels/more skills. Thats not fair, I pay my $15 a month to access ALL the content. Charging to level up and get better gear=pay2win.
Actually a $70 isnt even pay2win cause thats just fluff. I read an article once about how devs found that offering only fluff items didn't generate enough income to make it feasible. But once they started offering items that give a slight advantage,profits improved considerabley.
Yeah.... I'll just leave this here:
3k for a PC for game is overkill and a waste of money.... My PC has $1,300 worth of parts in the tower, and a 23" $110 on sale monitor. I run all games on max no problems, 3k would be crazy unless you had tons of money sitting around to blow on it.
"Sorry if this aspect has been covered before."
Trust me it hasn't, and if it has it's just as wrong now as it was then.
In competitive gaming, a really good computer just allows you to reach your full potential. If you don't have it in you to be a champion you never will be though.
I like having a nice computer because it allows me to crank up the eye candy while maintaining performance. It's not necessary, but I'm an artist and I enjoy seeing virtual worlds how they were meant to be seen.
Wait, that's not right. That's P2L. Crap.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
The only real pay to win that I am aware of is buying hacks, but that is cheating.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Sorry but getting 60fps on WOW and SWTOR isn't exactly hard.
What about an 80 dollar mouse with 12 buttons, does that count as pay to win?
What about spending money on vitamins and extra healthy food so I never get sick, therefore beating the players who do get sick over the course of years?
What about spending money on a really nice calcuator mod that allows me to calculate the best DPS rotation instantly, while you have to go through it with trial and error, is that pay to win?
What about having so much money I can afford multiple computers and multiple accounts and run myself through instances and bosses? Isn't that pay to win?
What about having SO much money, I pay my friends to play the game for me on my multiple accounts, so that my character never seems to sleep, and then I sell the gold they make online, netting me profit. Is that pay to win or a chinese sweat shop?
EDIT: what about my parents being really rich, they send me to the best school ever. This makes my critical thinking and problem solving abilities far more advanced then yours will ever be, is that pay to win?
EDIT EDIT: What about I'm so rich, I don't need to get a job, therefore I can play videogames all day and all night, and defeat all the bosses 10x sooner then you ever will, therefore allowing me to get all the loot faster! Is that pay to win?
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
I've had all sorts of PC configurations over the years and found that as long as I can keep the view distance at max and not have the FPS drop below 30, it doesn't matter much. Maybe if you're really good and doing PvP against some really good people, it'll make a difference, but for the majority of people it won't. Most MMOs are pretty easy on the system requirements and are built around latencies much higher than what would be considered acceptable in an FPS. A $3K system would be a complete waste where MMO gaming is concerned unless you plan to do something extreme like multiboxing several clients on the same PC.
There is something in terms of hardware that I feel makes a difference to me though. My Razer Naga mouse and my Z-board Fang keypad. Those two combined allow me to set things up so that I never have to click a hotbar regardless of how many abilities I have while sparing my fingers from doing crazy gymnastics across the keyboard. Heck, not having to constantly click hotbars has made me able to play for longer without getting shoulder and wrist pains from constantly aiming at and clicking hotbar abilities like a maniac. It makes such a difference in my comfort level while playing MMOs that if my Naga mouse died at the same time as my graphics card and my budget would not allow for a new graphics card and mouse, I'd get a new Naga mouse and rip out the GTX260 card from my old system and live with that. That old card will still run MMOs nicely, but I'd feel crippled without all the buttons on my mouse.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Anything that gives you an advantage, either perceived or real, in any game is pay to win. So yes, a gaming rig of any sort is pay to win. I'm just going by the logic used in most pay to win threads. You should therefore be ashamed of using your lofty advantage against others who are not as privileged.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I do shell out an extra $5 per month on a gamer IP address with my internet service provider
this way it ensures my pings are at below 90ms than the average 300 ms I used to get
how about coffee. That helps me focus. Is it pay 2 win?
No, anything you pay to the people who make the game that gives you an advantage is pay2win. If its outside the scope of the players' expectation that the developers provide a level playing field then its just called, life.
Not pay to win it is pay for an advantage. I don't know of any pay to win. I think there is only pay for an advantage.
The biggest advantage is obviously loading times. I know in SWG we used to wait for people to load into a planet and then kill them before they knew what was going on. I was never much for it, but friends used to love it so I tagged along. I saw it a lot in WoW coming out of instances.
I am sure there are many different ways it helps, but that is the first one that comes to my mind.
--John Ruskin
I guess sarcasm doesn't translate via text very well.....
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Which I guess would make beer pay 2 lose.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
No, there's a very low limit on how much the power of a PC will help you. If you are using a 10+ year old computer and get 5 fps on the game, then yes you won't be able to play effectively. But there's no difference between 60 fps and 200 fps, thus there's no advantage gained between a decent computer and a monster gaming machine.
If you see the top WoW raiding guilds they play with all settings on low so there is no lag. This shows you that eye candy is not necessary to play at the top level. It's like saying, if I buy a pretty shirt to play Tennis, does looking good give me an advantage on the game? Nope.