I think huge successful MMOs will always be possible, but the genre has to move forward. For an MMO to do that well, it has to bring something new to the table, and maybe most importantly, it has to be done well. It has to be a really good game, not just another formulaic MMO that really only appeals to hardcore MMO players.
So far, we're seeing MMO after MMO fail to flourish and grow, simply because they're almost all weak mediocre games. They're passable as MMOs, but sit your average gamer down in front of them, and they're bored out of their mind.
Add to that severe linearity, where people burn through static predictable content, and of course they fail to even hold onto the players that do like the game at first. If they can't hold players, they never get the chance to grow, and strict themepark design is terrible for longevity. Even WoW is like a huge sandbox compared to a lot of the AAA games that have followed it. We're seeing game after game fail in this way, because they're all making similar mistakes.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I think it's ridiculous for a developer to expecta clone of something already successful, ESPECIALLY a MMORPG-- which requires a large investment of the player's time to gain levels, acquire gear, achievements, and whatnot to explore further into its world-- to be just as successful, by expecting a paying subscriber to drop the character they have possibly invested a matter of YEARS into, only to start from scratch-- from ZERO-- in an indentical experience with nothing really new or innovative to add.
But for the classic MMO formula I think companies need to stop expecting millions of subs. WoW may have been a one time phenomenon and remain as it is, the big elephant in the room (which nobody likes but everyone plays).
/discuss ^^
Subs are going to be a thing of the past.
F2P games make more money than the standard Sub games now with only the most popular sub games beating them out.
Microtransactions are the future, Runes of Magic will make more money than Rift this year since the only reason in made more last year was due to game SALES...Atlantica online will make more than all fake F2P games combined...the pay trap games like Age of Conan, EQ2 arent doing well so true F2P microtransaction games will become more popular once the big companies get their heads removed from their backsides about what F2P actually means.
And im glad for it. No one should have to pay a monthly fee to play something they already PAID FOR. A model built around buying goofy items like costumes, mounts and pets is far better and even better than that is USER GENERATED CONTENT. No reason why a player cannot design a costume, note that I am not saying ARMOR WITH STATS...but a costume, something that is worn for a look. Its a ROLE PLAYING GAME, let a person play his role with a look of his choice, and even sell it in the games shop.
That is the future of online RPGs and the upcoming D&D game is just the beginning of that aspect of it.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I think it's ridiculous for a developer to expecta clone of something already successful, ESPECIALLY a MMORPG-- which requires a large investment of the player's time to gain levels, acquire gear, achievements, and whatnot to explore further into its world-- to be just as successful, by expecting a paying subscriber to drop the character they have possibly invested a matter of YEARS into, only to start from scratch-- from ZERO-- in an indentical experience with nothing really new or innovative to add.
I will say this you one time
WOW
WAS
A
EQ
CLONE
Blizzard is actually known for trying their hardest to take something utterly generic, making it feel completely different and superbly made.
EA makes something and you see prettier pictures over the last version made by the same company.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Doesn't matter how many times you say it, I still say you're wrong.
Didn't you play EQ, back before WoW came out? Do you remember zoning into a dungeon, to look for a group to camp a good spot with? Such a drastically different experience than running solo from quest hub to quest hub. EQ didn't even have quest hubs. It barely even had quests, while that's pretty much what WoW's core gameplay is all about.
That's something no other MMO had, before WoW. What it brought to the genre, the whole quest-grinding thing, wasn't done in any other MMO, unless you count questing in games like CoH, AO, or SWG - and they were quite different, relatively speaking. but closer to WoW's core gameplay than EQ was. Hell, I don't even like the quest-grinding thing, but point being, it was somewhat new and different.
Now we've got these MMOs people call WoW-clones, like Rift and TOR, and its not because they offer a vaguely similar questing experience. It's because they offer an almost identical questing experience.. in much smaller, more linear, more instanced gameworlds.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
As long as a subscription based MMO, continue to be shallow, with no complexity what so ever, and developed like a single player game, then ya they will never hold a retention rate longer than a few months.
This isnt brain surgery, look at the games tha have done it. Obviously you have WoW at #1 but look at the other ones. EQ XI Lineage, just to name a few. Excluding wow what do they have that modern MMO's dont? Challenging content, things are not handed to you, you can play for months and never reach cap. I promise if an MMO took old school elements and made it today it would hold 500k subs easy. It wont sell millions of copies either though. MMORPG's have always been a niche genre. These single player online rpg's that maquarde as MMORPG's are not MMORPG. SWTOR is an insult to the MMORPG genre. The line has been blurred of what an MMORPG is, and what single player RPGs have evolved into.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
As long as a subscription based MMO, continue to be shallow, with no complexity what so ever, and developed like a single player game, then ya they will never hold a retention rate longer than a few months.
This isnt brain surgery, look at the games tha have done it. Obviously you have WoW at #1 but look at the other ones. EQ XI Lineage, just to name a few. Excluding wow what do they have that modern MMO's dont? Challenging content, things are not handed to you, you can play for months and never reach cap. I promise if an MMO took old school elements and made it today it would hold 500k subs easy. It wont sell millions of copies either though. MMORPG's have always been a niche genre. These single player online rpg's that maquarde as MMORPG's are not MMORPG. SWTOR is an insult to the MMORPG genre. The line has been blurred of what an MMORPG is, and what single player RPGs have evolved into.
Big bussiness is all about seeing big fluctuating numbers on balance sheets. So people who took the front end monetary risk can get their return and gamble on the next one.
CCP/EvE style growth and return are unacceptable.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
You should probably add (traditional) RPG to MMO as that's what you're faulting here. MMO's are still very young, and it's only one specific genre that has been tried and tried again to no, or little, avail. This EQ-WoW-Whatever genre will probably only have limited success in future, it's the others that we should look forward to.
MMO's will reach the millions again. Forever is a long time, and to say that it won't happen is short-sighted.
As long as a subscription based MMO, continue to be shallow, with no complexity what so ever, and developed like a single player game, then ya they will never hold a retention rate longer than a few months.
This isnt brain surgery, look at the games tha have done it. Obviously you have WoW at #1 but look at the other ones. EQ XI Lineage, just to name a few. Excluding wow what do they have that modern MMO's dont? Challenging content, things are not handed to you, you can play for months and never reach cap. I promise if an MMO took old school elements and made it today it would hold 500k subs easy. It wont sell millions of copies either though. MMORPG's have always been a niche genre. These single player online rpg's that maquarde as MMORPG's are not MMORPG. SWTOR is an insult to the MMORPG genre. The line has been blurred of what an MMORPG is, and what single player RPGs have evolved into.
Big bussiness is all about seeing big fluctuating numbers on balance sheets. So people who took the front end monetary risk can get their return and gamble on the next one.
CCP/EvE style growth and return are unacceptable.
I am still holding faith that one day someone will make a real MMORPG again, even though everything follows the buisness model you describe. That model is exactly why we have ghost towns 4 months after launch. Unfortunatly they still make a good profit.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
lotro did it for a while, rift is currently doing it, eve has done it for a long time, swtor looks like it will be keeping a high retention even thought it peeked. Many other games also have a lot higher retention then people think. Most of funcom games have flopped by gamers standards but have been more then enought to keep the company afloat and growing.
Gamers are not really as good at judging how successful a game is as they think they are.
If you really believe rift has at least 400k subs, I don't really know what to say to that. I would be willing to bet that TOR is down to the high end of the OP sub numbers. Outside of wow, the only western games to sustain over 400k games for more than initial release and a few months was EQ and now EVE has.
WoW was a fluke. For a number of reasons that will never be recreated.
It will never happen again, not while gaming is still presented on a PC with a keyboard and mouse.
People come up with alot of theory why wow is successful. But none of those apply to why wow is still successful. People could play UO or SWG for 7-8 years too. But very few do it.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
As long as a subscription based MMO, continue to be shallow, with no complexity what so ever, and developed like a single player game, then ya they will never hold a retention rate longer than a few months.
This isnt brain surgery, look at the games tha have done it. Obviously you have WoW at #1 but look at the other ones. EQ XI Lineage, just to name a few. Excluding wow what do they have that modern MMO's dont? Challenging content, things are not handed to you, you can play for months and never reach cap. I promise if an MMO took old school elements and made it today it would hold 500k subs easy. It wont sell millions of copies either though. MMORPG's have always been a niche genre. These single player online rpg's that maquarde as MMORPG's are not MMORPG. SWTOR is an insult to the MMORPG genre. The line has been blurred of what an MMORPG is, and what single player RPGs have evolved into.
For the record, you should not avoid wow in this respect, most people forget that the current wow is heads away from the original game (probably because only the "raiders" are left there from those times), and while it was a watered down version of what you are talking about, it was still enough to count, it might have been unintentional or an oversight (for example i read somewhere that eq2 style dungeons, large scale, were plastered on very late into development, 5-10mans were the original end game, and i think the old dungeons show it), but it was "deep enough", imho.
I think it's ridiculous for a developer to expecta clone of something already successful, ESPECIALLY a MMORPG-- which requires a large investment of the player's time to gain levels, acquire gear, achievements, and whatnot to explore further into its world-- to be just as successful, by expecting a paying subscriber to drop the character they have possibly invested a matter of YEARS into, only to start from scratch-- from ZERO-- in an indentical experience with nothing really new or innovative to add.
That's like trying to get an Apple fan to dump their iPad for a new consumer brand tablet with less or supposedly equal options for downloadable apps.
Any developer that expects to retain subscriptions based on this principle is just asking for failure.
Sure, they could use a well-known IP as their premise, but if Popsicle® brand Fudgsicles are already your favorite, and some generic or unknown store brand offers their "fudgsicle knock-off" for the same price, which one are you going to buy, and which one are you going to scoff at?
What if they slap the name "Nestle Quick®" in front of it, but it tastes kind of crappy? What happens to the Nestle Quick® brand name then?
Aw, Hell yes!
Just say "No!" to knock-offs!
This doesn't make sense, because World of Warcraft, is just that,,, a clone of another popular MMO. But it went on to grow into the millions.
the statement, that WoW was an EQ-Clone is one of the big urban myth of the MMO. it is fully wrong. this statement comes from theoreticians who never played EQ pre-PoK.
WoW (and EQ2 which launched in parallel with the same approach) changed the MMO-model dramatically and fundamentally. nearly no design-paradigm of good old EQ remained untouched. well, you could say that the car was a clone of the train, because it came later and had wheels and an engine. but this is not, what clone means. btw, in the MMO-market, the train came later
i doubt too, that 10 million subscribers will be possible again. but a few millions should be possible, if somebody changes again the design paradigms of the MMO fundamentally. this is what i call innovation. not just one or two new functions attached to the same old model. the question is, if that game will be subscriber-based, so we can measure it and compare it.
but we will know it happened, when WoW drops below 1 million rather fast
perhaps the GW2 model (dynamic events, lateral progression, ... and more) becomes sucesfull and TSW will bring back skill oriented systems and we will see a lot of GW2-clones in the next years. then, WoW might start to drop numbers heavily. but this is then not the success of just 1 game. it is a paradigm shift of the genre driven by the majority of new games.
7-8 years ago 200,000 players was considered a big hit. It still is. But developers have used Wow's success to sell investors and have began seriously bloating budgets, and suddenly that success doesn't seem like the same any more. But I think the biggest thing is each game is just like the last with a couple tweaks. Players consume the content, they move on to the next. Until someone does something revolutionary, this trend will likely keep happening.
I still cant wrap my brain around how it costs 50 million + to develop a game. Most of the work is labor with a small portion going towards rent, utilities, and liscensing. And i also dont understand the need for a staff of 120 to make a game.
Have you ever tried making a game??? Have ever modeled anything, animated, unwrapped a model, texture etc??? By that reply , I would say NO....
DO you need that many depends, MMO's are the hardest most expensive games to make period, can it be done with a few people sure , but depends, what kind of game your making and the quality , content etc.. I been going to school for Game design and nearly have my degree so I see what is all involved, I make small scale games that take me and a few people years to do.. because alot is involved and Hrs and hrs worth of work and talent..... So until you work with any piece of software in game design you may wanna rethink what you just said....
@others, the reason we keep seeing clones is because WOW clones make money and Publisher have a hard time wanting to take a chance with any other type of game..
Another reason 99% of new Devs do not wanna make MMO's you know why??? I wanted to make MMo's I love them but after seeing how much money I can make on smaller scale games and with less respources I no longer wanna....
Most also hate MMo's because gamers cry way to much in MMO, and I agree I see that as I have gotten older, gamers are whiney and picky about the dumbest things so gamers have ruined it for everyone, so stop cryiing or gamers who are in school, won't bother they do not have to deal with as many whiners with Xbox games, or even Iphone games and more money and faster money is made and those are all facts.... If you think NOT, then go to school and see for your self... I never would of fully belived it until I went and I see it .... I laugh when people complain now...... Because gamers have ruined it...
Only way we will ever get good games, if gamers make them, and only way gamers will, is if gamers stop crying about every darn thing .!!!
the statement, that WoW was an EQ-Clone is one of the big urban myth of the MMO. it is fully wrong. this statement comes from theoreticians who never played EQ pre-PoK.
WoW (and EQ2 which launched in parallel with the same approach) changed the MMO-modell dramatically and fundamentally. nearly no design-paradigm of good old EQ remained untouched. well, you could say that the car was a clone of the train, because it came later and had wheels and an engine. but this is not, what clone means. btw, in the MMO-market, the train came later
i doubt too, that 10 million subscribers will be possible again. but a few millions should be possible, if somebody changes again the design paradigms of the MMO fundamentally. this is what i call innovation. not just one or two new functions attached to the same old model. the question is, if that game will be subscriber-based, so we can measure it and compare it.
but we will know it happened, when WoW drops below 1 million rather fast
perhaps the GW2 model becomes sucesfull and TSW will bring back skill oriented systems and we will see a lot of GW2-clones in the next years. then, WoW might start to drop numbers heavily. but this is then not the success if just 1 game. it is a paradigm shift of the genre driven by the majority of new games.
huh? Blizzard's WoW developers even stated that EQ influenced the design. Hey they even went as far as to copy/paste class skills over to WoW. Want proof, look at WoW's Vanilla Paladin, and compare it to the mechanics of the EQ Cleric. copy/paste, than late beta they changed names of stuff. come on...
the statement, that WoW was an EQ-Clone is one of the big urban myth of the MMO. it is fully wrong. this statement comes from theoreticians who never played EQ pre-PoK.
huh? Blizzard's WoW developers even stated that EQ influenced the design. Hey they even went as far as to copy/paste class skills over to WoW. Want proof, look at WoW's Vanilla Paladin, and compare it to the mechanics of the EQ Cleric. copy/paste, than late beta they changed names of stuff. come on...
as i said, they both have wheels, but the main design paradigms are fully shifted. the entire gameplay is fully different.
WoW is linear, EQ was not
WoW has fast paced action oriented combat, EQ had not
WoW is utterly refined and micromanaged, EQ was not
WoW is highly accesible, EQ was not
WoW is quest- oriented, EQ was not
WoW is balanced, EQ was not
WoW uses instances heavily, EQ had none
WoW has a weak death penalty, EQ had a harsh one
WoW is fast levelling, EQ was not
i can list 10 more main design paradigms which are contrary and lead to a fully different gaming experience. Blizzard said, that they have been inspired by EQ. this is correct. but they looked at it more, in order to change things fundamentally, than to keep things. all they kept was superficial like they have classes and races and levels. well, GW2 has classes, levels and races as well. do you call it a WOW-clone?
PS: before i forget the most important one: EQ had drama, WOW has not. we lost the drama baby. the good old drama was moved to forums only.
the statement, that WoW was an EQ-Clone is one of the big urban myth of the MMO. it is fully wrong. this statement comes from theoreticians who never played EQ pre-PoK.
huh? Blizzard's WoW developers even stated that EQ influenced the design. Hey they even went as far as to copy/paste class skills over to WoW. Want proof, look at WoW's Vanilla Paladin, and compare it to the mechanics of the EQ Cleric. copy/paste, than late beta they changed names of stuff. come on...
as i said, they both have wheels, but the main design paradigms are fully shifted. the entire gameplay is fully different.
WoW is linear, EQ was not
WoW has fast paced action oriented combat, EQ had not
WoW is utterly refined and micromanaged, EQ was not
WoW is highly accesible, EQ was not
WoW is quest- oriented, EQ was not
WoW is balanced, EQ was not
WoW uses instances heavily, EQ had none
WoW has a weak death penalty, EQ had a harsh one
WoW is fast levelling, EQ was not
i can list 10 more main design paradigms which are contrary and lead to a fully different gaming experience. Blizzard said, that they have been inspired by EQ. this is correct. but they looked at it more, in order to change things fundamentally, than to keep things. all they kept was superficial like they have classes and races and levels. well, GW2 has classes, levels and races as well. do you call it a WOW-clone?
PS: before i forget the most important one: EQ had drama, WOW has not. we lost the drama baby. the good old drama was moved to forums only.
The problem with your compirisons is that EQ became all of things WoW was at release after a succession of xpacs and many of those things were in EQ before WoW was released. These are the things that inspired WoW's refinements not the unfinished and poorly designed EQ version at release. Missing stuff are features to you guys which is hilarious.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Oh, 500k subs is plenty - on the rule of thumb that 10% - 20% of subs are online at any given time, thats 100k people, so that would be 50 servers with a 2.5k player maximum.
Only problem is that the game would have to keep these many players longtime, but then there would be enough income to finance a 200-400 developer team to keep it running and continously create new content.
In a few years there won't be such a thing as "subscription" anymore
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
I guess it depends on what is considered "the long run"....... IF you mean more than 5 years then yeah it may be tough for a p2p game to keep people subbed that long.....Nowadays the trend appears to be go p2p the first year or two and get as much as yo ucan, then go f2p and try to bring in as many people as you can and make the money off the cash shop or some other way.
Comments
what if a MMO came out like "the world" in the .hack series
virtual reality headsets and a gamepad to play
I think huge successful MMOs will always be possible, but the genre has to move forward. For an MMO to do that well, it has to bring something new to the table, and maybe most importantly, it has to be done well. It has to be a really good game, not just another formulaic MMO that really only appeals to hardcore MMO players.
So far, we're seeing MMO after MMO fail to flourish and grow, simply because they're almost all weak mediocre games. They're passable as MMOs, but sit your average gamer down in front of them, and they're bored out of their mind.
Add to that severe linearity, where people burn through static predictable content, and of course they fail to even hold onto the players that do like the game at first. If they can't hold players, they never get the chance to grow, and strict themepark design is terrible for longevity. Even WoW is like a huge sandbox compared to a lot of the AAA games that have followed it. We're seeing game after game fail in this way, because they're all making similar mistakes.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I will say this you one time
WOW
WAS
A
EQ
CLONE
Subs are going to be a thing of the past.
F2P games make more money than the standard Sub games now with only the most popular sub games beating them out.
Microtransactions are the future, Runes of Magic will make more money than Rift this year since the only reason in made more last year was due to game SALES...Atlantica online will make more than all fake F2P games combined...the pay trap games like Age of Conan, EQ2 arent doing well so true F2P microtransaction games will become more popular once the big companies get their heads removed from their backsides about what F2P actually means.
And im glad for it. No one should have to pay a monthly fee to play something they already PAID FOR. A model built around buying goofy items like costumes, mounts and pets is far better and even better than that is USER GENERATED CONTENT. No reason why a player cannot design a costume, note that I am not saying ARMOR WITH STATS...but a costume, something that is worn for a look. Its a ROLE PLAYING GAME, let a person play his role with a look of his choice, and even sell it in the games shop.
That is the future of online RPGs and the upcoming D&D game is just the beginning of that aspect of it.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Blizzard is actually known for trying their hardest to take something utterly generic, making it feel completely different and superbly made.
EA makes something and you see prettier pictures over the last version made by the same company.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Doesn't matter how many times you say it, I still say you're wrong.
Didn't you play EQ, back before WoW came out? Do you remember zoning into a dungeon, to look for a group to camp a good spot with? Such a drastically different experience than running solo from quest hub to quest hub. EQ didn't even have quest hubs. It barely even had quests, while that's pretty much what WoW's core gameplay is all about.
That's something no other MMO had, before WoW. What it brought to the genre, the whole quest-grinding thing, wasn't done in any other MMO, unless you count questing in games like CoH, AO, or SWG - and they were quite different, relatively speaking. but closer to WoW's core gameplay than EQ was. Hell, I don't even like the quest-grinding thing, but point being, it was somewhat new and different.
Now we've got these MMOs people call WoW-clones, like Rift and TOR, and its not because they offer a vaguely similar questing experience. It's because they offer an almost identical questing experience.. in much smaller, more linear, more instanced gameworlds.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
As long as a subscription based MMO, continue to be shallow, with no complexity what so ever, and developed like a single player game, then ya they will never hold a retention rate longer than a few months.
This isnt brain surgery, look at the games tha have done it. Obviously you have WoW at #1 but look at the other ones. EQ XI Lineage, just to name a few. Excluding wow what do they have that modern MMO's dont? Challenging content, things are not handed to you, you can play for months and never reach cap. I promise if an MMO took old school elements and made it today it would hold 500k subs easy. It wont sell millions of copies either though. MMORPG's have always been a niche genre. These single player online rpg's that maquarde as MMORPG's are not MMORPG. SWTOR is an insult to the MMORPG genre. The line has been blurred of what an MMORPG is, and what single player RPGs have evolved into.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Big bussiness is all about seeing big fluctuating numbers on balance sheets. So people who took the front end monetary risk can get their return and gamble on the next one.
CCP/EvE style growth and return are unacceptable.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
You should probably add (traditional) RPG to MMO as that's what you're faulting here. MMO's are still very young, and it's only one specific genre that has been tried and tried again to no, or little, avail. This EQ-WoW-Whatever genre will probably only have limited success in future, it's the others that we should look forward to.
MMO's will reach the millions again. Forever is a long time, and to say that it won't happen is short-sighted.
I am still holding faith that one day someone will make a real MMORPG again, even though everything follows the buisness model you describe. That model is exactly why we have ghost towns 4 months after launch. Unfortunatly they still make a good profit.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
player base is too split up with the massive amount of variety we have nowadays
If you really believe rift has at least 400k subs, I don't really know what to say to that. I would be willing to bet that TOR is down to the high end of the OP sub numbers. Outside of wow, the only western games to sustain over 400k games for more than initial release and a few months was EQ and now EVE has.
People come up with alot of theory why wow is successful. But none of those apply to why wow is still successful. People could play UO or SWG for 7-8 years too. But very few do it.
It'll happen again. But not for a looooong time.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Calling it a fluke might make more sense if the company didn't have a proven track record of extremely successful games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
For the record, you should not avoid wow in this respect, most people forget that the current wow is heads away from the original game (probably because only the "raiders" are left there from those times), and while it was a watered down version of what you are talking about, it was still enough to count, it might have been unintentional or an oversight (for example i read somewhere that eq2 style dungeons, large scale, were plastered on very late into development, 5-10mans were the original end game, and i think the old dungeons show it), but it was "deep enough", imho.
Flame on!
This doesn't make sense, because World of Warcraft, is just that,,, a clone of another popular MMO. But it went on to grow into the millions.Philosophy of MMO Game Design
the statement, that WoW was an EQ-Clone is one of the big urban myth of the MMO. it is fully wrong. this statement comes from theoreticians who never played EQ pre-PoK.
WoW (and EQ2 which launched in parallel with the same approach) changed the MMO-model dramatically and fundamentally. nearly no design-paradigm of good old EQ remained untouched. well, you could say that the car was a clone of the train, because it came later and had wheels and an engine. but this is not, what clone means. btw, in the MMO-market, the train came later
i doubt too, that 10 million subscribers will be possible again. but a few millions should be possible, if somebody changes again the design paradigms of the MMO fundamentally. this is what i call innovation. not just one or two new functions attached to the same old model. the question is, if that game will be subscriber-based, so we can measure it and compare it.
but we will know it happened, when WoW drops below 1 million rather fast
perhaps the GW2 model (dynamic events, lateral progression, ... and more) becomes sucesfull and TSW will bring back skill oriented systems and we will see a lot of GW2-clones in the next years. then, WoW might start to drop numbers heavily. but this is then not the success of just 1 game. it is a paradigm shift of the genre driven by the majority of new games.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
Have you ever tried making a game??? Have ever modeled anything, animated, unwrapped a model, texture etc??? By that reply , I would say NO....
DO you need that many depends, MMO's are the hardest most expensive games to make period, can it be done with a few people sure , but depends, what kind of game your making and the quality , content etc.. I been going to school for Game design and nearly have my degree so I see what is all involved, I make small scale games that take me and a few people years to do.. because alot is involved and Hrs and hrs worth of work and talent..... So until you work with any piece of software in game design you may wanna rethink what you just said....
@others, the reason we keep seeing clones is because WOW clones make money and Publisher have a hard time wanting to take a chance with any other type of game..
Another reason 99% of new Devs do not wanna make MMO's you know why??? I wanted to make MMo's I love them but after seeing how much money I can make on smaller scale games and with less respources I no longer wanna....
Most also hate MMo's because gamers cry way to much in MMO, and I agree I see that as I have gotten older, gamers are whiney and picky about the dumbest things so gamers have ruined it for everyone, so stop cryiing or gamers who are in school, won't bother they do not have to deal with as many whiners with Xbox games, or even Iphone games and more money and faster money is made and those are all facts.... If you think NOT, then go to school and see for your self... I never would of fully belived it until I went and I see it .... I laugh when people complain now...... Because gamers have ruined it...
Only way we will ever get good games, if gamers make them, and only way gamers will, is if gamers stop crying about every darn thing .!!!
huh? Blizzard's WoW developers even stated that EQ influenced the design. Hey they even went as far as to copy/paste class skills over to WoW. Want proof, look at WoW's Vanilla Paladin, and compare it to the mechanics of the EQ Cleric. copy/paste, than late beta they changed names of stuff. come on...
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
as i said, they both have wheels, but the main design paradigms are fully shifted. the entire gameplay is fully different.
WoW is linear, EQ was not
WoW has fast paced action oriented combat, EQ had not
WoW is utterly refined and micromanaged, EQ was not
WoW is highly accesible, EQ was not
WoW is quest- oriented, EQ was not
WoW is balanced, EQ was not
WoW uses instances heavily, EQ had none
WoW has a weak death penalty, EQ had a harsh one
WoW is fast levelling, EQ was not
i can list 10 more main design paradigms which are contrary and lead to a fully different gaming experience. Blizzard said, that they have been inspired by EQ. this is correct. but they looked at it more, in order to change things fundamentally, than to keep things. all they kept was superficial like they have classes and races and levels. well, GW2 has classes, levels and races as well. do you call it a WOW-clone?
PS: before i forget the most important one: EQ had drama, WOW has not. we lost the drama baby. the good old drama was moved to forums only.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
The problem with your compirisons is that EQ became all of things WoW was at release after a succession of xpacs and many of those things were in EQ before WoW was released. These are the things that inspired WoW's refinements not the unfinished and poorly designed EQ version at release. Missing stuff are features to you guys which is hilarious.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Oh, 500k subs is plenty - on the rule of thumb that 10% - 20% of subs are online at any given time, thats 100k people, so that would be 50 servers with a 2.5k player maximum.
Only problem is that the game would have to keep these many players longtime, but then there would be enough income to finance a 200-400 developer team to keep it running and continously create new content.
In a few years there won't be such a thing as "subscription" anymore
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB
Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP
Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
I guess it depends on what is considered "the long run"....... IF you mean more than 5 years then yeah it may be tough for a p2p game to keep people subbed that long.....Nowadays the trend appears to be go p2p the first year or two and get as much as yo ucan, then go f2p and try to bring in as many people as you can and make the money off the cash shop or some other way.