The were originally marketed as a way to "help" people who were just plain terribad at generating MMO wealth. Initially praised, in fact.
"Compulsory" activity yields compulsory complaining; shouldn't be any particular surprise.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't mind dailies as long as there are other aspects of the game I am signing on for also that I still enjoying. If it's the only reason I sign in then it's time for me to find a new game.
That's my opinion as well.
The worst experience I've had with dailies is Forsaken World which required dailies to level up.
It doesn't replace end game content, but it's nice to know you can make progress by just logging in for a half hour or so.
Instead in MMOs you do Dailies for gear and you have a broken worthless crafting system. Funny how an FPS does the whole character/gear progression better than any modern MMOs... tbh it's as much of an MMO as most "MMOs" are these days. All you have now is hubs that everyone stays in and just grinds small scale PVP in battlegrounds or "raids" which don't deserve the name as they're so small scale. Soon Left 4 Dead will have more people in a game than a Raid, if people get their way it'll be solo raids cause apparently everyone hates grouping.
You know what I hear? Lets get rid of McDonalds. Dailies are enjoyed by millions, and they were asked for. Not forced upon a unwilling populus, like their removal would be. The next thing devs heard from the paying public, they don't want to be forced to buy gear from crafters. Crafters are seen as greedy, unscrupulous, money vacuums. So that is why you don't see a system like the one in Team Fortress 2.
You know what fans of Open World PvP like in their OWPvP? Fans of PvE. You know what Fans of OWPvP hate about Battlegrounds or Instanced PvP? They are filled with Fans of PvP. Battlegrounds are consensual PvP. OWPvP is non-consensual PvP, or "----". MMO PvP data was analysed, and OWPvP was seen to be used as a denial of service to paying customers. When the attacking players were asked what their PvP goals were, they answered "to maintain their claim to fame of reach the level they had and preventing others from doing the same". These same players avoided all PvP with equal leveled players. All of this was predicted by Bartle. Further analysis showed a behavior similar to stalking a victim, and slipping something into their drink. This is why PvE & PvP are separated as they are now.
These feature that are constantly called for their removal, are not there by accident. If you're gonna call for the removal of features that the public wants, then you must answer, how and truly why.
I guess the devs forgot that the psychotic-creeperstalker-PKers were paying customers too, and denied them service by separating PvP and PvE. Which wasn't a BAD business move, I guess, but it definitely wasn't the best move. In a situation like that, the best thing isn't to do whatever the most people ask for. Instead figure out WHY they're asking for it. Find out what the problem REALLY is. Then fix the problem(not simply furfill the request.) I think it's rare for a big group of complainers to know exactly what they really need.
It's just lazy grind content that isn't fun and just ruins an end game.
Its an expected evolution to satisfy those that loved to grind for the ACTUAL worst idea in the history of MMORPGs. Gear with stats.
Stat based gear, the original carrot on a stick to get players that are not playing for fun to keep playing...everything that came after that was an evolution of the original bad idea.
That dungeon? It wasnt created for fun, it was created to keep you playing. The layout, mob spawn places, difficulty and loot drops were set in motion by the original flaw. Not fun based, gear based.
If you are not geared, odds of you being able to complete it are nil, so a progression was required...why? Stat based gear.
And this is where people chime in about if there is no progression then why are you playing? I play for FUN and a game where one person is decked out in uber pwn a gods face set of gear is not required...weak gameplay elements like that are the cause for everything listed in this thread as being lazy game design.
Lazy game design came about from serving players that seem to love to eat carrots.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Its an expected evolution to satisfy those that loved to grind for the ACTUAL worst idea in the history of MMORPGs. Gear with stats.
Stat based gear, the original carrot on a stick to get players that are not playing for fun to keep playing...everything that came after that was an evolution of the original bad idea.
That dungeon? It wasnt created for fun, it was created to keep you playing. The layout, mob spawn places, difficulty and loot drops were set in motion by the original flaw. Not fun based, gear based.
If you are not geared, odds of you being able to complete it are nil, so a progression was required...why? Stat based gear.
And this is where people chime in about if there is no progression then why are you playing? I play for FUN and a game where one person is decked out in uber pwn a gods face set of gear is not required...weak gameplay elements like that are the cause for everything listed in this thread as being lazy game design.
Lazy game design came about from serving players that seem to love to eat carrots.
While i dont entirely disagree with the premise that devs have become too "goal oriented" (100k of that crowd, 50k of that crowd, 70k of that crowd, look, we have a game ), i dont think it is fair to say that what you experience as "fun" is the only type of "fun" there is and everything else is lazy design. Games are as diverse as people, what one finds boring, the other finds fun, there is no ultimate type of fun.
As for dailies, i am sure someone has mentioned it, the problem is time, you have one week to do a raid, you have just 24 hours for a daily, the devs overbuff the daily rewards, and this ofcourse causes trouble with the rest of the content, why play for 7 hours on saturday with your friends, if you can do dailies for 30minutes solo every day and get much more gold/exp/items for your time? Players should not be in this position.
Dailies were a solution to the player desire to repeatedly farm a dungeon they enjoy.
The alternative would be to manage the game world's economy in such a manner that the rewards pulled from the dungeon don't start flooding the market and causing inflation. Most MMOs use BOP as a part of their approach to it. Some use loss and breakage (often through durability), and others allow the rewards to be refined down to base materials, which in turn supplies another subset of the server community - the crafters.
The root of it all is the static, lossless gear-based system. Epics and the One Best Item We All Need available only at the end of a spcifica dungeon is prolific in mainstream MMos. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds this crappy item system together. Dailies are a symptom and a poor solution for a much deeper issue.
Dailies were a solution to the player desire to repeatedly farm a dungeon they enjoy.
The alternative would be to manage the game world's economy in such a manner that the rewards pulled from the dungeon don't start flooding the market and causing inflation. Most MMOs use BOP as a part of their approach to it. Some use loss and breakage (often through durability), and others allow the rewards to be refined down to base materials, which in turn supplies another subset of the server community - the crafters.
The root of it all is the static, lossless gear-based system. Epics and the One Best Item We All Need available only at the end of a spcifica dungeon is prolific in mainstream MMos. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds this crappy item system together. Dailies are a symptom and a poor solution for a much deeper issue.
When they add new better items the old items will no longer be possible to sell. And will not flood the market. If there is no demand people will give up trying to sell them. From that POV the gear system in most MMO:s is not static.
You will use the new good item until the next content patch when its time to upgrade. As soon as there is a new dungeon or raid zone with better gear the older dungeons will not be worth farming. Often items are only used for 3-6 months. Even if they are the best at first when you start using them.
Maybe Dailies can make people want to continue farming old dungeons even if the loot that drops in them is bad.
You know what I hear? Lets get rid of McDonalds. Dailies are enjoyed by millions, and they were asked for. Not forced upon a unwilling populus, like their removal would be. The next thing devs heard from the paying public, they don't want to be forced to buy gear from crafters. Crafters are seen as greedy, unscrupulous, money vacuums. So that is why you don't see a system like the one in Team Fortress 2.
You know what fans of Open World PvP like in their OWPvP? Fans of PvE. You know what Fans of OWPvP hate about Battlegrounds or Instanced PvP? They are filled with Fans of PvP. Battlegrounds are consensual PvP. OWPvP is non-consensual PvP, or "----". MMO PvP data was analysed, and OWPvP was seen to be used as a denial of service to paying customers. When the attacking players were asked what their PvP goals were, they answered "to maintain their claim to fame of reach the level they had and preventing others from doing the same". These same players avoided all PvP with equal leveled players. All of this was predicted by Bartle. Further analysis showed a behavior similar to stalking a victim, and slipping something into their drink. This is why PvE & PvP are separated as they are now.
These feature that are constantly called for their removal, are not there by accident. If you're gonna call for the removal of features that the public wants, then you must answer, how and truly why.
I guess the devs forgot that the psychotic-creeperstalker-PKers were paying customers too, and denied them service by separating PvP and PvE. Which wasn't a BAD business move, I guess, but it definitely wasn't the best move. In a situation like that, the best thing isn't to do whatever the most people ask for. Instead figure out WHY they're asking for it. Find out what the problem REALLY is. Then fix the problem(not simply furfill the request.) I think it's rare for a big group of complainers to know exactly what they really need.
What? Of course a business is going to do what the majority want. Look at all the OWPvP...most of them can barely get enough subs to keep them afloat. How are you going to stop griefing except putting in some highly restrictive rules that protect those that want the main focus to be PvE with PvP on the side.
The way you describe this, it sounds pretty grim. I prefer an endgame that's focused on player interaction. PvP, politics, trade, whatever. Not just more stuff-getting.
Battlegrounds / Arenas / Warzones = LAZY IMPLEMENTATION of PvP.
Dailies / Repeatable Quests = LAZY IMPLEMENTATION of PvE.
100% Theme Park = LAZY IMAGINATION
I agree. Also, it's sad that all failed MMOs with total hand holding, dailies and brainless gear grind instead of end game float around on so-called freemium model. Risks for laziness hould be way bigger than going freemium.
Not once did I log on because of "community". I logged on because at the time, they were great games and there was always something to do. Levelling was a long process and so was reaching your personal goals. If anything is to blame, then it's the Mc'MMOs that insists endgame should be reached preferably yesterday, with its easy and fast advancement systems
Although I agree the community part has gone to hell, I strongly disagree with a correlation to 'dailies'. Not everybody plays MMOs to become buddy buddy with online players, like a little online family and we are quite able to keep our attention span focused on 1 game for long periods of time if the game is well made in all aspects
That's the beauty of it. You didn't log on because of the community - not knowingly - but the community made those games so much better. It's like saying that going to the bar is great, even on your own, but I bet you'd think differently if the place was empty. Imagine taking all the players out of EQ or DaoC and playing solo for those 3 or 4 years - would it have been such a great game?
It's just lazy grind content that isn't fun and just ruins an end game. It's just "go get this repeatable quest" then "collect 50 or these or kill 50 of those" then you get a reward. I mean why not just tie that into stats like if you get 50 kills in a PVP battleground or have a dot kill someone after your died or something fun? You have games like TF2 that do fun things like these and then you have this whole loot/crafting system which is amazing.
Interestingly GW2 is doing something similar to what the op suggest with their daily and monthly achievements, like kill 8 types of enemies, or gain 1000 gold trading or win 1 pvp battle. Monthly events can include stuff like kill 1000 invaders in WvW or get 50000 xp without dying.
It still is kinda of a daily quest but it is disguise during your normal activities and allow to make your first periors of playing more rewarding and that is good if you only have limited amount of time.
Of course if the activities aren't fun anymore it doesn't make much difference, although I suspect that they can use these achievements (and apparently monthly achievements vary from month to month) to focus people in certain areas or lead to areas that they have changed, like adding a new event change to zone x with new enemies and stories.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Dailies were a solution to the player desire to repeatedly farm a dungeon they enjoy.
That statement is quite far from truth imo. At first dailies were introduced in certain MMOs as a yet another simple and steady source of gold for max level character, which were repeatable quests (the ones OP mentions, I believe). When they were also later introduced to the dungeons (I think WoW was one of the first to do so), they did so not in order to cater to players desire to farm dungeons, but in order to reduce the said grind for a specific item.
Since dungeon quests in WoW rewarded you with a currency, it served two goals;
a) You could get gear from currenvy even if your luck at getting items from bosses was absolute worst.
b) You could have some free choice which dungeon you preffered to grind to obtain said powerful piece from dungeon currency.
I don't think majority in WoW enjoyes dungeon farming for the sake of farming anymore.
Originally posted by Ausare
How are you going to stop griefing except putting in some highly restrictive rules that protect those that want the main focus to be PvE with PvP on the side.
Or you could design your game around open world PvP as EvE did, while leaving a smaller safe heaven for those who want to take it slow and steady.
I tend to agree. While I am not sure I can rank the bad things of MMOs, dailies definitely rank among the worst. I passionately hate them, together with faction grind and endgame grind.
Dailies are really the most dumb, cheap and boring way to keep people subscribed.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
That stemmed directly from lazy players?
The were originally marketed as a way to "help" people who were just plain terribad at generating MMO wealth. Initially praised, in fact.
"Compulsory" activity yields compulsory complaining; shouldn't be any particular surprise.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
That's the single worst invention in mmos
Dailies would be second
Separate pve/pvp stats would be third
That's my opinion as well.
The worst experience I've had with dailies is Forsaken World which required dailies to level up.
It doesn't replace end game content, but it's nice to know you can make progress by just logging in for a half hour or so.
Instead in MMOs you do Dailies for gear and you have a broken worthless crafting system. Funny how an FPS does the whole character/gear progression better than any modern MMOs... tbh it's as much of an MMO as most "MMOs" are these days. All you have now is hubs that everyone stays in and just grinds small scale PVP in battlegrounds or "raids" which don't deserve the name as they're so small scale. Soon Left 4 Dead will have more people in a game than a Raid, if people get their way it'll be solo raids cause apparently everyone hates grouping.
I guess the devs forgot that the psychotic-creeperstalker-PKers were paying customers too, and denied them service by separating PvP and PvE. Which wasn't a BAD business move, I guess, but it definitely wasn't the best move. In a situation like that, the best thing isn't to do whatever the most people ask for. Instead figure out WHY they're asking for it. Find out what the problem REALLY is. Then fix the problem(not simply furfill the request.) I think it's rare for a big group of complainers to know exactly what they really need.
Dailys Suck. Except maybe if you have OCD.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Its an expected evolution to satisfy those that loved to grind for the ACTUAL worst idea in the history of MMORPGs. Gear with stats.
Stat based gear, the original carrot on a stick to get players that are not playing for fun to keep playing...everything that came after that was an evolution of the original bad idea.
That dungeon? It wasnt created for fun, it was created to keep you playing. The layout, mob spawn places, difficulty and loot drops were set in motion by the original flaw. Not fun based, gear based.
If you are not geared, odds of you being able to complete it are nil, so a progression was required...why? Stat based gear.
And this is where people chime in about if there is no progression then why are you playing? I play for FUN and a game where one person is decked out in uber pwn a gods face set of gear is not required...weak gameplay elements like that are the cause for everything listed in this thread as being lazy game design.
Lazy game design came about from serving players that seem to love to eat carrots.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
While i dont entirely disagree with the premise that devs have become too "goal oriented" (100k of that crowd, 50k of that crowd, 70k of that crowd, look, we have a game
), i dont think it is fair to say that what you experience as "fun" is the only type of "fun" there is and everything else is lazy design. Games are as diverse as people, what one finds boring, the other finds fun, there is no ultimate type of fun.
As for dailies, i am sure someone has mentioned it, the problem is time, you have one week to do a raid, you have just 24 hours for a daily, the devs overbuff the daily rewards, and this ofcourse causes trouble with the rest of the content, why play for 7 hours on saturday with your friends, if you can do dailies for 30minutes solo every day and get much more gold/exp/items for your time? Players should not be in this position.
Flame on!
Only thing worse than dailies for a standard rewards are dailies that focus on reptuation grinds for a new area. Yay...
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
QFT!
Give me liberty or give me lasers
When they add new better items the old items will no longer be possible to sell. And will not flood the market. If there is no demand people will give up trying to sell them. From that POV the gear system in most MMO:s is not static.
You will use the new good item until the next content patch when its time to upgrade. As soon as there is a new dungeon or raid zone with better gear the older dungeons will not be worth farming. Often items are only used for 3-6 months. Even if they are the best at first when you start using them.
Maybe Dailies can make people want to continue farming old dungeons even if the loot that drops in them is bad.
What? Of course a business is going to do what the majority want. Look at all the OWPvP...most of them can barely get enough subs to keep them afloat. How are you going to stop griefing except putting in some highly restrictive rules that protect those that want the main focus to be PvE with PvP on the side.
Which Game started this insidious trend?
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I agree. Also, it's sad that all failed MMOs with total hand holding, dailies and brainless gear grind instead of end game float around on so-called freemium model. Risks for laziness hould be way bigger than going freemium.
That's the beauty of it. You didn't log on because of the community - not knowingly - but the community made those games so much better. It's like saying that going to the bar is great, even on your own, but I bet you'd think differently if the place was empty. Imagine taking all the players out of EQ or DaoC and playing solo for those 3 or 4 years - would it have been such a great game?
Interestingly GW2 is doing something similar to what the op suggest with their daily and monthly achievements, like kill 8 types of enemies, or gain 1000 gold trading or win 1 pvp battle. Monthly events can include stuff like kill 1000 invaders in WvW or get 50000 xp without dying.
It still is kinda of a daily quest but it is disguise during your normal activities and allow to make your first periors of playing more rewarding and that is good if you only have limited amount of time.
Of course if the activities aren't fun anymore it doesn't make much difference, although I suspect that they can use these achievements (and apparently monthly achievements vary from month to month) to focus people in certain areas or lead to areas that they have changed, like adding a new event change to zone x with new enemies and stories.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
That statement is quite far from truth imo. At first dailies were introduced in certain MMOs as a yet another simple and steady source of gold for max level character, which were repeatable quests (the ones OP mentions, I believe). When they were also later introduced to the dungeons (I think WoW was one of the first to do so), they did so not in order to cater to players desire to farm dungeons, but in order to reduce the said grind for a specific item.
Since dungeon quests in WoW rewarded you with a currency, it served two goals;
a) You could get gear from currenvy even if your luck at getting items from bosses was absolute worst.
b) You could have some free choice which dungeon you preffered to grind to obtain said powerful piece from dungeon currency.
I don't think majority in WoW enjoyes dungeon farming for the sake of farming anymore.
Or you could design your game around open world PvP as EvE did, while leaving a smaller safe heaven for those who want to take it slow and steady.
I tend to agree. While I am not sure I can rank the bad things of MMOs, dailies definitely rank among the worst. I passionately hate them, together with faction grind and endgame grind.
Dailies are really the most dumb, cheap and boring way to keep people subscribed.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I agree, its a cheap way to add content and keep players....follow the carrot. Gets old quickly
They are awful but they would only barily make my top 5 worst things to happen to the genre list.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
le facepalm
Dailies are what drove me to quit first WoW and then SWTOR. Logon, do dailies, logout. Too much like real life.