Profit is not purely based on subscriber numbers. Profit is based on expenditure vs income. While its obviously profitable to have 10 million subscribers it might also be profitable to have 500k subscribers.
Considering how many games have remained open and profitable since the 90s, with subs that never topped 500k, I'd say that's a given.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
And what is massive in your eyes anyway? Cause i dare to bet that the sandbox crowd is still represented by millions of gamers, but there are so much more millions of mainstream gamers.
Also i see people saying the sandboxers should mention one good sandbox game after EVE and SWG. But i guess they haven't heard of quallity over Quantity hm? How many great theme park games have there been after WoW? That where as succesfull? AoC, failed gone f2p, Aion, failed, gone f2p, Warhammer online, failed gone f2p, SWToR, not a huge succes, etc. And don't come with "But GW2 gonna blow it all away" cause GW2 isn't released yet and first lets see how that game goes for the first year. And when do you call it a succes? For a niche game you don't need the millions of accounts to be a succes. And there are thousands of F2P games that have millions of accounts but i wouldn't call them a succes either.
AoC/Aion/Lotro/DDO are all huge success btw.
AoC's revenue (once they switched to F2P) jumped by 400% and LoTRO/DDO are raking in tons of revenue.
They all made money for the company so even financially they were successful.
These 'millions' of 'MMO Sandbox' gamers is a myth for a lot of investors. There is no actual data to support it at all.
Largest sandbox MMO is EVE with 400-500k subs. That's not 'millions' as 'millions' are not buying the sandbox MMO.
Well, EVE is a sci-fi game, and to be fair, fantasy is where the numbers are.....WoW and everyone of the huge successes you site are all fantasy....Some people are not too big on sci-fi and being a ship....So basing numbers off of a lesser genre is not the best way to base numbers imo.
And what is massive in your eyes anyway? Cause i dare to bet that the sandbox crowd is still represented by millions of gamers, but there are so much more millions of mainstream gamers.
Also i see people saying the sandboxers should mention one good sandbox game after EVE and SWG. But i guess they haven't heard of quallity over Quantity hm? How many great theme park games have there been after WoW? That where as succesfull? AoC, failed gone f2p, Aion, failed, gone f2p, Warhammer online, failed gone f2p, SWToR, not a huge succes, etc. And don't come with "But GW2 gonna blow it all away" cause GW2 isn't released yet and first lets see how that game goes for the first year. And when do you call it a succes? For a niche game you don't need the millions of accounts to be a succes. And there are thousands of F2P games that have millions of accounts but i wouldn't call them a succes either.
AoC/Aion/Lotro/DDO are all huge success btw.
AoC's revenue (once they switched to F2P) jumped by 400% and LoTRO/DDO are raking in tons of revenue.
They all made money for the company so even financially they were successful.
These 'millions' of 'MMO Sandbox' gamers is a myth for a lot of investors. There is no actual data to support it at all.
Largest sandbox MMO is EVE with 400-500k subs. That's not 'millions' as 'millions' are not buying the sandbox MMO.
Well, EVE is a sci-fi game, and to be fair, fantasy is where the numbers are.....WoW and everyone of the huge successes you site are all fantasy....Some people are not too big on sci-fi and being a ship....So basing numbers off of a lesser genre is not the best way to base numbers imo.
Even more importantly EvE is a griefest, only a small % of people are interested in that sort of FFA almost no rules type PvP (thats not a criticism I loved it after a bit of adjustment).
And what is massive in your eyes anyway? Cause i dare to bet that the sandbox crowd is still represented by millions of gamers, but there are so much more millions of mainstream gamers.
Also i see people saying the sandboxers should mention one good sandbox game after EVE and SWG. But i guess they haven't heard of quallity over Quantity hm? How many great theme park games have there been after WoW? That where as succesfull? AoC, failed gone f2p, Aion, failed, gone f2p, Warhammer online, failed gone f2p, SWToR, not a huge succes, etc. And don't come with "But GW2 gonna blow it all away" cause GW2 isn't released yet and first lets see how that game goes for the first year. And when do you call it a succes? For a niche game you don't need the millions of accounts to be a succes. And there are thousands of F2P games that have millions of accounts but i wouldn't call them a succes either.
AoC/Aion/Lotro/DDO are all huge success btw.
AoC's revenue (once they switched to F2P) jumped by 400% and LoTRO/DDO are raking in tons of revenue.
They all made money for the company so even financially they were successful.
These 'millions' of 'MMO Sandbox' gamers is a myth for a lot of investors. There is no actual data to support it at all.
Largest sandbox MMO is EVE with 400-500k subs. That's not 'millions' as 'millions' are not buying the sandbox MMO.
If blizzard released a sandbox or virtual world game with themepark elements, it "should" put every expert out of job, and data would be pouring out of every hole in a marketers body.
If the economy was different, there would be plenty of sandbox games like before. There is no myth, only what is good for us all at this moment in time, and those that would lie.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by IkonoclastiaProfit is not purely based on subscriber numbers. Profit is based on expenditure vs income. While its obviously profitable to have 10 million subscribers it might also be profitable to have 500k subscribers.
Considering how many games have remained open and profitable since the 90s, with subs that never topped 500k, I'd say that's a given.
What about box sales or digital downloads? AoC and Warhammer made their money back on box sales, so the population crash wasn't a factor in their profitability. Warhammer still makes money and AoC actually financed another MMORPG. I'm reasonably sure that Warhammer's population is well under 300k. Not sure about AoC, 300k might be possible, but it doesn't seem likely.
I don't think there is a standard profit point for MMORPG. If you can make your money back on boxes or digital downloads, then the subscribers are just profit.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
most mmo players joined the genre when wow was released and see the wow formula as the original mmo format..they see sandbox as some kind of new spin on mmo's even though sandbox mmo's have been around since mmo's began, they just weren't labeled as such. most players need direction and need to be told where to go and what to do.
Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?
How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...
Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).
Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."
Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.
Maybe someone else has said this (far too lazy to read through 35+ pages), but one problem might be that the definition of what a sandbox game is, and what elements are necessary to make it successful, are much more nebulous than for a themepark game.
The problem is the industry wants WOW to be the norm of how many people you can get to play an MMO. Unfortunatly it's actually a statistical annomally and should be ignored. Once you ignore WOW then I would hazaed a guess there are about as many peple who want a "sandbox" game as there are that want a "themepark".
So yes the masive numbers of sandbox fans are a myth but they are just as much a myth as the massive number of themepark fans.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
Now you are down to stating something can only be sandbox or themepark if the core is it.
Well guess what, SKYRIM is sandbox at its CORE because right from the very start I can go anywhere do anything and not be limited by having to follow the story. The CORE is designed to be open. You are NOT forced nor is there a wall you must walk along. AND mods are PART OF THE CORE OF THE DESIGN and has been since Oblivion was released which is why Bethesda was WORKING with the mod community on the design tools DURING the making of the game...lol. They even PAID Steam to work with the modding community to have a MOD shop up and running at release.
So here is a second post with DIRECT refutes to the argument you posted...So please, come back with yet ANOTHER change to how you frame the argument...perhaps throw yet ANOTHER part of the definition of what sandbox or themepark in to lend credit to what you are saying...that can be shot down as well...
The idea of what a sandbox is is not limted, it covers a broad enough range that this can be dragged out for another 20 or so pages with nothing being settled on because it can be twisted so many ways that we can dance around for a week because no amount of spin from you is going to change the genre TES games are in from its millions of fans...nor change the fact that they have been called sandbox games for 10 years...something a simple search will provide plenty of articles showing the gaming industry is laughing at you right now.
Open world doesn't make something sandbox.
Themeparks in real life are open world. So why would "themepark" as applied to MMORPGs imply something isn't open world?
In a themepark there's a bunch of rides and that's what makes it a themepark -- you didn't make those rides, and you can't really change those rides, but you can probably visit those rides in whatever order you want.
So if the core of Skyrim is open world, it doesn't mean anything in regards to whether it's sandbox or themepark. Obviously the gameplay that the overwhelming majority experienced is flat-out themepark.
For the people who spend more than half their time in Skyrim creating mods, I suppose the game is a sandbox to them. But if you think that's more than 1% of the total audience of Skyrim, you're delusional.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?
How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...
Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).
Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."
Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.
OH really? the Skyrim RPG is a massive sandbox game... It has out sold Battlefield 3 and Modern Warfare 2 for months and months now... If you knew anything about history you would know that RPGs do not sell better than FPS and have not since the mid 90's.
So if Skyrim, which is a sandbox game, sells this well... hrm... I wonder who is buying it? /sarcasm no.... can't be sandbox players.. nope, not possible. /sarcasm off
Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?
How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...
Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).
Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."
Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.
OH really? the Skyrim RPG is a massive sandbox game... It has out sold Battlefield 3 and Modern Warfare 2 for months and months now... If you knew anything about history you would know that RPGs do not sell better than FPS and have not since the mid 90's.
So if Skyrim, which is a sandbox game, sells this well... hrm... I wonder who is buying it? no.... can't be sandbox players.. nope, not possible.
lol...
Hmmmm, I think we've discussed this at length here and elsewhere. Skyrim is no sandbox. It is an open-world themepark.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Now you are down to stating something can only be sandbox or themepark if the core is it.
Well guess what, SKYRIM is sandbox at its CORE because right from the very start I can go anywhere do anything and not be limited by having to follow the story. The CORE is designed to be open. You are NOT forced nor is there a wall you must walk along. AND mods are PART OF THE CORE OF THE DESIGN and has been since Oblivion was released which is why Bethesda was WORKING with the mod community on the design tools DURING the making of the game...lol. They even PAID Steam to work with the modding community to have a MOD shop up and running at release.
So here is a second post with DIRECT refutes to the argument you posted...So please, come back with yet ANOTHER change to how you frame the argument...perhaps throw yet ANOTHER part of the definition of what sandbox or themepark in to lend credit to what you are saying...that can be shot down as well...
The idea of what a sandbox is is not limted, it covers a broad enough range that this can be dragged out for another 20 or so pages with nothing being settled on because it can be twisted so many ways that we can dance around for a week because no amount of spin from you is going to change the genre TES games are in from its millions of fans...nor change the fact that they have been called sandbox games for 10 years...something a simple search will provide plenty of articles showing the gaming industry is laughing at you right now.
Open world doesn't make something sandbox.
Themeparks in real life are open world. So why would "themepark" as applied to MMORPGs imply something isn't open world?
In a themepark there's a bunch of rides and that's what makes it a themepark -- you didn't make those rides, and you can't really change those rides, but you can probably visit those rides in whatever order you want.
So if the core of Skyrim is open world, it doesn't mean anything in regards to whether it's sandbox or themepark. Obviously the gameplay that the overwhelming majority experienced is flat-out themepark.
For the people who spend more than half their time in Skyrim creating mods, I suppose the game is a sandbox to them. But if you think that's more than 1% of the total audience of Skyrim, you're delusional.
Obviously people like different kinds of games, and since Skyrim is a sandbox, and people bought it... obviously a massive amount of people would play an MMORPG sandbox that was developed well. period.
Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?
How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...
Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).
Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."
Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.
OH really? the Skyrim RPG is a massive sandbox game... It has out sold Battlefield 3 and Modern Warfare 2 for months and months now... If you knew anything about history you would know that RPGs do not sell better than FPS and have not since the mid 90's.
So if Skyrim, which is a sandbox game, sells this well... hrm... I wonder who is buying it? no.... can't be sandbox players.. nope, not possible.
lol...
Hmmmm, I think we've discussed this at length here and elsewhere. Skyrim is no sandbox. It is an open-world themepark.
Skyrim is a sandbox... lol. wow... really? open world themepark? last I checked Skyrim gameplay is not solely linear. it IS a sandbox. The option to do as you please and complete missions/quests however you want, or hell don't even do that go fight whatever you what or whatevers... The facts don't lie... I'm not sure about the debate you speak of but if the conclusion was that Skyrim is an open world theme park I'd say you guys missed the point of the game.
Originally posted by Morv Skyrim is a sandbox... lol. wow... really? open world themepark? last I checked Skyrim gameplay is not solely linear. it IS a sandbox. The option to do as you please and complete missions/quests however you want, or hell don't even do that go fight whatever you what or whatevers... The facts don't lie... I'm not sure about the debate you speak of but if the conclusion was that Skyrim is an open world theme park I'd say you guys missed the point of the game.
Even assuming Skyrim is a sandbox, it doesn't obviously mean people are into sandbox MMORPG. Skyrim sales could indicate that people are really into well done RPG, open ended game play, or dragons. It could be the lore surrounding the whole Elder Scrolls franchise. It could even be an indicator that the people playing it do not like MMORPG because of the other people.
A large number of people look at Skyrim and they don't even see a sandbox game. Right or wrong, this gives you an idea about how split the sandbox crowd is. I have no idea how many actual sandbox fans there are...could be millions, could be hundreds. One thing I am sure of is that the sandbox crowd is split into a lot of different factions, none which seem to agree with each other. Any 'sandbox' game written would only appeal to one of those factions. While there might be a huge 'sandbox' audience, for any given developer, there's only a tiny group of people willing to buy their game and it's just not worth it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Morv Skyrim is a sandbox... lol. wow... really? open world themepark? last I checked Skyrim gameplay is not solely linear. it IS a sandbox. The option to do as you please and complete missions/quests however you want, or hell don't even do that go fight whatever you what or whatevers... The facts don't lie... I'm not sure about the debate you speak of but if the conclusion was that Skyrim is an open world theme park I'd say you guys missed the point of the game.
Even assuming Skyrim is a sandbox, it doesn't obviously mean people are into sandbox MMORPG. Skyrim sales could indicate that people are really into well done RPG, open ended game play, or dragons. It could be the lore surrounding the whole Elder Scrolls franchise. It could even be an indicator that the people playing it do not like MMORPG because of the other people.
A large number of people look at Skyrim and they don't even see a sandbox game. Right or wrong, this gives you an idea about how split the sandbox crowd is. I have no idea how many actual sandbox fans there are...could be millions, could be hundreds. One thing I am sure of is that the sandbox crowd is split into a lot of different factions, none which seem to agree with each other. Any 'sandbox' game written would only appeal to one of those factions. While there might be a huge 'sandbox' audience, for any given developer, there's only a tiny group of people willing to buy their game and it's just not worth it.
Sure, so what it comes down to is whether the RPG, theme or sandbox, is developed well and delivered well with solid themes that attract people, such as Skyrim, and people will buy it and enjoy it.
Therefore, regardless, as has been demonstrated historically... there are quite a few people willing to purchas and play a sandbox style RPG.
I have no idea how you came to the conclusion the sandbox "crowd" is split... They are the same group of people that bought Skryim. That's a lot of people... not some "tiny" audience.
I think you're reaching on the "people playing it do not like MMORPGs because of the other people" part.
Originally posted by Morv Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by MorvSkyrim is a sandbox... lol. wow... really? open world themepark? last I checked Skyrim gameplay is not solely linear. it IS a sandbox. The option to do as you please and complete missions/quests however you want, or hell don't even do that go fight whatever you what or whatevers... The facts don't lie... I'm not sure about the debate you speak of but if the conclusion was that Skyrim is an open world theme park I'd say you guys missed the point of the game.
Even assuming Skyrim is a sandbox, it doesn't obviously mean people are into sandbox MMORPG. Skyrim sales could indicate that people are really into well done RPG, open ended game play, or dragons. It could be the lore surrounding the whole Elder Scrolls franchise. It could even be an indicator that the people playing it do not like MMORPG because of the other people. A large number of people look at Skyrim and they don't even see a sandbox game. Right or wrong, this gives you an idea about how split the sandbox crowd is. I have no idea how many actual sandbox fans there are...could be millions, could be hundreds. One thing I am sure of is that the sandbox crowd is split into a lot of different factions, none which seem to agree with each other. Any 'sandbox' game written would only appeal to one of those factions. While there might be a huge 'sandbox' audience, for any given developer, there's only a tiny group of people willing to buy their game and it's just not worth it. Sure, so what it comes down to is whether the RPG, theme or sandbox, is developed well and delivered well with solid themes that attract people, such as Skyrim, and people will buy it and enjoy it.
Therefore, regardless, as has been demonstrated historically... there are quite a few people willing to purchas and play a sandbox style RPG.
I have no idea how you came to the conclusion the sandbox "crowd" is split... They are the same group of people that bought Skryim. That's a lot of people... not some "tiny" audience.
I think you're reaching on the "people playing it do not like MMORPGs because of the other people" part.
I sit with a lot of people who played hundreds of hours of Skyrim. I can't believe they did it, but they did. These are the same people I played WoW with for 4 years. They have no interest in sandbox MMORPG. They specifically do not want to play a Skyrim MMORPG because of the other people. This actually came up in a conversation. They were even a little iffy about having other friends run around in their games, but they would have zero interest in sharing a world with the general public. The Skyrim crowd and the MMORPG crowd are not necessarily the same crowd.
Skyrim represents a lot of things, but using it to represent the Sandbox MMORPG audience is a poor example. Ditto for Minecraft, Gary's Mod, etc. Just accept that there is no good example and move on.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Skyrim is a sandbox... lol. wow... really? open world themepark? last I checked Skyrim gameplay is not solely linear. it IS a sandbox. The option to do as you please and complete missions/quests however you want, or hell don't even do that go fight whatever you what or whatevers... The facts don't lie... I'm not sure about the debate you speak of but if the conclusion was that Skyrim is an open world theme park I'd say you guys missed the point of the game.
The same can be said about WOW. You can do dungeons, raids, collect pets, and follow any or no quests.
Lol...I remember the 3 or so threads that talked about skyrim being a sandbox or not and in all those threads it was pretty much decided that it was an open world themepark o.o
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(") **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
I dont know how this thread got redirected to one about Skyrim and if its sandbox or themepark.
Wasnt the OP about if the sandbox crowd is a myth? or was the OP disproven and we've moved on to something else?
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
I dont know how this thread got redirected to one about Skyrim and if its sandbox or themepark.
Wasnt the OP about if the sandbox crowd is a myth? or was the OP disproven and we've moved on to something else?
Exactly. The conversation is about whether or not there is really a crowd of customers or players that are really awaiting a true sandbox MMO. In fact I think someone used Eve as an example crowed but was rebuffed by someone else saying that that particular crowd is the exception not the rule.
But...I will add...Skyrim is a sandbox game. It might have some themepark aspects here and there but its far more sandbox. Stop tagging it with this "Open world themepark" crap just to make it fit. It's sandbox...perhaps not "true" but sandbox nonetheless. But that's another topic.
But to use Skyrim as an example and how successful it was/is speaks to the fact that there is in fact a crowd (and a very large one at that) that wants to experience this kind of world and game play. The question becomes how do you capture that in an MMO?
I dont know how this thread got redirected to one about Skyrim and if its sandbox or themepark.
Wasnt the OP about if the sandbox crowd is a myth? or was the OP disproven and we've moved on to something else?
Exactly. The conversation is about whether or not there is really a crowd of customers or players that are really awaiting a true sandbox MMO. In fact I think someone used Eve as an example crowed but was rebuffed by someone else saying that that particular crowd is the exception not the rule.
But...I will add...Skyrim is a sandbox game. It might have some themepark aspects here and there but its far more sandbox. Stop tagging it with this "Open world themepark" crap just to make it fit. It's sandbox...perhaps not "true" but sandbox nonetheless. But that's another topic.
But to use Skyrim as an example and how successful it was/is speaks to the fact that there is in fact a crowd (and a very large one at that) that wants to experience this kind of world and game play. The question becomes how do you capture that in an MMO?
1) You can call it whatever you want. But i have as much, if not MORE, freedom and choices in WOW, compared to SKYRIM. I can queue up for a wide range of dungeons & pvp BGs. I can follow or skip quests. I can go to any part of the world. If skyrim is a sandbox, so is WOW.
2) There is little to gain, gameplay-wise, to make skyrim a MMO. It is about adventures and dungeoning, not huge wars. So making it MP will be sufficient. In fact, it is better to work out the stories in a multi-player game, than a MMO.
3) Regarding the issue of whether there is a massive market for a true sandbox mmo .. i haven't seen any evidence yet. Skyrim is not a MMO. Popular SP open world games (heck, you can count Prototype and similar games too) are not evidence that MMO sandbox will be popular.
Lol...I remember the 3 or so threads that talked about skyrim being a sandbox or not and in all those threads it was pretty much decided that it was an open world themepark o.o
I don't know it depends if you're talking about the PC version or the Console. Console is a Open World Theme Park. PC version is whatever you want it to be with mods so I would lump it in the sandbox genre.
I was level 21 before visiting the Graybeards. I think it motly just depends on how you play.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
1) You can call it whatever you want. But i have as much, if not MORE, freedom and choices in WOW, compared to SKYRIM. I can queue up for a wide range of dungeons & pvp BGs. I can follow or skip quests. I can go to any part of the world. If skyrim is a sandbox, so is WOW.
More freedom in wow really. Can your priest use a sword? Can your warrior pick up some mage abilities? Can you mix and match to create your own character that fits your play style?
You people go nuts trying to pigeonhole "sandbox" to mean so much and if it doesn't dot every i and cross ever t it isn't a sandbox. Hell UO one of the grand daddies of "sandbox" genre wouldn't even fit into all the crazy ass requirements that people throw around.
Comments
Considering how many games have remained open and profitable since the 90s, with subs that never topped 500k, I'd say that's a given.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well, EVE is a sci-fi game, and to be fair, fantasy is where the numbers are.....WoW and everyone of the huge successes you site are all fantasy....Some people are not too big on sci-fi and being a ship....So basing numbers off of a lesser genre is not the best way to base numbers imo.
Even more importantly EvE is a griefest, only a small % of people are interested in that sort of FFA almost no rules type PvP (thats not a criticism I loved it after a bit of adjustment).
If blizzard released a sandbox or virtual world game with themepark elements, it "should" put every expert out of job, and data would be pouring out of every hole in a marketers body.
If the economy was different, there would be plenty of sandbox games like before. There is no myth, only what is good for us all at this moment in time, and those that would lie.
What about box sales or digital downloads? AoC and Warhammer made their money back on box sales, so the population crash wasn't a factor in their profitability. Warhammer still makes money and AoC actually financed another MMORPG. I'm reasonably sure that Warhammer's population is well under 300k. Not sure about AoC, 300k might be possible, but it doesn't seem likely.
I don't think there is a standard profit point for MMORPG. If you can make your money back on boxes or digital downloads, then the subscribers are just profit.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
most mmo players joined the genre when wow was released and see the wow formula as the original mmo format..they see sandbox as some kind of new spin on mmo's even though sandbox mmo's have been around since mmo's began, they just weren't labeled as such. most players need direction and need to be told where to go and what to do.
Maybe someone else has said this (far too lazy to read through 35+ pages), but one problem might be that the definition of what a sandbox game is, and what elements are necessary to make it successful, are much more nebulous than for a themepark game.
Well yes and no.
Gaming is still a niche
MMO's RPG or otherwise are a niche of that niche
"Sandbox" is a niche of that niche
Then there are a couple dozen niches of Sandbox.
The problem is the industry wants WOW to be the norm of how many people you can get to play an MMO. Unfortunatly it's actually a statistical annomally and should be ignored. Once you ignore WOW then I would hazaed a guess there are about as many peple who want a "sandbox" game as there are that want a "themepark".
So yes the masive numbers of sandbox fans are a myth but they are just as much a myth as the massive number of themepark fans.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
Open world doesn't make something sandbox.
Themeparks in real life are open world. So why would "themepark" as applied to MMORPGs imply something isn't open world?
In a themepark there's a bunch of rides and that's what makes it a themepark -- you didn't make those rides, and you can't really change those rides, but you can probably visit those rides in whatever order you want.
So if the core of Skyrim is open world, it doesn't mean anything in regards to whether it's sandbox or themepark. Obviously the gameplay that the overwhelming majority experienced is flat-out themepark.
For the people who spend more than half their time in Skyrim creating mods, I suppose the game is a sandbox to them. But if you think that's more than 1% of the total audience of Skyrim, you're delusional.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
OH really? the Skyrim RPG is a massive sandbox game... It has out sold Battlefield 3 and Modern Warfare 2 for months and months now... If you knew anything about history you would know that RPGs do not sell better than FPS and have not since the mid 90's.
So if Skyrim, which is a sandbox game, sells this well... hrm... I wonder who is buying it? /sarcasm no.... can't be sandbox players.. nope, not possible. /sarcasm off
lol...
Hmmmm, I think we've discussed this at length here and elsewhere. Skyrim is no sandbox. It is an open-world themepark.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Obviously people like different kinds of games, and since Skyrim is a sandbox, and people bought it... obviously a massive amount of people would play an MMORPG sandbox that was developed well. period.
Skyrim is a sandbox... lol. wow... really? open world themepark? last I checked Skyrim gameplay is not solely linear. it IS a sandbox. The option to do as you please and complete missions/quests however you want, or hell don't even do that go fight whatever you what or whatevers... The facts don't lie... I'm not sure about the debate you speak of but if the conclusion was that Skyrim is an open world theme park I'd say you guys missed the point of the game.
Even assuming Skyrim is a sandbox, it doesn't obviously mean people are into sandbox MMORPG. Skyrim sales could indicate that people are really into well done RPG, open ended game play, or dragons. It could be the lore surrounding the whole Elder Scrolls franchise. It could even be an indicator that the people playing it do not like MMORPG because of the other people.
A large number of people look at Skyrim and they don't even see a sandbox game. Right or wrong, this gives you an idea about how split the sandbox crowd is. I have no idea how many actual sandbox fans there are...could be millions, could be hundreds. One thing I am sure of is that the sandbox crowd is split into a lot of different factions, none which seem to agree with each other. Any 'sandbox' game written would only appeal to one of those factions. While there might be a huge 'sandbox' audience, for any given developer, there's only a tiny group of people willing to buy their game and it's just not worth it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Sure, so what it comes down to is whether the RPG, theme or sandbox, is developed well and delivered well with solid themes that attract people, such as Skyrim, and people will buy it and enjoy it.
Therefore, regardless, as has been demonstrated historically... there are quite a few people willing to purchas and play a sandbox style RPG.
I have no idea how you came to the conclusion the sandbox "crowd" is split... They are the same group of people that bought Skryim. That's a lot of people... not some "tiny" audience.
I think you're reaching on the "people playing it do not like MMORPGs because of the other people" part.
Sure, so what it comes down to is whether the RPG, theme or sandbox, is developed well and delivered well with solid themes that attract people, such as Skyrim, and people will buy it and enjoy it.
Therefore, regardless, as has been demonstrated historically... there are quite a few people willing to purchas and play a sandbox style RPG.
I have no idea how you came to the conclusion the sandbox "crowd" is split... They are the same group of people that bought Skryim. That's a lot of people... not some "tiny" audience.
I think you're reaching on the "people playing it do not like MMORPGs because of the other people" part.
I sit with a lot of people who played hundreds of hours of Skyrim. I can't believe they did it, but they did. These are the same people I played WoW with for 4 years. They have no interest in sandbox MMORPG. They specifically do not want to play a Skyrim MMORPG because of the other people. This actually came up in a conversation. They were even a little iffy about having other friends run around in their games, but they would have zero interest in sharing a world with the general public. The Skyrim crowd and the MMORPG crowd are not necessarily the same crowd.
Skyrim represents a lot of things, but using it to represent the Sandbox MMORPG audience is a poor example. Ditto for Minecraft, Gary's Mod, etc. Just accept that there is no good example and move on.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The same can be said about WOW. You can do dungeons, raids, collect pets, and follow any or no quests.
If Skyrim is a sandbox, wow is also one.
Lol...I remember the 3 or so threads that talked about skyrim being a sandbox or not and in all those threads it was pretty much decided that it was an open world themepark o.o
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
( o.o)
(")(")
**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
I dont know how this thread got redirected to one about Skyrim and if its sandbox or themepark.
Wasnt the OP about if the sandbox crowd is a myth? or was the OP disproven and we've moved on to something else?
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Yes I really like this explanation
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Exactly. The conversation is about whether or not there is really a crowd of customers or players that are really awaiting a true sandbox MMO. In fact I think someone used Eve as an example crowed but was rebuffed by someone else saying that that particular crowd is the exception not the rule.
But...I will add...Skyrim is a sandbox game. It might have some themepark aspects here and there but its far more sandbox. Stop tagging it with this "Open world themepark" crap just to make it fit. It's sandbox...perhaps not "true" but sandbox nonetheless. But that's another topic.
But to use Skyrim as an example and how successful it was/is speaks to the fact that there is in fact a crowd (and a very large one at that) that wants to experience this kind of world and game play. The question becomes how do you capture that in an MMO?
1) You can call it whatever you want. But i have as much, if not MORE, freedom and choices in WOW, compared to SKYRIM. I can queue up for a wide range of dungeons & pvp BGs. I can follow or skip quests. I can go to any part of the world. If skyrim is a sandbox, so is WOW.
2) There is little to gain, gameplay-wise, to make skyrim a MMO. It is about adventures and dungeoning, not huge wars. So making it MP will be sufficient. In fact, it is better to work out the stories in a multi-player game, than a MMO.
3) Regarding the issue of whether there is a massive market for a true sandbox mmo .. i haven't seen any evidence yet. Skyrim is not a MMO. Popular SP open world games (heck, you can count Prototype and similar games too) are not evidence that MMO sandbox will be popular.
This!
(and I would consider myself a "sandboxer", but even I don't know what the exact deffenition is)
Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/user/BettyofDewm/videos
I don't know it depends if you're talking about the PC version or the Console. Console is a Open World Theme Park. PC version is whatever you want it to be with mods so I would lump it in the sandbox genre.
I was level 21 before visiting the Graybeards. I think it motly just depends on how you play.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
More freedom in wow really. Can your priest use a sword? Can your warrior pick up some mage abilities? Can you mix and match to create your own character that fits your play style?
You people go nuts trying to pigeonhole "sandbox" to mean so much and if it doesn't dot every i and cross ever t it isn't a sandbox. Hell UO one of the grand daddies of "sandbox" genre wouldn't even fit into all the crazy ass requirements that people throw around.