Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
How would you promote a healthy community?
TacoShank
Member UncommonPosts: 23
Hello everyone,
Let me first say I'm well aware that these forums are rife with armchair developers. However, this doesn't mean they don't have a say as consumers, or that their opinions are invalid. I mention this because as the game designer for an upcoming MMO I'd love to get a little cooperative brainstorm going to see what the public is looking for. In this case I'm tackling the problem of community. To me community is one of the primary things that makes MMO's such a unique and enjoyable experience. I find it unfortunate that many modern MMO's have become overly "solo play" oriented, and I would like your help to think of ways to combat this growing trend.
With that said here are three things for you to focus on:
How do you think developers can help to nurture a healthy community?
What features do you think are necessary to the success of an MMO's community? (as defined by your experience with other MMO's)
How would you change or innovate current standard MMO features to promote a vibrant community?
Thanks for all of your input, I'll be looking forward to seeing what you have to say!
Comments
No FFA PvP. Make it only faction PvP.
also make it so you can only play a single faction per server.
Make factions look and feel different.
Give factions reason to attack and hunt each other.
Give players team bonus for forming larger groups for PvP against other factions.
this helps build a faction pride on the community.
Also if you have party dungeons, set the min size above 5 players. Get more p,ayers to play together in a group.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Make a less combat centric game.
Balance competition, cooperation, and creativity evenly throughout all game systems.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
I think a good chat function that's easy to use with a filter to block gold spammer goes a long way.
Interesting. So essentially you think that having an emphasis on faction-based warfare is the most important community aspect? What about having guild or clan based warfare?
Also, why do you think that increasing the number of players allowed into a dungeon would be benefical?
Start off with a real player driven economy that induces player interdependency with tools and systems that plays as much of a major role as combat in the game.
I like the "anti-grieving" policies that GW2 have put into the mix for starts. I liked always (in BWE at least) being happy to see another player from my server. No one on my server has to be "the enemy." I don't know how other people feel about that, but I like it. We'll see how it goes long term. I like the encouragement to have "server wide pride," so to speak.
There was a lot of helping going on. Just felt natural to do that, the way it was set up. Again....we'll see if that lasts, but I'm optimistic that it will.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I agree with mmoexposed, but then he is basically describing daoc, hehe. If you didn't want that type a few in general things I would like would be:
Grouping would be rewarded. You can still solo, and aren't punished for soloing, but grouping gains more experience. games today seem to reward soloing and punish grouping. Creating group dependance will improve a community who needs to interact with each other.
I also like groups above 5 players, 6-8 are good. Allows for a wider range of types of players (classes).
A good lfg tool. no randomly insert you into a group, nothing cross servers. Increase server sizes.
Crafting would be meaningful, be able to enchant items. If you were to make crafting the end all be all, then the game would be for pvp oriented since there would not be a big reason to raid. Some raiding would be nice for items with a little something extra, but not a necessity.
As for pvp, my preference is the 3+ faction based rvr type system, but if you want a FFA PvP, there must be some kind of policing mechanism. Have the game keep track of killers and create a bounty for others to get. Maybe even have bands of NPCs roaming the lands looking for any that have a high enough murder count. (totally fine killing someone who attacks you first, also can attack anyone that is in unlawful status).
The problem with most FFA pvp games seem to be there are no repercussions for your actions. I don't really play a griefer type, but being a killer assassin with all the land against you (except for the places that accept your kind) but be awesome to play.
I guess I'll take a stab at this.
1.) How do you think developers can help to nurture a healthy community?
a.) I think if a rare drops then one should drop for each person in the group. There go the problems of ninja looting and the big focus on gear. Why? It would be dropping like crazy. Gear would have to be secondary, almost cosmetic purposes only. Get your stats from somewhere else. I don't go to pick up a shirt for my daughter from Macy's that has +6 int on it because she has a test next week.
b.) Get over the quest orgies. Click, click, clickety, click is only a hassle for most players and having to be on the same quests as others only adds another reason for players not to group with one another.
c.) FFA PvP is definitely out. Server vs Server only if there is going to be PvP.
d.) Yep I'm about to go "there", force grouping by making content too difficult for most people to solo. This is an MMORPG, you should be working with others towards a common goal not just running around with other people. Working a broker is solo, tradeskilling can be solo (I think it should be dependant upon others but w/e), decorating your house can be solo.
e.) Create an alternative path for solo players (or casuals) to progress if they only have 20-30 minutes of play time when they log in or need to afk off and on. Something like Guild Wars 2 "hearts" or DEs would be nice.
2.) What features do you think are necessary to the success of an MMO's community? (as defined by your experience with other MMO's)
a.) Give the players something FUN to do while they communicate with one another. Grouping in EQ was more about communication that it was about the actual combat, but the community IMHO was great. I haven't experienced anything like it since I first discovered it in 2001.
b.) Excellent guild tools. Guilds alone are nice, but you really have to have a system in place for players to be able to browse guilds and for guilds to manage their members (EQ2 has a great system IMHO).
c.) Crafting system that allows players to create meaningful items.
d.) Dungeons...TONS of em.
3.) How would you change or innovate current standard MMO features to promote a vibrant community?
I don't pretend to know the answer to this question. IF I did I certainly wouldn't be sharing it here on MMORPG forums. I would be including it into my business plan
I come from a long line of people who have moved from frontier to frontier trying to keep away from the rest of the world, so my definition of "healthy community" might be a little hard to distinguish from solo play.
In other words: don't assume that grouping, reems of communication and tight webs of interdependance are what everyone actually wants. Introverted and extraverted people have desires and motivations which are radically different and a "community" that is great for one extreme may be a nightmare to the other.
A complex, data-rich economy such as Eve's helps (although almost all games have their "merchant" playstyle wildly overpowered). Having focal points (quest hubs) that can draw people together, but you also need a reason why it's nice for strangers to bump into each other.
Beware of any mechanic that encourages spam - if you make guilds too important, people are going to get guild spammed; if you make grouping too essential there will be grouping spam ... nothing turns off your introverted players faster from the "community" than having strangers random messaging them. Remember that players will often play a mechanic they don't enjoy for the rewards, so be careful that you don't over-reward playstyles that people aren't actually enjoying.
So a "community" is only about PvP or are these just the ideas you had? I'm sure that you're not implying that a community is only about PvP. Or at least I THINK you're not saying that. But I agree with these ideas mostly. I just tend to think more PvE AND PvP when I think of a community.
I know you're not a fan of GW2, but I like how they've made other servers into the factions you fight against, thereby making your own server community your team of people you work WITH rather than AGAINST.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
How do you think developers can help to nurture a healthy community?
What features do you think are necessary to the success of an MMO's community? (as defined by your experience with other MMO's)
How would you change or innovate current standard MMO features to promote a vibrant community?
1
By being open, honest, intelligent, caring and capable themselves and in their communication. (Valve and CCP spring to mind)
2
Good desing of chat channels. For instance a help channel (Eve online). Make it clear from the start which channel is for what and don't make to many channels. People should use zone chat to talk to each other. Some games have so many chat channels only a handfull of people are on each or atleast people get that perception.
Zone chat, help chat, trade chat, guild chat, group chat. NO LFG chat, this should be in zone chat, it will make it much more social and busy; people grouping up, getting to know other in zone chat.
3
Grouping should give a benefit. For instance in Star Wars Galaxies (pre everything) people would group to farm creatures (and missions) for faster XP. This would go much faster in a group. You shouldn't FORCE people to group though, that sucks.
I hate doing some quests and all of a sudden you get this quest you need a group for. Grouping should be optional.
Also lighthearted (not much lose if group is bad or breaks up, see Star Wars Galaxies example) but for the more hardcore players serious business (raids and what not)
I completely agree with this statement, and many of you have said similar things. I haven't played Guild Wars 2, but one game I do know that rewards grouping together is Realm of the Mad God. This aspect of random grouping is definitely something that I've been looking a lot at lately.
I'd suggest that the first thing you determine is the meaning of "community", and then define the meaning of "healthy".
If you have a target audience, that will influence how a community is promoted, built and maintained. And if you mean a diverse reflection of humanity in the microcosm of a virtual world, you don't have to do much of anything except provide a space for interaction and people will do the rest.
Take a look at WoW's /Trade channel sometime in a major city and you have a great example of a thriving and lively (healthy) playerbase (community) filled with players of every stripe. You also have a lot of trolls that make life difficult for others. As a contrast, take a look at LOTRO's /Advice or /Trade channels and you'll find a quieter space with less going on. But what you find there is intelligent, courteous and encouraging.
Which of these is healthier than the other? It depends on what you mean.
Society needs to be fixed before ingame communities will be great.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Best community I ever played with was in FFXI where grouping was manditory. Being an asshat made it hard to get into groups as people would remember you. Since you HAD to play with others, socialization just occurred organically.
So, my answer t this question is forced grouping. Take the 'solo' out of the 'massively Multiplayer'. It's kind of like going to a party to only sit in the corner, ignoring everyone.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
This is an excellent suggestion, and I would point you towards Eve Online as a model to base it on. The interlinked nature of that economy definitely supports the multiplayer part of MMO. Eve Online could be a source of inspiration for a lot of aspects that build a strong linked community. Here are some to consider:
-FFA full loot PvP I'll leave for you to decide whether or not you want your game to be that cutthroat, but the group vs group fights that you could get with that (akin to the 2000+ person fights that Eve gets) could be a major supporting factor.
-For PvE, make temporary instances for bosses or raids that not everyone will do, i.e. not baked into the standard quest chain, akin to Eve's Incursion system. These are PvE events which CANNOT be soloed, period, or even really completed in a small gang. You need HUNDREDS of players working over a span of several hours to several days to take down one Eve incursion, and once an incursion is done it is DONE. Another one may spawn somewhere else eventually, or you could just wait it out if you don't care, but to beat one that forces players to band together to overcome the challenges.
-Fully ownable and modifiable territory by alliances, akin to Eve's null-security space. A single guild or corp should not be able to afford to do very much on their own unless they are very large (numbering over a hundred strong at least), but guilds/corps should be able to ally together and with their collective strength build their own mini-empire, giving them access to unique or more efficient income/resource extraction/crafting sources. To prevent older players from just building and building and building, a warfare and full PvP system may be required (again like in Eve) so that stuff can be destroyed, territory can be conquered and re-conquered, and only those who really think and plan properly can become masters of that area.
Obviously I'm an Eve fanatic, but for good reason; after playing (and beating most of) over 1000 games in my life of every known type on every known system within the last 15 years, the scope of things that well organized groups of players in Eve Online can do, and the true multiplayer nature of most of the community, is completely beyond anything I have ever seen or heard of, period. If you want to design an MMO without the "solo bubble" effect and really have a strong multiplayer community, Eve Online is hands down the best source of inspiration you will find at the moment.
Where's the any key?
Well I'm not looking to recreate EVE, but I do agree with a lot of what it has done for making MMO's feel massive. The player driven economy in EVE has certainly influenced some of my design choices. I've never heard of EVE's incursion system, although it sounds like an interesting concept. Is it at all like Guild Wars 2's dynamic events by chance? I suppose I'll look into it further.
Best community I ever experienced in an MMO was, in part, due to the design of the game. Players needed other players in order to get equipment, crafting supplies, buffs, healing, etc. There was a player economy rather than players being able to loot everything they needed. There were non-combat professions (doctors, entertainers, crafters) that could be developed separate from combat skills (people could choose one or the other or do both) and were a necessary part of the game.
How did this help to build community? 1. Players sometimes contacted other players in order to get the services needed. 2. Combat players had to take breaks from combat in order to get some of the services needed, which meant players standing around chatting and meeting other players.
Best way I've seen in MMOs to kill community? strict leveling system with players making their way from zone to zone as they level up....back to the game that had the best community I've ever seen in an MMO, there were skill trees that players earned the ability to unlock skills working the way up the tree until they ran out of AP but players did not "wear" levels and npcs did not have levels posted either although there were "hidden" levels to things in the environment. There were areas with easier and more difficult things to kill (and be killed by) but, overall, a new character could group with a nearly completed or "completed-template" character with both getting xp for kills (and the new character getting more than he or she would have if solo-ing.) This meant that guild members could leave the game for months and come back to rejoin the group in whatever combat was happening. In leveled games, I can meet another player and start playing with that person or I can invite a friend to play the game with me, but if either person plays when the other is not around there is the risk of "outleveling" each other and having the xp messed up if an attempt is made to do things in the game as a group again. This makes it difficult for guild members to support each other as, in order to do activities as a guild, everyone needs to be approximately the same level.
Edit: Went back and read some of the other responses....as far as "forcing" grouping, I prefer the idea of "encouraging" grouping.....If I'm forced to group in a game, I either risk having to sit around and hope for a group that is working on the same task or joining a lot of bad groups, either of which leads to frustration with the game. "Encouraging" grouping can be having "rewards" for grouping (as simple as gaining xp quicker) and having those parts of the game that can't be soloed (not parts that are required in order to develop the character/make it through any main story lines but "bosses" and "dungeons.")
Also, don't over instance the game because once people step into instances there's not usually a way for groups to grow or change while in the instance or players are stuck sitting around while the group leader leaves the instance and tries to find members to add to the group.
Side note, although it effects community too.....have other options besides straight quest line in the game for developing a character (either killing random stuff gives enough xp that it isn't a frustrating way to develop the character, or I've seen mission terminals where players could grab a couple of missions that would cause spawns but could also be "repeated"...although the spawn wouldn't necessarily occur in the exact same location).
1) Think of the whole server like a termite colony. Make sure that there are global tasks that many kinds of players can contribute to in their own way ( equal representation of combat and noncombat tasks) without direct competition for the mutual good of the server. Its important that players feel that they have contributed in their own way so these tasks should require huge amounts of players and resources to complete. There is nothing wrong with making these tasks very hard and require every skill in the game from combat to chopping wood to baking bread.
for instance why not allow players build a bridge to open a new cave( dungeon) on a cliff. The bridge can be defended while its being built, when its complete the dungeon becomes open to everyone. the bridge can be built by players and the building capacity can be buffed by players distributing cooking based goods. Combat players can help defend the bridge during its construction, and the wood has to come from the forest, iron parts made in the forge etc. When the dungeon is finally opened up, not only does it provide new combat for the combat players, but also new resources to noncombat players, Everyone feels good about accomplishing events such as these. Dont give away the content, make players earn it.
everyone comes away with a sense of accomplishment and the reward is the cave access.. something everyone can utilize.
2) make your game mechanics flow with good player behavior. see GW2. they have don a great job. Players helping other players is more important than phat l33t or experience. Make sure there are avenues to do this. Everyone being able to rez players is a good thing. Theres lots more!!!
3) Get rid of money. Money is killing our own world, why keeping putting it in games getting the same result. If we cant have utopia in games we have complete control over....there isnt much hope is there. rather if you want an item made, go collect the stuff and make an order through an order system and a crafter will make it for you. Be creative, no money is necessary. In nature systems feed off and regenerate eachother. Why cant they do it in a game. Heros dont need money.. they need someone take to make a sword out of this chunk of metal they found, they need someone to enchant it, they need an enemy to stick it into...they dont need to buy it at an auction house. Set up system that meets both the combat and crafting types half way. We need to make these worlds more principled than our own. Dont be afraid to lead by example.
4) Server based compeition is healthy competition. It promotes teamwork while provinging the necessary "Faceless enemy". You can combine this with number 1. Crafters can contribute to PVP!!! The three server model ill admit seems to be the best option available. Put some resources crafters need in pvp areas.
5) Maintain a presence: there is nothng wrong with three developers going into combat as superbeings every now and then gloating about it on these very boards. Maintain a presence on the boards. Doesnt matter if your popular or not! Stop being so diplomatic. Show that your humans like the rest of us ( well.. there may be a couple of robots here...). Tell me to screw off if you need to. Start a fight on the boards! You cant go wrong. blame everything on one guy on your team....
6) Get rid of the stats and disconnected views. They matter in ways most dont understand. If you want players to be connected to the world, they have to be able to see it as if was through their eyes in great detail. Your not supposed to see everything unless your a sattelite. Connect players back into the world. Its not that skyrim is so great, its that its first person, so you see all the detail. You just cant see it when your 50 feet away. Simple optics.
7) Do not discount the power of fluff. It is not a waste of resources. It makes your game alive and vibrant. Efficiency is the death of fun.
8) Get rid of exp and levels. They promote efficiency and efficiency is the bane of fun. Theres nothing wrong with players advancing, but make it interesting. Players will get to cap quickly anyhow, dont put them on that road. nobody quits mmos when they hit the cap. Not the good ones anyhow.
9) Make players build their forges, homes, spindels, weavers and the like. Make them community projects. give nothing away for free. its "content".
10) Remember voltron.. 5 cats make a robot. Thats what grouping should be like. 1 shared health bar (up to three players). Call it the link. no specific roles for each player. ( its self balancing at that number).
that should get you started!
I was actually going for more of SWG pre-cu feel than EVE. I really believe that all it needed was random generated events/content, that changed not only the landscape of differing planets but tied into the political system and faction/pvp as well.
I thoroughly enjoyed reading that!
You have some great concepts in there
With a guillotine.
My theme song.
I think that's one of my major turn-offs for GW2, and a pretty bad idea overall. I like having factions bumping into each other out in the open, mixing it up. I like knowing who I'm fighting, and having someone from the other side to hate. I like having the opportunity to stand out in my own faction, AND to be infamous to the other faction.
This, "let's everyone just get along and hug it out and not hurt each others' feelings" BS that GW2 is doing is weaksauce. And I say all this as someone who isn't particularly good in PvP. But I think there needs to be some danger out there in the world. GW2 screams "casual" to me, and honestly I think they're going to find that this won't build their community, but rather prevent it from being as good as it could be.
Have separate PvP and PvE servers.
Make the PvP servers open world.
Allow sieges to take place on ALL servers for those who want to participate.
Allow rewards for killing other players out in the open world.
Create a punishment system as a deterrent for rampant ganking.
^^^You can do everything above for the open world PvP part of the game, and STILL have cross-server realm vs realm PvP against the opposite faction if you want. Win-win for everyone.
GW2 dropped the ball with the way they set up their PvP, and eventually it will manifest itself into a weaker, not stronger, community.
A lot of my opinion has already been covered.
No game I have played to date had the community that SWG had, at least on my original server of Naritus. The people I met there through a few different guilds, and just out in the wilds were what made that game fun. I have played other games with those people, chatted with them outside gaming and kept touch with more than a few that I haven't gamed with since November of 2005. Most of those friendships were forged during the best time for that game which was pre Holo-Grind I say that because the CU and NGE were just the result of the holo grind.
I have a few things that stand out about that game that I think made the difference.
1. You made your own story, you made your own heroic persona. You didn't start the game as the last great hope for the world. You started as a schmuck, in the desert with a pocket knife just like everyone else from there you could be anything you wanted to be, a fearsome bounty hunter, a cool as the other side of the pillow commando(guess what I played), the doctor or dancer that cured peoples wounds or the chef that made the best Mandalorian Wine in the galaxy. That persona and freedom is part of what I think fostered the community that we had.
2. Crafting was king, outside of factories no two items were the same. Going with the above you could make a name for yourself outside of being a good dps, healer or tank. You could be the guy who made the sweetest rifles in the game, the doctor that had the best buffs, Or the guy that made the high end and good looking armors. Crafters relied each other, they relied on adventurers and vise versa. This fueled the player run economy. And as bad as I hate to say it item decay was also a big part of that.
3. Being able to carve out your own place in the world. Player cities, player housing, and player vendors. The ability to advertise your wares through the global market but people having to visit your vendor to pick up their items was admittedly a pain in the backside but it got folks exploring. There were lots of cities I would never had visited had it not been for that one ship part, or flamethrower that was on a vendor in BFE. People took lots of pride in building their towns, decorating their houses and PA halls.
4. The ability to change at will what your character is, looks like and does. This is a big one in my eyes. When you have 8 different characters for 8 different things you have less personally invested. This also includes the PVP factions, have as many as you like, but allow the person to switch sides without switching characters. Im not talking insta swap but a 1 - 2 day process of some sort. The one character per server thing was great for keeping people minding their manners as well.
5. Most importantly is the culmination of the above, in that to have a good community people have to invest in their characters. I think once folks see their online avatar as an extension of themselves, as who they would want to be in that MMO's setting, and as a part of the community instead of just another "toon" that is when you get a real true community.
On a side note PVP in SWG was awesome before the jedi showed up. 50+ vs 50+ in the desert between two cities was Epic.
Likely rambled on a bit. If you made it this far thanks for reading.
Things like what TSW is doing with the Secret War goes a long way. It doesn't have to be on facebook, it could be on whatever. The concept and design are golden.