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Betrayal, redifine.
Anofalye
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433
Turbines just redefine BETRAYAL!
The game has nothing to do with D&D, it has nothing in comon with D&D.
RAIDING, real time, no xp for killing mobs, nearly no random, the death system, not solo friendly, weird mixing about the feats, spells every 10 levels and the list merely start!
Thereby, in the name of Gygax (he dont know it, but well...) I am proclaiming a new reformed D&D church, and we start right now with a Crusade against Turbines!
/Duel Ken Troop
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Comments
How is adapting PnP rules to work in an MMORPG betrayal exactly? You saying you want to sit there waiting for your turn while a thousand other people take theirs?
EDIT: Maybe you were being funny... I don't know
Adapting game based turn was a possibility, they discard it for real time.
The only part I was funny was the /duel, I would rather hire a professional do the dirty work!
They dont adapt D&D for a MMO, they whore it and make it EQ1.5. The game is irreversably hopeless beyond any hope!
I was still believing in it...up to the point where they bring RAIDING! LOL, it is abject and presponsderous!
Gygax should start a game and name it Dragons & Dungeons Online! If they sue, it would only feed the hatred against Turbines and WotC, so they have a lose/lose situation.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I wouldn't worry too much about the word raiding. It's just a word that people call challenging expeditions that can take lots of people to accomplish. There were plenty of those back in the old PnP days (at least with my groups). Don't be too quick to harken back to the days of EQ1 raiding when that word is mentioned.
I must say, though, that I haven't been vigilant in keeping up with everything that is D&D Online... So maybe the picture in your head is quite accurate...
Raiding in DDO are groups of 20 persons (dunno how they arrive at 20, with the father of the group of 6 persons, but that would be another point in itself).
Turbines will have taken the only franchise that start with a bigger fanbase then Blizzard...and I dont think they will even beat EQ2 subscribtion wise, this is a lamentable failure (EQ2 is doing great considering the starting fanbase and the crippling it fanbase endure with EQ).
This game, done right, could have eclipsed WoW easily...but no...they just do mistakes after mistakes after mistakes.
Damn, they should teach Woody Allen a few tricks!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Anofalye, maybe you should just take a break from MMOs for the time being. It seems like no game will have exactly what you want right now, so maybe you should just let the genre pass you by for a few months or so...
Following your posts regarding many games on this site, you usually find fault with every one of them somehow. Perhaps this is a sign that you should play something else for the time being..
Just an observation.
LOL.
I just need a nice PvE MMO that dont have enforced raiding in it. (Even DDO wont be a nice PvE non-raiding MMO, this is pure trash, where should I look now? Honestly, where?)
It is quite simple...and taking a break from MMO? This is why I am on this site! I dont come here when I play a MMO. Check for how long I have been at 100% Elite Member and you know for how long I didnt play a MMO, when I was playing CoH, I think I nearly drop to 60%!
But no, they all have to either enforce PvP or Raiding...well, I can complain. DDO is a raw insult to any D&D fan. They make a clown version of D&D. The Baldur's Gate on the Xbox is a masterwork compare to what I see in DDO.
Name me 1 MMO, only 1, that is not enforcing PvP or Raiding and that is somehow decent in the rest, you wont find any.
I rather be playing EQ(or WoW) right now then play this DDO.
I did find the "perfect MMO", but they change it...you can talk to Cryptic about the implementation of Hamidon HOs...so here I am, roaming the place in searches of my new Eden, since the last was polluted by raiding. I must have post a concerned message or 2 while I was enjoying the game, saying that Issue 2 with it changes was seriously bad on the casuals and should be reconsidered...because I was caring for the well being of the game...and as soon as I was able, I was resuming playing to go earn exactly what was not cool for the casuals (accolades).
See, someone that is only positive is someone you better be careful off, been able to pinpoints the flaws while you keep enjoying something is a great edge...and I enjoy every moment I earn every accolade and play the game...yet, I was able to say accolades in their form where more a flaw then an edge because of their effect on the casuals.
Most folks would just have praise the accolades because it please them. I know better then praising something that harm my game, even if myself loooove it and jump in it with all my heart. When the casuals leave, every member of the community suffer from it. Just as every member of the community suffer when the hardcores leave. A game needs to find a way to please everyone as long as pleasing them is not detrimental to others players. Accolades where detrimentals for casuals, thereby they where bad in this form. Accolades could easily have been reworked so they dont affect 90% of the zones and only work in a specific setting, the casuals can always avoid this setting without much though, and the hardcores can focus and earn it endlessly...but seem like they switch their focus on the Hamidon, which is an even worser mistake.
Take old EQ and remove all raiding, or take CoH and remove HOs completely...and I would be happy in those 2 settings, they are quite differents and have many HUGE differences, and some flaws, but I would be happy. Raiding and PvP are major aspects of a game I cant ignore, they are not flaws, they are a 2 X 4 thrown at you.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Well, seeing how PvP and raiding are your main complaints with the genre to date, you have somewhat proven my point. As you can plainly see, there aren't ANY games in development currently that won't have some form of PvP and/or raiding as part of their feature set. Therefore, you are probably better off playing some single player games for a while
.
Completely PvE games? The only two I can think of in development are LOTRO and DDO, and the dev teams of both of those games have hinted that PvP will eventually be added in at a later date.
As far as raiding is concerned, I agree that it is a pretty stupid end-game mechanic (lets get an army of players together to gank a mob with 1000000hp! Not to mention that over half the raid members will stand around doing nothing, just soaking up xp). Unforunately, no game developers that I know of have stepped up to the plate to offer any other kind of end-game PvE content, which is sad.
Basically what I'm saying Anofalye, is that I'm not sure how much enjoyment you will find in any of the current games in development. Anyhow, don't give up on DDO just yet--you owe it to yourself to at least try it. I have doubts as well, but I can't let something with the D&D name pass me by...who knows, we could all be pleasantly surprised.
I dont care if PvP or Raiding is part of the game.
I care if PvP or Raiding is rewarded better when it come to solo or grouping PvE concerns, they dont deserve it.
No, I will NEVER again try a game which enforce PvP or Raiding on the players, not even CoV or DDO.
A lack of high end is better then Raiding or PvP enforced...althought myself is a old school unlimited levels fans!
If you denied me my unlimited levels, then at least dont enforce something I dont like on me, a stop is better then something lame. I can play a game that lack END GAME content, I would just subscribe and cancel 6 times in a year and coming back for every expension...but a game which enforce a wrong end game, I would just quit it right away.
I am not sure about the "no MMO in development" part. Many MMO devs teams have carefully worded their sentence...I can think of HJ, of CoV, of TR, of AA maybe even of Vanguard with their specifics servers...who know? And Imperator was going to be extremely nice on this topic (it was clearly taking the lead where CoH has open a breach before), so maybe Warhammer will be...Heck, maybe even Irth Online will be fine on this aspect, and they have both PvP and raiding...just need to read more on how they do it and how the non-PvPers can enjoy their world exactly.
Like I say, I dont mind if there is PvP or Raiding, as long as they dont get solo/grouping PvE uberness as a reward for their activities, I really dont care...if you give the ultimate sword of doom in raiding or PvP, then I am against the very existence of this activity, since it ruin my solo/grouping game.
And like I say, it is neither me, nor you, nor anyone arguing here that can decide the specifics of a game...I mean...even Vanguard kept a door open, I dont trust Brad to use that door, but they kept it open...so if even them does so...it is logical to expect someone to do it.
CoH was perfect not long ago...and they may very well resume this perfect state...they are juggling...they did a mistake (HOs), then they nerf it and judge what to do now...me I am not returning with any part of the mistake implemented, 1 hp is to much of an edge to unworthy raiders. How will Cryptic react...well, in a Cryptic way I assume!
Will it please me, I dunno...but it will happen just after/before (before if they judge for long terms effects, after if they want immediate rewards and $) CoV if it happen or I am a dummie and know nothing about Marketing.
Single player RPG are always over in 2 weeks...and quite honestly, not many of them to munch...I guess I could replay again SSI or BI products...but I am already replaying them to a point folks would judge me insane.
If DDO remove that raiding part, I would try it...but it would be quite painfull if they add it at a later point *make a Cryptic face*, so it would be better for them not cheating and just keep it if they intend on having it...No, I will not pay for any game that enforce raiding or PvP...not even for D&D(well, if it was game based turn maybe I could bear with raiding, that is pretty hard to judge...but not many nice GBT games now).
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
It's either going to be raiding or insanely insanely low drop rates on the "uber" items... People like raiding more because they can see the item drop... Even if they don't win it. Otherwise you got the diablo 2 problem where the game is live for months and months and the rarest item in the game still hasn't dropped once.
Thus you can have a very hard encounter, and a good chance to drop the item 1/20. Or and super low chance for it to drop off or a group/solo mob 1/100k+. Otherwise everyone would have the item in a week.
At least in DDO they say every member of the party gets their own treasure chest.
I hope you aren't referring to WoW when you talk about forced PvP and forced raiding, because it has neither.
Not forced? If you want to PVP you have to have decent equipment and if you don't raid and don't PVP you won't have either.
As to the OT here he is completely right. The game has already taken a huge turn from the original (I say original, 3e is hardly D&D original) game that I really don't see that much of the game.
Can't deal with the level system? Holy crap there is no reason they HAD to change the level system period. There was no reason other than "they wanted to do it". I really wish they would take the route of "keep it D&D unless we cannot do it." In some cases you just can't do all you can in pnp but the level system is NOT one of the things you had to change. As to stuff like cleave/great cleave... um even bioware got that in NWN so that is just a lame excuse.
And since when can you actually dodge a giant's special attack just because you know the special effect it has before it goes off? Not in D&D! You depend on your saving throws, your characters class and other abilities for said things. You don't just say "Oh, I see the dragon take a deep breath? I duck behind that rock there till he breaths." No, you make a save and take damage or not.
That also is not something they had to do.
Mana? Well lazy man's way out I guess. NWN did spell memorization and a simple limit of how often you could memorize can easily be implemented (i.e. don't allow a player to memorize spells but every 8 or 24 hours or whatever which would be 8 or 24 minutes real gametime, it would be the same effect as mana but using the system people know in D&D).
You don't need "turn based combat" to keep it D&D.
Anyway, OP you are right, the game is diverging a lot from D&D but Gygax wouldn't recognize it even if it wasn't as he stopped writing for D&D/TSR back about the time 2nd edition came out. I bet he'd much rather have AD&D MMORPG.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
But it's not forced. You just feel you have to be as good as the raiders and PvPers, but without the motivation they have.
I am TIRED of this crap argumentation. Raiders dont deserve anything but raiding tools, in groups and solo it deserve to be NOTHING!
Oh, I endure pain so I deserve this...Ok, what about the guy who play Pac Man, he deserve it at least as much! And the guy who take a class about gaming at university? Come on, dont tell me they dont deserve it at least as much as raiders...
Raiding is a PAINFUL system that has nothing to do with the original game. Give me unlimited levels if you want, I will be FAR more happy with that then with crap raiding or PvP. As a level 500 I would not care what a level 50 raider is doing, because he is a NOOB! And the level 12000 player will not care what I do, because I am a NOOB for him. If you dont like raiding, then dont raid, dont raid in order to get a cheesy, unworthy, lame, edge in the REAL fun games, grouping & soloing. If peoples raid only for grouping and soloing edges, then raiding should not even exist, since it is PAIN, not fun, lame, it has no reason to even exist if this is solely linked to the edges it give outside of raiding. Raiding deserve to be a game on it own, not a parasite that destroy solo and group gameplays damn it!
The best grouper NEEDS to earn everything in groups. The Best soloer NEEDS to earns everything solo, not doing anything else but freaking solo, 24/24, 7/7 for years damnit (or by doing unbelievable feats, using his tools he earn SOLO, not tools he earn in another unworthy game like raiding or Pac Man)! And the best in Crushbone just need to have accomplish the quest inside Crushbone which take a few hours and nobody can be better then him in Crushbone, quite simple. The Nasa scientist are NOT better then a plumber to handle pipelines, the plumber is better then they are.
FORCED raiding is not acceptable, give me a system where I have 1 chance on 2k to get the loot by MY dedication and MY worth, doing what I did to get there...dont trash me with a raiding or PvP system that has NOTHING to do with everything I did to get there.
Making D&D a RAIDING game is the single MOST ABJECT BETRAYAL I ever see in the gaming industry! A game that focus on instancing should understand such basics about players not enjoying to have to waste time in big groups, doing nothing but wasting time, looking at their feets, listening to poor jokes and moods, witnessing the guild drama, come on, instancing is about FUN, and their is no FUN in enforcing raiding or PvP on peoples that want to solo or group PvE wise...and sorry, nobody is more worthy to OWN the solo system then a soloer, and nobody is more worthy to OWNs the grouping system then a grouper!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
WoW is a forced Raiding. No idea about PvP...but I dont think someone has to PvP to earn anything outside of the PvP, except on PvP servers...so a humble guess for WoW would be that the PvP system is acceptable.
The Raiding system in WoW is a piece of trash, it is enforced at the expense of everyone. Someone who kill Onyxia dont deserve to solo better or to be better in group, he didnt earn that edge solo or group wise, it is just lame to give that player an edge AFTER the cap you put on the players. Remove that cap if you must, but dont put a lame system where peoples have to raid.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
No, I dont need to be as good as the raiders. I need to be better then them in grouping and in soloing, they can be better then me in raiding, I dont care, I dont raid. I need to solo better then them because I am more solo worthy. I need to group better then them because I am more group worthy. They are...raid worthy, nothing more, nothing less. If they dont enjoy raiding, this is NOT MY PROBLEM anymore then if someone dont enjoy Pac Man, however Pac Man players dont get cheesy unworthy edges in the games I play, so it is not even a topic. I enjoy every moment I group and solo, and I deserve to reach the TOP of the soloing and the grouping a LOT more then any raider can deserve it.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Dude... Take a breath, step back, then tell me how you really feel.
Miserable with every MMO out there been a travesty to either raiding or PvP (WoW is only a travesty to raiding, DAoC is to both).
I dont mind if most are...as long as you leave me at least 1 nice that is not a raiding or PvP enforcing. But they all are enforcing PvP or Raiding...this is getting presponderous.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren