If blizzard made a sandbox it would have 8mill+ subs
Not likely......many of the 10+ million subscribers WOW has didn't just come out of thin air. Many of these folks were formerly playing other casual games in other casual generes (Consoles, FPS, RTS, and other single player experiences)
The reason they migrated to WOW was because Blizzard made their MMO experience fit their schedules & preferences by changing the traditional MMO template into something more fitting with their previous gaming experiences.
The guy who came home after a 12 hour work day to put the blinders on for 30 minutes or so in a FPS match is now running a 30 minute Heroic run or Battleground. If a dungeon crawl in WOW took 2 hours to coordinate group members & finish the dungeon, he wouldn't be playing WOW.
The girl who has to be preparted to stop whatever it is she is doing to take care of kids or other responsibilities around the house is playing WOW because she can solo the entire game and has the ability to set her own schedule. If WOW required you to depend on a group (and have that group depend on you) in order to progress in the game, she wouldn't be playing WOW.
Point being, just because Blizzard creates a quality sandbox game, doesn't change the fact that only so many people have the flexibility & desire to commit themselves to a MMO gaming experience that requires more time & dedication to realize progress & have "fun".
Agreed.
Sandbox game would never get numbers WoW had.
That's why Blizzard have kept speeding up leveling process, was tunneling experience into instances more and more, not spending much resources into bringing new features into open world that would not also speed up, casualize and make it's experience more conveniant.
+ focus most of WoW development in dungeons, raids, arenas + ways and mechanics to put more people into those instanced gameplay more easily and conveniantly.
Remember housing or guild houses that were asked since day 1 from Blizzard and were always "we consider making them in future" - lol.
Without this WoW would not exceed 3-4 millions of players imho.
Of course that would mean I would stick with WoW much longer propably.
Still Blizzard don't care about me (I prefer mmorpg's that require more dedication even when I don't have nearly as much time for gaming as I had when I was for example in high school or college - as adult I still prefer games that require dedication and time) Blizzard care about more customers (which is perfectly normal) even if that meant angrying and alienating part of it's Vanilla WoW playerbase.
If I had to shoot I would say that HIT AAA sanbox with TPP gameplay in fantasy setting - would have potential of getting 2 millions max.
The problem is the numbers. You don't need 2 million players to have a successful sandbox game, if the game itself is made well. SWG pre-cu only had like 350k to 400k and the game was alive on every server.
6 million? No. 20 million? Yes, and expect more than 100k subbers too, even at around 200k that still seems low. Remember with the example we're talking atleast 5 years of a loyal playerbase of even lets say 100k. so 100k x15 is 1.5 mill a month aye? x12... 18 mill give or take... times 5 years is 90 million dollars. Thats without box sales, and at a pretty small player base.
100% retention and zero churn for 5 years? Is this an MMO or a cult?
Somewhere between myself any MR. BadSpocks debate you must have missed the part where that 100k is the LOYAL fan base that Sandboxes tend to keep. I would assume a AAA title at 20 mil for production would sell somewhere around 400-600k boxes, but the LOYAL fan base, the ones that sub for those 5 years entirely, we summed up to about 100k just for a fair number. Surely you would have commers and goers, but the month to month subers, i think 100k is a fair number.
This is a false perception/interpretation, because it is based on Data from a time when there were much less MMO players or people on the Internet coupled with the fact that no good Sandbox has been put to the market in the mean time.
Today there are Billions of people on the Internet compared to 15 years ago, and tens if not hundreds of millions of MMO players compered to the hundreds of thousands 15 years ago.
Lol, why did Spock and i have a good discussion, now it's turning.... not good?
I wasn't saying this is 15 years ago.
I HIGHLY doubt there is HUNDREDS of millions of MMO players. I would personaly guess about 50 mil?
If there is 50 mil, and a HUGE ip name backed by one of the biggest gaming producers, being developed by one of the best rpg game devs only sold 2.4 million?
Spock and I were discussing WHY there hasn't been a main stream sandbox put into effect, and the reason we BOTH came up to was INVESTORS.
NOT how many players there are, or even coming up with factual data, but throwing out numbers that for the most part seemed realistic.
Go look at our discussion please, it should explain itself.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
The problem is the numbers. You don't need 2 million players to have a successful sandbox game, if the game itself is made well. SWG pre-cu only had like 350k to 400k and the game was alive on every server.
Of course you don't need.
Still I believe that many devs & investors have wet dreams of fat millions of players.
I start to wonder when if ever industry will simply realize that aiming for that kind of result in mmorpg genre lack sanity and start to construct business plans for much smaller numbers + start looking for diffrent investors - ones that invest money with longer capital returns.
So are you the almighty godfather of MMOS? Why does anyone have to prove anything to you? Are you some multi-millionaire investor, because last time I checked investors with large capital go about doing their headhunting by different means, not trolling forums.
Nope. Just throwing a challenge. Calling certain posters out on their claims. They love to insinuate that the reason why people don't like the recent MMORPGs is because deep down they love sandboxes, the game didn't have enough sandbox features in it, or that sandoxes require a refined taste (the restaurant vs fast food example), or that devs are just plain greedy or stupid and don't know what they're doing.Some of them are trolling, some of them aren't. I'm calling them out.
The only challenge I see is your failure to recognize all the massively popular sandbox games that have been brought up in this thread.When a few guys make a sandbox mod out of a 2009 fps (DayZ) and its popularity eclipses current and upcoming multi million dollar themeparks, I don't really see any other need to try and prove your claims false.
This, this and this.
A nice attempt at trolling OP, but do you really believe in what you wrote? The genre is crying out for a GOOD sandbox, not a half assed, shoddy, broken one. There's a reason EVE has outlived every other MMO on the market - good developers, good ethos, good taste, and it offers something no other game has.
DayZ isn't any more a sandbox game than Skyrim. It's an MMOFPS. DayZ is an indication that Defiance is likely to be successful, not that there is a large sandbox MMORPG audience just waiting for the 'right game'.
** edit ** It's also just as likely to indicate there is lots of interest in a zombie based MMOFPS, which would be pretty cool.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
6 million? No. 20 million? Yes, and expect more than 100k subbers too, even at around 200k that still seems low. Remember with the example we're talking atleast 5 years of a loyal playerbase of even lets say 100k. so 100k x15 is 1.5 mill a month aye? x12... 18 mill give or take... times 5 years is 90 million dollars. Thats without box sales, and at a pretty small player base.
100% retention and zero churn for 5 years? Is this an MMO or a cult?
Somewhere between myself any MR. BadSpocks debate you must have missed the part where that 100k is the LOYAL fan base that Sandboxes tend to keep. I would assume a AAA title at 20 mil for production would sell somewhere around 400-600k boxes, but the LOYAL fan base, the ones that sub for those 5 years entirely, we summed up to about 100k just for a fair number. Surely you would have commers and goers, but the month to month subers, i think 100k is a fair number.
This is a false perception/interpretation, because it is based on Data from a time when there were much less MMO players or people on the Internet coupled with the fact that no good Sandbox has been put to the market in the mean time.
Today there are Billions of people on the Internet compared to 15 years ago, and tens if not hundreds of millions of MMO players compered to the hundreds of thousands 15 years ago.
Lol, why did Spock and i have a good discussion, now it's turning.... not good?
I wasn't saying this is 15 years ago.
I HIGHLY doubt there is HUNDREDS of millions of MMO players. I would personaly guess about 50 mil?
If there is 50 mil, and a HUGE ip name backed by one of the biggest gaming producers, being developed by one of the best rpg game devs only sold 2.4 million?
Spock and I were discussing WHY there hasn't been a main stream sandbox put into effect, and the reason we BOTH came up to was INVESTORS.
NOT how many players there are, or even coming up with factual data, but throwing out numbers that for the most part seemed realistic.
Go look at our discussion please, it should explain itself.
My comments were not aimed at your personally. But rather to the assertion as I read it in that reply, i did read more of the discussion after I posted, sorry if I sound agressive :P
I like to take under account the evolution and history of the genre and do not come to conclusions just based on the present perception of things, this is why when I saw that reply (without having read all of the discussion) it kinds promted a response.
I agree that Investors play a big role in the reason why there have not been any AAA Sandbox games as well, agree to your and BadSpock's conclusion on that aspect.
The point I was puting forth in my reply is that because of the stated facts, we simply do not know how successfull a present day AAA Sandbox could be.
Understanding the cautious nature of calculating Risks of Investors on the other hand, it creates a vicious circle and the only breakthrough would be the peioneer willing to take the risk to make such a game, and when it proves to be a success as many of us players think, then the rest of the Investors will follow sheepishly in to the flow for an opportunity to make a buck too.
It is just sad for me to see how willingly Humans prefer to stay in ignorance by fear of losing something. Yet that is another story.
Cheers!
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
DayZ isn't any more a sandbox game than Skyrim. It's an MMOFPS. DayZ is an indication that Defiance is likely to be successful, not that there is a large sandbox MMORPG audience just waiting for the 'right game'.
** edit ** It's also just as likely to indicate there is lots of interest in a zombie based MMOFPS, which would be pretty cool.
Well it is even only partiall MMO kind of FPS imo.
It has persistant-like world and more persistant characters, but it servers have very small player cap, like 50 per server?
Half-way between multiplayer and mmo imo.
Well on the other hand definition of 'mmo' is changing so maybe nowadays that can pass for fully fledged mmo. (not difrected at yu lizardbones - just random thought)
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Today it is higher, so while you may doubt my words, it does not mean that my statement was wrong
Cheers!
it's a 100 million and 80. hundreds of millions requires a least two of a 100 million.
LOL...semantics.. But, if you take under account 2 years of growth, from 2010 to 2012, it meets your criteria and still maintains my statement as true.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Skyrim is a themepark.It's a bunch of themepark rides (dungeons and quests) set up by the developer. The player doesn't change them (ie it lacks "sand".)
Open world doesn't make something a sandbox. Sandboxes are about player authorship -- the player takes part in creating the experience.
If WOW's levelled zones were suddenly auto-level-locked to whatever level you were, that wouldn't magically make WOW a sandbox. Fixed content authored by devs means a game is themepark -- the devs have created rides and you will ride those rides. Maybe not necessarily in a linear order, but you're not going to change the rides much because the rides were made for you, they were authored by the devs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Skyrim is a themepark.It's a bunch of themepark rides (dungeons and quests) set up by the developer. The player doesn't change them (ie it lacks "sand".)
Open world doesn't make something a sandbox. Sandboxes are about player authorship -- the player takes part in creating the experience.
Let me tell you about this thing called MODs and how the TES games have the single largest modding community on the planet with near 1 million people enjoying it...and how Bethesda actually works with them and provides tools and tutorials on how to make them...
See, SWG for example provided no such thing as what you speak of until well after release...it also means that games like City of Heroes and Champions Online are sandbox games because of the tools provided that allow player made content. and if I really really want to take what you said loosely..."the player takes part in creating the experience"...all MMOs and RPGs are sandboxes...because its up to YOU how you take part in the game.
I saw people in WoW doing 100% role playing all the time they are on...even setting up shop in Ogrimarr selling items. Doesnt that make WoW a sandbox for him? Yep...
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Skyrim is a themepark.It's a bunch of themepark rides (dungeons and quests) set up by the developer. The player doesn't change them (ie it lacks "sand".)
Open world doesn't make something a sandbox. Sandboxes are about player authorship -- the player takes part in creating the experience.
Let me tell you about this thing called MODs and how the TES games have the single largest modding community on the planet with near 1 million people enjoying it...and how Bethesda actually works with them and provides tools and tutorials on how to make them...
See, SWG for example provided no such thing as what you speak of until well after release...it also means that games like City of Heroes and Champions Online are sandbox games because of the tools provided that allow player made content. and if I really really want to take what you said loosely..."the player takes part in creating the experience"...all MMOs and RPGs are sandboxes...because its up to YOU how you take part in the game.
I saw people in WoW doing 100% role playing all the time they are on...even setting up shop in Ogrimarr selling items. Doesnt that make WoW a sandbox for him? Yep...
Being able to create mods for a game does not make that game a sandbox game. A sandbox game is a game in which the players can use elements of the environment, resources, mechanics in the game to change the game experience (IE taking over a region of space in EvE online, building infrastructure in that region and then renting out solar systems to players). It has nothing to do with pre-compiled code or the ability to make modifications to that code.
It could work if an existing game server with a persistent world allowed the creation of code peices by players that could be injected into the game to change the experience but Skyrim doesn't allow that.
Skyrim is a themepark.It's a bunch of themepark rides (dungeons and quests) set up by the developer. The player doesn't change them (ie it lacks "sand".)
Open world doesn't make something a sandbox. Sandboxes are about player authorship -- the player takes part in creating the experience.
Let me tell you about this thing called MODs and how the TES games have the single largest modding community on the planet with near 1 million people enjoying it...and how Bethesda actually works with them and provides tools and tutorials on how to make them...
See, SWG for example provided no such thing as what you speak of until well after release...it also means that games like City of Heroes and Champions Online are sandbox games because of the tools provided that allow player made content. and if I really really want to take what you said loosely..."the player takes part in creating the experience"...all MMOs and RPGs are sandboxes...because its up to YOU how you take part in the game.
I saw people in WoW doing 100% role playing all the time they are on...even setting up shop in Ogrimarr selling items. Doesnt that make WoW a sandbox for him? Yep...
Being able to create mods for a game does not make that game a sandbox game. A sandbox game is a game in which...
it doesnt matter what your opinion of sandbox games is...I am replying to someone who is giving HIS definition of it which I refuted directly. Deal...
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Skyrim is a themepark.It's a bunch of themepark rides (dungeons and quests) set up by the developer. The player doesn't change them (ie it lacks "sand".)
Open world doesn't make something a sandbox. Sandboxes are about player authorship -- the player takes part in creating the experience.
Let me tell you about this thing called MODs and how the TES games have the single largest modding community on the planet with near 1 million people enjoying it...and how Bethesda actually works with them and provides tools and tutorials on how to make them...
See, SWG for example provided no such thing as what you speak of until well after release...it also means that games like City of Heroes and Champions Online are sandbox games because of the tools provided that allow player made content. and if I really really want to take what you said loosely..."the player takes part in creating the experience"...all MMOs and RPGs are sandboxes...because its up to YOU how you take part in the game.
I saw people in WoW doing 100% role playing all the time they are on...even setting up shop in Ogrimarr selling items. Doesnt that make WoW a sandbox for him? Yep...
Being able to create mods for a game does not make that game a sandbox game. A sandbox game is a game in which...
it doesnt matter what your opinion of sandbox games is...I am replying to someone who is giving HIS definition of it which I refuted directly. Deal...
Take it to private messages if you want a private converstation. You made what I believe is an incorrect statement about a game I have played, on a forum of which I am a member. Deal...
Skyrim is a themepark.It's a bunch of themepark rides (dungeons and quests) set up by the developer. The player doesn't change them (ie it lacks "sand".)
Skyrim is a Hybrid of Themepark and Sandbox. You dont have to do those quest to experience the game. You dont have to go into any dungeons. You dont have to join the Stormcloaks or the Theives Guild or any other faction in order to even progress.
The "sand" is the open choices you are allowed to make in how your character lives THEIR life. Nothing is scripted, directed or making you do something.
Open world doesn't make something a sandbox. Sandboxes are about player authorship -- the player takes part in creating the experience.
In Skyrim you ARE the author of your own experience. You create your adventure with the tools/toys given within the game
If WOW's levelled zones were suddenly auto-level-locked to whatever level you were, that wouldn't magically make WOW a sandbox. Fixed content authored by devs means a game is themepark -- the devs have created rides and you will ride those rides. Maybe not necessarily in a linear order, but you're not going to change the rides much because the rides were made for you, they were authored by the devs.
Its not the "rides" in a game that make it a Themepark so much as it is how linear and restricted you experience them
Sanboxes arent only about the content itself and what you can do to/with it, but the CHOICE of when, where and how you experience it
Themeparks strictly direct the when, where and how
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Skyrim is a themepark.It's a bunch of themepark rides (dungeons and quests) set up by the developer. The player doesn't change them (ie it lacks "sand".)
Open world doesn't make something a sandbox. Sandboxes are about player authorship -- the player takes part in creating the experience.
Let me tell you about this thing called MODs and how the TES games have the single largest modding community on the planet with near 1 million people enjoying it...and how Bethesda actually works with them and provides tools and tutorials on how to make them...
See, SWG for example provided no such thing as what you speak of until well after release...it also means that games like City of Heroes and Champions Online are sandbox games because of the tools provided that allow player made content. and if I really really want to take what you said loosely..."the player takes part in creating the experience"...all MMOs and RPGs are sandboxes...because its up to YOU how you take part in the game.
I saw people in WoW doing 100% role playing all the time they are on...even setting up shop in Ogrimarr selling items. Doesnt that make WoW a sandbox for him? Yep...
Being able to create mods for a game does not make that game a sandbox game. A sandbox game is a game in which...
it doesnt matter what your opinion of sandbox games is...I am replying to someone who is giving HIS definition of it which I refuted directly. Deal...
Take it to private messages if you want a private converstation. You made what I believe is an incorrect statement about a game I have played, on a forum of which I am a member. Deal...
You took your PERSONAL opinion of what a sandbox game is to refute something said to someone ELSES OPINION of what a sandbox game is.
If you want to become part of a conversation...read it and stay in context. Deal...
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Let me tell you about this thing called MODs and how the TES games have the single largest modding community on the planet with near 1 million people enjoying it...and how Bethesda actually works with them and provides tools and tutorials on how to make them...
See, SWG for example provided no such thing as what you speak of until well after release...it also means that games like City of Heroes and Champions Online are sandbox games because of the tools provided that allow player made content. and if I really really want to take what you said loosely..."the player takes part in creating the experience"...all MMOs and RPGs are sandboxes...because its up to YOU how you take part in the game.
I saw people in WoW doing 100% role playing all the time they are on...even setting up shop in Ogrimarr selling items. Doesnt that make WoW a sandbox for him? Yep...
Are you serious?
A mod isn't the game. The core game is a themepark.
Much like if someone created a WOW mod that allowed players to build a house and customize it in great detail. WOW would still be a themepark in spite of that, because its gameplay is predominantly static dev-authored rides.
Otherwise WOW *would* be a sandbox by the simple fact that you can mod the thing!
The core of CoX is still a themepark, even though it has a sandbox feature (architect.) Much like how WOW contains sandbox elements (players controlling world objectives) but those elements aren't the core experience so the game is considered a themepark.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Far too many posts to have to read in one day... but first things first, thank you OP. Though I disagree, I'm glad the debate is raging.
The problem with most of the arguments here is the abundance of metaphor. Sandbox and themepark is not fast food, minecraft, or flying spaghetti monsters. And there is no mythical mass of sandbox players... they exist. They have previously, and could continue to fill working sandbox worlds. I played Ultima Online. This group created some of the most interesting lore and the most respectful guild rivalries I have ever seen. I played pre-NGE SWG. The player towns, skill and resource harvesting systems are unrivaled. But I will grant a partial concession, a "massive" world needs a larger group of subscribers. Sandbox players cannot fill the world alone. When the hype for a game is over, its hard to maintain RP communities (even if they hang on for years to come).
But lets let go of sandbox and themepark terms and call it what it is. A themepark MMO is a MMO-video game, a sandbox is an MMO-roleplaying game.
Themeparks are being made for two reasons:
1. Video games sell.
2. Role-playing games dont.
"The MMO with the most potential is I think a themepark/sandbox hybrid, that manages to use the best elements of both design paths in an organic way." - Cutthecrap #276
True. The group of people that wants a free-form role-playing experience are willing to get that from a themepark MMO. We just need a dev to put the systems in place. I think there are a few important sandbox-style mechanics for my play style.
A player run-economy
An open skill system
Decorative content and emotes
Player Housing and Cities
Optional PvP systems or safe-zones
Any of this content can be included in today's MMOs and much of it is as part of the "MMO package". New systems could even push that experience further. Guild Wars 2 has some great innovations in questing systems, but unfortunately lacks what I want in gameplay.
The reason we grasp for straws (Minecraft, EvE, DayZ and even WOW) is that the mainstream games including these features died with SWG-NGE. There is no telling what a proper game incorporating both playstyles would do in sales or reception. It's just not being done.
"This is another great point. Sandbox players are a market that will pay you a sub fee (or whatever) for YEARS, not just a few months after release. We build communities and we make that game our home." - MindTrigger
Exactly. Sometimes it's hard to imagine why devs wouldn't create worlds where they could benifit from both playstyles. One that starts big and declines quickly and another that will start small and maintain over several years.
"As for why it hasn't been done yet, well that's easy. Corporations are machines, and their only obligation and goals are to provide the shareholders with profits using as little risk as possible." - Mindtrigger
Right in part. They do require profits and creating MMO video games is a safe bet. MMO role-playing games have shown that they are much harder to keep going. The best examples (UO and SWG) have buckled under the very systems that have made them unique MMO experiences.
For UO it was the downfall of the player economy and housing system. Add in a rushed introduction of Trammel for the players that complain about PKs and you end up with slipping loyalties. Lots of those great RP establishments were lost in Fellucia along with the community supporting them. Dev fail.
SWG had it's share of fan-service. But the problems began in the open skill set. They were constantly nerfing and de-nerfing combos. The skills were never fully balanced and many trees didn't work at some stage or another. After the huge loss of players to EQ2 and WOW, this was the main reason the level/class system was implemented.
OP is wrong. Role-players want open gaming worlds and we are sitting on our hands till it comes along... but, with the best examples of those worlds buckling under the systems that make them open gaming worlds, what is supposed to convince devs implement them?
Being able to create mods for a game does not make that game a sandbox game. A sandbox game is a game in which the players can use elements of the environment, resources, mechanics in the game to change the game experience (IE taking over a region of space in EvE online, building infrastructure in that region and then renting out solar systems to players). It has nothing to do with pre-compiled code or the ability to make modifications to that code.
It could work if an existing game server with a persistent world allowed the creation of code peices by players that could be injected into the game to change the experience but Skyrim doesn't allow that.
Yes, exactly.
Although to be fair, mods are a sandbox feature.
But as I said in my prior post: individual features don't make a game sandbox or themepark. It's the core gameplay which determines that.
WOW is considered a themepark because the core gameplay is themepark features, despite the fact that you can mod it.
Skyrim is considered a themepark because the core gameplay is themepark features, despite the fact that you can mod it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?
How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...
Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).
Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."
Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.
Minecraft says hello! (and Minecraft also says that Dredphyre likes themeparks as well..room for both to exist)
A mod isn't the game. The core game is a themepark.
Much like if someone created a WOW mod that allowed players to build a house and customize it in great detail. WOW would still be a themepark in spite of that, because its gameplay is predominantly static dev-authored rides.
Otherwise WOW *would* be a sandbox by the simple fact that you can mod the thing!
The core of CoX is still a themepark, even though it has a sandbox feature (architect.) Much like how WOW contains sandbox elements (players controlling world objectives) but those elements aren't the core experience so the game is considered a themepark.
SEMANTICS.
Now you are down to stating something can only be sandbox or themepark if the core is it.
Well guess what, SKYRIM is sandbox at its CORE because right from the very start I can go anywhere do anything and not be limited by having to follow the story. The CORE is designed to be open. You are NOT forced nor is there a wall you must walk along. AND mods are PART OF THE CORE OF THE DESIGN and has been since Oblivion was released which is why Bethesda was WORKING with the mod community on the design tools DURING the making of the game...lol. They even PAID Steam to work with the modding community to have a MOD shop up and running at release.
So here is a second post with DIRECT refutes to the argument you posted...So please, come back with yet ANOTHER change to how you frame the argument...perhaps throw yet ANOTHER part of the definition of what sandbox or themepark in to lend credit to what you are saying...that can be shot down as well...
The idea of what a sandbox is is not limted, it covers a broad enough range that this can be dragged out for another 20 or so pages with nothing being settled on because it can be twisted so many ways that we can dance around for a week because no amount of spin from you is going to change the genre TES games are in from its millions of fans...nor change the fact that they have been called sandbox games for 10 years...something a simple search will provide plenty of articles showing the gaming industry is laughing at you right now.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Now you are down to stating something can only be sandbox or themepark if the core is it.
Well guess what, SKYRIM is sandbox at its CORE because right from the very start I can go anywhere do anything and not be limited by having to follow the story. The CORE is designed to be open. You are NOT forced nor is there a wall you must walk along. AND mods are PART OF THE CORE OF THE DESIGN and has been since Oblivion was released which is why Bethesda was WORKING with the mod community on the design tools DURING the making of the game...lol. They even PAID Steam to work with the modding community to have a MOD shop up and running at release.
So here is a second post with DIRECT refutes to the argument you posted...So please, come back with yet ANOTHER change to how you frame the argument...perhaps throw yet ANOTHER part of the definition of what sandbox or themepark in to lend credit to what you are saying...that can be shot down as well...
The idea of what a sandbox is is not limted, it covers a broad enough range that this can be dragged out for another 20 or so pages with nothing being settled on because it can be twisted so many ways that we can dance around for a week because no amount of spin from you is going to change the genre TES games are in from its millions of fans...nor change the fact that they have been called sandbox games for 10 years...something a simple search will provide plenty of articles showing the gaming industry is laughing at you right now.
'Sandbox' and 'open world' are actually different things but that doesn't stop the marketing department of trying to make them the same for GTA (first offender) and Elder Scrolls (who took it to the next level).
Unless the mods change the game completely (this is possible), the mods we have seen come out so far doesn't make GTA/ES a 'sandbox' game.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I thinks its stretching a little to say mods are related to the classification of a sandbox game. An average gamer doesnt create mods for games, the entirety of their experience is influenced by their ingame experience, any mod is entirely transparent to the user and each mod is in itself a different game.
As an example I could create a mod of a game that increased the level range for that game. If the game was a themepark game and I invited some people with no knowledge of the previous unmodded game to their mind it would still be a themepark game.
If instead I created a different mod which allowed players to take over parts of the game, economy, to restrict access of others players to resources and features then the previous game which was themepark is now sandbox. Not because its modded but because it allows players to change the gameplay of others.
Comments
The problem is the numbers. You don't need 2 million players to have a successful sandbox game, if the game itself is made well. SWG pre-cu only had like 350k to 400k and the game was alive on every server.
Lol, why did Spock and i have a good discussion, now it's turning.... not good?
I wasn't saying this is 15 years ago.
I HIGHLY doubt there is HUNDREDS of millions of MMO players. I would personaly guess about 50 mil?
If there is 50 mil, and a HUGE ip name backed by one of the biggest gaming producers, being developed by one of the best rpg game devs only sold 2.4 million?
Spock and I were discussing WHY there hasn't been a main stream sandbox put into effect, and the reason we BOTH came up to was INVESTORS.
NOT how many players there are, or even coming up with factual data, but throwing out numbers that for the most part seemed realistic.
Go look at our discussion please, it should explain itself.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Of course you don't need.
Still I believe that many devs & investors have wet dreams of fat millions of players.
I start to wonder when if ever industry will simply realize that aiming for that kind of result in mmorpg genre lack sanity and start to construct business plans for much smaller numbers + start looking for diffrent investors - ones that invest money with longer capital returns.
DayZ isn't any more a sandbox game than Skyrim. It's an MMOFPS. DayZ is an indication that Defiance is likely to be successful, not that there is a large sandbox MMORPG audience just waiting for the 'right game'.
** edit **
It's also just as likely to indicate there is lots of interest in a zombie based MMOFPS, which would be pretty cool.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
My comments were not aimed at your personally. But rather to the assertion as I read it in that reply, i did read more of the discussion after I posted, sorry if I sound agressive :P
I like to take under account the evolution and history of the genre and do not come to conclusions just based on the present perception of things, this is why when I saw that reply (without having read all of the discussion) it kinds promted a response.
I agree that Investors play a big role in the reason why there have not been any AAA Sandbox games as well, agree to your and BadSpock's conclusion on that aspect.
The point I was puting forth in my reply is that because of the stated facts, we simply do not know how successfull a present day AAA Sandbox could be.
Understanding the cautious nature of calculating Risks of Investors on the other hand, it creates a vicious circle and the only breakthrough would be the peioneer willing to take the risk to make such a game, and when it proves to be a success as many of us players think, then the rest of the Investors will follow sheepishly in to the flow for an opportunity to make a buck too.
It is just sad for me to see how willingly Humans prefer to stay in ignorance by fear of losing something. Yet that is another story.
Cheers!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Well it is even only partiall MMO kind of FPS imo.
It has persistant-like world and more persistant characters, but it servers have very small player cap, like 50 per server?
Half-way between multiplayer and mmo imo.
Well on the other hand definition of 'mmo' is changing so maybe nowadays that can pass for fully fledged mmo. (not difrected at yu lizardbones - just random thought)
And FYI,
in 2010, the estimated MMO population was at 180 Million.
http://current.com/participate/vc2/92368016_mmo-future-shock.htm
Today it is higher, so while you may doubt my words, it does not mean that my statement was wrong
Cheers!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
it's a 100 million and 80. hundreds of millions requires a least two of a 100 million.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
LOL...semantics..
But, if you take under account 2 years of growth, from 2010 to 2012, it meets your criteria and still maintains my statement as true. 
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Skyrim is a themepark. It's a bunch of themepark rides (dungeons and quests) set up by the developer. The player doesn't change them (ie it lacks "sand".)
Open world doesn't make something a sandbox. Sandboxes are about player authorship -- the player takes part in creating the experience.
If WOW's levelled zones were suddenly auto-level-locked to whatever level you were, that wouldn't magically make WOW a sandbox. Fixed content authored by devs means a game is themepark -- the devs have created rides and you will ride those rides. Maybe not necessarily in a linear order, but you're not going to change the rides much because the rides were made for you, they were authored by the devs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Let me tell you about this thing called MODs and how the TES games have the single largest modding community on the planet with near 1 million people enjoying it...and how Bethesda actually works with them and provides tools and tutorials on how to make them...
See, SWG for example provided no such thing as what you speak of until well after release...it also means that games like City of Heroes and Champions Online are sandbox games because of the tools provided that allow player made content. and if I really really want to take what you said loosely..."the player takes part in creating the experience"...all MMOs and RPGs are sandboxes...because its up to YOU how you take part in the game.
I saw people in WoW doing 100% role playing all the time they are on...even setting up shop in Ogrimarr selling items. Doesnt that make WoW a sandbox for him? Yep...
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
The sandbox crowd is not a myth. Them agreeing on what sandbox means, is.
Being able to create mods for a game does not make that game a sandbox game. A sandbox game is a game in which the players can use elements of the environment, resources, mechanics in the game to change the game experience (IE taking over a region of space in EvE online, building infrastructure in that region and then renting out solar systems to players). It has nothing to do with pre-compiled code or the ability to make modifications to that code.
It could work if an existing game server with a persistent world allowed the creation of code peices by players that could be injected into the game to change the experience but Skyrim doesn't allow that.
it doesnt matter what your opinion of sandbox games is...I am replying to someone who is giving HIS definition of it which I refuted directly. Deal...
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Take it to private messages if you want a private converstation. You made what I believe is an incorrect statement about a game I have played, on a forum of which I am a member. Deal...
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
You took your PERSONAL opinion of what a sandbox game is to refute something said to someone ELSES OPINION of what a sandbox game is.
If you want to become part of a conversation...read it and stay in context. Deal...
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I am pretty sure if you replied to the OP, you got trolled.
Are you serious?
A mod isn't the game. The core game is a themepark.
Much like if someone created a WOW mod that allowed players to build a house and customize it in great detail. WOW would still be a themepark in spite of that, because its gameplay is predominantly static dev-authored rides.
Otherwise WOW *would* be a sandbox by the simple fact that you can mod the thing!
The core of CoX is still a themepark, even though it has a sandbox feature (architect.) Much like how WOW contains sandbox elements (players controlling world objectives) but those elements aren't the core experience so the game is considered a themepark.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yes, exactly.
Although to be fair, mods are a sandbox feature.
But as I said in my prior post: individual features don't make a game sandbox or themepark. It's the core gameplay which determines that.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Minecraft says hello! (and Minecraft also says that Dredphyre likes themeparks as well..room for both to exist)
SEMANTICS.
Now you are down to stating something can only be sandbox or themepark if the core is it.
Well guess what, SKYRIM is sandbox at its CORE because right from the very start I can go anywhere do anything and not be limited by having to follow the story. The CORE is designed to be open. You are NOT forced nor is there a wall you must walk along. AND mods are PART OF THE CORE OF THE DESIGN and has been since Oblivion was released which is why Bethesda was WORKING with the mod community on the design tools DURING the making of the game...lol. They even PAID Steam to work with the modding community to have a MOD shop up and running at release.
So here is a second post with DIRECT refutes to the argument you posted...So please, come back with yet ANOTHER change to how you frame the argument...perhaps throw yet ANOTHER part of the definition of what sandbox or themepark in to lend credit to what you are saying...that can be shot down as well...
The idea of what a sandbox is is not limted, it covers a broad enough range that this can be dragged out for another 20 or so pages with nothing being settled on because it can be twisted so many ways that we can dance around for a week because no amount of spin from you is going to change the genre TES games are in from its millions of fans...nor change the fact that they have been called sandbox games for 10 years...something a simple search will provide plenty of articles showing the gaming industry is laughing at you right now.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
'Sandbox' and 'open world' are actually different things but that doesn't stop the marketing department of trying to make them the same for GTA (first offender) and Elder Scrolls (who took it to the next level).
Unless the mods change the game completely (this is possible), the mods we have seen come out so far doesn't make GTA/ES a 'sandbox' game.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
As an example I could create a mod of a game that increased the level range for that game. If the game was a themepark game and I invited some people with no knowledge of the previous unmodded game to their mind it would still be a themepark game.
If instead I created a different mod which allowed players to take over parts of the game, economy, to restrict access of others players to resources and features then the previous game which was themepark is now sandbox. Not because its modded but because it allows players to change the gameplay of others.