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Tera "Sandboxy"? And Q: about pvp....

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  • bishboshbishbosh Member Posts: 388

    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    Originally posted by bishbosh


    Originally posted by bishbosh

    how is tera even close to being a sandbox?

     

    -there is no player economy economy because items and bound and do not break/decay

    -crafting is pointless because the best items can be attained through killing stuff. 

    -classes are fixed and there isnt even any talent/skill trees

    -leveling is a linear quest grind

    -dungeon finder does 

    - instances and battlegrounds

    - global auction house

    - politcal system will allow people to control cities. this is a sandbox feature but it wont really fit the game since there is no player economy. setting taxes on NPC vendors isnt really that sandbox. NPC vendors isnt something your really want to see much of in a sandbox in the first place.

     

    sandbox games allow you to change the world and give you lots of freedome

    - you can capture cities, rent out shop space, charge people to use the forge

    - you can build your character however you want? you can even make a archer that heals and summons skeletons

    - the best items can be crafted by players. items should eventually break to prevent inflation and bound items shouldnt exist.

    - you cant have a global auction house. regional pricing makes for an interesting economy and allows people to run business in many different ways eg.had to haul a cart full of dragon scales all the across the map because there is no dragons in derpville,ofc you will charge extra, you are the only seller of dragon scales in derpville.

    -you shouldnt have instances. or if you do have instances, items should not be dropped. resource should be not be attained without any risk/competition. sandbox games are about you affecting the world. farming wolves for wolf hide? well then the amount of wolves will be reduced for a period of time.

     

    Why shouldn't there be instances in a 'sandbox' game? Why shouldn't items be dropped? The whole farming wolves for wolf hide and the amount of wolves reduced for a period of time is stupid, we're playing a game, not the sims.

    you can have the freedom of choice to build a character the way you want still be in a themepark setting without it automatically being labeled as a sandbox core theme.

    the best items being crafted by players, whats the difference between that and the best items dropping from a boss?

    items should eventually break you say, meaning no matter even if you repair, eventually its gonna break? thats just....

     

    hey i just listed common features in sandbox games. like it or not they are still sandbox features.

    instances generally should not be in a sandbox game because when you are in an instance you only affect that instance rather than the persistent world. this goes against whole idea of a sandbox.

    sandbox games pretty much all give you the choice to build your character however you want to, the only themepark i can think of that comes close to doing this is RIFT. this is why it is "automatically being labbeed as a sandbox core theme". if themepark devs start giving players freedom when building characters then things might change.

    sandbox games try to give players more freedom, they can be crafters or traders or warriors w/e they want. in order for crafting to be useful, crafted items should be as strong as dropped items. ideally you want majority of items to be crafted with a couple of drops. ofcourse gathering the materials to craft strong items will require you to kill hard bosses etc. crafting is immersive; dragons do not carry swords and shield, instead you pick up the scales and bones and make armor/weapons.

    if items dont break then there will be inflation and no reason to kill monsters/ harvest materials. gear isnt as hard to attain as themepark mmorpgs and it isnt that big of a deal. so item decay isnt much of an issue, you just make more gear when old stuff breaks. 

     

    all off this must be pretty hard to swallow, but thats sandbox mmorpgs for you. if you havent played one (or cannot imagine what it would be like) it can seem a bit weird.

  • bishboshbishbosh Member Posts: 388

    woops 2x post

  • MoonBeansMoonBeans Member Posts: 173

    Originally posted by Kehdar

    Tera isn't a sandbox in any way. It's pure themepark.

    I read that comment too, unfortunately the poster, once in the the first city, skipped all the quests sending him to the next area, and instead of flying a pegasus to the next area leave the city from the main door.

    The area surrounding the city is quite empty, no mobs or quests so he read this as a sign of a sandbox game.

    the empty areas around the city are meant to be that way.    ever heard of Tera monster invasion events?  well guess what1  that s where they take place.

    they are basically a battlefield.  where monsters and players fight, in order to protect the city.

     

    there are several door gates in the city.  west and north.  both paths takes you to totally different areas.  you can explore the whole continent without a single loading screen.

    there is plenty of variety among the quests.  there are collect quests,  tons of kill monster quests,  escort quests,  story quests with cool scenes.  repeatable quests.

  • otacuotacu Member UncommonPosts: 547

    This thread is sooo wierd.

    How is Tera even close to being a Sandbox??? 

    It's not! Not even close. It's a pure themepark as Kehdar said.

     

    Want a sandbox? Play Ultima Online, Eve, Darkfall, Mortal Online, and ..... Archeage

    THIS IS A SANDBOX

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQgXHh0v5TE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1p1os9-L7A

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiOeGy4h60Y

    Tera is not even close to being a sandbox

     

  • KehdarKehdar Member UncommonPosts: 441

    Originally posted by MoonBeans

    Originally posted by Kehdar

    Tera isn't a sandbox in any way. It's pure themepark.

    I read that comment too, unfortunately the poster, once in the the first city, skipped all the quests sending him to the next area, and instead of flying a pegasus to the next area leave the city from the main door.

    The area surrounding the city is quite empty, no mobs or quests so he read this as a sign of a sandbox game.

    the empty areas around the city are meant to be that way.    ever heard of Tera monster invasion events?  well guess what1  that s where they take place.

    they are basically a battlefield.  where monsters and players fight, in order to protect the city.

     

    there are several door gates in the city.  west and north.  both paths takes you to totally different areas.  you can explore the whole continent without a single loading screen.

    there is plenty of variety among the quests.  there are collect quests,  tons of kill monster quests,  escort quests,  story quests with cool scenes.  repeatable quests.

     

    I'm perfectly aware of the purpose of the area near the city, i was just pointing out that it's not empty cause Tera is a sandbox game.

  • BanquettoBanquetto Member UncommonPosts: 1,037

    The only reason anyone is even talking about this is quite simple.


    The accepted wisdom on the mmorpg.com forums is that sandboxes are great, and themeparks suck.


    Therefore, a number of people who post here feel the need to define any game they like as being a sandbox, as inaccurate as that may be. Themeparks suck, I like this game, therefore it cannot possibly be a themepark, therefore it must be a sandbox.


    Get over it. Even if you prefer sandboxes, it's OK to admit that you actually like a good themepark. The only people who will hold it against you are dilettantes and wankers.

  • jazz.bejazz.be Member UncommonPosts: 962

    It's weird but people tend to believe that the defenition "sandbox" in the gaming context was invented before the games were actually released.

    I don't think there is such a clear definition on what kind of concrete and developed elements a sandbox game has to contain (Extremely deep crafting system for example)

    Instead I believe sandbox described the feeling of freedom in the game, the fact that you don't play an achievement based game where you're being sucked into a scripted sequence of events.

    How free is free? That is very much debatble, but not really relevent because from the moment you start doing stuff that is not completely scripted, I believe you're doing a little bit of sandboxing :-)

    Just because in Tetris you were stuck in the rectangle and stuck with 4 or 5 movements doesn't mean it wasn't a videogame.

  • TeekayTeekay Member Posts: 94

    This is not a sandbox game.

    It's a themepark game.

    No two ways about it.

     

     

  • DerpybirdDerpybird Member Posts: 991

    Why is it imortant to try and portray Tera like a sandbox game or a themepark game with sandbox features? Is the perception that sandbox = good and themepark = bad, and therefore the more we portray Tera as sandbox the better?

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • KehdarKehdar Member UncommonPosts: 441

    Originally posted by jazz.be

    It's weird but people tend to believe that the defenition "sandbox" in the gaming context was invented before the games were actually released.

    I don't think there is such a clear definition on what kind of concrete and developed elements a sandbox game has to contain (Extremely deep crafting system for example)

    Instead I believe sandbox described the feeling of freedom in the game, the fact that you don't play an achievement based game where you're being sucked into a scripted sequence of events.

    How free is free? That is very much debatble, but not really relevent because from the moment you start doing stuff that is not completely scripted, I believe you're doing a little bit of sandboxing :-)

    Just because in Tetris you were stuck in the rectangle and stuck with 4 or 5 movements doesn't mean it wasn't a videogame.

    If i put you in jail, saying "Hey, staying in this room is exactly what I want!", doesn't make you free.

    You may like your cell but you aren't free.

  • jazz.bejazz.be Member UncommonPosts: 962

    Originally posted by Kehdar

    Originally posted by jazz.be

    It's weird but people tend to believe that the defenition "sandbox" in the gaming context was invented before the games were actually released.

    I don't think there is such a clear definition on what kind of concrete and developed elements a sandbox game has to contain (Extremely deep crafting system for example)

    Instead I believe sandbox described the feeling of freedom in the game, the fact that you don't play an achievement based game where you're being sucked into a scripted sequence of events.

    How free is free? That is very much debatble, but not really relevent because from the moment you start doing stuff that is not completely scripted, I believe you're doing a little bit of sandboxing :-)

    Just because in Tetris you were stuck in the rectangle and stuck with 4 or 5 movements doesn't mean it wasn't a videogame.

    If i put you in jail, saying "Hey, staying in this room is exactly what I want!", doesn't make you free.

    You may like your cell but you aren't free.

    But even outside the cell you need money, for money you need to work, to work you need education and time and energy, for all that you need even more time. And by giving time you give your life, since time is life. And so you are a prisoner again, you may like your prison though, but you're still a prisoner. How free is that?

  • StarIStarI Member UncommonPosts: 987

    TERA sandbox-y? Don't make me laugh.

  • KehdarKehdar Member UncommonPosts: 441

    Originally posted by jazz.be

    Originally posted by Kehdar


    Originally posted by jazz.be

    It's weird but people tend to believe that the defenition "sandbox" in the gaming context was invented before the games were actually released.

    I don't think there is such a clear definition on what kind of concrete and developed elements a sandbox game has to contain (Extremely deep crafting system for example)

    Instead I believe sandbox described the feeling of freedom in the game, the fact that you don't play an achievement based game where you're being sucked into a scripted sequence of events.

    How free is free? That is very much debatble, but not really relevent because from the moment you start doing stuff that is not completely scripted, I believe you're doing a little bit of sandboxing :-)

    Just because in Tetris you were stuck in the rectangle and stuck with 4 or 5 movements doesn't mean it wasn't a videogame.

    If i put you in jail, saying "Hey, staying in this room is exactly what I want!", doesn't make you free.

    You may like your cell but you aren't free.

    But even outside the cell you need money, for money you need to work, to work you need education and time and energy, for all that you need even more time. And by giving time you give your life, since time is life. And so you are a prisoner again, you may like your prison though, but you're still a prisoner. How free is that?

     

    Yes and no, I can choose to go move to the jungle and live by hunting. 

    Back to MMORPGs in a lot of post about Tera i read players saying: "The combat of this game is great, and let's be honest combat is what you do 90% of the time in a MMORPG.". 

    That doesn't apply to a sandbox game, in UO I can play without even touching a sword or a spell or even kill a mobs. Same for EVE how many people on eve play only as merchants and hire mercenaries for protection.

     

     

  • TeekayTeekay Member Posts: 94

    Holy shit! Two things we've agreed on in two posts!

  • KehdarKehdar Member UncommonPosts: 441

    Originally posted by Teekay

    Holy shit! Two things we've agreed on in two posts!

    Impressive.

    But you know is 2012 the world is coming to an end and everything, you have to expect  some inexplicable facts.

  • haibanehaibane Member Posts: 178

    TERA is anything BUT a sandbox, it's nowhere near a sandbox, it hasn't been built to be one, and it ain't a sandbox at all :

    1) Sure u can grind but u'd level 4x faster by doing quests, and prolly 6x faster doing quests in a Group, so why bother ?

    2) U got 0 choice in character progression, u got ur class, u follow it, period. There isn't even an ability tree like in EQ2, WoW, RIFT, the only thing u can get are glyphs to modify ur abilities (cooldown, crit chance...) but u don't get any new ability that way.

    3) U got dungeons, instanced dungeons for every milestone that u MUST run if u want decent gear

    4) Last but not least, if u don't follow the story quest, u're pretty much screwed on gear (cf point 4, story quest guides u thru all dungeons and give u intermediate blue gear if u don't wanna grind the dungeons to have gold).

    So, no, EQ1 was like 1000x more a sandbox than TERA and that's the game that defined theme parks (and that got intellectually raped by wow in every possible way).

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  • KehdarKehdar Member UncommonPosts: 441

    Originally posted by haibane

     

    1) Sure u can grind but u'd level 4x faster by doing quests, and prolly 6x faster doing quests in a Group, so why bother ?

     

    Of course I agree with almost anything, is more or less what I said till now. 

    I just want to point out that what you said about quests is wrong. You don't level 4x faster by doing quest and you surelly don't level 6x faster by doing group quests.

    The exp you get from killing mobs is way more than the one you get from quests.

    Let's look at a lvl 38 BAMs quest, you have to kill 3 BAMs everyone is worth 240k exp if soloed, when you turn in the quest you'll get less than 100k. 

    So in the end you'll get 720k exp from the killing and 100k from the quest. 

     

  • otacuotacu Member UncommonPosts: 547

    Originally posted by jazz.be

     

    Instead I believe sandbox described the feeling of freedom in the game, the fact that you don't play an achievement based game where you're being sucked into a scripted sequence of events.

    That's YOUR definition of sandbox. Btw even World of Warcraft is a sandbox by your loose "definition". Why not? some people feel freedom in the game... they can do quests... they can do battlegrounds... they can grind mobs.... they can explore the world however they want.

     

    Freedom of speech is nice thing. 

    Everyone has his opinions.

    But when we start calling Tera a sandbox it's crossing the line. 

    Even the korean developers of Bluehole Studios would not dare to call Tera a sandbox game. In fact they would laugh out loudly at everyone claiming it is.

     

    For some games the definition could be debatable as they could be borderline. But not TERA.

    TERA is a 100% Themepark

     

    We have classes, we have levels, we have quests, we have geargrind, we have an instanced dungeons endgame, we have battlegrounds...... we don't have a solid ingame economy, we don't have an extensive crafting, we cannot modify the world around us, we cannot build houses, castles, trees, ships, the owpvp is primitive "just for fun", there is no territorial conquest....

    There is absolutely nothing sandbox about Tera.

    Just because there is a so called "political system" someone is going delusional. It's a marketing scam. The "political system" is simple and primitive... you vote every two weeks or you fight in instanced battlegrounds to be elected Vanarch and change few things around. Where is the freedom there? you have to vote every 2 weeks... why 2 weeks? why not every month or every year. How about never and it's a monarchy? why fighting in instanced bgs and not fight to conquer a castle? why can't a region declare war on another region?

    Because even the "political system" is just a themepark feature in Tera. 

     

    Go and read the features of Archeage and learn what a sandbox is.

    WOW, Guild Wars 2, Tera, Rift, Swtor, Aion, AoC etc. are not sandbox games.

  • jazz.bejazz.be Member UncommonPosts: 962

    Originally posted by Kehdar

    Originally posted by jazz.be


    Originally posted by Kehdar


    Originally posted by jazz.be

    It's weird but people tend to believe that the defenition "sandbox" in the gaming context was invented before the games were actually released.

    I don't think there is such a clear definition on what kind of concrete and developed elements a sandbox game has to contain (Extremely deep crafting system for example)

    Instead I believe sandbox described the feeling of freedom in the game, the fact that you don't play an achievement based game where you're being sucked into a scripted sequence of events.

    How free is free? That is very much debatble, but not really relevent because from the moment you start doing stuff that is not completely scripted, I believe you're doing a little bit of sandboxing :-)

    Just because in Tetris you were stuck in the rectangle and stuck with 4 or 5 movements doesn't mean it wasn't a videogame.

    If i put you in jail, saying "Hey, staying in this room is exactly what I want!", doesn't make you free.

    You may like your cell but you aren't free.

    But even outside the cell you need money, for money you need to work, to work you need education and time and energy, for all that you need even more time. And by giving time you give your life, since time is life. And so you are a prisoner again, you may like your prison though, but you're still a prisoner. How free is that?

     

    Yes and no, I can choose to go move to the jungle and live by hunting. 

    Back to MMORPGs in a lot of post about Tera i read players saying: "The combat of this game is great, and let's be honest combat is what you do 90% of the time in a MMORPG.". 

    That doesn't apply to a sandbox game, in UO I can play without even touching a sword or a spell or even kill a mobs. Same for EVE how many people on eve play only as merchants and hire mercenaries for protection.

     

     

    Yes Tera  seems to be very combat centric, which is a step away from sandbox. It's actually a step away from an mmoRPG.

    That doesn't make it an action game though. We can make a whole story of that to if we really want to. An MMORPG is suposed to have a lot of RPG elements in it. And the typical RPG element is playing your character in a way that it almost becomes a simulation. Tera kind of fails in that.

    But ok, Imagine someone playing EvE mostly for the combat and social aspect. You know, corporation politics.

    Will Tera be that much less sandbox with GvG and political system? Assuming the political system will give a social boost in the game and that it will become a main aspect.

     

    I'm not sure if "that much less" is proper English so forgive me the confusion.

  • jazz.bejazz.be Member UncommonPosts: 962

    Originally posted by otacu

    Originally posted by jazz.be

     

    Instead I believe sandbox described the feeling of freedom in the game, the fact that you don't play an achievement based game where you're being sucked into a scripted sequence of events.

    That's YOUR definition of sandbox. Btw even World of Warcraft is a sandbox by your loose "definition". Why not? some people feel freedom in the game... they can do quests... they can do battlegrounds... they can grind mobs.... they can explore the world however they want.

     

    Freedom of speech is nice thing. 

    Everyone has his opinions.

    But when we start calling Tera a sandbox it's crossing the line. 

    Even the korean developers of Bluehole Studios would not dare to call Tera a sandbox game. In fact they would laugh out loudly at everyone claiming it is.

    I didn't say Tera is a sandbox game. OP didn't say it's a sandbox game. Actually I think nobody said it's a sandbox game.

    OP threw out the idea of Tera being sandboxy or not. That's different.

    I'm just saying that orange or pink contains some red.

    But you're right, a lot of MMORPG's may contain sandbox elements to some extend.

    I just find it wrong to use previous games as reference and assume all the implemented features from that game needs to be in a sandbox game. I think the meaning behind those features are more important.

    I would even go further, it would be great to have a game that completely supports both, themepark and sandbox! Not sure how that would work out though I admit, because a game is not only content. A game is also the community.

     

  • KehdarKehdar Member UncommonPosts: 441

    Originally posted by jazz.be

     

    Yes Tera  seems to be very combat centric, which is a step away from sandbox. It's actually a step away from an mmoRPG.

    That doesn't make it an action game though. We can make a whole story of that to if we really want to. An MMORPG is suposed to have a lot of RPG elements in it. And the typical RPG element is playing your character in a way that it almost becomes a simulation. Tera kind of fails in that.

    But ok, Imagine someone playing EvE mostly for the combat and social aspect. You know, corporation politics.

    Will Tera be that much less sandbox with GvG and political system? Assuming the political system will give a social boost in the game and that it will become a main aspect.

     

    I'm not sure if "that much less" is proper English so forgive me the confusion.

     

    Yea well, the RPG part was gone as soon as games left pen and paper to go digital :p

    I understand what you mean, but the point is even if GvG can give you some elements of "freedon" in making your story, it's really a small portion of the game and you'll still need to farm istances to build your equip.

    The political system sounds cool, but we have to wait and see how it is implemented.

     

    Another important aspect of a sandbox game imo is the persistent world. Tera has no persistent world nor any other themepark.

     

    What i mean is, is enough to have just an half aspect of a sandbox to be sandboxy? Cause the only things that remind a sandbox game is OWPVP/Politic and only superficially.

  • otacuotacu Member UncommonPosts: 547

    Is the same. I quoted you when you talked about your loose definition of  "sandbox".

    Fine but Tera isn't even close, isn't even "sandboxy".

    What's "sandboxy" about Tera? The political system and gvg? for real?

    The Tera political system (meaning as implemented and working in Tera) is a themepark feature.

     

    And you don't usually go around calling a game sandboxy when you have 99% themepark and 1% sandboxy elements.

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