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Why I worry about GW2: Dynamic events.
Dark_Skurai
Member Posts: 106
Starting off, I look forward to GW2, have it preordered, and although I honestly hate Arenanet for giving us three expansions to GW (after promising more) and the last one being placed and with them saying "Grind this, wait for the next one which will come out in a few years" I'm willing to give them another go.
That said, my main worry is the "dynamic quests" because it seems so much hinge on them. Sure, the game has PvP and PvE, but I've seen little to nothing concerning end game PvE, and... honestly, I have yet to see PvP work in the way that they are proposing it in the long run (battlegrounds and server v server = doesn't hook people).
I worry for two main reasons.
1. Every MMO becomes top heavy. The lower zones will eventually become somewhat barren, and the Dynamic quests rely on people being around to make them more spectacular. Not long into GW2's life this will happen.
2. Every MMO becomes top heavy. I know it's the same reason as before, but what I mean is, while Dynamic quests rely on lots of people, this is a double edged sword. The top level events will soon be well known, the parameters that govern them will become widely known, and frankly, they'll become easy as people do them their 5th, 6th, 7th etc.... time. It'll be yet another grind as people flood to the "big ones" that offer the best rewards, effecively ruining any sort of difficulty or feeling of accomplishment as the event is drowned in bodies and horrible latency.
So, just thought I'd put my thoughts. I haven't been following the dev blogs to closely, so, is arenanet going to adress these two issues?
Comments
New events are going to be continually added to the game right from launch, in all zones. What this basically means is that you'll be able to travel to earlier zones (which you haven't outleveled, btw) and experience new content you hadn't seen before. Othere MMOs get top-heaby because, as you level, you erect walls behind you shutting off the content of earlier zones as viable, fun gameplay. With the down-levelling and lack of a power-based gear-grind this won't be a factor.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Aw, I hadn't heard about the downleveling.
This brings up another issue though. Lack of reward. It's like saying LotRO could survive from it's achievements and well made zones alone, but it can't, there needs to be something dangling for players. This happened with WAR where they got to the cap and found that there was no real reason to continue playing because PvE and PvP both gave nothing special. Sure, it was still quite fun to play, but it felt hollow (same happened with SWTOR)
Valid concerns but there is no way to know how things will turn out. In GW2 they downlevel you to the area you are in. Not just the zone but the area inside that zone.
This means at level 80 you can go back to the starter zone and explore it for hidden DEs, jumping puzzles, or go to an area you hadn't explored before with that character, no matter what level area it is. It also means instead of people congregating at the top zones (where in other mmos it is the only place to go to get level appropriate rewards), people may go hang out where they think it is fun. Or try to find that rare DE in the hidden cave in the level 35 area, to see what the karma merchant that spawns after sells.
Or wandering around doing skill challenges, or going back and leveling with their level 10 buddy that just got the game etc.
What I am saying is that in other MMOs the higher areas are more populated because it is the only place for a max level character to go and get rewards. GW2 works differently so you can be anywhere and still get appropriate rewards.
Whether this works out well or not only time will tell.
1. Level scaling. Players at higher levels can utilize the entire world of DEs, they will still provide challenge and will continue to give currency rewards. No content is ever trivial, so it's much more likely that the lower-level zones will still maintain more population. The overall spread will be better than previous MMOs. You'll be able to help out new players and b
2. The power plateau means that no matter how long you are max level, ArenaNet will be able to maintain a fixed level of challenge. They can balance the events around players being highly skilled and knowledgeable...so events will be harder at first until we get really good...but once that happens, the challenge will always stay the same. Things don't get easier, because there's no stat creep or "tiers" of vertical advancement, and also because of the level scaling I mentioned above.
The whole game is endgame content...you just keep playing and experiencing new things, and they will keep adding more DEs and creating expansions. In short, unlike typical MMORPGs, this game is set up in such a way where content doesn't get used up...it continues to be challenging and viable and fun.
EDIT: This whole concept of, "players won't play a game without some carrot on a stick" has been discussed to death. It just isn't true. Players want a fun and engaging game, not some miserable slog with a little cookie at the end. There is one universal truth in video games...if it's a fun game, people will play it. There's no magic psychological formula that makes a game last, players just have to enjoy themselves. With all that said, there are plenty of rewards and advancement available in GW2...tons of depth the combat and professions so you can always find ways to refine and diversify your character. It's going to be just fine.
Lack of reward where? When you're down-levelled, you still get drops and rewards appropriate to your actual level, so you're not losing out by re-visiting earlier zones. There will be plenty of gear to be had at end-game, it just won't be mandatory gear you need to have to progress to the next level of mandatory gear you need to have to progress to... well, you know. The initial eight dungeons all have unique gear sets you can work for, and being able to get through the rather difficult explorable modes will provide anyone all the challenge they want.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I am slow on the post apparently....
To give you more info, if you are level 65 and go to an area where your level is throttled to 15, you will be still earning drops and rewards appropriate for a level 65. The dangling carrot for going back is either completionism, exploring for fun, looking for something you read on the wiki is very rare etc.
In the end if you don't find the DE's fun you really won't be playing the game very long anyway. So the original title is appropriate, much of PvE hinges on the DEs. Personally I found the DEs I played in the BWE to be very fun. Well most were, at least.
Aw, I hadn't heard about the downleveling.
This brings up another issue though. Lack of reward. It's like saying LotRO could survive from it's achievements and well made zones alone, but it can't, there needs to be something dangling for players. This happened with WAR where they got to the cap and found that there was no real reason to continue playing because PvE and PvP both gave nothing special. Sure, it was still quite fun to play, but it felt hollow (same happened with SWTOR)
Rewards are tied to your true level even when scaled down.I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Every MMO eventually becomes top heavy because once you get high level there's really nothing for you to do in lower level areas, except maybe doing to leftover quests for achievements and the like, and even those become easy and fast since you go around basically one shoting things.
Anet is trying to keep lower level areas relevant by de-leveling you when you go there so things are still a challenge, and making the rewards level bound, so if you go as a level 50 to a level 20 area you'll be deleveled to around level 20 (but still with your level 50 gear and skills unlocked, though), but the rewards you get (karma, money, XP and drops) will be similar to what you'd get by adventuring on a level 50 zone. It works for dungeons as well, each dungeon has a specific set unique to it, and that if you like the looks you can transmutate it to give it level 80 stats, for example, but you're deleveled to the dungeon's level so you'll still need a full group to get it. At least that's the theory, we'll see how good it works for real few months after release.
What can men do against such reckless hate?
Ah yes, and this leads into another type of carrot... the achievements. There will be enough achievements there to tempt even the laziest completionist in all of us, providing further incentive to revisit earlier zones .
I know they intend this to be a game where it's rewarding to roll alts and continually see things you missed before, but man... where am I going to find time for alts when it'll take forever to see all I can on one character?
Oderint, dum metuant.
Downscaling is your friend. You still get appropriate gear to your level, but don't one-shot mobs.
I wont worry about dynamic events because i will be too busy with WvWvW, in every other mmo i never play on pve servers so I doubt i will do any pve in gw2.
Did you play in the BWE? I had the exact same mindset as you but found myself PvE:ing because it was so damn fun
WvWvW will be my main focus though, but exploring and doing DE's was a blast for sure.
this sums most of it....
But keep in mind that: "Certain players will quit the game if they find out that there is no carrot on a stick" these players are of the so called Achiever cattegory. Which is a minorrity. But chances are these people will leave because they miss the smell of carrots.
For long term playabillity its just a matter of how much PvE stuff Arenanet adds to excisting and new zones on a regular base, if they don't people might leave the game till the next expansion pack arives. A good thing to know however is that because of the B2P fillosofy, GW2 will allways be welcoming back lost sons. Its a game you can leave behind for several months and still get back in, without the barier of a new sub, to find many of your old friends and even make some new.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
This is just so. The thing I found during the BWE is that I stopped caring about my level so much. I didn't look down to see if I'd leveled, because it didn't matter. The only time I thought about it was when I checked to see if the game thought it was a good idea for me to tackle the next leg of my story. In the world, it didn't matter what level I was unless I got over my head. If I ended up in a level ten event of fighting level ten guys, I was put on a level with them so the fight was still as it should have been. So every fight was interesting and challenging; what level I actually was didn't matter to me.
For a WoW example, I loved Night Elves. And I loved Ashenvale (I have no idea what it is like after Cata). I loved fighting the orcs trying to clear cut the place. They were bad news. How much more fun would the game have been if fighting those orcs had actually had some affect on the area, if they did more than stand around waiting for me to show up and kill them. If I felt like fighting them affected the game world, I'd have more of an incentive to fight them. And if I was always, despite being level 60, put at level 20ish to fight them, then I would never be overpowered for the content. I could go fight in the city of Stratholme and still later go fight for the land of my people. AndI would have.
I think a lot of people are in this same position. There is content that you enjoy, and there are places you enjoy seeing, but it become pointless to be there once you've level past it. It's a shame, and it feels like a waste to me. Again as the example, Ashenvale was beautiful and very large, with several interesting quest storylines. And when you reach level 30, it all becomes so much wasted game space, whether you ever went there at all or not. It would be both a complete waste of time as you get no adequate reward and the content would be far too easy. I am sure there are places other people in other games have really liked, and would visit again and again if there was anything there for them, in terms of rewards or challenge. I would have enjoyed playing in the swamp or Duskwood or any number of places, but there comes a time in a game like that when it becomes pointless and wasteful to do so.
Think about how many people feel the same way, and will keep going to the swamp in Kryta, or any number of places and events. If the whole world is fun there is no reason not to go back and see things again, or to go do some content in a place you've not visited before, because it will still be a challenge and it will still be interesting, and you get comensurate rewards so you aren't wasting your time.
Yes, games become top heavy, but I don't see that affecting populations in lower zones as drastically. Yes, people will spend more time in the higher level stuff, I'm sure, but there will be several times more people in lower level stuff than other games.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
I for one plan on 100% completion of the entire world, all races all zones on a single character thanks to the downleveling of content making things still fun and exciting.
Challenge Accepted!
Remember... all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more.
This is the first game to make me feel as if I might be in the same boat. The fact that level 80 me can go and finally finish that level 22 area I missed and get an appropriate reward for a level 80 upon completion of the zone is a huge bonus.
Rather than feeling they're forcing it as a cheap way to prolong subs or an easy form of content as it was in other MMOs (Hit max level? Reroll and do it all again in a slightly different zone!), I had an urge to uncover every hidden aspect of every area I'd visited just because there was just so much to discover. Including locations, puzzles, events, NPC personal stories and how the various events affected them. For myself, simply because I wanted to explore it all rather than because of any system rewarding me for it. The fact that there are systems in place that provide both tangible and implied rewards for completionists is just icing on the cake.
Initial reports of the games rewards systems had turned me off (or peoples slightly off interpretations of it), there were some implications that there weren't any actual gear upgrades or other physical rewards. I think that's been extremely exaggerated (or initially was months ago), as while playing I found upgrading my gear to be as satisfying as it was in any other game.
I think the disperity between gear levels is perhaps not so massive as to destroy the balance they've struck, but there's absolutely a satisfying gear progression. While my days of raiding 6 days a week on a familiar gear grind treadmill are behind me (that was *not* an adventure!), I do still love discovering a sparkely new bow or sword, and I was not disappointed with this in GW2.
Regardless of which systems I thought would be necessary for my dream MMO, the systems they have here (which weren't even on my list) work perfectly for one thing: Making me feel as if anywhere I went, or anything I did turned into a satisfying adventure. While in other MMOs I was constantly waiting for the adventure to begin (in the meantime I'd go kill 10 elder treemen). I don't think I'd be able to discover everything on just my initial sweep.
On top of all that, they've laid the perfect groundwork for future expansion and content with their level scaling system. I can't wait to see how they take advantage of that.