Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
the its only convenience argument
I'm currently wrestling with the cash shop issue with GW2.
I've followed a few threads and read "as long as its only convenience, not real advantage I'm ok" quite a bit.
I understand playing GW2 anyway, but I don't understand the argument. It says you are ok with devs having an economic incentive to shape gameplay towards players buying convenience.
Shouldn't we as players be a bit more wary? It is an online game, the devs have the right to change the gameplay whenever and however they see fit. What follows is inconvenience creep because it will increase profits and as people keep saying Anet is a business and they are driven by profits. So little by little, concession by concession we welcome a business model into our home that manipulates and pressures us to spend money the whole time we play, not too much mind you and certainly it must balance with potential profits from expansions, but in baby steps.
The current state of the CS is irrelevant in this context, it is the presence of gameplay convenience for cash in what is likely to be a highly sucessful MMO and what will happen as the game evolves, and as the genre evolves.
Now, another creep point will be the balance "zone" between not peeving too many players and losing potential future profits from expansions versus more immediate profits by increasing players use of the CS. This is where I get really worried. I think it is shifting quite rapidly and companies are getting braver and braver.
I don't think I'll not buy GW2 but gradually this genre is slipping into business models that will annoy me too much to play.
The irony is that I think box prices and subscriptions are way too cheap. I'd happily pay up to $150, say, for a game I know won't manipulate me to spend while I play.
Discuss.
Comments
what subscribtions ? you find a subscribtion of zero too cheap?
if you want to discuss this please state loud and clearly if you prefer subscription or not. Because it's a very improtant distinction to determinate where this discussion could go.
the slope you are talking about is going to Pay to win (P2W) .
But basicly all convineice argument is based on its possible to have a road between P2W and subscribtion, something ArenaNet have shown in GW1 that they are able to follow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
the best evidence we have is GW1 which doesn't really appear to have slipped down a horrid slope.
TBH this getting to be a very old issue. GW 1 has had a cs forever and it never kiilled the balance in the game. If it weighs that heaviliy on you then honestly dont play because while every one else is trying to have fun your worry about a cs that likely wont impact you.
I agree with most of your points. But you must know that not everyone is able to pay 150 $ for a game. Hence the option of Collector's Edition, Deluxe Edition and Cash Shop.
I just hope it will not be so "in your face" when you open the game (like Age of Conan's for example). But subtle icon that you won't be needing to click if you don't want to... ever.
www.gamersbook.com - Community for Gamers.
Ugh really another one of these?
What would you rather have 1000 players spending 1 dollar or 100 players spending 8 dollars.
It's in Anet's best interest to keep advantages out of the cash shop so they don't alienate a good portion of their playerbase. Their business actually depends on not alienating their playerbase. Stop comparing one cash shop to another and start comparing how they relate to their respective games.
The aregument I don't understand is the I'm willing to overpay way to much to not have to deal with it. That is just elitism in my book.
Cash shops personally almost never bothered me, the only times it did bother me was when it restricted areas and certain other things like classes and races, though it is easy to realize how a "Pay to Win" cash shop can turn down many players, gear with excessive stats, consumables that gives a huge advantage over the standard consumables and such, but if you aren't a competitive player, even these can be overlooked easily, i personally avoid PvP whenever possible, i prefer being a coop player in a PvE environment, where things like these aren't as much an issue.
Another thing (Note that it doesn't apply to many games though) is that some awards you with points that you usually buy with real cash from playing their MMOs, namely DDO and LOTRO, the sums aren't high in themselves, but they reward their players, and if you are patient enough, you can gradually unlock those restrictions without spending, it's a good way to incitate players to keep playing their product because they don't feel 100% blocked by the restrictions.
I am personally a gamer that plays games like a nomad, so i am glad that lots of games have a low price and sometimes wacky sale prices, otherwise i wouldn't be able to feed my gamer satiation, a couple games did hook me up during the years, but those are rare, i personally enjoyed Neverwinter Nights 1, i really overplayed that game like none others, and i played DDO a lot too, but i burnt myself out after some years of playing on it, i purchased the Mount & Blade that was on a 75% off sale this week-end on steam, it's a nice game and it didn't comes out too costly for me, but as it comes to MMOs, right now i am keeping an eye on Neverwinter, i personally like Star Trek Online, though i didn't play it in it's early days, i enjoyed it when i started playing it.
All this to say is that cash shops aren't an issue if you do not obssess over them and if they aren't in the way to a point that is obstruct your gameplay majorly, though of course if you are into PvP, a "Pay 2 Win" cash shop is terrible and a good way to disgust a lot of players, as for game prices, i gotta agree with the previous poster, that sounds like elitism, but that's your opinion and you have full rights to think that way.
Weird. How did you read my post and not understand I prefer business models with no cash shop? Whether it has a subscription or not is irrelevant because games like D&D that DO have a subscription option ALSO tell me I can buy health potions every time I die.
The slope is not about going to P2W it is about the blurring of business models and the slippery slope to the gaming industry becoming more and more like the diet industry, preying on the easily manipulated.
The example of GW1 is heartening but at the same time it is 2012 now and the world has changed.
It's simple, really. Convenience doesn't give you much of an advantage, if the game is set up correctly. You could look at it as a balance on time. Some people have less time, more money, some people have less money, more time. This basically means that you aren't being punished for not being able to play the game as long as someone w/ no job or responsibilities. It all comes back down to skill being more important than anything else, and in this case it is. You can't buy skill from the cash shop, and that is the determining factor in all fights.
That said, I do agree that players should 'watch their devs carefully' in this aspect. As we've seen with other games (ME3 anyone? How about Allods?) it's very easy to abuse such a feature. People have already spoken up over some of the previous Cash Shop items, and they have been changed.
However, I think it's absolutely ludicrous to punish a developer for other developer's mistakes. This isn't Blizzard, this isn't EA, this is a fairly new game studio. At least wait until Anet makes a mistake before you star chastizing them for it. The gaming industry has enough problems, chewing apart any new studio that tries to do things a bit different isn't going to help anyone.
u have failed to undestand the business model Anet has employed
They will not make that much money by cash shop in the long run -Its just an additional side income by selling vanity items and a good way to fight gold spammers.
Count my words in the next 3 to 4 years they will relase atleast 3 expansion or additional zones or campaigns etc etc
$60 * 4 = $240 from each person .Thats how they reached the 5 million + sales mark in GW1 and managed to keep if without subs.GW1 never had 5 million players playing it always had 1-2 million player who ended up as repeat buyers.
and this is there core business model they are counting on you to buy each and every expanion they bring out and in the next 4 years or so they wil reach the 10 million sales mark easily if not sooner.
I play a lot of MMOs and I have bought AOC,WAR,STO,Darkfall, AION, SWTOR and the max ever I sub was for 7 months for a specific months many games i gave up withing 2 months so each of these games have been able to take from me average from $90 to $150
On GW1 wihout being forced I have spent over $250 over last 4 years on campaigns / storage /costumes /direct PVP sets/ character slot etc.
this is exactly what they expect to replicate with GW2 .
But most players dont think all or most advantages are P2W. So they can still sell advantages and claim the game is not P2W.
I think they will sell advantage items in the CS. But they will try to be as convincing as possible and explain why those items are not really P2W. And they will perhaps call them convinience items.
Some players will not agree and claim that all possible advantage items are P2W. This is certainly subjective. But it is also perfectly valid from those players POV.
Why is it elitism? If someone really dont like the CS business model it would be better to just wish them good luck and hope they can find a game they can enjoy. If they are prepared to pay a lot for that game its up to them.
In the end ArenaNet wants to earn money, right? Every MMO has a certain kind of financial model.
Do I want to pay a monthly subscription? No, not anymore.
Do I want to play a game, that repeatedly tells me "stop, if you want to go on playing here, you must buy the content online"? No.
Do I want PvP, where I have no chance and then somebody tells me: "Oh, you have to buy good armor first, for real money"? No.
ArenaNet's cash shop ist one mayor reason to like GW! There are a lot of people out there who like to pay a few dollars for nice looking stuff nobody else has. Or what a about a nice gift for your friend? And I have no problem with somebody who makes his 5th alt and just does not have the time to level it completely up to level 80, if he wants to pay for that, why not? Eventually, there will be no china-farmers and no goldsellers, since it is ArenaNet that already sells gold.
Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.
Thank you for that, but I do get the point about an even playing field for PvP... and yes, I understand cash shops can be REALLY bad, and GW2 is B2P and therefore the CS in GW2 is relatively acceptable.
But players defending a CS with convenience items because no items give advantage, this is one of those baby steps to where box price + CS + subscription will be the norm, and every time you die you are reminded that you could have avoided dying only if you had spent a bit more $.
See thats why i had to ask you if you prefer a subscribtion model. Because thats slope could be argued to be the same that actual fuel most subscribtion models. Endless grind or raiding to be special.
I am simply of the oppinion that you are wrong that its not about having a subscribtion model or not. It has every thing to do with what you can expect to get money from gamers from. And what gamers can expect to be fair. And thats about the choice to have a subscribtion or not. It influence whats expected to be fair in a cashshop alot. So it's not irrelevant.
I don't care what other use their money for in cashshop . But i do care if it influence my game experience. Thats why it has everything to do with P2W.
I do care about every buisness model in a game that seperate players. And that what P2W do and what most Subscription games do in order to keep getting money from players.
I do appriciate your concerns for the easyly manipulated, but i do feel that a minor issue compared to the problems there basicly can be with thesse buisnesmodels.
No offense, but it sounds like you didn't fully understand my point. It's not because it's B2P that the cash shop isn't an issue. It's that it isn't an issue 'right now'. First of all, Anet is the only MMO developer that uses the B2P model. Everyone else either does subs, or F2P (which usually does have a botched cash shop).
Anet is sort of splitting the difference. You buy the game & expansions, but they also have a cash shop, however they aren't entirely reliant on either one for profit, so they can afford to be a bit more lenient on both. Basically, the model in & of itself does not force the company to make people use the cash shop.
However, there is the factor of greed. If Anet decides to get greedy, they will quickly become the latest forgotten about MMO developer. They are a relatively new company, made by vets in the industry that wanted to do things differently. Trying to make change by screwing over their players would be a monumentally stupid move for a new company to make. Anet understands this. Furthermore, there are examples of things they included in the cash shop (like transmutation stones), which players didn't like, and Anet changed them. (Now transmutation stones aren't cash shop exclusive, and can be obtained easily in the world).
- Something to think about: Anet's entire philosophy revolves around them wanting to build a healthy gaming community. They say it multiple times, and you can tell in how they have implemented features in the game. Plus, they are doing lots of little things to inspire community building (ie the latest photoblog they invited fans to contribute to for the BWE).
Do you really think a company so focused on building a community around them would want to go for a crash grab right now? I'm not predicting the future, they may eventually get corrupt, and then my opinion of them would change. However, as of right now, have they really done anything to earn people's distrust? I don't think so, I think they are getting most of the backlash from other MMOs, and it's not entire fair tbh. They have shown they care about their fans. I think some people need to chill & wait for Anet to actually do something worth scrutinizing before flaming them.
To answer your question...we don't know. Arenanet may hold the line and have a benevolent/non-invasive cash shop, or they might start immediately recoding the game to increase grind and death and offer health potions and time reducers in the shop.
What I can tell you definitely, with certainty, and in unequivocal terms is this: Their core base of players aren't stupid. As a matter of fact most understood the evils of milking customers for $$$ in a subscription model and hated it so much they made the non-sub GW1 a success.
If the cash shop gets as bad as you suggest, I am sure the enlightened players in this game will leave in droves, and in leaving I am also certain that those pissed players will be sure to tell as many gamers in the world as they can that the game has gone FtP and tell them not to bother with it.
Wtf? This shit ever gets that expensive think I'll find a different hobby.
As for the cash shop in this game? I'm waiting to see what they actually offer upon release to make my final determination one way or the other.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Just out of interest why didn't you post this in one of those threads?
Done to death.
I have no idea why anyone thinks that a cash shop matters in GW2. If you are thinking in the old "gear grind" end-game mentality, where investing huge amounts of time getting better gear is the ultimate difference between your character and any other, then perhaps what they sell in a cash shop matters.
In a game like this, what difference does it make if they sell fully-developed and equipped whole characters through the cash shop?
As much as I hate the idea , the fact is that you don't even need it to enjoy the game. So I got over myself about it and now I'm fine!
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
im just gonna jump in here, one point i'd like to make is during gameplay at no point does gulld wars 2 point you to the cash shop, or remind you the cash shop is there, or tell you the game would be easier if you use the cash shop...
infact, the cash shop is out of the way unless you're actually looking for it.. it's never in your face or pushed onto you... it never pops up on it's own or anything like that and i honestly think arena net would never develop there game to be like this.
Edit - the way i look at it and why it isnt a problem to me,
1 - they're not forcing me to pay for professions, races zones or content (everything is included in your box price)
2 - 100% exp gain on monster kills for 1 hour, doesnt really give you that much experience increase, trust me it's minimal you do not get a lot of exp from killing monsters, mob grinding is no way to level in this game at all
3 - every item in the cash shop is available in game if you want to put in the time... as it was stated before some people have the time to farm the items others dont, there will be items available in games from i'm assuming high level world bosses, dungeons etc... that you wont be able to get in the cash shop so i'm assuming a certain level of destinction can come from working for these items...
4 - i honestly think the main point i'm trying to make is, everything in the cash shop will be available in game and not vice versa, i would highly doubt that arena net would go to all the trouble of creating these deep dungeon experiences with unique loot.. and then let you buy it from the cash shop as an example
I don't think either way really matters at all,it still comes down to "you get what you pay for" and is it a fair shake?
IMO cash shop is a definite big NO,not in any form what so ever and why i'll never play another SOE game ever thta uses cash shop.
What happens is what the OP was eluding to,it gets more and more accepted,fanbois almost never cry foul they paint a happy picture no matter what a develoepr does to rip them off.This allows the dev to release their game in any state becuae they know their fanbois are crying for it.
So this leaves us with the ONLY fair value ,either a one time pay or a sub fee and again both can work but you NEED to be a SMART consumer.
Here is a couple exampels to look for>>>content and depth.Both these areas have tons to talk about but i'll just tal kvaguely to save time.
Game A one time pay.Does the game have a full feature set?Wil lthe game instead release half a game and sell content that should be on release in xpacs?
Game B sub fee.Nothing changes here even though it is a sub fee you should determine if the game is releasing a full feature game or holding back content to sell you the rest of the game in xpacs.
I think 90% of the gamers SHOULD realize what a full feature set is and many should know what a developer is capable of doing without buying into all their excuses.That is what it comes down to,if you pay and support anything the dev sells you,then you make for poor game developement because the dev is more than happy to take your money for half an effort.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
As many games already feature box + subscription + cash shop, most prominently WoW, GW2 won't blur any line regarding this.
Ironically enough, in may games turned F2P, a subscription is what is P2W, as former or current subscribers recieve stuff you can not get without. Even if you can get it without, if even a purely cosmectic item is P2W, a model like DDO has, the subscription could be seen as automatized cash shop.
Somehow, a subscription makes everything okay, no matter what is featured in the shop or what you get for subscribing (see DDO). If you pay $60 once and you can play until the severs shut down, the cash shop is an issue, but if you have to pay $15 a month or you can not play at all, it's okay to make people grind if they don't pay, or to offer benefits you can not get without paying? It's okay to have paid hundreds to thousand(s) of dollar over the years, and still having to buy the newest mount or pet from the shop?
Can someone explain to me why a subscription makes everything okay, but paying once and never again if you don't want to makes everything P2W?
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
cuz of PvP brahh.... oh wait *cough* nevermind
Really?
How many times have the developers stated that the cash shop will offer cosmetic and convenience items and why is it hard to believe this? Yes, of couse, the developers want to create another revenue stream with a cash shop.
But they also want to create a relationship with the customer that does not feel exploitive because in a year, they're going to have an expansion to sell you for $40 (approx) and they want you to buy this. This is what they have done with GW1.
Now of course, they could alienate their entire community and start selling DLC throught the cash shop; they could go back on their word and start selling clear P2W items to the same effect, but does this make good business sense?
From information available so far, the ONLY in-game reminder that there is a cash shop are the locked boxes that drop from mobs. Keys do drop as well, but if you want that box open right then and there, you need to buy a key from the cash shop. I do not support this feature and won't be using it if it goes live.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
i agree with this 100% - so many games that have gone free 2 play still have there *gold memberships* which you pay a sub and get ultimate pay 2 win model - at least guild wars 2 doesnt spit in your face in this regard, everything available on the cash shop is available in game aswel if you cant find it in game buy gems and get it off the cash shop, you still dont have to spend money to buy off the cash shop in Gw2 invest some time, farm some gold buy some gems get your item...
here's to hoping that arena net opens up expansions of the cash shop, making the expansions available via gems and hopefully opening up a bigger market to players allowing them to attain expansion packs due to dedication of playing.
i bought the collectors edition $200AU and i dont regret it one bit.. the only thing i regret is having to wait for my rytlok statue and art books, would have been nice to drool over them while waiting