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[Brainstorm] New possible ways to level up
Odinthedark1
Member Posts: 330
Lol, based specifically on pve what other way could they present to us to level our character's besides quest's and monster grinding anyways. there prob are some ways but if there are it would take a lucky spark in the brain or a genius to find. crafting possibly but not likely, would get boring. pvp has been done alot recently and it works if they balance the exp gain properly, which even tho swtor kinda sucked they managed to do, but some people just dont like pvp. if you were to support an entire player base in which they all have different tastes it just would'nt work out as most times player preferences are contradicting. gw2 is overhyped and ppl make it seem like all they did was make a hardcore game but minus the grind for hardcore players...without leveling / very minimal gear grinding its kinda pointless for me anyway. so people brainstorm on new ways to level because taking the grind completely out is a no no for some gamer's like me.
I'm curious with what people can come up with to somewhat balance the game and make the grind to max not too hard, but at the same time not completely easy like WoW among other mmo's. Ive had a controller in my hand since the age of 4 and growing up never liked skipping to the last level, as its my perception of the world that everything earned through hard work makes the reward all the better in the end.
To clarify this isnt meant for any games currently out nor has anything to do with them, the point of this is to brainstorm new ideas which can provide possibly multiple ways to level, if you dont like leveling at all and never have this thread aint for you unless you actually wish to contribute brain cells to think of ways to level even if you yourself wouldnt enjoy it.
PS: 1. The point of this topic is to brainstorm idea's for leveling, and possibly progression but taking it completely out is not an option.
2. No flaming, hating, or namecalling please keep that strictly PM as to not flood out actual ideas. TY.
3. This thread is meant to appeal to all gamer's, but all ideas do not have to go into a single game as sometimes ideas can contradict player tastes in which would be pointless to the thread. Casual, Hardcore, CasualCore dont matter its strictly theories on possible way's to progress in game without nullifying the leveling system completely.
4.Opinions should be kept to yourselves as to not flood as well, unless they are referring to an idea brought up by another member then opinions on that idea should be discussed.
Comments
Something I've been experimenting with in WAC is characters paying in-game gold for training skills and then skills drive levels. It skips the re-grind for high level characters who want to level an alt. It allows a craftsman to level up any class without combat.
Kills, quests, crafting and farming become revenue generators. However, I'm not sold that it's a workable system.
I'd rather eliminate levels completely and just have skill training and gear drive stats for progression. Sort of like having the whole game parallel current endgame systems.
Except endgame only starts when you are level capped and non raid capped. So the whole thing can't be end game.
Why have leveling at all? Leveling is just a system that compensates for the lack of fun gameplay and fun areas.
Genius. Someone asks something and let's just talk about something else. You are so helpful.
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I am tired of leveling too! Let's just work to aquire things instead of "Oh I am level 12 now I can defeat this new set of enemies and these old ones no longer give me experience".
Why not just kill everything and some just have very little reward compared to others that perhaps give more. Im gonna stop myself before I rant lol.
Thats not true, its a valid system in most things in life. Are you simply born as an adult? do you simply go from being the bottom of the business hierarchy to a CEO? Could a peasant really ever become a king? what you stated is false and merely opinion. So back to topic please, even leveling can be fun if you present it in a way to be fun for each specific taste. but im curious what would make it fun for most.
One could argue you could remove leveling and add another form of progression. So yeah, genius to me, And his post does apply even though it doesn't elaborate very well.
I tried Fallen Earth and while; I didn't stay for the long haul; however, I did find it interesting that you could level up by crafting and gathering. (Or at least get quite a bit of exp from doing so)
And thats the dilemma with crafting exp, theyd have to create a whole new crafting system with multiple mini games to keep ur interest but at the same time the game cant simply rely on crafting alone as its meant to create gear for killing stuff lol. gotta have good combat as well as other things that are left to be brainstormed to keep ur interest in the long run.
The reason I didn't stick with Fallen Earth was because I read to much about the game. When I found out that you could mess up your character by putting points in the wrong stats I began reading everything I could.
I found out about the AP missions, then I found myself going through each starter town specifically looking to do the AP missions that I had read about in the guide.
Sometimes you just have to play a game and discover it for yourself. Because the fallen earth leveling and AP point system that, at the time was pretty unforgiving, I really messed up by reading to much instead of just playing the game.
and possibly progression but taking it completely out is not an option.
Grinders aren't hardcore players. They are casual players with a lot of time on their hands. GW2 is not made for these players as its main target audience, which I think is great. Games have been catering to the casual grinders for far, far too long.
Since we're just brainstorming, here's an idea. Design each "Zone" as a level. When that zone is completed (the boss or whatever defeated), you gain a level. Zones begin smaller for beginners, and grow in size as you get to higher levels, mimicing the normal time differences between levels.
There are in-zone benefits earned from monsters that can help you in that zone only, which can be grinded for to make the experience easier for casuals like you.
Players who are skilled are able to complete the content more quickly, and enjoy the game at a reasonable pace for the first time in MMORPG history.
You are both wrong and right i very much enjoy endgame content and can tend to take it seriously, i just tend to enjoy the grind too. but either way an interesting idea not sure if it would be any fun tho, sumthin you'd have to kinda experience first hand to tell. tho that would take one hell of a dev team to make a hugely vast amount of content or there'd only be like 5-10 levels. but something you need to understand and i stress this seriously just because you enjoy leveling doesnt mean you're casual, you're saying people who are hardcore have very little time on their hands? Lol grinding has nothing to do with end game content.
Edit: but as to stay on topic myself, this thread is to brainstorm idea's that could help appeal to EVERYONE. casual, hardcore, 12 year olds, 80 year olds, if your dog is skilled enough to hold a controller why not. so please keep insult's accusations either out of the thread or strictly in PM.
I like skill-based progression systems better. For those that arent familiar. You start your character with zero in lots of skills. Lets say you pick up an axe and chop and tree. Slowly your skill in Axe Skill goes up, keep chopping and you'll see your wood lore(for that type of wood) go up, then maybe your strength goes up. So basically you 'build' what type of character and class you want. If you want to be an archer obviously you will get better by shooting your bow.
You must have a skill point cap though or you will end up having to redo your game like darkfall did, because everyone will make a rangwarmage and master all crafts obliberating the economy.
So you basically solve the level problem and the class problem in one full swoop with skill-based progression.
Games that use skill point based progression are UO and many sandbox games thereafter to this day.
I feel it is the best. I would prefer though that skill point pools are separated by crafting skill points with a cap and ability skill points with a cap instead of one huge pool that makes you choose one or the other.
I disagree with the skill cap. (In fact I think that the current leveling system where you have an arbartrary stopping point needs to go) What skill based games need to do is make it increasingly harder to gain skill, but not have an arbitrary stopping point.
If you add in skill regression at a certain point where, if you don't really use a skill for a while you begin to lose points then it will make it much more dificult advance in all skills.
I think MMO's should get rid of level systems, by that I mean focus on the skills, too many MMO's focus on which level you are to determine whether you win in PVP etc... But thats another story I suppose.
The problem isn't quests, it's what were forced do in the quests that's the problem... I've never read what I'm supposed to do in a quest, I just click accept and look at the map to see where to go, there's to many talk to this person or kill this many of this monsters. MMO's need to change, the quests need to be more dynamic and not just a means to level up.
I wouldn't mind having more of an RPG experience with timing based puzzles, something to make me think and have to move my character to complete. Also things like public events, a game inside a game concept - CTF, king of the hill, something inside an arena that dosn't directly pertain to the game but gets the population together, compete against eachother, without negatives effects or chance of losing your items.
I can't think of a way to level up without some kind of a grind, the only thing I can think is to make the grind fun and worth playing, MMO's are stuck in a rut, giving me a million quests with the end goal to be the top level is just boring, yet no devlopers want to create something different for fear of failing.
Its not easy to come up with ideas to make it fun but i assure you there has to be some way. And i completely agree the quests are becoming dull but just because its hard to think of new genius idea's to level up doesnt mean dev's nor the players should completely give up on the leveling hierarchy. to play strictly for fun with no goal in mind reminds me of my old console gaming days of playing grand theft auto and just going on a rampage. ive played mmo's now for 7 years and im now 19 years old and have finally given up WoW after 4 years. i dont wish to see mmo's become just another variant of console gaming, skill or not leveling is what has always defined rpg games for me whether it be Final Fantasy in the old days, or mmorpg's in more recent times. leveling has always given me a set goal to tell me when to move on to PvP or to grind gear for the next raid, but the end game itself has been stale as well lately, without new innovative ways to level i dont see myself taking the time to even make it to end game anymore. So dont give up on it i sincerely hope i can see some genius ideas on this thread, cause more than likely my best friend can make it a reality in the next decade to come.
The word grind is used as a way to call something both laborious and not very interesting. I think one thing that would suit that definition nicely is to maybe make a highly educational way to progress in level. Maybe have exams in math, history, english, and science that give you experience depending on the grade you score. Oh and also make it so you can't use other programs while taking those exams. This way you'll have to study to get to higher levels.
I disagree with the skill cap. (In fact I think that the current leveling system where you have an arbartrary stopping point needs to go) What skill based games need to do is make it increasingly harder to gain skill, but not have an arbitrary stopping point.
If you add in skill regression at a certain point where, if you don't really use a skill for a while you begin to lose points then it will make it much more dificult advance in all skills.
Regression would work also, just something that doesn't allow everyone to be maxed in every skill in the end so there is forced specialty.League of Legends | Guild Wars 2
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That system sounds great in theory but it gets seriously abused in reality. Macro hitting a wall for days and voila, max skill.
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The only real problem with a dog tag sysem for me, is that there used to be a lot of that kind of thing in WoW back when there was far more of a rep grind than there is now. You would kill creatures and they would occasionally drop a rep item, you would then go back and turn it in.
This isn't such a bad Idea. Probaby done on a smaller scale in other games. The Devs would have to actively balance thing out making sure one side didn't have more members (and thus be able to gather more dog tags) than the other.
Here is what I would like to see tried.
First, no levels or just levels for he sake of weighing relative power ie cons.
Overall, skill based topped with talents, where many skill and talents need to be earned with quests and more.. explanations and examples to follow. This is levelling, just not in the traditional sense, but building up skills and various ways is actually a kind of levelling, you just need to think outside the standard box.
Skills/spells/etc have relative power, and you choose how much mana or focus you want to put into something.. focusing all your might into a swing may hit very hard but it can also leave you vulnerable or exhausted.
No more ding 20 now I can suddenly cast fireball, you must train with a teacher (npc or player), and then level up your fireball skill by using it.. that was the simple example which is nothing revolutionary, but how about if the trainer wants something in return before teaching you, or the trainer beeing in an unaccessible place you need to get access to, or there is only the [insert race] trainer who can teach you the paralyzing but unfortunately you have to earn the trust of his people (race). Main point is, you have to adventure, travel, explore, quest, etc to improve your characters abilities, which will give you the thing that is missing from mmorpgs these days, the feeling of accomplishment.
Talents amplifies skills and spells as is the standard (if it aint broke..), but again most talents are not handed.
Lets take a sword for example. There willl be a general sword skill, a specific 1h shortsword skill, and furthermore affinity with the very specific sword that you have (not any bastard sword, but yours specifically). All these skills needs to be worked up by use, in the end powering up and determine what moves are available .. riposte, feign, block, chop, you name it. The affinity with a specific weapon is a kind of soft-soulbinding, where you can actually sell a sword to someone, but that someone would have to work up his affinity with that specific weapon. To avoid the buildup of massive amounts of gear in the game, another important aspect is added, randomization probably something like diablo2 has where a weapon has a quality and offcourse a "perfect" one would be very rare - Randomization also gives a much ignored excitement factor that all new mmorpgs are missing... goes without saying, no f.. point systems to buy gear with, you are an adventurer go out and seek that treasure (oi sorry got carried away).
The overall key is also that you play a character and your goal is to improve that character directly by your actions, nothing gets handed to you .. and by that I dont mean you should not be guided by the npc, but rather that to improve you need to put in efford.. no arms, no cookies. I know many are against this notion of earning your way, but as long as the challange is reasonable, I promise even the laziest instant gratification person will bite on the hook after the first thrills from achieving something.. easy come easy goes, while efford makes you connect to your char and that is the first step to loving a game and wanting to interact with others.
It is fully OK that players who put more efford in, will have access to zones, gear, skills and so on that others dont, this is a dynamic effect that makes newer players want to improve (carrot effect) - This "just" has to be carefully designed, so you dont end up with the 10% gets 90% which is obviously a bad idea for a game economically and otherwise. These values are old, but the ideas are new.. could be a win win. In my head this works, but offcourse details may cause failure, the important thing is to stay true to the basics = excitement from randomness, feeling of accomplishment and connection with your character and therby the game.
ps. Offcourse no classes, roles are determined by your talents, skills etc. As for gear, a "wizard" can wear plate if he chooses, however that will seriously affect his casting abilities.. like no electricity, high risk of burning oneself with fireballs, less connection to the spirit world (shaman role) and so on.. also some kind of mutually exclusive stuff like, you cant be a holy knight with an undead army.
Also the main philosphy behind all of this is, that the journey is the game, if you want to skip to the end you are missing the point on playing mmorpgs.
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After 12+ years I have yet to see an MMO try to replicate Asherons Call style of leveling.
First off AC has 275 levels, takes on average a few years to level all the way up (not counting the new fast leveling speed introduced in 2010 so bear with me on this) but end game, if you want to use that term, starts around level 90 so most quests and most content can be seen starting around level 70 because after that power to level ratio plateaus out rather drastically. Leveling after level 70 is mostly for minor stat gains or token skill points.
Anyway, the core of leveling is in Asherons Call is based on an exponential curve and every stat and skill increase is raised via experience points earned. An example is say a level 50 character has 170 strength and 210 Axe skill (just an example of a stat skill and a primary skill that uses that stat to level, i.e. Axe skill is derived by Strength + Coordination divided by 2) It costs 90,000 XP to raise strength and 140,000 XP to raise Axe 1 point (all stats and skills are increased through experience earned like killing a monster might give you 1000 XP, you can then use every bit of that XP to turn it into stats or skills) In this example it will be cheaper to actually raise Axe because it costs 140k and it would take 90k + what ever the next point of Strength (based on an exponential curve so it might be something like 95,000 XP to get to 172 Strength). In this scenario it would be 140k to raise Axe directly, or 90k+95k (185k) to raise Axe indirectly......but heres a Caveat to this scenario Axe gets its Damage modifier from Strength (In AC all skills gets its Damage Mod based on a Stat but the to-Hit is based on the skill) so you may have to do some min/max to figure out if it would actually behoove you to raise Axe or Strength. So the jist of this system is as follows: Are you having a harder time hitting monsters you're fighting then you raise the skill, if your to-hit is managable then you might raise your Strength twice for more damage done.
WOW that was a mouthful but I hope my point came across as clear as possible and you can recognize why I love the Asherons Call system more then any other levelign system on the market.
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About questing. Questing in itself is the core of a mmorpg, it is just some games (you know which) have trivialized it so much that the reasons has been lost, why bother when it is obviously just a timezink and not an adventure. To make questing interesting again, mechanisms that make it interested should be re-inroduced, challange and worthwhile rewards and more come to mind.
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