Interesting how this will be my first post on the forums.
Originally posted by Zookz1
I don't totally disagree with you, but I will never again play a game where I have to look for a party or attempt to put one together for an entire play session (several hours) and have it end with me never getting anything accomplished. In XI and XIV, I have actually spent a week without a PT leaving me to solo for a miserable amount of XP.
FFXI needed Abyssea because it's extremely top heavy after being around for a decade. FFXIV is already extremely top heavy a year after release. How are they going to adopt a slower and steadier approach to progression at this point? It would ruin the game for newer players.
Funny that.
Firstly, anyone was able to solo long before abyssea came out. There was this thing called Fields of Valor, which literally made every job soloable.
Secondly, anyone can solo in FFXIV and quite easy too. Hell even during Surplus, it was easy to solo for EXP - I could've easily gotten my first class to 50 when Surplus was around. I've not even bothered taking my last 3 remaining classes to 50 because I'm forced to space myself rather than getting on all the time to play, all because again, leveling is shit easy.
There really is nothing tedious about leveling in FFXIV, it's too damn easy. And now in FFXI, we're pigeon-holed into doing everything the easy way - SE has taking out every opportunity to do anything the hard way.
Originally posted by Zookz1
FFXIV needs a more modern approach than what they currently have. The franchise as a whole, including XI, place emphasis on story. It seems silly that the main method of progression is to sit in one spot and grind monsters from 30-50.
This is also funny since casual players were just as likely to abuse the game's mechanics so they could just stand in the same spot and EXP until done (Level Sync and Power Leveling), both in FFXI and FFXIV.
Originally posted by Zookz1
Shouldn't we be discovering things about the world and the inhabitants? Shouldn't I learn about the native creatures and the lands? The main storyline is laughably short and excessively boring in terms of gameplay. I know it's an extremely unpopular opinon amongst FFXI/XIV players, but I want to see a more quest driven (read: story driven) approach to progression, but the mere mention of having quested progressions sends the community into a seething rage.
No one in the FFXI/V community has ever been more against story-based progression than the thousands of casuals that cried wanting CoP to get nerfed. For the most part, players like myself are the ones that would love nothing less than to see RoZ/CoP/ToAU-style expansion packs in FFXIV with level caps making a return along with limit breaks per every 5 levels.
Originally posted by Zookz1
Maybe people want an "oldschool" experience with XIV, but I have serious doubts as to whether that is something SE is willing to deliver. They already had/have that game in XI.
There no longer is a FFXI in reality, because as I said - they've pigeonholed everyone in FFXI into doing everything the easy way.
Originally posted by skydiver12 So? I still don't see how power leveling or the level speed due to power leveling is the issue. Actually you level way to slow solo without spoiled gear or overpowered builds due to your other classes already being lvl50.
Solo 1-50 in a week is too slow for you? Uh... okay.
Originally posted by skydiver12 The real issue is, the leveling is horrid tedious and to group up, you wait to long, because grouping up just like that, most likely ends up PUNISHING one part of the group. (XP/Hour ratio)
No, partying doesn't punish anyone by itself.
Originally posted by skydiver12 Just look at the lack of resurrect on spot skills. It's punishing you and even the "fool" who dies. There is a mob, you need two people to kill it. The other guy just died, now sit and wait for him to run back AND regen.
Well anyone that doesn't level all their classes to 20 to begin with is already an idiot that's not worth my personal time.
Originally posted by skydiver12 The lack of rezing him (or he himself) does not make killing that fat Dodo "hard" or more "challenging". It makes it tedious. Result: You don't want to group up with people just like that.
It's not tedious by a long shot, even though it's not hard either. Simply put, if you can't come prepared - you do deserve whatever you get.
Originally posted by skydiver12 There is no room for failure and every failure of someone else is punishing YOU severely.
There's too much room for failure. I screwed around in my BLM's exp parties the last couple weeks, and nothing was even remotely slowed down.
Originally posted by skydiver12 It's not just about resurrecting dead party members or time limits for missions who discourage experimenting (because when you die 2 times you lack the time to finish it loosing ANY progress).
Also false. Every "battlefield" in FFXIV is easily accessable.
Originally posted by skydiver12 This game does not reward risks, and severely punishes failed attempted risks. And it does so with the most punishment possible, a players active gaming time.
It's not the game's place to reward risks (only to reward what is), and there are no severe punishments in the first place. But hey, you seem to sound like someone that thinks everyone should get a reward when they fail at something.
Originally posted by skydiver12 And then the random never fitting difficult of content. Sitting debuffs out 5 minutes makes you wonder why the hell even bother with rank 5 solo (or attempt undermanned) quests? Make the quest 2 stars and have a complete snoozefest, for you can't fail at all? 'URGH
Guildleves are for solo/duo/trio and if it being 2-stars makes it a complete snoozefest, well you should increase the star rank.
Originally posted by skydiver12 There is never a sweetspot in difficult, you either zerg it, or snooze, or get one shotted. All is a chore.
There is nothing difficult about FFXIV.
Originally posted by skydiver12 A good gaming experience: A huge field filled with monsters: Solo level with some challenge, kill a monster one at a time. Duo for the more dangerous monsters roaming the field. or faster kill the easier one's ONE at a TIME. Group up to gather monsters, kill multiple monster at once, maybe even AOE train. Some key member like healer / buffer or Tank leave, you continue to kill slower or not so many at once till replacements arrive
Already in FFXIV.
Originally posted by skydiver12 FFXIV: Does not make it more challenging due to amount of enemies you COULD kill, it only scales with raw damage / hp of each monster. Which means you need constant healing or a tank to take the beating in a group. If you lacking one, sit and wait. You still fight one monster at a time. Now this isn't bad in itself, but it's the only way and requires the holy Trinity. Result: it takes long to build "the perfect" group. They need to run long to be worth the time.
Unless they get that sorted, XIV will not thrive as a group centric mmo, nor solo. Currently it fails at both. As other's have said among many other core issues, leveling speed is not the issue, as it is the size of a DODO.
Any class in FFXIV can solo anything up to mobs 3~4 levels higher than themselves. Do the math.
Well anyone that doesn't level all their classes to 20 to begin with is already an idiot that's not worth my personal time.
Like all your comments who missed either the mark or are wrong, this shows the real issue of your argument. You kinda kneejerked yourself here. White knight for SE syndrome?
FFXIV wanted to have a free class design with more width than high, they failed as i wrote. By even writing that you expect anyone "worth your time" you already supported my argument. The class system is a failure.
Like all your comments who missed either the mark or are wrong, this shows the real issue of your argument. You kinda kneejerked yourself here. White knight for SE syndrome?
FFXIV wanted to have a free class design with more width than high, they failed as i wrote. By even writing that you expect anyone "worth your time" you already supported my argument. The class system is a failure.
Thanks.
Funny you say that, I would almost take it you believed Tanaka's every word when he was producer when it came to his vision of FFXIV and have almost no knowledge about Yoshida being the new producer and how Yoshi has decided to change the game for a different style.
What FFXIV wanted and what it wants now are two different things - but not all that disconnected. You claim I miss the point, but this is the fact of the matter: it's so easy to come prepared in FFXIV (just like it was in FFXI). 1~20? That's only a day's worth at most (again, not even talking about PL here). The class/job system has not failed because it still requires a simple amount of preparation that anyone and their grandma can access.
There is a lot wrong with the class system, just as there is with the whole game. But to think you hit it on the mark is laughable at best (not to mention how off-topic you've been, since this thread is about the leveling experience).
Funny you say that, I would almost take it you believed Tanaka's every word when he was producer when it came to his vision of FFXIV and have almost no knowledge about Yoshida being the new producer and how Yoshi has decided to change the game for a different style.
What FFXIV wanted and what it wants now are two different things - but not all that disconnected. You claim I miss the point, but this is the fact of the matter: it's so easy to come prepared in FFXIV (just like it was in FFXI). 1~20? That's only a day's worth at most (again, not even talking about PL here). The class/job system has not failed because it still requires a simple amount of preparation that anyone and their grandma can access.
There is a lot wrong with the class system, just as there is with the whole game. But to think you hit it on the mark is laughable at best (not to mention how off-topic you've been, since this thread is about the leveling experience).
I wonder if you could take a step back and read your statement there, as well as the previous "worth my time" statement, and realize how incredibly self-centered you come across.
Are we to take away from your statements that, in your mind, everyone else in the game exists only to serve and appease you, and if they don't, then they're useless?
Who are you to impose obligations and expectations on other players? What status do you have in the game world that you get to dictate to people what classes they should level? Who are you that others should have to partake in activities that they may not be interested to, so they're "worth your time"? You seem awfully high on yourself based on your remarks.
Here's a counter question, why do you need people to have all those classes leveled? Do you not know the game well enough to know how to work with the skills that someone brings if they're specialized/focused on one playstyle or another? A good player who really knows the game (ie. doesn't rely on others filling specific roles or playing a specific way in order to succeed) and understands class strengths and weaknesses can take a group and make it work by utilizing eveyrone to their strengths and building a strategy around that. Those who stand around saying "Learn to play" are usually the ones who should be taking their own advice, instead of relying on cookie-cutter builds and walkthroughs.
If you can't function in a party with others who "don't meet your requirements", because you need them to play a specific way, then perhaps it's you who isn't worth their time.
If someone has zero interest in playing a given class, for whatever reason, that's their right. It's incredibly condescending and arrogant for you to sit/stand there and look down your nose at them because they're not playing the game the way you believe they should. Sadly, there are many people like you out there, forever dictating how others are "supposed to play", in order to suit you. As though their time or personal gameplay experience is inferior to or less valuable than yours.
I ran into people so many times in FFXI with your attitude, telling people how to play, talking down to those who didn't. I had a good laugh at those people standing around complaining that no one knew how to play the game (ie. didn't follow the guides or templates they relied on people using) while people who "didn't know how to play" were out progressing and having fun. Were we on the same server and I had such an encounter with you personally, I'm sure I'd be having the same laugh.
I never leveled Ninja in XI, for example. I was ridiculed like you wouldn't believe. "Ninja is mandatory!" I was told. "Not it isn't" I replied. In the end, I was right. Ninja was mandatory to those people because they didn't know how to function without one, particularly the more primadona White Mages who thought playing their job at its peak meant sitting on their ass, watching Anime and only begrudgingly getting up once in a while to, heaven forbid, cast a Cure spell.
I wonder if you could take a step back and read your statement there, as well as the previous "worth my time" statement, and realize how incredibly self-centered you come across.
Well I'm paying for my gametime just like anyone else. If you don't like what I ask, I didn't ask you to play with me.
Are we to take away from your statements that, in your mind, everyone else in the game exists only to serve and appease you, and if they don't, then they're useless?
Just like in the real world: you don't have to associate with me. Yes, people are useless when they're too lazy to be willing to level multiple classes. It's not about elitism, it's about variety and being helpful to me. People that can't be bothered to play different styles aren't worth it to me. Period.
Who are you to impose obligations and expectations on other players? What status do you have in the game world that you get to dictate to people what classes they should level? Who are you that others should have to partake in activities that they may not be interested to, so they're "worth your time"? You seem awfully high on yourself based on your remarks.
I'm not forcing anyone to associate with me.
Here's a counter question, why do you need people to have all those classes leveled? Do you not know the game well enough to know how to work with the skills that someone brings if they're specialized/focused on one playstyle or another? A good player who really knows the game (ie. doesn't rely on others filling specific roles or playing a specific way in order to succeed) and understands class strengths and weaknesses can take a group and make it work by utilizing eveyrone to their strengths and building a strategy around that. Those who stand around saying "Learn to play" are usually the ones who should be taking their own advice, instead of relying on cookie-cutter builds and walkthroughs.
I'm not interested in cookie-cutter builds nor walkthroughs, but I am interested in variety. In FFXI, I was the one that kicked bards out of my parties just to get a DRGburn going.
If you can't function in a party with others who "don't meet your requirements", because you need them to play a specific way, then perhaps it's you who isn't worth their time.
If you can't get over the idea that your playstyle effects other people in a party, then perhaps you should stick to single-player video games.
If someone has zero interest in playing a given class, for whatever reason, that's their right. It's incredibly condescending and arrogant for you to sit/stand there and look down your nose at them because they're not playing the game the way you believe they should. Sadly, there are many people like you out there, forever dictating how others are "supposed to play", in order to suit you. As though their time or personal gameplay experience is inferior to or less valuable than yours.
It's also their right not to associate with me, just as it is my right to require certain playstyles when you decide to play with me or be in my guild/linkshell.
I ran into people so many times in FFXI with your attitude, telling people how to play, talking down to those who didn't. I had a good laugh at those people standing around complaining that no one knew how to play the game (ie. didn't follow the guides or templates they relied on people using) while people who "didn't know how to play" were out progressing and having fun. Were we on the same server and I had such an encounter with you personally, I'm sure I'd be having the same laugh. I never leveled Ninja in XI, for example. I was ridiculed like you wouldn't believe. "Ninja is mandatory!" I was told. "Not it isn't" I replied. In the end, I was right. Ninja was mandatory to those people because they didn't know how to function without one, particularly the more primadona White Mages who thought playing their job at its peak meant sitting on their ass, watching Anime and only begrudgingly getting up once in a while to, heaven forbid, cast a Cure spell.
Yeah, they were wrong saying /nin was mandatory. But so are you for insisting on not leveling it when it'd benefit the group overall. I leveled RDM, WHM, and NIN all to 75 not because I had fun with them, but because at the end of the day I wanted to benefit those I played with, and I'll be damned if I let anyone playing with me not give me the same respect in turn.
Of course you won't get it. I may be selfish, but I'm also rational and at the end of the day I expect the same of other people.
Yeah, they were wrong saying /nin was mandatory. But so are you for insisting on not leveling it when it'd benefit the group overall. I leveled RDM, WHM, and NIN all to 75 not because I had fun with them, but because at the end of the day I wanted to benefit those I played with, and I'll be damned if I let anyone playing with me not give me the same respect in turn.
Of course you won't get it. I may be selfish, but I'm also rational and at the end of the day I expect the same of other people.
I was starting to respond to you point-for-point, but then realized your entire response basically indicates the same three things:
1) You are shamelessly self-centered and openly condescending to those who don't fit neatly into your little "must have" box. That you regard those who haven't leveled the jobs you expect them to as being "lazy" or "inflexible" speaks volumes of your overall attitude. It's all about you, and you look down on anyone who doesn't meet your standards.
Let's turn the issue around for a moment, though, and talk about your inflexibility. That street goes both ways. Why are you unwilling, or perhaps incapable of saying "Okay, well there's this person in my group whose setup isn't what I'd prefer, but we can still make it work just fine with them"? Why are you so inflexible?
Is it that you're simply that stubborn and self-centered? Is it that, like so many others who display a similarly inflexible and condescending attitude, you need people to play a specific way in order to succeed? Is your knowledge of the game lacking to the degree that you can't operate outside specific parameters that you use as a crutch?
2) You use the whole "you don't have to play with me if you don't like it" response as a convenient "out" to forgive yourself the self-centeredness you demonstrate in the rest of your remarks. But that's really not the point, is it? People can choose not to play with someone for any number of reasons.
What I'm getting at here is more about your attitude. Why you feel you have the authority to look down on and speak so condescendingly of people who don't play the way you expect them to? What places you above other players to the degree that you get to dictate how they're supposed to play?
3)To answer two statements directly:
"Yeah, they were wrong saying /nin was mandatory. But so are you for insisting on not leveling it when it'd benefit the group overall"
You're trying to play both sides of the coin here; trying to have it both ways. But then I have a feeling your second statement is the one you are most in agreement with, as it echoes your overall attitude. No, I'm not wrong for not leveling NIN. I didn't level NIN because I don't enjoy the job. On the other hand, I would get into various parties regardless and would prove, time and again, that without NIN I was doing just fine, thus rendering their concerns moot.
I find it funny, and very revealing of your attitude (yet again) that you are quick to point out that you're paying a subscription fee as a way to justify the way you prefer to pay. But yet don't extend that same courtesy to others. I guess you feel your subscription fee earns you the right to dictate how others spend theirs, eh?
This leads me to one of the main issues, something I've touched on. Most people who say "you need to have this job leveled" couldn't tell you why. They don't even know why. They're just parroting what they've heard elsewhere, or what they read in some wiki guide. One of the most perplexing questions you can ask someone who tries to tell you "you need x Job, or you're playing it wrong" is "Why?". Tell them to explain to you, in detail, the reasons. I'd say 8 out of 10 times I asked that question, I got either a BS answer ("everyone knows that" or "the wiki guides say you should", etc), or no answer at all. The remainder of the time, the answers were 100% situational and applied only in specific scenarios, although they would argue it as a "catch-all" that applied all the time, further demonstrating their ignorance.
I've also found that the people who are most demading of specific job setups or party configurations are the first to tell others "learn to play". Ironically, it's they who need to learn to play because their entire "knowledge" of the game is based on specific cookie-cutter builds and walkthrough guides. Switch up or remove one aspect of either, and they fall apart. They can't function. And then they go into "Learn to play!" mode and start lashing out and talking down to those who threw them the curve ball they couldn't catch. Kinda like what you demonstrate in your remarks.
I know plenty of people in my time playing XI (and other games) who have proven - through actual real first-hand knowledge of the game - that any given activity can be completed with a wide variety of setups. It's all about knowing and understanding the game mechanics and job roles and then being able to devise a strategy around that. And no, those alternate setups weren't "gimped" and they didn't "struggle through it" because their setup wasn't "optimal". They performed just fine because the person who assembled them actually understood the game mechanics well enough to make it work.
The idea of "the optimal" anything in terms of a game that offers so much flexibility is an illusion. It's really saying "this is the best and most efficient setup we know of, so it's the one we use". There usually is, and often has been, much better setups than what is considered "optimal". But people do tend to take the path of least resistance, and prefer to follow than lead, don't they. "Most Optimal" is really just saying "most familiar and comfortable to use".
So, in a nutshell, what I'm getting at is this: When someone, like yourself, is so inflexible and so demanding of people to play the way they expect them to, and are as condescending to those who don't as you've demonstrated yourself to be, what I see is someone who can't function unless people are able to play exactly the way you need them to. It's not about them not being flexible or what not. It's about you not knowing the game well enough to function outside your "safe zone" without your crutches to rely on.
Of course you won't get it. I may be selfish, but I'm also rational and at the end of the day I expect the same of other people.
Don't speak for me. I get it just fine. Your attitude is anything but rational. Expecting others to play the way you want them to and referring to them as "lazy" and "inflexible" if they don't is not rational. It's condescending, self-serving and unjustifiably arrogant.
Since now all you're doing is character assassination, I'll only address one thing as I've won this.
This leads me to one of the main issues, something I've touched on. Most people who say "you need to have this job leveled" couldn't tell you why. They don't even know why. They're just parroting what they've heard elsewhere, or what they read in some wiki guide. One of the most perplexing questions you can ask someone who tries to tell you "you need x Job, or you're playing it wrong" is "Why?". Tell them to explain to you, in detail, the reasons. I'd say 8 out of 10 times I asked that question, I got either a BS answer ("everyone knows that" or "the wiki guides say you should", etc), or no answer at all. The remainder of the time, the answers were 100% situational and applied only in specific scenarios, although they would argue it as a "catch-all" that applied all the time, further demonstrating their ignorance.
I can tell you why for every single job that I expect others to have leveled in FFXI as DRG, and I'll even tell you why NIN is expected to be leveled for other jobs.
1. Samurai - Without it you cannot obtain a 6-hit setup; without it there is no Meditate, meaning even less TP. Achieving 6-hit with Meditate has proven to be the single most beneficial DPS tactic for DRG, and that's not even talking about Hasso which provides a benefit to Attack Speed, Accuracy, and Strength.
2. Warrior - Gives burst damage for 3 out of every 5 minutes through Berserk which is extremely useful against Kirin and most other tank&spank endgame fights.
3. White Mage / Blue Mage - Not just for soloability, but a decent Dragoon/Mage can heal an entire party better than any Dancer, White Mage, or Red Mage. An excellent Drg/Mage can do it at most endgame events, meaning less healers and more DPS without sacrificing that much DPS from the Dragoon.
Now here is the why for NIN for most classes: because no matter what group you're in, the healer is always the most important person to pay attention to and to keep from getting stressed, and /nin relieves their stress because even an average /nin knows how to use Utsusemi properly, and also has Sneak/Invisible waiting.
Now me, when I healed, it depended on whether I was going RDM or WHM, to what event, and whether I had other forms of Refresh whether or not my team members went /nin, /sam, or /war. I much preferred my DPS going /sam or /war because when it came down to it, higher-DPS meant faster kills; but whenever I went a healer with a DRG and I saw them going /nin, the first thing I actually did, and I even had a reputation for it on Fairy & Diabolos, was tell them to go /sam, /war, or /mage, or else I won't heal them.
But going back to your character assassinations... well let's see, I had 75DRG, 75WHM, 75RDM, 75DRK, 75NIN, 75DNC, and was working on THF, BLU, PLD, BST, and everything else was at least 37 (well except BLM, it was infamously 33). Yet YOU still claim I'm inflexible, because I expect certain things out of my team members.
Let's reverse all of this. Why do you feel the need to assassinate someone's character when all they've given has been their honest opinion?
I haven't played FFXIV yet, but my experience post-Abyssea in FFXI made me quit the game -- when leveling means falling asleep at your computer while you press the same macro over and over, even if it's amazing experience points, is a terrible system. As another poster said, once you're at max merits, you have nothing to work towards except do the same thing on another job, which is not interesting gameplay for a once-interesting game. I remember having to try to set up skillchains and magic bursts to get good experience. It was a bit slow, but I made amazing friends and actually had fun during those parties.
Slow XP is only bad if it's awful, like taking a week to gain one level. I think FFXI pre-ToAU had a good pace, the only problem was that it depended on parties and people got frustrated at hours and hours with their LFP flag up. So basically in FFXIV I'd like to see a system that rewards players for playing together (so we can have fun!) but gives us something to do while we wait for a party, or if we only have an hour to play. Which is why I like the leve system in theory -- something you can do by yourself to not waste time, but it should NOT be, in my opinion, equal to or better than partying.
I'm interested to see how parties of 8 instead of 6 work, though.
Comments
Interesting how this will be my first post on the forums.
Funny that.
Firstly, anyone was able to solo long before abyssea came out. There was this thing called Fields of Valor, which literally made every job soloable.
Secondly, anyone can solo in FFXIV and quite easy too. Hell even during Surplus, it was easy to solo for EXP - I could've easily gotten my first class to 50 when Surplus was around. I've not even bothered taking my last 3 remaining classes to 50 because I'm forced to space myself rather than getting on all the time to play, all because again, leveling is shit easy.
There really is nothing tedious about leveling in FFXIV, it's too damn easy. And now in FFXI, we're pigeon-holed into doing everything the easy way - SE has taking out every opportunity to do anything the hard way.
This is also funny since casual players were just as likely to abuse the game's mechanics so they could just stand in the same spot and EXP until done (Level Sync and Power Leveling), both in FFXI and FFXIV.
No one in the FFXI/V community has ever been more against story-based progression than the thousands of casuals that cried wanting CoP to get nerfed. For the most part, players like myself are the ones that would love nothing less than to see RoZ/CoP/ToAU-style expansion packs in FFXIV with level caps making a return along with limit breaks per every 5 levels.
There no longer is a FFXI in reality, because as I said - they've pigeonholed everyone in FFXI into doing everything the easy way.
Solo 1-50 in a week is too slow for you? Uh... okay.
No, partying doesn't punish anyone by itself.
Well anyone that doesn't level all their classes to 20 to begin with is already an idiot that's not worth my personal time.
It's not tedious by a long shot, even though it's not hard either. Simply put, if you can't come prepared - you do deserve whatever you get.
There's too much room for failure. I screwed around in my BLM's exp parties the last couple weeks, and nothing was even remotely slowed down.
Also false. Every "battlefield" in FFXIV is easily accessable.
It's not the game's place to reward risks (only to reward what is), and there are no severe punishments in the first place. But hey, you seem to sound like someone that thinks everyone should get a reward when they fail at something.
Guildleves are for solo/duo/trio and if it being 2-stars makes it a complete snoozefest, well you should increase the star rank.
There is nothing difficult about FFXIV.
Already in FFXIV.
Any class in FFXIV can solo anything up to mobs 3~4 levels higher than themselves. Do the math.
Like all your comments who missed either the mark or are wrong, this shows the real issue of your argument. You kinda kneejerked yourself here. White knight for SE syndrome?
FFXIV wanted to have a free class design with more width than high, they failed as i wrote. By even writing that you expect anyone "worth your time" you already supported my argument. The class system is a failure.
Thanks.
Funny you say that, I would almost take it you believed Tanaka's every word when he was producer when it came to his vision of FFXIV and have almost no knowledge about Yoshida being the new producer and how Yoshi has decided to change the game for a different style.
What FFXIV wanted and what it wants now are two different things - but not all that disconnected. You claim I miss the point, but this is the fact of the matter: it's so easy to come prepared in FFXIV (just like it was in FFXI). 1~20? That's only a day's worth at most (again, not even talking about PL here). The class/job system has not failed because it still requires a simple amount of preparation that anyone and their grandma can access.
There is a lot wrong with the class system, just as there is with the whole game. But to think you hit it on the mark is laughable at best (not to mention how off-topic you've been, since this thread is about the leveling experience).
I wonder if you could take a step back and read your statement there, as well as the previous "worth my time" statement, and realize how incredibly self-centered you come across.
Are we to take away from your statements that, in your mind, everyone else in the game exists only to serve and appease you, and if they don't, then they're useless?
Who are you to impose obligations and expectations on other players? What status do you have in the game world that you get to dictate to people what classes they should level? Who are you that others should have to partake in activities that they may not be interested to, so they're "worth your time"? You seem awfully high on yourself based on your remarks.
Here's a counter question, why do you need people to have all those classes leveled? Do you not know the game well enough to know how to work with the skills that someone brings if they're specialized/focused on one playstyle or another? A good player who really knows the game (ie. doesn't rely on others filling specific roles or playing a specific way in order to succeed) and understands class strengths and weaknesses can take a group and make it work by utilizing eveyrone to their strengths and building a strategy around that. Those who stand around saying "Learn to play" are usually the ones who should be taking their own advice, instead of relying on cookie-cutter builds and walkthroughs.
If you can't function in a party with others who "don't meet your requirements", because you need them to play a specific way, then perhaps it's you who isn't worth their time.
If someone has zero interest in playing a given class, for whatever reason, that's their right. It's incredibly condescending and arrogant for you to sit/stand there and look down your nose at them because they're not playing the game the way you believe they should. Sadly, there are many people like you out there, forever dictating how others are "supposed to play", in order to suit you. As though their time or personal gameplay experience is inferior to or less valuable than yours.
I ran into people so many times in FFXI with your attitude, telling people how to play, talking down to those who didn't. I had a good laugh at those people standing around complaining that no one knew how to play the game (ie. didn't follow the guides or templates they relied on people using) while people who "didn't know how to play" were out progressing and having fun. Were we on the same server and I had such an encounter with you personally, I'm sure I'd be having the same laugh.
I never leveled Ninja in XI, for example. I was ridiculed like you wouldn't believe. "Ninja is mandatory!" I was told. "Not it isn't" I replied. In the end, I was right. Ninja was mandatory to those people because they didn't know how to function without one, particularly the more primadona White Mages who thought playing their job at its peak meant sitting on their ass, watching Anime and only begrudgingly getting up once in a while to, heaven forbid, cast a Cure spell.
Well I'm paying for my gametime just like anyone else. If you don't like what I ask, I didn't ask you to play with me.
Just like in the real world: you don't have to associate with me. Yes, people are useless when they're too lazy to be willing to level multiple classes. It's not about elitism, it's about variety and being helpful to me. People that can't be bothered to play different styles aren't worth it to me. Period.
I'm not forcing anyone to associate with me.
I'm not interested in cookie-cutter builds nor walkthroughs, but I am interested in variety. In FFXI, I was the one that kicked bards out of my parties just to get a DRGburn going.
If you can't get over the idea that your playstyle effects other people in a party, then perhaps you should stick to single-player video games.
It's also their right not to associate with me, just as it is my right to require certain playstyles when you decide to play with me or be in my guild/linkshell.
Yeah, they were wrong saying /nin was mandatory. But so are you for insisting on not leveling it when it'd benefit the group overall. I leveled RDM, WHM, and NIN all to 75 not because I had fun with them, but because at the end of the day I wanted to benefit those I played with, and I'll be damned if I let anyone playing with me not give me the same respect in turn.
Of course you won't get it. I may be selfish, but I'm also rational and at the end of the day I expect the same of other people.
I was starting to respond to you point-for-point, but then realized your entire response basically indicates the same three things:
1) You are shamelessly self-centered and openly condescending to those who don't fit neatly into your little "must have" box. That you regard those who haven't leveled the jobs you expect them to as being "lazy" or "inflexible" speaks volumes of your overall attitude. It's all about you, and you look down on anyone who doesn't meet your standards.
Let's turn the issue around for a moment, though, and talk about your inflexibility. That street goes both ways. Why are you unwilling, or perhaps incapable of saying "Okay, well there's this person in my group whose setup isn't what I'd prefer, but we can still make it work just fine with them"? Why are you so inflexible?
Is it that you're simply that stubborn and self-centered? Is it that, like so many others who display a similarly inflexible and condescending attitude, you need people to play a specific way in order to succeed? Is your knowledge of the game lacking to the degree that you can't operate outside specific parameters that you use as a crutch?
2) You use the whole "you don't have to play with me if you don't like it" response as a convenient "out" to forgive yourself the self-centeredness you demonstrate in the rest of your remarks. But that's really not the point, is it? People can choose not to play with someone for any number of reasons.
What I'm getting at here is more about your attitude. Why you feel you have the authority to look down on and speak so condescendingly of people who don't play the way you expect them to? What places you above other players to the degree that you get to dictate how they're supposed to play?
3)To answer two statements directly:
"Yeah, they were wrong saying /nin was mandatory. But so are you for insisting on not leveling it when it'd benefit the group overall"
You're trying to play both sides of the coin here; trying to have it both ways. But then I have a feeling your second statement is the one you are most in agreement with, as it echoes your overall attitude. No, I'm not wrong for not leveling NIN. I didn't level NIN because I don't enjoy the job. On the other hand, I would get into various parties regardless and would prove, time and again, that without NIN I was doing just fine, thus rendering their concerns moot.
I find it funny, and very revealing of your attitude (yet again) that you are quick to point out that you're paying a subscription fee as a way to justify the way you prefer to pay. But yet don't extend that same courtesy to others. I guess you feel your subscription fee earns you the right to dictate how others spend theirs, eh?
This leads me to one of the main issues, something I've touched on. Most people who say "you need to have this job leveled" couldn't tell you why. They don't even know why. They're just parroting what they've heard elsewhere, or what they read in some wiki guide. One of the most perplexing questions you can ask someone who tries to tell you "you need x Job, or you're playing it wrong" is "Why?". Tell them to explain to you, in detail, the reasons. I'd say 8 out of 10 times I asked that question, I got either a BS answer ("everyone knows that" or "the wiki guides say you should", etc), or no answer at all. The remainder of the time, the answers were 100% situational and applied only in specific scenarios, although they would argue it as a "catch-all" that applied all the time, further demonstrating their ignorance.
I've also found that the people who are most demading of specific job setups or party configurations are the first to tell others "learn to play". Ironically, it's they who need to learn to play because their entire "knowledge" of the game is based on specific cookie-cutter builds and walkthrough guides. Switch up or remove one aspect of either, and they fall apart. They can't function. And then they go into "Learn to play!" mode and start lashing out and talking down to those who threw them the curve ball they couldn't catch. Kinda like what you demonstrate in your remarks.
I know plenty of people in my time playing XI (and other games) who have proven - through actual real first-hand knowledge of the game - that any given activity can be completed with a wide variety of setups. It's all about knowing and understanding the game mechanics and job roles and then being able to devise a strategy around that. And no, those alternate setups weren't "gimped" and they didn't "struggle through it" because their setup wasn't "optimal". They performed just fine because the person who assembled them actually understood the game mechanics well enough to make it work.
The idea of "the optimal" anything in terms of a game that offers so much flexibility is an illusion. It's really saying "this is the best and most efficient setup we know of, so it's the one we use". There usually is, and often has been, much better setups than what is considered "optimal". But people do tend to take the path of least resistance, and prefer to follow than lead, don't they. "Most Optimal" is really just saying "most familiar and comfortable to use".
So, in a nutshell, what I'm getting at is this: When someone, like yourself, is so inflexible and so demanding of people to play the way they expect them to, and are as condescending to those who don't as you've demonstrated yourself to be, what I see is someone who can't function unless people are able to play exactly the way you need them to. It's not about them not being flexible or what not. It's about you not knowing the game well enough to function outside your "safe zone" without your crutches to rely on.
Of course you won't get it. I may be selfish, but I'm also rational and at the end of the day I expect the same of other people.
Don't speak for me. I get it just fine. Your attitude is anything but rational. Expecting others to play the way you want them to and referring to them as "lazy" and "inflexible" if they don't is not rational. It's condescending, self-serving and unjustifiably arrogant.
Since now all you're doing is character assassination, I'll only address one thing as I've won this.
I can tell you why for every single job that I expect others to have leveled in FFXI as DRG, and I'll even tell you why NIN is expected to be leveled for other jobs.
1. Samurai - Without it you cannot obtain a 6-hit setup; without it there is no Meditate, meaning even less TP. Achieving 6-hit with Meditate has proven to be the single most beneficial DPS tactic for DRG, and that's not even talking about Hasso which provides a benefit to Attack Speed, Accuracy, and Strength.
2. Warrior - Gives burst damage for 3 out of every 5 minutes through Berserk which is extremely useful against Kirin and most other tank&spank endgame fights.
3. White Mage / Blue Mage - Not just for soloability, but a decent Dragoon/Mage can heal an entire party better than any Dancer, White Mage, or Red Mage. An excellent Drg/Mage can do it at most endgame events, meaning less healers and more DPS without sacrificing that much DPS from the Dragoon.
Now here is the why for NIN for most classes: because no matter what group you're in, the healer is always the most important person to pay attention to and to keep from getting stressed, and /nin relieves their stress because even an average /nin knows how to use Utsusemi properly, and also has Sneak/Invisible waiting.
Now me, when I healed, it depended on whether I was going RDM or WHM, to what event, and whether I had other forms of Refresh whether or not my team members went /nin, /sam, or /war. I much preferred my DPS going /sam or /war because when it came down to it, higher-DPS meant faster kills; but whenever I went a healer with a DRG and I saw them going /nin, the first thing I actually did, and I even had a reputation for it on Fairy & Diabolos, was tell them to go /sam, /war, or /mage, or else I won't heal them.
But going back to your character assassinations... well let's see, I had 75DRG, 75WHM, 75RDM, 75DRK, 75NIN, 75DNC, and was working on THF, BLU, PLD, BST, and everything else was at least 37 (well except BLM, it was infamously 33). Yet YOU still claim I'm inflexible, because I expect certain things out of my team members.
Let's reverse all of this. Why do you feel the need to assassinate someone's character when all they've given has been their honest opinion?
I haven't played FFXIV yet, but my experience post-Abyssea in FFXI made me quit the game -- when leveling means falling asleep at your computer while you press the same macro over and over, even if it's amazing experience points, is a terrible system. As another poster said, once you're at max merits, you have nothing to work towards except do the same thing on another job, which is not interesting gameplay for a once-interesting game. I remember having to try to set up skillchains and magic bursts to get good experience. It was a bit slow, but I made amazing friends and actually had fun during those parties.
Slow XP is only bad if it's awful, like taking a week to gain one level. I think FFXI pre-ToAU had a good pace, the only problem was that it depended on parties and people got frustrated at hours and hours with their LFP flag up. So basically in FFXIV I'd like to see a system that rewards players for playing together (so we can have fun!) but gives us something to do while we wait for a party, or if we only have an hour to play. Which is why I like the leve system in theory -- something you can do by yourself to not waste time, but it should NOT be, in my opinion, equal to or better than partying.
I'm interested to see how parties of 8 instead of 6 work, though.