Originally posted by En1Gma to be honest.... I think the combat upgrade is a foretaste of open game PvP But that's my opinion
Just curious En1gma, why do you think that ? Not that I dissagree but I'm curious why you think that and signs you see that you feel are pointing in that direction ?
Originally posted by Lasastard lol this discussion really reminds me of the SWG Combat upgrade. Some people whining like hell on the forums predicting SWG's death within the next weeks...but I think most people will agree that the CU didnt do any damage to the game. In fact many people really like the CU after they got used to it.
Lol, if you think the uproar around the SWG CU was bad, you haven't read the SWG forums in the last few days
I think the combat upgrade is a foretaste of open game PvP But that's my opinion
if that happens it could be the day I quite EQ II.
If Johny know what is good for him, he would think twice...see even Fadeus would react to this. We are not talking about silly me saying I would not consider a return in their games if they put silly PvP. We are not talking anymore of the long term lost customers, back in 2003 and before...we are talking about the customers who remain loyal, all those years, against storms and winds, that took the first place to brace the unworthy who defy the Holiness of King Johny!
I dont want to say En1gma is wrong, but if he is right, then DAoC will outmatch alone all SoE products before 2 years pass.
No matter what SoE does, it is at a strong disadvantage to charm new customers. We are not talking about a "Cryptic" new company showing up, we are talking about a company with a past. You get both edges and flaws from a past. Of course you can always throw away the edges (Fadeus & friends in my example), but you cant remove the flaws. I would have try SWG if the company name didnt ring a bell or would it have been Lucas alone, when I read SoE, I double check the features, the games rules and everything before I realize it was a no thanks answer(prior the CU, even worser now).
Do you really think a company with no PvP past could sway the PvP market "en masse"? They would attract a small part, but will it compensate their lost? I doubt it.
Losing Fadeus & friends (hell-o Noobourne) would be to SoE like losing it old guard.
I know Fade-us only say EQ2...but SoE is an entity that has a strong trouble to remain diversified, if a game goes in 1 way, all the others feels it inside their core. See, SoE(or Blizzard would be on the same pattern for this) is like a multi-headed beast. NCsoft is many smallers beasts. Big difference.
(For the same reasons, Vanguard needs to have raiding in a conventional ways, at least on some servers if not all...I still hope against everything rational that Vanguard will have a few non-raiding servers with a LDoN system(I doubt Brad would even approve LDoN, but I can dream) and that those servers become maddly popular and beat WoW population...hehe)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Oh good lord, lol, the sky is not falling here people. Not in a million years would SOE add *open* PvP to EQ2. They'll just filter in some restricted stuff like AO, DAOC , etc.
Grats tho, Ano, I think this is the first post of yours I've ever seen where you made it through without the phrase "solo uberness"
Unfortunately a combat upgrade (nerf) is entirely necessary. For certain class combinations the game is currently too easy and unchallenging and this can't be allowed to continue into future expansions. Players will be able to complete all the content and hit max level far too quickly and therefore get bored again well before the next expansion.
Of course I don't know if the upgrade is being done in the right way, I won't pass judgement until it goes live. All I'm sure of is that change is required for the long term health of the game.
My argument isn't against a change but against THIS change and the theory behind it. Their answer to endgame is to nerf all spells, skills, etc by massive amounts, so that you progress more slowly through the levels -- not because that game is better that way, but because they need to meter your progress so you don't "finish" the game too quickly. (aka WoW). What they need to do ISN'T ruin a game that lots of folks love with this sort of change but come up with, as I"ve argued in other posts, new and INVENTIVE ways of having an endgame. Or better, dispose of the word "endgame" altogether, since there shouldn't BE an ENDgame. Come up with methods of progressions that keep people interested -- and for God's sake, make them plot-oriented and involving of the players' time and creativeness. Not going into suggestions for this again, but I and others have made dozens of suggestions already. (city positions, a "nobility" structure, a medieval "jousting" PvP tournament, all coupled together to INVOLVE people in ROLEPLAYING their characters and offering alternative methods for advancement than the usual "NERF everything so people advance slower").
Interesting tidbit. Sony has put into Beta servers a change to hte locked encounter system I loathe so much. And ironically, it looks like they're actually doing exactly what I wanted them to do (frightening, that doesn't happen often).
First looks, from the post (supposedly more information tomorrow): the first person to target a creature gets the XP and rewards (loot). So if someone comes along to kill it, they'll get neither XP nor rewards. Second, these changes are NOT going to be in place for RAIDS (which continue in the original locked-encounter rules). Third, this allows the "wandering Shaman" playstyle that I personally loved in EQ1 to be viable, since you'll now be able to buff/heal someone who needs it. Again, KSing is pointless, since the individual "stealing the kill" won't get any XP from it nor the loot -- that's all "locked" to the first person who "locked" the encounter to them.
So, as they're ruining my classes on the Test server (Warden; Paladin; Swashbuckler, for instance), they're changing this in a (to me) positive way.
The most amazing part of all is that one of the reasons I left EQ2 and my 50 warden is that I felt he was to confined in the "healer" role, and there was no way to make him anything but a walking syringe.
And from the look of it now they are going to corner him even MORE? Not sure how would one would do that though, the next step would be to remove all weapons skills and spells wich dealt DMG. Are they?
If any change at ALL should be made to EQ2 in this regard it is the other way around, it must be, I honestly have a hard time believing what I have read. Did they like buy Michaels chimp and put him in charge over there or?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think allot of people are way to emotionally involved in these post. To lay it out clearly, if they do make the game no more fun, people will quit weather or not their shaking their fist saying bahhh! You suck Im going to quit. They will just loose interest and quit playing. Much like I did after the first two months of game play. I think the game is fine as-is, some of the DPS classes need more DPS but all and all, I cant see this combat downgrade doing anything but pissing people off. If I was SOE I would try to upgrade profession that need upgrading instead of nerving professions people love.
I do agree this is probably a move before they take the game into a full on open pvp system in an effort to attract more Asian gamers.
Well I quit my SOE Pass over the SWG XP fiasco and now the new expansion that caters the game even MORE to Jedi. And thus I'm no longer in EQ2 either. I am glad, actually, that I quit. If nothing else I'll avoid the headaches of having to deal with yet another game full of whining people who haven't even tried the changes before complaining about them.
No offense folks: If you haven't tried the changes then keep yer yap shut and go try them before posting about them. All it does is make you look ignorant. What I saw on Test before I cancelled my AAP the changes looked ok. Some needed a bit more tweaking but overall *most* of the changes seemed to be pretty well thought out. Note: I do think there are a few boneheaded ones in there but I'm not gonna go into it since it's no longer my problem
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
while i still like the combat changes (i admit for the most part ive only been following paladin changes ... i love what i see there though. heck in the last update they gave me 3 entirely new skills) if SOE ever impliments open PVP (and i highly, HIGHLY doubt they will) i will quit the game, and i know a lot of other people who will leave with me.
Schutzbar - Human Warrior - Windrunner Alliance - World of Warcraft Nihilanth - Kerra Paladin - Blackburrow - EverQuest II XBL Gamertag - Eagle15GT
Originally posted by spydermr2 Originally posted by Noubourne They are bringing damage down across the board and making adjustments at the same time to balance dps and other utility functions between classes: ie: wizard more powerful than mages, etc.You claim to know so much, and yet no one has mentioned WHY this is happening. It's being done in front of the new expansion to balance out everything for the next 10 levels, and all the new content. Right now, many high end players are critical of the "end game" because encounters are trivial. In order to create mroe space for high end players in different zones, they are going to adjust everyone so that next year they don't have to create level 200 mobs to fight level 75 PCs. It makes perfect sense, and in the long run, it will be worth it. Even in spite of all the whining that will take place.It seems like a big change because it is. You can call it a nerf if you want. The fact is, it will be good for the game. If you're too new to realize that, then quit again till the dust settles and start up again 6 months from now. You won't notice a thing.
It's not about the "why", it's about the "what", as in the specifics of what they're doing. As for me being "too new", I've been playing online RPGs since the day they were TEXT, and played EQ to the present day. I'm far from "new" at any of these games. Played EQ2 in beta, played for a few months after release. Left. Came back because they were CHANGING things in a positive direction. Note that part. CHANGE is what brought me BACK. Because the changes that were made were of a positive, immersive direction.
What's being complained about is that the changes are all, to many of us who are playing on the test server and are EXPERIENCING the crap they're foisting off as an "upgrade", specifically NOT constructive nor do they increase the overall "fun" of the game. In many cases, they achieve exactly the OPPOSITE -- by drawing things out. I have no doubt that they're going to make it harder to progress, aka SLOWER -- but just reorienting things to slow people's progressions because they can't come up with a more inventive end-game (everyone getting to lvl 50 too fast? Need to slow that down, so we can put in a lvl 50-60 and not have it be "eaten up" too fast). here's a thought: let's figure out how to build an endgame that doesn't just require depowering everything and protracting all the experiences before that. Cause that's basically all they're doing. The solution is: slow the game down for everyone so they don't get to 50 as fast. When specific spells are being depowered by as much as 75% (from doing almost 500 points of damage to doing 75 points), it's a NERF. And it's not particularly inspired on their part. This isn't the DIFFICULT course to choose. The difficult course for them to choose would be to actually think and create a new aspect for the endgame.
Basically, it's not change we're arguing against -- change is what brought me back to the game several months ago. It's WHAT they're doing SPECIFICALLY, and how that's going to just turn the game into an endless, slow grind. Among other things, WoW is pulverizing SOE in subscriptions because WowW, while having even less of an endgame than EQ2 and ultimately being more boring, is more FUN on the way to becoming boring.
If Sony thinks the changes on the Test server are going to do anything to improve their subscription rate, they're deluding themselves. I'm a fan of the game, a fan of the direction they were heading for the past few months -- but what they're doing on the test server, in the name of this Combat Upgrade, is not a POSITIVE change for the overall game. Again, since people can't seem to read for themselves, let me repeat: I'm not saying don't do a combat upgrade, I'm arguing that the specifics of THIS combat upgrade, as on the TEST server, is not a POSITIVE change.
By the way, you might try arguing a point instead of resorting to childish "if you're too new to realise" garbage. Turning to that sort of personalization is just that: childish. And it doesn't help your argument at all, especially since you have NO IDEA how "new" I am or any of us are. Here's a clue: we MIGHT have a different perspective on the specifics of the changes and DISAGREE with you that those changes are positive or constructive. That disagreement in no way makes us "new" or any other stupid comments about someone's playing style you choose to make.
I dont' have to know how new you are. You sound like a 12 yr old, so you'll get treated like one.
First of all, it's NOT an upgrade, it's an adjustment down in power. Read the patch notes and get a clue. It's not about slowing progression (although that very well may be a slight side effect), it's about making the END GAME encounters equivalent in power/level to the high end players. It's about pushing a few high end encounters further up toward the end of a raid's abilities for DPS and healing. As a result, some encounters that were previously trivial at 50 are now no longer trivial, and it creates MORE for high end players to do. It essentially creates MORE places for end game players to go. They assumed at release that players would have X encounters at level 50 to gain experience and be challenged. They overshot player strength and now they're going to adjust it. It makes perfect sense whether you like it or not.
Progression is so easy already, I can't imagine that you'd complain that it gets a little harder. It will still be too easy. If you really think the game is that boring, then QUIT!!
If you don't think the current encounters in the game are fun or entertaining, then say so. Just don't pretend that a player damage/power adjustment to open up more encounters to level 50 players is supposed to be an "upgrade" when it's quite clearly NOT intended to be that, and then pretend that you're being disappointed by the "upgrade" because it's a downgrade. It's SUPPOSED to be a downgrade. It's NOT going to make everyone happy right away. It's a fix for a previous overadjustment to player abilities.
Don't be such a whiner.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain
I dont' have to know how new you are. You sound like a 12 yr old, so you'll get treated like one.
First of all, it's NOT an upgrade, it's an adjustment down in power. Read the patch notes and get a clue. It's not about slowing progression (although that very well may be a slight side effect), it's about making the END GAME encounters equivalent in power/level to the high end players. It's about pushing a few high end encounters further up toward the end of a raid's abilities for DPS and healing. As a result, some encounters that were previously trivial at 50 are now no longer trivial, and it creates MORE for high end players to do. It essentially creates MORE places for end game players to go. They assumed at release that players would have X encounters at level 50 to gain experience and be challenged. They overshot player strength and now they're going to adjust it. It makes perfect sense whether you like it or not.
Progression is so easy already, I can't imagine that you'd complain that it gets a little harder. It will still be too easy. If you really think the game is that boring, then QUIT!!
If you don't think the current encounters in the game are fun or entertaining, then say so. Just don't pretend that a player damage/power adjustment to open up more encounters to level 50 players is supposed to be an "upgrade" when it's quite clearly NOT intended to be that, and then pretend that you're being disappointed by the "upgrade" because it's a downgrade. It's SUPPOSED to be a downgrade. It's NOT going to make everyone happy right away. It's a fix for a previous overadjustment to player abilities.
Don't be such a whiner.
---- end of quote ----
Interestingly, I seem to have made an enemy by using SONY'S word -- "upgrade" -- which, at least according to this person, it isn't. And again, curiously, I would point out that it was SOE -- aka the makers of the game -- who called it that. So, evidently, according to Noubourne, we're "whiners" and being "childish" if we use the word for this upcoming change that SONY, the developers, use. Quick, folks, remember that Noubourne doesn't like our using words that offend him, especially if -- God forbid -- you use the phrase that the people who control and develop the game use. Shocking. Who would have thought that we'd call SOE's self-described "Combat Upgrade"... a "combat upgrade"??!! Amazing.
Secondly, nowhere in here is this a whine. Whining would be "ohmyGodthissux, cause etc etc" without arguing any actual points. You and I may disagree, but calling people childish or 12-yr-old doesn't (to repeat) make your argument stronger -- though it goes far in revealing your own mentality.
My point has been, throughout, that changes to the system should be made. And, that the changes being made (not all of them, but certainly the ones I've seen firsthand on the Test server (which, by the way, gives me FIRSTHAND experience to talk about this)) are NOT overall positive or constructive. I have argued for a revamp of what the genre considers the "endgame" -- both in this post and in others. An endgame strategy that actually involves something other than adjustments to the combat dynamic, for instance -- one that uses those last three letters in the MMORPG genre title.
"Childish" is making a point without supporting it. Arguing a point, providing alternative solutions, and refusing to be categorised by someone who can't seem to make a point without calling people names or insulting people solely because they DISAGREE with you is not "childish" or "12-yr".
You have an opinion, that much you've expressed (sort of). Though so far, all you've done is resort to name-calling and seem to be resolutely determined that your opinion and playstyle is the only allowable one. SURPRISE! Noubourne's playstyle and opinion ISN"T the only one in the world, and just because you happen to like what they're doing DOESN'T mean that those of us who love the game and want to see it improved happen to agree with YOUR definition of playstyle or improvements.
After trying SWG I cancelled my all access pass. The only thing that I regretted was leaving behind EQ II. Now it seems like I picked a good time to get out. I was pretty underwhelmed with SWG as it was, and the recent massive XP nerf is pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard of devs doing to one of these games.
More on topic, I read some dev posts on the EQ II boards indicating that the DPS of most classes would stay the same or be slightly boosted. I believed this, and thus felt a slight pang at leaving what I believe is currently one of the best MMORPGs on the market. There aren't too many games that offer the depth that EQ II does, and that are fun to play grouped or solo as pretty much any class you pick. But the latest word coming from the test server is that it was a complete lie. Most classes are in fact getting a huge DPS nerf, pretty much cutting the legs off of the solo game for them. Go SOE . . .
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I only have low lvl charcters on test (below 20) so i cannot comment much about the higher lvl parts of combatupgrade myself. But on the low lvl charcters soloing solo mobs did not feel much different.
I play a 50 paladin and a 46 warlock and a few lower lv characters and have been doing some raids (i'm in no hardcore raiding guidl but we raid twice a week and are currently doing Deception Raids so i know a bit about endgame), and I can definitely see why the combat changes are needed. when you make a group that has same setup as a raid maintank group you can buff your tank to a lvl where he is practically unhittable from standard mobs. Even groups with not totally perfect setup can trivialize a lot content, Just yesterday we had to fight down to nagafen because no group inviser was online. we had a 50 templar, a 50 mystic, a 47 warden, a 46 assasin and 2 lvl 50 paladins one of them was me and i was tanking. the only time when we got a bit into trouble was when we had 5 heroic encounters on us at the same time but even that did not cause a single death. Also Splitpaw group arena is a good example why the changes are needed, you can do the very hard version without getting into any problems: if you are in a lvl 50 group the final boss is lvl 58 but you still don't get into any real problems (only encounter in ther that sometimes gets a bit interesting is if the 2nd mob (the warlock - spider) has devastation and decides to use it). To make challenging group content for lvl 50 or near lvl 50 groups they had to rely on group x2 encounters like in Nekt 2 or Icy Digs. Another thing is that some spells are way to overpowered: the unbreakable aoe root that Wizard and warlock get at lvl 40 make soloing heroics quite easy for them, the Conjurer tank pet seems to be overpowered too, Warrior classes stack too much HP with their selfbuffs (at least compared to other tank classes) so the others had no chances to tank some epic encounters that were tuned for guardians in perfect maintank groups, there are a lot other things that were overpowered too (warlock single target dps in early 40s is insane).
As said before i did not see the high lvl results of the changes myself, as i didn't get into beta and have no character over lvl 20 on test, but i read a bit on the forums and yes some classes get some hard hits. but to be true some of these hits are needed some tank classes were able to outdps most scouts and even some mage classes when they had right group, and sometimes even when soloing. And Correcting DPS classes up was not the way to go as then mobs would have needed a increases too...
I can understand the need for the changes and also expect a few nerfs to most classes but it is a critical thing to balance so i have to wait to see how it plays after the changes to be sure if the changes were done good or bad.
Am I on the SWG forums? Everywhere I look people refer to these changes as a "combat upgrade". In the server notes, and updates from the developers, however, they are always referred to as "changes" or "revamp". It seems the people who are most vocal about being disappointed are calling it (and perhaps expecting) an "Upgrade", where it is clearly not meant to be so.
Here's an excellent read for some of you, who may or may not play on the test server, and who probably do not do much reading of patch notes or dev explanations regardless of your "experience" on the test server:
Some combinations of abilities are a bit too effective, causing some of the end-game to get into the realm of trivial and, therefore, boring. This is one of the most frequent causes of burnout at the high end of EQ2. People figure out "the trick" and there just "isn't any challenge left." While issues like this won't impact the majority of people, it should come as a relief to those on the high end.
In everything that we're doing with this revamp
If you look at all the Test Server update notes, you'll see they are in fact called "Combat Changes", and not an upgrade. Only once are these new adjustments referred to as an "improvement", and shortly thereafter you'll find the above paragraph explaining that some combos/abilities are too powerful for what the originally expected to be part of the end game at level 50, making it trivial and limiting the options for end gamers.
You very well may not like what is going to happen, but stop pretending that you've been sold an "Upgrade" that has turned out to be a downgrade, when since before any of the changes hit test there has been ample information available to inform you that there were going to be downgrades in power. It's fine to have critiques of what is happening, but if you don't keep it in perspective with how difficult it makes the end game encounters (ie: if some are impossible now, that's too far), then your opinion is going to amount to nothing more than a whine, regardless of how much you've actually played with the new changes.
Valid Criticism: King Zalak is impossible with the new changes because scout damage has been nerfed beyond belief.
Invalid Criticism: MY SCOUT DOES ONLY 10% OF THE DAMAGE HE USED TO DO!!!!!
Valid Criticism: Mages should not be able to put out more damage than a Wizard in a fight under 2 minutes.
Invalid Criticism: ICE COMET IS NERFED BEYOND BELIEF OMG I SUCK NOW SCREW YOU SOE!11!!!1!
No amount of well-reasoned posts are going to count you among the mature and experienced players if you continue to ignore the bigger picture, and no amount of denial is going to give you a more informed perspective on the game. Reading comprehension is a start though. I suggest you take a time out and do some reading on the topic before you spout off about how much you hate playing with the changes. Not every patch was made to make you happy, you know.
If you really are that upset about it, I really do believe you should take some time off and come back in 6 months. Like I said before; you won't notice a thing when you come back, and the game will be better off in the long run with the new balance between PCs and the number of encounters that pose a challenge to them.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain
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Lol, if you think the uproar around the SWG CU was bad, you haven't read the SWG forums in the last few days
if that happens it could be the day I quite EQ II.
If Johny know what is good for him, he would think twice...see even Fadeus would react to this. We are not talking about silly me saying I would not consider a return in their games if they put silly PvP. We are not talking anymore of the long term lost customers, back in 2003 and before...we are talking about the customers who remain loyal, all those years, against storms and winds, that took the first place to brace the unworthy who defy the Holiness of King Johny!
I dont want to say En1gma is wrong, but if he is right, then DAoC will outmatch alone all SoE products before 2 years pass.
No matter what SoE does, it is at a strong disadvantage to charm new customers. We are not talking about a "Cryptic" new company showing up, we are talking about a company with a past. You get both edges and flaws from a past. Of course you can always throw away the edges (Fadeus & friends in my example), but you cant remove the flaws. I would have try SWG if the company name didnt ring a bell or would it have been Lucas alone, when I read SoE, I double check the features, the games rules and everything before I realize it was a no thanks answer(prior the CU, even worser now).
Do you really think a company with no PvP past could sway the PvP market "en masse"? They would attract a small part, but will it compensate their lost? I doubt it.
Losing Fadeus & friends (hell-o Noobourne) would be to SoE like losing it old guard.
I know Fade-us only say EQ2...but SoE is an entity that has a strong trouble to remain diversified, if a game goes in 1 way, all the others feels it inside their core. See, SoE(or Blizzard would be on the same pattern for this) is like a multi-headed beast. NCsoft is many smallers beasts. Big difference.
(For the same reasons, Vanguard needs to have raiding in a conventional ways, at least on some servers if not all...I still hope against everything rational that Vanguard will have a few non-raiding servers with a LDoN system(I doubt Brad would even approve LDoN, but I can dream) and that those servers become maddly popular and beat WoW population...hehe)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Oh good lord, lol, the sky is not falling here people. Not in a million years would SOE add *open* PvP to EQ2. They'll just filter in some restricted stuff like AO, DAOC , etc.
Grats tho, Ano, I think this is the first post of yours I've ever seen where you made it through without the phrase "solo uberness"
Unfortunately a combat upgrade (nerf) is entirely necessary. For certain class combinations the game is currently too easy and unchallenging and this can't be allowed to continue into future expansions. Players will be able to complete all the content and hit max level far too quickly and therefore get bored again well before the next expansion.
Of course I don't know if the upgrade is being done in the right way, I won't pass judgement until it goes live. All I'm sure of is that change is required for the long term health of the game.
My argument isn't against a change but against THIS change and the theory behind it. Their answer to endgame is to nerf all spells, skills, etc by massive amounts, so that you progress more slowly through the levels -- not because that game is better that way, but because they need to meter your progress so you don't "finish" the game too quickly. (aka WoW). What they need to do ISN'T ruin a game that lots of folks love with this sort of change but come up with, as I"ve argued in other posts, new and INVENTIVE ways of having an endgame. Or better, dispose of the word "endgame" altogether, since there shouldn't BE an ENDgame. Come up with methods of progressions that keep people interested -- and for God's sake, make them plot-oriented and involving of the players' time and creativeness. Not going into suggestions for this again, but I and others have made dozens of suggestions already. (city positions, a "nobility" structure, a medieval "jousting" PvP tournament, all coupled together to INVOLVE people in ROLEPLAYING their characters and offering alternative methods for advancement than the usual "NERF everything so people advance slower").
Flame away!
Interesting tidbit. Sony has put into Beta servers a change to hte locked encounter system I loathe so much. And ironically, it looks like they're actually doing exactly what I wanted them to do (frightening, that doesn't happen often).
First looks, from the post (supposedly more information tomorrow): the first person to target a creature gets the XP and rewards (loot). So if someone comes along to kill it, they'll get neither XP nor rewards. Second, these changes are NOT going to be in place for RAIDS (which continue in the original locked-encounter rules). Third, this allows the "wandering Shaman" playstyle that I personally loved in EQ1 to be viable, since you'll now be able to buff/heal someone who needs it. Again, KSing is pointless, since the individual "stealing the kill" won't get any XP from it nor the loot -- that's all "locked" to the first person who "locked" the encounter to them.
So, as they're ruining my classes on the Test server (Warden; Paladin; Swashbuckler, for instance), they're changing this in a (to me) positive way.
Mixed messages, anyone?
The most amazing part of all is that one of the reasons I left EQ2 and my 50 warden is that I felt he was to confined in the "healer" role, and there was no way to make him anything but a walking syringe.
And from the look of it now they are going to corner him even MORE? Not sure how would one would do that though, the next step would be to remove all weapons skills and spells wich dealt DMG. Are they?
If any change at ALL should be made to EQ2 in this regard it is the other way around, it must be, I honestly have a hard time believing what I have read. Did they like buy Michaels chimp and put him in charge over there or?
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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I think allot of people are way to emotionally involved in these post. To lay it out clearly, if they do make the game no more fun, people will quit weather or not their shaking their fist saying bahhh! You suck Im going to quit. They will just loose interest and quit playing. Much like I did after the first two months of game play. I think the game is fine as-is, some of the DPS classes need more DPS but all and all, I cant see this combat downgrade doing anything but pissing people off. If I was SOE I would try to upgrade profession that need upgrading instead of nerving professions people love.
I do agree this is probably a move before they take the game into a full on open pvp system in an effort to attract more Asian gamers.
Well I quit my SOE Pass over the SWG XP fiasco and now the new expansion that caters the game even MORE to Jedi. And thus I'm no longer in EQ2 either. I am glad, actually, that I quit. If nothing else I'll avoid the headaches of having to deal with yet another game full of whining people who haven't even tried the changes before complaining about them.
No offense folks: If you haven't tried the changes then keep yer yap shut and go try them before posting about them. All it does is make you look ignorant. What I saw on Test before I cancelled my AAP the changes looked ok. Some needed a bit more tweaking but overall *most* of the changes seemed to be pretty well thought out. Note: I do think there are a few boneheaded ones in there but I'm not gonna go into it since it's no longer my problem
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
while i still like the combat changes (i admit for the most part ive only been following paladin changes ... i love what i see there though. heck in the last update they gave me 3 entirely new skills) if SOE ever impliments open PVP (and i highly, HIGHLY doubt they will) i will quit the game, and i know a lot of other people who will leave with me.
Schutzbar - Human Warrior - Windrunner Alliance - World of Warcraft
Nihilanth - Kerra Paladin - Blackburrow - EverQuest II
XBL Gamertag - Eagle15GT
It's not about the "why", it's about the "what", as in the specifics of what they're doing. As for me being "too new", I've been playing online RPGs since the day they were TEXT, and played EQ to the present day. I'm far from "new" at any of these games. Played EQ2 in beta, played for a few months after release. Left. Came back because they were CHANGING things in a positive direction. Note that part. CHANGE is what brought me BACK. Because the changes that were made were of a positive, immersive direction.
What's being complained about is that the changes are all, to many of us who are playing on the test server and are EXPERIENCING the crap they're foisting off as an "upgrade", specifically NOT constructive nor do they increase the overall "fun" of the game. In many cases, they achieve exactly the OPPOSITE -- by drawing things out. I have no doubt that they're going to make it harder to progress, aka SLOWER -- but just reorienting things to slow people's progressions because they can't come up with a more inventive end-game (everyone getting to lvl 50 too fast? Need to slow that down, so we can put in a lvl 50-60 and not have it be "eaten up" too fast). here's a thought: let's figure out how to build an endgame that doesn't just require depowering everything and protracting all the experiences before that. Cause that's basically all they're doing. The solution is: slow the game down for everyone so they don't get to 50 as fast. When specific spells are being depowered by as much as 75% (from doing almost 500 points of damage to doing 75 points), it's a NERF. And it's not particularly inspired on their part. This isn't the DIFFICULT course to choose. The difficult course for them to choose would be to actually think and create a new aspect for the endgame.
Basically, it's not change we're arguing against -- change is what brought me back to the game several months ago. It's WHAT they're doing SPECIFICALLY, and how that's going to just turn the game into an endless, slow grind. Among other things, WoW is pulverizing SOE in subscriptions because WowW, while having even less of an endgame than EQ2 and ultimately being more boring, is more FUN on the way to becoming boring.
If Sony thinks the changes on the Test server are going to do anything to improve their subscription rate, they're deluding themselves. I'm a fan of the game, a fan of the direction they were heading for the past few months -- but what they're doing on the test server, in the name of this Combat Upgrade, is not a POSITIVE change for the overall game. Again, since people can't seem to read for themselves, let me repeat: I'm not saying don't do a combat upgrade, I'm arguing that the specifics of THIS combat upgrade, as on the TEST server, is not a POSITIVE change.
By the way, you might try arguing a point instead of resorting to childish "if you're too new to realise" garbage. Turning to that sort of personalization is just that: childish. And it doesn't help your argument at all, especially since you have NO IDEA how "new" I am or any of us are. Here's a clue: we MIGHT have a different perspective on the specifics of the changes and DISAGREE with you that those changes are positive or constructive. That disagreement in no way makes us "new" or any other stupid comments about someone's playing style you choose to make.
I dont' have to know how new you are. You sound like a 12 yr old, so you'll get treated like one.
First of all, it's NOT an upgrade, it's an adjustment down in power. Read the patch notes and get a clue. It's not about slowing progression (although that very well may be a slight side effect), it's about making the END GAME encounters equivalent in power/level to the high end players. It's about pushing a few high end encounters further up toward the end of a raid's abilities for DPS and healing. As a result, some encounters that were previously trivial at 50 are now no longer trivial, and it creates MORE for high end players to do. It essentially creates MORE places for end game players to go. They assumed at release that players would have X encounters at level 50 to gain experience and be challenged. They overshot player strength and now they're going to adjust it. It makes perfect sense whether you like it or not.
Progression is so easy already, I can't imagine that you'd complain that it gets a little harder. It will still be too easy. If you really think the game is that boring, then QUIT!!
If you don't think the current encounters in the game are fun or entertaining, then say so. Just don't pretend that a player damage/power adjustment to open up more encounters to level 50 players is supposed to be an "upgrade" when it's quite clearly NOT intended to be that, and then pretend that you're being disappointed by the "upgrade" because it's a downgrade. It's SUPPOSED to be a downgrade. It's NOT going to make everyone happy right away. It's a fix for a previous overadjustment to player abilities.
Don't be such a whiner.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain
I dont' have to know how new you are. You sound like a 12 yr old, so you'll get treated like one.
First of all, it's NOT an upgrade, it's an adjustment down in power. Read the patch notes and get a clue. It's not about slowing progression (although that very well may be a slight side effect), it's about making the END GAME encounters equivalent in power/level to the high end players. It's about pushing a few high end encounters further up toward the end of a raid's abilities for DPS and healing. As a result, some encounters that were previously trivial at 50 are now no longer trivial, and it creates MORE for high end players to do. It essentially creates MORE places for end game players to go. They assumed at release that players would have X encounters at level 50 to gain experience and be challenged. They overshot player strength and now they're going to adjust it. It makes perfect sense whether you like it or not.
Progression is so easy already, I can't imagine that you'd complain that it gets a little harder. It will still be too easy. If you really think the game is that boring, then QUIT!!
If you don't think the current encounters in the game are fun or entertaining, then say so. Just don't pretend that a player damage/power adjustment to open up more encounters to level 50 players is supposed to be an "upgrade" when it's quite clearly NOT intended to be that, and then pretend that you're being disappointed by the "upgrade" because it's a downgrade. It's SUPPOSED to be a downgrade. It's NOT going to make everyone happy right away. It's a fix for a previous overadjustment to player abilities.
Don't be such a whiner.
---- end of quote ----
Interestingly, I seem to have made an enemy by using SONY'S word -- "upgrade" -- which, at least according to this person, it isn't. And again, curiously, I would point out that it was SOE -- aka the makers of the game -- who called it that. So, evidently, according to Noubourne, we're "whiners" and being "childish" if we use the word for this upcoming change that SONY, the developers, use. Quick, folks, remember that Noubourne doesn't like our using words that offend him, especially if -- God forbid -- you use the phrase that the people who control and develop the game use. Shocking. Who would have thought that we'd call SOE's self-described "Combat Upgrade"... a "combat upgrade"??!! Amazing.
Secondly, nowhere in here is this a whine. Whining would be "ohmyGodthissux, cause etc etc" without arguing any actual points. You and I may disagree, but calling people childish or 12-yr-old doesn't (to repeat) make your argument stronger -- though it goes far in revealing your own mentality.
My point has been, throughout, that changes to the system should be made. And, that the changes being made (not all of them, but certainly the ones I've seen firsthand on the Test server (which, by the way, gives me FIRSTHAND experience to talk about this)) are NOT overall positive or constructive. I have argued for a revamp of what the genre considers the "endgame" -- both in this post and in others. An endgame strategy that actually involves something other than adjustments to the combat dynamic, for instance -- one that uses those last three letters in the MMORPG genre title.
"Childish" is making a point without supporting it. Arguing a point, providing alternative solutions, and refusing to be categorised by someone who can't seem to make a point without calling people names or insulting people solely because they DISAGREE with you is not "childish" or "12-yr".
You have an opinion, that much you've expressed (sort of). Though so far, all you've done is resort to name-calling and seem to be resolutely determined that your opinion and playstyle is the only allowable one. SURPRISE! Noubourne's playstyle and opinion ISN"T the only one in the world, and just because you happen to like what they're doing DOESN'T mean that those of us who love the game and want to see it improved happen to agree with YOUR definition of playstyle or improvements.
After trying SWG I cancelled my all access pass. The only thing that I regretted was leaving behind EQ II. Now it seems like I picked a good time to get out. I was pretty underwhelmed with SWG as it was, and the recent massive XP nerf is pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever heard of devs doing to one of these games.
More on topic, I read some dev posts on the EQ II boards indicating that the DPS of most classes would stay the same or be slightly boosted. I believed this, and thus felt a slight pang at leaving what I believe is currently one of the best MMORPGs on the market. There aren't too many games that offer the depth that EQ II does, and that are fun to play grouped or solo as pretty much any class you pick. But the latest word coming from the test server is that it was a complete lie. Most classes are in fact getting a huge DPS nerf, pretty much cutting the legs off of the solo game for them. Go SOE . . .
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I only have low lvl charcters on test (below 20) so i cannot comment much about the higher lvl parts of combatupgrade myself. But on the low lvl charcters soloing solo mobs did not feel much different.
I play a 50 paladin and a 46 warlock and a few lower lv characters and have been doing some raids (i'm in no hardcore raiding guidl but we raid twice a week and are currently doing Deception Raids so i know a bit about endgame), and I can definitely see why the combat changes are needed.
when you make a group that has same setup as a raid maintank group you can buff your tank to a lvl where he is practically unhittable from standard mobs.
Even groups with not totally perfect setup can trivialize a lot content, Just yesterday we had to fight down to nagafen because no group inviser was online. we had a 50 templar, a 50 mystic, a 47 warden, a 46 assasin and 2 lvl 50 paladins one of them was me and i was tanking. the only time when we got a bit into trouble was when we had 5 heroic encounters on us at the same time but even that did not cause a single death.
Also Splitpaw group arena is a good example why the changes are needed, you can do the very hard version without getting into any problems: if you are in a lvl 50 group the final boss is lvl 58 but you still don't get into any real problems (only encounter in ther that sometimes gets a bit interesting is if the 2nd mob (the warlock - spider) has devastation and decides to use it).
To make challenging group content for lvl 50 or near lvl 50 groups they had to rely on group x2 encounters like in Nekt 2 or Icy Digs.
Another thing is that some spells are way to overpowered: the unbreakable aoe root that Wizard and warlock get at lvl 40 make soloing heroics quite easy for them, the Conjurer tank pet seems to be overpowered too, Warrior classes stack too much HP with their selfbuffs (at least compared to other tank classes) so the others had no chances to tank some epic encounters that were tuned for guardians in perfect maintank groups, there are a lot other things that were overpowered too (warlock single target dps in early 40s is insane).
As said before i did not see the high lvl results of the changes myself, as i didn't get into beta and have no character over lvl 20 on test, but i read a bit on the forums and yes some classes get some hard hits. but to be true some of these hits are needed some tank classes were able to outdps most scouts and even some mage classes when they had right group, and sometimes even when soloing. And Correcting DPS classes up was not the way to go as then mobs would have needed a increases too...
I can understand the need for the changes and also expect a few nerfs to most classes but it is a critical thing to balance so i have to wait to see how it plays after the changes to be sure if the changes were done good or bad.
Am I on the SWG forums? Everywhere I look people refer to these changes as a "combat upgrade". In the server notes, and updates from the developers, however, they are always referred to as "changes" or "revamp". It seems the people who are most vocal about being disappointed are calling it (and perhaps expecting) an "Upgrade", where it is clearly not meant to be so.
Here's an excellent read for some of you, who may or may not play on the test server, and who probably do not do much reading of patch notes or dev explanations regardless of your "experience" on the test server:
June 2005 Producer's Letter
From that letter:
If you look at all the Test Server update notes, you'll see they are in fact called "Combat Changes", and not an upgrade. Only once are these new adjustments referred to as an "improvement", and shortly thereafter you'll find the above paragraph explaining that some combos/abilities are too powerful for what the originally expected to be part of the end game at level 50, making it trivial and limiting the options for end gamers.
You very well may not like what is going to happen, but stop pretending that you've been sold an "Upgrade" that has turned out to be a downgrade, when since before any of the changes hit test there has been ample information available to inform you that there were going to be downgrades in power. It's fine to have critiques of what is happening, but if you don't keep it in perspective with how difficult it makes the end game encounters (ie: if some are impossible now, that's too far), then your opinion is going to amount to nothing more than a whine, regardless of how much you've actually played with the new changes.
Valid Criticism: King Zalak is impossible with the new changes because scout damage has been nerfed beyond belief.
Invalid Criticism: MY SCOUT DOES ONLY 10% OF THE DAMAGE HE USED TO DO!!!!!
Valid Criticism: Mages should not be able to put out more damage than a Wizard in a fight under 2 minutes.
Invalid Criticism: ICE COMET IS NERFED BEYOND BELIEF OMG I SUCK NOW SCREW YOU SOE!11!!!1!
No amount of well-reasoned posts are going to count you among the mature and experienced players if you continue to ignore the bigger picture, and no amount of denial is going to give you a more informed perspective on the game. Reading comprehension is a start though. I suggest you take a time out and do some reading on the topic before you spout off about how much you hate playing with the changes. Not every patch was made to make you happy, you know.
If you really are that upset about it, I really do believe you should take some time off and come back in 6 months. Like I said before; you won't notice a thing when you come back, and the game will be better off in the long run with the new balance between PCs and the number of encounters that pose a challenge to them.
Habit is not to be flung out the window by any man, but coaxed down the stairs one step at a time. - Mark Twain