Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Nice Guys Finish Last
Boatsmate
Member Posts: 208
I have been playing MMORPG's a respectable time, all the way back to EQ1, and most of the big ones. Is it me, or does it seem to you like the so-called,"Bad Guys" in a game always are the better at pvp and win the most? I know,I know, the lore in games usually expalins that the bad guys aren't bad...just misunderstood. But it seems to me whether it is the Horde in WoW, the Defiant in Rift, or The Imps in SWTOR, etc, that they rule in pvp.I realize that there are exceptions, not sleighting your excellent Guardian/Alliance pvp guild, I am speaking in general terms. The big picture. I have heard this phenomenon discussed for years in games. Expalnations I have heard range from real pvp types just gravitate toward the ,"Bad Guys", to that those nimble kids play bad guys and are just too fast for everyone. I have even heard some allege game designer bias toward the bad guys. Do the Bad Guys win more?
Ballerinas are always on their toes. Why don't they just get taller ballerinas?
Comments
It could just be an assumption on my part, but it seems that PvPers and people that prefer more damage-based classes tend to be drawn more towards the "Bad Guy" role, or dark and misunderstood role, whereas the PvE players tend to be drawn more toward the support roles and "Good Guys".
I've seen this in several MMOs I played, and it seems to be a constant trend.
Because rightious justice doesn't help you when you are fighting a bloody melee...fury, rage, aggresion, hate, ferocity...yeah...those all help.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
Usually I just stray away from anything that looks human. And of course I go for the renegade/bad guy.. because I'm not that type in real life.
Gamer by nature,
poet by heart.
That is probably part of it, but I think it also a lot about character and class design.
Good in MMOs tend to mean what D&D players call "lawful stupid" while the bad guys often are better made.
Not everyone on the good side should be a silly paladin that stops and give candy to any kid he meets, many of the heros in litterature are working for the good side but still are interesting bad boys, take Han Solo, Matt Caulthon or Lina Inverse to mention 3 bad boy/girl heroes.
And I think the real problem is to split up things in good and bad from the beginning, I like Martins House idea better from "A song of ice and fire" (Game of thrones). You get several factions which can have both good and bad characters there instead and it adds a pinch of diplomacy as well to things.
Few people are truly good or evil in their own perspective.
The bad guy/good guy dichotomy is just horrible game design when there's PvP involved.
As with many other things DAoC got it right, 3 factions, but no good/bad ones, just different ones.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
My Marauder was indeed a bad piece of ass when he squared off against a Bright Wizard.
I think a few more might have even higher potential, like 5 or even 7.
But yeah, it proved the concept, 2 factions ain't enough.
I think the number of factions doesn't even matter that much, more important is that the factions don't match the good guy/bad guy theme. The good guy/bad guy theme works well in books or movies but when you try to take that IP into the MMORPG genre you instantly have a problem.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I agree andam glad that you touched on the political side - that side is rarely addressed in mmo's. It is in EVE and in some PvP games but it could be addressed alot better. Hoping World of Darkness addresses it. Sometimes one can do more damage to an enemy alliance through subterfuge, and dealings with the enemies of your enemies. Just my opinion.
Currently bored with MMO's.
In theory yes, but players will just gravitate to the side that's winning, regardless of good/evil, and we're back to one side dying out.
Not exactly true! In daoc everyone else was bad and we were good!
We were always outnumbered 2 to 1, and thus we were always the underdogs...which made us special!
They were evil i tell you..not a dwarf among those albs and hibs. They had to be evil!
lol
I think that is very true. There's a lot of fair weather fans out there.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Screw factions. Screw being the special hero. Lets just get in, work together or kill each other.
I can't decide to make my first one a ranger or mechanic. I'll end up making one of every class eventually anyway though...
Because being a truly good guy is one of the hardest tasks in the world. Most just give up and embrace the evil within them.
I agree. That is probably why the funnest PvP I've ever personally experienced was in Lineage II in it's prime. No "Good Guys" or "Bad Guys" predetermined by the Devs just players. All of the "factions" in that game were player conceived as Alliances of Clans. This way the players decide who's "good" or "bad" solely by their actions in game. I also really like EVE for this same reason.
I've noticed even though I love PvP in MMOs that are designed around it I tend to shy away from PvP in PvE oriented games for this very reason. The "Bad Guys" always seem to have a distinct advantage only because most of the good PvPers seem to gravitate to that side over the "Good Guys". This makes for some very unbalanced PvP in most cases which is just no fun in group PvP situations no matter which side you personally choose. It's no fun to loose all of the time nor is it any fun to just walk all over your opponents every time.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Actually I'm interested in different reasons why things seem one-sided with factions.
IMSO (In my Scientific Opinion) I'd theorize that the biggest reason is that people believe one side has better players, and thus the good players (tired of losing) switch to the "better" side with the "better" players. This multiplies from the beginning until all of the good players are on one side.
IMO, morale probably has a lot to do with it. It really seems like there are unchangable realities without any rational or reason, such as... battleground ownership amongst factions at different levels.
In DAoC, Faction #1 would own Thidranki most of the time, Faction #2 would own the next popular level battleground, and Faction #3 would own the next. In my server, Midgard always owned Thidranki, Albion always owned the lvl 30's battlegrounds, Midgard the 40's, and Hibernia owned the max level frontier. It made no sense at all.
In WoW, it depends on the server. One server will have ALLIANCE always win, while the other will have HORDE always win.
Yet even in HORDE-dominated servers, Alliance almost ALWAYS wins this one specific battleground. It's as if horde loses before the match begins.
I honestly don't know what causes one-sided factions in PvP, but something does. I always like to play the losing side because I am extremely good at video games and I know I can make a difference (or even win, if 1 player can make a big enough difference.)
Unfortunately one side still typically wins most matches, because my team is just THAT bad. Of course, I have to play the underdog, because the game is INCREDIBLY boring if I play the winning side, and help stack the advantage by participating. (Nothing is worse than a side that is already roflstomping the enemy constantly, getting another really good player to multiply that advantage.)
It's really sad that people will do anything for a win, including giving up challenging and fun gameplay.
I find myself to be in the minority to WANT to play the underdog BECAUSE it is more fun BECAUSE it is more challenge.
I find myself to be entirely alone saying it is BORING and stupid to play the winning side with no competition or challenge.
Free wins and having a team so much better that the enemy is spawn camped for the entire game is incredibly boring... but fighting that one guy who seems just as good as you in what feels like a Hero v. Hero battle while all the crappier players dance around us? Now THAT is fun.