an MMO like Morrowind

Mikesta707 · August 2005

I dont kno if anyone has ever played morrowind or any other game in the Elder Scrolls series, but for those of u who havent, it is a very open, do what you want game where you can do almost anything and be almost anything. I was wondering if an MMO could be like that, like extremely open you can kill anyone in the town and if you kill them they are dead forever. if someone kills u either die forever or loose everything u had. Can someone tell me if this is a good idea or if it is terribly bad

~Mike~

LILLIPPA328 · August 2005

Well,for starters,thats not really possible.....b/c the people in the game are actual people....and the people that arnt really players,are NPC's,most which cant die,or are vendors,priest,people who give quest,ect.....so thats not really possible,but open ended games,where theres plenty of freedom,most MMORPG's are like that...Dark Age of Camelot,Asherons Call,Everquest,Final Fantasy XI,Lineage 2,SW Galaxies,Ultima Online,and WoW are all good choices that do a good job of freedom.....options to PvP,be a merchant,crafter,trade,theres always somthin to do in a good mmorpg....

Rikimaru_X · August 2005

I love TES games, but you know darn well there will be no such MMO like Morrowind. Take some time to think about that....

EDIT

Let me break it down for ya in one of my older post:

-----------------

It won't happen becuase it wouldn't be The Elder Scrolls, and let me explain why:

Online multiplyer won't work, becuase almost all the features that make The Elder Scroll games unique from other single player RPG's will have to be removed in order to create fairness. I think that some people don't take much thought into the fact that it can't be done without having the things in the game that we still love about TES and that would cause major community problems. It wouldn't even be TES to begin with. A person who knows about the Elder Scroll games could possibaly give over 500 reasons why it can't be done without stripping TES.

Adding multiplayer in an expansion is unlikely at best. If the developement of TES IV is anything like TES III the engine has been streamlined for single-player and adding multiplayer would require reworking a significant amount of the code. This was the technical reason that multiplayer wasn't added to TES III although it was somewhat moot as the developers had no wish to add it in the first place.

Let's take TES III as an example:
The engine is streamlined for single-player, probably to simplify and speed up developement. In fact, it is so streamlined that the devs said that adding multiplayer afterwards was effectively impossible without recoding large parts of the engine.

I would be surprised if TES IV is being developed differently from this:
If they want to leave the game open to multiplayer support, either to be added later or by moderators, then this would effect the entire engine. Suddenly, they need a system to deal with multiple characters as they interact with NPCs, Factions, Quest-givers, and merchants, as well as how to deal with resting and fast travel. Also, the scripting system needs to be able to handle multiple players, and the game world needs to be scaled in difficulty for the multiple players.

This requires a significant amount of time and effort to implament and test: adding multiplayer isn't a fast or easy system, even if you aren't bogging yourself down in balancing issues and finetuning netcode so the game still plays well over a laggy dialup.

Multiplayer is not simple. Multiplayer is very complex, and gets even more complex when put in an RPG along the lines of The Elder Scrolls. TES games were made for the purposes of creating the best single-player game possible. People who think that this game can be made into a MMO, they really need to think and not imagine. Think about some of these examples:

- stealing

- killing

- resting

- NPC's

- Quest

- etc.

Anofalye · August 2005

It could work, and it could even detroned WoW (quite unlikely, but possible).

All depend on how the game would be made.

The first concern of the game would be to make sure soloers and casuals are perfectly happy, which they are not in WoW. Once you secure that, you can think of the others aspects.

Would it be identical to Morrowind? Nope, it would be more complete, more detailed...the share scope of all what it would needs give me the vertigos. It would be more complex and more complete then any RPG system come to life this far...because a MMO version needs to be MORE then a single RPG version. Yet, it would need to be intuitive, so the players can figure it out easily...without searching what they needs on the internet, they needs to know what they have to do from the moment they are behind the screen, without reading text...it needs to be complex and long, yet simple...

I would have a few ideas on how to make that a reality...but it would need a lot of work.

Would we see it? Doubtful. Would it be done right if folks try it? Even more doubtful. Could it work? Yes.

Jenuviel · August 2005

Originally posted by Mikesta707
I dont kno if anyone has ever played morrowind or any other game in the Elder Scrolls series, but for those of u who havent, it is a very open, do what you want game where you can do almost anything and be almost anything. I was wondering if an MMO could be like that, like extremely open you can kill anyone in the town and if you kill them they are dead forever. if someone kills u either die forever or loose everything u had. Can someone tell me if this is a good idea or if it is terribly bad
~Mike~

There certainly could be a Bethesda MMO that made use of the skill system, the idea behind the Morrowind housing progression, the factions, the creatures, the lore, etc. I really doubt you'd ever see such an MMO that allowed players to have a permanent effect on the world, though. Eventually (sooner rather than later) every merchant, every quest giver, every guard, every slave, every NPC would be killed. Permanently. You'd be left with no aspect of the Morrowind game other than building forts out of pillows (assuming someone didn't steal all of the pillows).

Another issue is the fact that Bethesda ships unbelievably fun, but even more unbelievably buggy games. That's not to say they aren't incredibly deep, or that they don't eventually fix some of those problems (though not in Elder Scrolls: Arena, Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall, or Sea Dogs, which are still very buggy). Their reach simply exceeds their grasp. They put so much into their games that there's no way to predict how buggy they'll be, and that's just single player games. Magnify those problems by a hundred, a thousand, and you'll have a Bethesda MMO.

In any case, I think it's a problem to expect the same kind of thrill or resonance you get from a single-player game in a massively multiplayer game. In a world full of heroes, everyone is average. You can't have 200,000 players making an impact on the game by solving the same quest, and you can't have a team of writers creating an MMO quest that only one team wil be able to finish. For that very reason, storylines in MMOs tend to be broad, sweeping arcs that move independently of what the players do.

The closest I think you'll come to what you're looking for might be Trials of Ascension (in production). It's looking to be a bit too hardcore for me, but it apparently is going to have full pvp, non-optional perma-death for all players (after a number of "lives" have been used up), artifacts placed in-game for powerful deceased characters, player-run economies and cities, and other stuff of that nature. Morrowind it isn't, but it seems to offer more in terms of consequences than your average MMO. I don't know if you'll be able to permanently kill vendors, but apparently you'll be able to get rid of other players if you're good enough (or evil enough, as it were).

CaesarsGhost · August 2005

I think the closest you'll get to Morrowind/Oblivion in an MMO would be something like Trials of Ascension or The Chronicle. They're very similar games in many concepts of it, and they're very similar to each other in design.

Skill based, day/night cycles that change, enviormental effects that effect you, working gameworld that still continues whether you interact with it or not.

Both games have it.

Rikimaru_X · August 2005

Originally posted by Anofalye

It could work,

....No, it can't, and if it did it wouldn't be The Elder Scrolls, read my last post

madazz · August 2005

It can happen. You outlined nothing that couldnt be worked in or around. Ie; NPC's. Even if murdered they could re-spawn. It is possible. Every play a little game called Ultima Online back in its prime (well prime imo was years ago). In my opinion the game would have to be entirely open PvP with only guards protecting you in city as per UO.

Like really, who the eff do you think you are? You are stating things that arent facts as facts. Its your opinion. I see no reason why this game could not be created. It would just be a bit more complicated. NPC interaction could be personalized easily and what not. I could go into the mechanics but I wont bother.

Anofalye · August 2005

An elder scroll game dont need to allow open PvP and stealing with players, just with NPCs.

Elder scroll game only set rules to be respected against the NPCs. IMO instancing should be a blessing and present in an Elder Scroll game, since everyone should have access to every mob and NPCs only once, if they kill it...tooooo bad! They are dead...for you only!

Since I was never attacked by players when I play Morrowind, neither should I when I play a MMO of Morrowind.

But this is merely starting the discussion, and it would need a LOT of work...and yes, instancing would be part of an Elder Scroll game, and each NPCs would have only 1 live but they would only be dead if YOU kill them...so this is a LOT of work with a LOT of instancing.

Elder Scroll is merely rules between you and the world...and it is an instanced world. In fact, it cant be more instanced then that.

Dinion · August 2005

Originally posted by Rikimaru_X
Originally posted by Anofalye
It could work,....No, it can't, and if it did it wouldn't be The Elder Scrolls, read my last post

There are TES fans and there are the one time morrowind players who think they know TES ::::31::

. Just let them think what they want to.

What I think they are looking for is a morrowindish MMO. I guess it could still be in the TES theme, but wouldn't be anything like a TES game.

madazz · August 2005

I dont like mmo games with instancing to much. I loved COH, but I hated instancing, was ok for going into buildings, but each part of the city being seperate kinda sucked. I would give up having an NPC that stayed dead when killed for the amount of freedom available in morrowind.

And for the naysayers, its not like the game would be a copy of morrowind with multiplayer, thats ridiculous. There would be changes, and alot of things would have to be altered to make it an experience. I think it could work, and see no reason why not. Im sure though you know best with your vast knowledge over my computer gaming experience.

LILLIPPA328 · August 2005

Oblivion gonna be hott,wait for that....

darquenblade · August 2005

Originally posted by Anofalye
Elder scroll game only set rules to be respected against the NPCs. IMO instancing should be a blessing and present in an Elder Scroll game, since everyone should have access to every mob and NPCs only once, if they kill it...tooooo bad! They are dead...for you only!
Since I was never attacked by players when I play Morrowind, neither should I when I play a MMO of Morrowind.

A heavily instanced Elder Scrolls where everyone has their chance at everything, and there is no conflict with other players? You just described Morrowind as it is now.

brostyn · August 2005

I think a MMO like Morrowind would be awesome. I love the faction system in that game. I just love that game. Too bad its gets too easy once you're high level.

Johnark · August 2005

Here's the problem with killable NPCs.

Just take World of Warcraft, there was a time where Horde Rogues would stealth into Ironforge, stealth to the auction house, kill the the auctioneers, DIE (Cause all the players would kill'em), ressurect, kill'em back again, DIE, and repeat.

It took 20 full minutes for a GM to whisper them to stop. For 20 minutes NO ONE in Ironforge could access the Auction hall. It was living hell, it sucked, it was anoying, it stopped gamers from playing the game.

Imagine the same for you "MMO Morrowind" idea. Gain levels, cap your level, join a high level guild, go out and have fun killing important NPCs cause you're all bored. It'll stop players from having fun!

While a group of 1 to 5 players are enjoying themselves being asses, hundreds of other players aren't.

If one day I log into a new MMORPG, and I simply cannot accomplish anything because idiot players are having fun killing off quest NPCs or important NPCs to stop me from advancing, then I cancel my subscription. Sorry I only have 2-4 hours a day in a MMORPG. I have a life, unlike hardcore players who don't care if they can't play for 2-4 hours a day cause they have 10 other hours a day to catch up to their lost time.

apertotes · August 2005

Originally posted by Anofalye

Since I was never attacked by players when I play Morrowind, neither should I when I play a MMO of Morrowind.

Really?

so, you werent attacked by players while playing an offline single player game. wow, congrats!!!!

and yes, like someone above said, what you were describing as a morrowind mmorpg, is the actual single game. we want something different, a truly mmorpg, not a lot of instances where each player lives and can not affect nothing outside his bubble. for that wh have the original morrowind

Zhanghia · August 2005

Actually Morrowind was supposed to be an MMORPG or -at least- an online game.. pretty sure about the MMORPG part.

Dinion · August 2005

Originally posted by Zhanghia
Actually Morrowind was supposed to be an MMORPG or -at least- an online game.. pretty sure about the MMORPG part.

Where did you get this information? TES games have always been about bringing the best single player PRG experience possible.

Zhanghia · August 2005

PCGamer, the devs stated themselves but changed like.. mid development and just did single player. I know this for a 'fact' that they were originally going to try for online.

Dinion · August 2005

Originally posted by Zhanghia
PCGamer, the devs stated themselves but changed like.. mid development and just did single player. I know this for a 'fact' that they were originally going to try for online.

Do you know which PC gamer or have a link somewhere to the interview? Sorry if I don't trust your memory considering how long morrowind has been out and about.

Dinion · August 2005

From morrowind summit http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/goods/faq.asp?topic=mul#18.1

18.1 Will Morrowind feature a multiplayer option?
"We talked a lot about doing it (multiplayer) initially, but we always found that we only wanted to do to say we had it, not because it was really a good thing to do. Were concentrating on making the best single-person RPG ever, and thats what people want. I think the multi-player only RPGs will provide a better experience if you want to play with your friends than a game that tries to do both"
"We thought about it when we first started. In general, we feel it is better to concentrate on making the best single player game we can, and all the time should be spent making it the best it can be"

Would be cool to have kind of a neverwinter nights/D2 style multiplayer though. MMO would just end being a UO clone with TES theme ::::31:: (which wouldn't be too bad actaully, still nothing like the single player games though).

LILLIPPA328 · August 2005

They gota map maker n all,thats it...but that would be cool to have a D2 style....

Zhanghia · August 2005

I think that's pretty much the gist of what they said. You still get my point.

EDIT: Although they originally planned for such, I think they just changed their stance mid production/development to save their skins. I'm not saying Morrowind is a bad game and I may even be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge it is what they said since I know I read a column of about 3-4 pages about the game.

And no, I don't remember the issue. It's ancient methinks x_x

Dinion · August 2005

Originally posted by Zhanghia
I think that's pretty much the gist of what they said. You still get my point.EDIT: Although they originally planned for such, I think they just changed their stance mid production/development to save their skins. I'm not saying Morrowind is a bad game and I may even be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge it is what they said since I know I read a column of about 3-4 pages about the game.And no, I don't remember the issue. It's ancient methinks x_x

I believe them, multiplayer is a nice feature but not at all what the TES games area bout. I'd also hate to see the single player experience limited just so they could work multiplayer into it.

darquenblade · August 2005

In regards to Morrowind--am I the only one that found the game to be lacking? I realize I'm probably in the minority here, but I ended up being disappointed in the game, and I hope Oblivion does better. The world was beautiful and had a very immersive feel to it, but what killed the game for me was the hundreds of cookie-cutter NPCs that said the same thing, and the incredibly dull combat.

Zhanghia · August 2005

Actually, in all truthfulness, I loved umm.. what's it called.. the one before Morrowind, that one was the best.And the dungeons were -so- fun.

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