Doesn't seem like you grasp the idea of a sandbox. It's never been about maxing out your character, it's about the overlooming narative of the game. This is written by the actions other people in the game are making. That's the point of a sandbox, the interactions between players. It's not about maxing out your character.
Ah, the blessing and the curse of sandbox games.
My definition of sandbox game: a narrative based game that has no accessible narrative until you become socially important. Or you can make stuff.
Originally posted by Torik In practical terms I view a game's 'endgame' as the aspect of the game that the devs promote over any others once a game has matured. It is the are of the game that the devs want to funnel the players into due to 'vision' or simply because it is the most cost-efficient area to develop content for. For WoW the raids are the endgame that's the only real area that Blizzard develops stuff for after an expansion has come out. For pre-NGE SWG the endgame was supposed to be the Galactic Civil War but got switched over to the Jedi holo grind. For A Tale in the Desert the endgame is completing the tests once the population is done researching the technologies. For EVE the endgame for most of its history was the 0.0 wars but lately it has been diversifing into wormholes and faction PvP.
Erm, no.
WoW adds content for max levels because that is where the game leads you by design - it is based on linear progression.
Nothing like that applies in EVE. 0.0 in EVE is not an endgame by any means. Null sec and High sec are both are equal parts of the game, there is no determined progression between those two.
You can spend your whole game time in one or another, or migrate between those two. There is no design leads making you follow any determined way.
WoW expands vertically - it adds content along progression line. EVE on the other hand expands horizontally - it adds stuff you can do any time.
Likewise there is no endgame in a Sandbox game, it is open ended gameplay.
The best way to understand it is to experience it.
Some people believe their deity gives them a cheat code for eternal life.
The rest of us will become player housing for worms.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
surely sandbox endgame is the point you grow bored of doing whatever it is you are doing. Or maybe another game catches your eye that you think you might enjoy even more so you change games. There that's endgame for you for the sandbox you are playing currently. Never really THOUGHT about endgame in a sandbox, what's the point? There is no win or lose.
Ina good sandbox getting tired of what you've been doing isn't the end. A good sandbox will offer other paths that you can take to play a completely different way than you did before. If you've grown tired of killing all the creatures in the game then switch over to crafting. A good sandbox game offers alternative playstyles. Now if you just get bored at a point with any game I don't think that it is the games fault, but something in your own personality. You may just want something different.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
What could be added to EVE that doesn't involve the neverending struggle for domination and power between alliances that would make it an even greater MMO? That's the question I'm asking.
More cooperative PvE content that is cut off from PvP.
As long as EVE allows PvP to happen everywhere, it will be limited to 'the neverending struggle for domination and power'. People who just want to create stuff are not going to be inclined to play a game where all you accomplished can be destroyed by someone who is merely better at PvP combat.
EVE could add features where you can build entire civilizations in space but there is little point where this will just be ground down to nothing by bored PvPers.
Judging by the amount of commerce that goes on in Eve, you are completely wrong. And no, without the "neverending struggle for domination" the Eve economy (and game as a whole) could not work.
Everyone wants the good facets of Eve but is never willing to accept the consequences of what must come with it.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
In practical terms I view a game's 'endgame' as the aspect of the game that the devs promote over any others once a game has matured. It is the are of the game that the devs want to funnel the players into due to 'vision' or simply because it is the most cost-efficient area to develop content for.
For WoW the raids are the endgame that's the only real area that Blizzard develops stuff for after an expansion has come out. For pre-NGE SWG the endgame was supposed to be the Galactic Civil War but got switched over to the Jedi holo grind. For A Tale in the Desert the endgame is completing the tests once the population is done researching the technologies. For EVE the endgame for most of its history was the 0.0 wars but lately it has been diversifing into wormholes and faction PvP.
Erm, no.
WoW adds content for max levels because that is where the game leads you by design - it is based on linear progression.
Nothing like that applies in EVE. 0.0 in EVE is not an endgame by any means. Null sec and High sec are both are equal parts of the game, there is no determined progression between those two.
You can spend your whole game time in one or another, or migrate between those two. There is no design leads making you follow any determined way.
WoW expands vertically - it adds content along progression line. EVE on the other hand expands horizontally - it adds stuff you can do any time.
That only really applies to the PvP stuff. The PvE stuff has short progression paths that lead out of empire space into low sec or null sec space. If you want to mine the rarer asteroids, you need to leave empire space and go into unrestricted PvP territory. Same goes for mission running and NPC pirate farming. Only crafting and trading can be fully contained in empire space. PvP and crafting get the bulk of the dev's attention and the other activities are ignored for years.
Ultima Online back around 2000 had what was never endgame. Youd have multiple characters each with different professions/ and or playstyle. Increase your wealth, resource gather and crafting to re-supply your vendor that you gave out 500 runes so people would keep coming back. Save up money to buy a tower instead of the small 1 room house you had. Or buy a boat and go fishing the sea's for treasure maps and message in a bottles. There was never end game, it was more on community and building a niche in an online world.
Ultima Online back then was probably the best MMO experience ive ever had.
Not sure if the OP undestands sandbox. Anyway, with UO stil being regarded as probably the best sandbox I'll give you an idea of what my days were like during those times back in 99/00. It's likely what you would see/end up doing in a sandbox nowadays. It's not about end, it's not about max, it's about "living" and creating a..let's say..name for yourself throughout your server really any way you want.
This could be done by being a huge trader, crafter, PvPer, a lot of RPers were respected on my server at the time (Catskills), and a lot of people just let them do their own thing.
Log in
Farm if you wish.
Craft if you wish.
Run around doing PvP (which I did) all day.
Get bored? Decorate your house, organize it.
Make stuff for your guild (remember, you lost stuff then)
Increase your wealth to buy a tower or castle, which were awesome.
Run around looking for houses about to fall (didn't open your house for a while, your house would rot - banned, lost interest, things like that)
Run around finding better locations for houses (next to mines, dungeons, etc)
If you haven't had your house looted in an MMO you haven't lived ;p
I don't know..you get the idea. It probably looks the same on paper compared to themepark, I'd say you have to play to get a real idea of how it works. I knew plenty of people who simply crafted and sat around Britannia all day..for years. Back then though people were more open and inclined to sit around and BS a little bit.
People actually had like guild meetings in game, ceremonies, sandbox game are very geared towards social interaction. I spent some days just sitting around talking it up with guild members and stuff. Supplying your guild alone could be a full time job in game if PvP wasn't your thing. Most of the people who were wealthy were the crafters and the large guilds.
Funny thing about UO? There were probably like 25 dyable pieces of armor (leather, plate, chain) and not a ton of different looking helms, but enough. The point was though even with a simple dye system nobody really looked a like for the most part.
POLITICS - Politics were huge in UO and I would only imagine just as much in current gen. So much backstabbing/lying going on. Good times.
These are just a few ideas. Almost none of them are new, but some of them are fondly remembered features from other MMORPGs, some "sandbox", some not.
I think there are a lot of ideas that a good "sandbox" MMORPG could borrow from other games, and still be highly favored by the gaming community.
EVE has, or has had, all of these.
Sorry for the reiteration. I noticed a couple of people quoted this with the "EVE has, or has had, all of these." I don't think they read the conclusion to my post, so just pointing out that I had already mentioned that these were "fondly remembered features" from other MMO's.
Originally posted by TorikOnly crafting and trading can be fully contained in empire space.
Wrong, false assumption.
As said before, there is no need to leave empire space ever if you do not wish to and you can enjoy the game as much as someone living exclusively in Null sec space.
You are really stuck in linear progression mindset.
"Other activities" ignored for years, focused on PVP only? Funny that the source of the riots from last summer were complains just about the opposite - little love for pew-pew and CCP caring to fluff and carebears only...
There were Incursions and WiS added last year, before it there was whole exploration rework, new exploration sites and missions were added, epic arcs, agent finders, tutorials reworked, etc. etc. etc.
I encourage you to hit a trial of EVE Online and get first hand knowledge about the game rather than making vain assumptions...
Sort of. I'm using the term as the point where you can no longer advance your character, and any further increase of your wealth, guild size would just be obscene. Or if you don't care about accumulating wealth, the point where you've met your character advancement goals. Something like that.
In a sandbox you can lose everything, so it's always about maintaining a healthy margin against the lean times to come. The largest alliances crash the hardest. In a themepark you advance in level and gear and cash and each only goes up.
Sort of. I'm using the term as the point where you can no longer advance your character, and any further increase of your wealth, guild size would just be obscene. Or if you don't care about accumulating wealth, the point where you've met your character advancement goals. Something like that.
In a sandbox you can lose everything, so it's always about maintaining a healthy margin against the lean times to come. The largest alliances crash the hardest. In a themepark you advance in level and gear and cash and each only goes up.
Going up is good. Progression is fun. If i want to maintain status quo, i come back to real life.
Sort of. I'm using the term as the point where you can no longer advance your character, and any further increase of your wealth, guild size would just be obscene. Or if you don't care about accumulating wealth, the point where you've met your character advancement goals. Something like that.
In a sandbox you can lose everything, so it's always about maintaining a healthy margin against the lean times to come. The largest alliances crash the hardest. In a themepark you advance in level and gear and cash and each only goes up.
Going up is good. Progression is fun. If i want to maintain status quo, i come back to real life.
Sandbox endgame is partaking in and enjoying the continually evolving story of your server (world).
Cities built and razed, alliances forged and broken, who becomes infamous, who is heralded as a hero (for a while), the constant competition of established vs up and coming entrepreneurs, carving your own plot of land and protecting it.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Sandbox endgame is partaking in and enjoying the continually evolving story of your server (world).Cities built and razed, alliances forged and broken, who becomes infamous, who is heralded as a hero (for a while), the constant competition of established vs up and coming entrepreneurs, carving your own plot of land and protecting it.
You are not listening Danny, it's only fun if the numbers only ever go up and there is no risk of failure.
Sandbox endgame is partaking in and enjoying the continually evolving story of your server (world).
Cities built and razed, alliances forged and broken, who becomes infamous, who is heralded as a hero (for a while), the constant competition of established vs up and coming entrepreneurs, carving your own plot of land and protecting it.
You are not listening Danny, it's only fun if the numbers only ever go up and there is no risk of failure.
Losing was deemed a time sink and removed from mmorpg's. Welcome to the happy place.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
You are not listening Danny, it's only fun if the numbers only ever go up and there is no risk of failure.
Losing was deemed a time sink and removed from mmorpg's. Welcome to the happy place.
Enjoying a sandbox is an exclusive ordeal, and I think that elitist mockery of non-sandbox games is very short sighted. Also, MMORPGs (sandbox and themepark) are usually about intentionally adding time sinks to waste players time, not removing them. That's what a large number of players want (and I hate what these players have done to the genre). Losing was deemed something that stops people from playing, not as a time sink.
However, regardless of the game model, this is true. Without failure, success is meaningless. Modern games such as Dark Souls, is re-teaching the gaming community this lesson. Hopefully we'll see that move onto mmorpgs as well.
Of course, if you build a game based entirely on progression, then success means playing for a long time. Playing for a long team means lots of money for a subscription model.
In a TP, the world is already built. You just get to go play in it. You can't do anything in the world tha thas any persistence so the ONLY focus you have is on building your own character.
In a SB you build your character but at Cap, you are probably done. Gear is not typically the overall deciding factor since the most desireable gear should be crafted by players. So, the game should be a self sustaining world to continue to build from. Such as crafts, cities and housing, services. Services can be anything that you can do better than someone else can do for themselves. In AO, there were Orgs (guilds) that would run loot services. Paid raiding. I personally have mixed feelings about it, but the point is, you can be very createive. There are means available for combat classes to earn a living.
BTW, one thing I haven't seen in a SB is Market based PVP. Yeah, ok, so some combat class comes along and PWNS and loots your merchant/crafter class. But what if your could launch an economic strike against the other player where you could use politics and strategies to outmanuver players in the market places, "Steal" his shop merchandise. Acess some of his funds from his bank.
The one drawback in SB's is that PVP favores combat classes. Ahh well.
Originally posted by RefMinor Originally posted by DannyGloverSandbox endgame is partaking in and enjoying the continually evolving story of your server (world).Cities built and razed, alliances forged and broken, who becomes infamous, who is heralded as a hero (for a while), the constant competition of established vs up and coming entrepreneurs, carving your own plot of land and protecting it.
You are not listening Danny, it's only fun if the numbers only ever go up and there is no risk of failure.
Oh yeah. Is that why I'm having such a blast in all these new mmos these days? lol
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Comments
Ah, the blessing and the curse of sandbox games.
My definition of sandbox game: a narrative based game that has no accessible narrative until you become socially important. Or you can make stuff.
Erm, no.
WoW adds content for max levels because that is where the game leads you by design - it is based on linear progression.
Nothing like that applies in EVE. 0.0 in EVE is not an endgame by any means. Null sec and High sec are both are equal parts of the game, there is no determined progression between those two.
You can spend your whole game time in one or another, or migrate between those two. There is no design leads making you follow any determined way.
WoW expands vertically - it adds content along progression line. EVE on the other hand expands horizontally - it adds stuff you can do any time.
Some people believe their deity gives them a cheat code for eternal life.
The rest of us will become player housing for worms.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Ina good sandbox getting tired of what you've been doing isn't the end. A good sandbox will offer other paths that you can take to play a completely different way than you did before. If you've grown tired of killing all the creatures in the game then switch over to crafting. A good sandbox game offers alternative playstyles. Now if you just get bored at a point with any game I don't think that it is the games fault, but something in your own personality. You may just want something different.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Judging by the amount of commerce that goes on in Eve, you are completely wrong. And no, without the "neverending struggle for domination" the Eve economy (and game as a whole) could not work.
Everyone wants the good facets of Eve but is never willing to accept the consequences of what must come with it.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
That only really applies to the PvP stuff. The PvE stuff has short progression paths that lead out of empire space into low sec or null sec space. If you want to mine the rarer asteroids, you need to leave empire space and go into unrestricted PvP territory. Same goes for mission running and NPC pirate farming. Only crafting and trading can be fully contained in empire space. PvP and crafting get the bulk of the dev's attention and the other activities are ignored for years.
Ultima Online back around 2000 had what was never endgame. Youd have multiple characters each with different professions/ and or playstyle. Increase your wealth, resource gather and crafting to re-supply your vendor that you gave out 500 runes so people would keep coming back. Save up money to buy a tower instead of the small 1 room house you had. Or buy a boat and go fishing the sea's for treasure maps and message in a bottles. There was never end game, it was more on community and building a niche in an online world.
Ultima Online back then was probably the best MMO experience ive ever had.
Not sure if the OP undestands sandbox. Anyway, with UO stil being regarded as probably the best sandbox I'll give you an idea of what my days were like during those times back in 99/00. It's likely what you would see/end up doing in a sandbox nowadays. It's not about end, it's not about max, it's about "living" and creating a..let's say..name for yourself throughout your server really any way you want.
This could be done by being a huge trader, crafter, PvPer, a lot of RPers were respected on my server at the time (Catskills), and a lot of people just let them do their own thing.
Log in
Farm if you wish.
Craft if you wish.
Run around doing PvP (which I did) all day.
Get bored? Decorate your house, organize it.
Make stuff for your guild (remember, you lost stuff then)
Increase your wealth to buy a tower or castle, which were awesome.
Run around looking for houses about to fall (didn't open your house for a while, your house would rot - banned, lost interest, things like that)
Run around finding better locations for houses (next to mines, dungeons, etc)
If you haven't had your house looted in an MMO you haven't lived ;p
I don't know..you get the idea. It probably looks the same on paper compared to themepark, I'd say you have to play to get a real idea of how it works. I knew plenty of people who simply crafted and sat around Britannia all day..for years. Back then though people were more open and inclined to sit around and BS a little bit.
People actually had like guild meetings in game, ceremonies, sandbox game are very geared towards social interaction. I spent some days just sitting around talking it up with guild members and stuff. Supplying your guild alone could be a full time job in game if PvP wasn't your thing. Most of the people who were wealthy were the crafters and the large guilds.
Funny thing about UO? There were probably like 25 dyable pieces of armor (leather, plate, chain) and not a ton of different looking helms, but enough. The point was though even with a simple dye system nobody really looked a like for the most part.
POLITICS - Politics were huge in UO and I would only imagine just as much in current gen. So much backstabbing/lying going on. Good times.
Sorry for the reiteration. I noticed a couple of people quoted this with the "EVE has, or has had, all of these." I don't think they read the conclusion to my post, so just pointing out that I had already mentioned that these were "fondly remembered features" from other MMO's.
Wrong, false assumption.
As said before, there is no need to leave empire space ever if you do not wish to and you can enjoy the game as much as someone living exclusively in Null sec space.
You are really stuck in linear progression mindset.
"Other activities" ignored for years, focused on PVP only? Funny that the source of the riots from last summer were complains just about the opposite - little love for pew-pew and CCP caring to fluff and carebears only...
There were Incursions and WiS added last year, before it there was whole exploration rework, new exploration sites and missions were added, epic arcs, agent finders, tutorials reworked, etc. etc. etc.
I encourage you to hit a trial of EVE Online and get first hand knowledge about the game rather than making vain assumptions...
Sort of. I'm using the term as the point where you can no longer advance your character, and any further increase of your wealth, guild size would just be obscene. Or if you don't care about accumulating wealth, the point where you've met your character advancement goals. Something like that.
In a sandbox you can lose everything, so it's always about maintaining a healthy margin against the lean times to come. The largest alliances crash the hardest. In a themepark you advance in level and gear and cash and each only goes up.Going up is good. Progression is fun. If i want to maintain status quo, i come back to real life.
Sort of. I'm using the term as the point where you can no longer advance your character, and any further increase of your wealth, guild size would just be obscene. Or if you don't care about accumulating wealth, the point where you've met your character advancement goals. Something like that.
In a sandbox you can lose everything, so it's always about maintaining a healthy margin against the lean times to come. The largest alliances crash the hardest. In a themepark you advance in level and gear and cash and each only goes up.Going up is good. Progression is fun. If i want to maintain status quo, i come back to real life.
Well done, have a starSandbox endgame is partaking in and enjoying the continually evolving story of your server (world).
Cities built and razed, alliances forged and broken, who becomes infamous, who is heralded as a hero (for a while), the constant competition of established vs up and coming entrepreneurs, carving your own plot of land and protecting it.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
You are not listening Danny, it's only fun if the numbers only ever go up and there is no risk of failure.Losing was deemed a time sink and removed from mmorpg's. Welcome to the happy place.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Enjoying a sandbox is an exclusive ordeal, and I think that elitist mockery of non-sandbox games is very short sighted. Also, MMORPGs (sandbox and themepark) are usually about intentionally adding time sinks to waste players time, not removing them. That's what a large number of players want (and I hate what these players have done to the genre). Losing was deemed something that stops people from playing, not as a time sink.
However, regardless of the game model, this is true. Without failure, success is meaningless. Modern games such as Dark Souls, is re-teaching the gaming community this lesson. Hopefully we'll see that move onto mmorpgs as well.
Of course, if you build a game based entirely on progression, then success means playing for a long time. Playing for a long team means lots of money for a subscription model.
There is no "endgame" in a sandbox.
The main difference between TP and SB is this.
In a TP, the world is already built. You just get to go play in it. You can't do anything in the world tha thas any persistence so the ONLY focus you have is on building your own character.
In a SB you build your character but at Cap, you are probably done. Gear is not typically the overall deciding factor since the most desireable gear should be crafted by players. So, the game should be a self sustaining world to continue to build from. Such as crafts, cities and housing, services. Services can be anything that you can do better than someone else can do for themselves. In AO, there were Orgs (guilds) that would run loot services. Paid raiding. I personally have mixed feelings about it, but the point is, you can be very createive. There are means available for combat classes to earn a living.
BTW, one thing I haven't seen in a SB is Market based PVP. Yeah, ok, so some combat class comes along and PWNS and loots your merchant/crafter class. But what if your could launch an economic strike against the other player where you could use politics and strategies to outmanuver players in the market places, "Steal" his shop merchandise. Acess some of his funds from his bank.
The one drawback in SB's is that PVP favores combat classes. Ahh well.
In short TP=Build your toon, SB=build your world.
You are not listening Danny, it's only fun if the numbers only ever go up and there is no risk of failure.
Oh yeah. Is that why I'm having such a blast in all these new mmos these days? lol
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.