If the game is good and fun, there will be people who want to play it. However, just like a market exists for "B" independent films, a similar market exists for "B" independent videogames. While you continue your quest for the "Perfect" game, thousands of people find joy in the lesser known. These lesser known games usually have awesome communities, and I'm glad that you chose to ignore them. Live for progress or watch the world burn; seems pretty simlpe to me.
Example - Entropia Universe. That is a Sandbox. A player can do anything they want, when they want and how they want. Zero restrictions. That is a Sandbox. EvE has Sandbox elements but it is not a sandbox.
As others pointed out, you can't do everything in Entropia Universe, because you can't do things which aren't programmed in.
But it would be silly if this limitation caused us to not consider the game a sandbox. It clearly is a sandbox, just like EVE (despite its limitations) is clearly a sandbox.
If the majority of features the player engages in on a session-to-session basis are sandbox features, the game's a sandbox.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Example - Entropia Universe. That is a Sandbox. A player can do anything they want, when they want and how they want. Zero restrictions. That is a Sandbox. EvE has Sandbox elements but it is not a sandbox.
As others pointed out, you can't do everything in Entropia Universe, because you can't do things which aren't programmed in.
But it would be silly if this limitation caused us to not consider the game a sandbox. It clearly is a sandbox, just like EVE (despite its limitations) is clearly a sandbox.
If the majority of features the player engages in on a session-to-session basis are sandbox features, the game's a sandbox.
To be Honnest I do not consider EVE to be Sandbox either. Mainly because the Progression of the Character is Directed by the game and not by the player's Actions. But it has a very strong Sandbox Premise Focus, so much that it is being seen as one by most.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I understand what you are saying however, I see themeparks as Linear still and here is why:
Example WoW.
You may posit that it has rides and that the rides do not follow a lnear approach since these can be accessed in any order but that is not true
You're still describing a logical fallacy:
A is always Y
One example of B is Z
B must always be Z
It's great that you have one example of a themepark you feel is linear, but that doesn't mean all themeparks are linear. I've provided several examples to the contrary.
What is actually true is:
A is always* Y (*usually)
B can be Y or Z, depending on implementation.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I understand what you are saying however, I see themeparks as Linear still and here is why:
Example WoW.
You may posit that it has rides and that the rides do not follow a lnear approach since these can be accessed in any order but that is not true
You're still describing a logical fallacy:
A is always Y
One example of B is Z
B must always be Z
It's great that you have one example of a themepark you feel is linear, but that doesn't mean all themeparks are linear. I've provided several examples to the contrary.
What is actually true is:
A is always* Y (*usually)
B can be Y or Z, depending on implementation.
Your logic is sound, and it is a good counter-argument to Surak.
Unfortunately, it still ignores the fact that the widely accepted definition of a sandbox means non-linear.
The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game.
To be Honnest I do not consider EVE to be Sandbox either. Mainly because the Progression of the Character is Directed by the game and not by the player's Actions. But it has a very strong Sandbox Premise Focus, so much that it is being seen as one by most.
Limitations abound in everything we call "sandbox". Doesn't prevent something from being a sandbox if the core experience revolves around sandbox features.
No matter what you mention, there are limitations on it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Eve is another game I consider a Virtual World game. Developers create Immersion instead of content really. There are alot of restrictions in eve, but they are built into the game, creating a virtual world, and immersion. It took them a while too.
Do People play eve for the gameplay or the immersion?
Themepark gameplay should be used for immersion In a game rather than repetition of behavior IMO.
The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game.
Exhibit A proves nothing. If you think it "proves" anything, you're making the same logic mistake as the other guy. You're saying that because we've proven A equals Y, that B can't also equal Y. But it can, and it does, and I've provided examples of it being that way.
Exhibit B suggests WOW is a sandbox. I'm sure that's something everyone can agree with, right?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sandbox doesnt mean future site for themepark gameplay.
WoW was a hybrid at launch, only an illusion of a VW. They took the expansion money now over the subscribtion money in the future by paving over the sandbox to make room for rides. Rides probably insipred by the players in the sandbox that came first no doubt.
The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game.
Exhibit A proves nothing. If you think it "proves" anything, you're making the same logic mistake as the other guy. You're saying that because we've proven A equals Y, that B can't also equal Y. But it can, and it does, and I've provided examples of it being that way.
Exhibit B suggests WOW is a sandbox. I'm sure that's something everyone can agree with, right?
These are good finds Creslin321,
Exhibit A - Applies for MMO Sandbox games, and does explain non-linear gameplay, or non directed gameplay.
Exhibit B - Refers to Single player games mainly, and not MMO, where a Story Line is usually imposed.
You are trying to argue using rules of Logic, but then you are thowing arguments to refute points made by fallacies without considering the content of the points themselves in any logical way.
Human communication is not Mathematical or 100% Logical, so please lets drop the Dialectics from the discussion.
We are amongs Human beings here which by nature are both Logical and Emotional, we are not mashines.
but most importantly I am here to discuss, exchange ideas, but do not expect to convince me of anything, if I change my view it will be according to the information that is being presented and my own Reasoning.
A,B, Y, Z, responses are meaningless. Please state your points like a human being with words that represent structures immages and examples.
You dismiss my point without even considering its content solely based on the fact that I gave only WoW as an example and you gave more Game names (without really describing the gameplay of any btw).
Well, here, add to my WoW example these too, WAR, RIFT, AoC, LOTRO, AllOds, Runes of Magic, SW:TOR...all prime examples of Directed, linear and very Themepark gameplay...shall i go on?
For now, I remain of the view, that in the case of MMO's, what makes one a Sandbox is:
- Non linear, Non Direceted or Freedom based Gameplay.
Altering physically the world is implied by this Freedom if Supported and offered as a feature. And the above apply to Character Progression, Story, Quests etc etc.
And a Themepark is the opposite:
- Linear, Directed or Non Freedom based Gameplay.
And the above apply to Character Progression, Story, quests, etc etc.
Cheers!
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?
How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...
Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).
Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."
Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.
Hmpf, typical black-and-whiteism.
Indeed bioware didnt fall flat on their arses with SW:TOR because they put the themepark stamp on it. The themepark market is saturated, there simply wasnt room for a 200+ million dollar game. It was insanity really.
The sandbox market is not saturated at all. If you ask "would a sandbox game be able to pull in 12 million subscribers?" my answer would allways be "who the f*ck knows?". Lend me a time machine or a portal to a alternate universe and Ill let you know.
I think you are putting too much into that quote about Eve, it has nothing to do about it being a sandbox, infact the sandbox nature of of the gameworld is where CCP draws the most players but they lose them again. Ever hear the Phrase "eve is more fun to read about than it is to play"?
There is no denying that eve is the most popular sandbox style MMORPG but if you dont like the niche that Eve is filling gameplay-wise but love the sandbox style world, then your choices grow quite limited after Eve.
So no, I dont think that sandboxes in itself is a niche with a small audience, plenty of low budget indie productions have been getting a lot more hype then they were due. People dont like shitty games, thats one thing you got right, but consider that there are still people supporting Darkfall or Perpetuum or a mess like Xsyon. There are hardly any triple A studios making sandboxes, closest upcoming games is the likes of ArchAge and World of Darkness, so gamers who want the sandbox experience jump on any old train they can find and then they leave once they realize the games were not all they were promised. We really dont know how popular a sandbox MMORPG would be because we havent seen one with a budget that even remotely compares, and we wont, not because of sandbox games being a niche, but because money goes where the sound investments are, the sandbox ground has not been tread enough to prove anything and investers are terribly nervous people.
Exhibit A - Applies for MMO Sandbox games, and does explain non-linear gameplay, or non directed gameplay.
Exhibit B - Refers to Single player games mainly, and not MMO, where a Story Line is usually imposed.
You are trying to argue using rules of Logic, but then you are thowing arguments to refute points made by fallacies without considering the content of the points themselves in any logical way.
Human communication is not Mathematical or 100% Logical, so please lets drop the Dialectics from the discussion.
We are amongs Human beings here which by nature are both Logical and Emotional, we are not mashines.
but most importantly I am here to discuss, exchange ideas, but do not expect to convince me of anything, if I change my view it will be according to the information that is being presented and my own Reasoning.
For now, I remain of the view, that in the case of MMO's, what makes one a Sandbox is:
- Non linear, Non Direceted or Freedom based Gameplay.
Altering physically the world is implied by this Freedom if Supported and offered as a feature. And the above apply to Character Progression, Story, Quests etc etc.
And a Themepark is the opposite:
- Linear, Directed or Non Freedom based Gameplay.
And the above apply to Character Progression, Story, quests, etc etc.
Cheers!
I guess if I point out the logical fallacies, explain it, and give clear examples of non-linear themeparks, and then someone chooses to openly reject logic in favor of their gut opinion, that that pretty much ends conversation.
You've turned this into a religion.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
1) You can call it whatever you want. But i have as much, if not MORE, freedom and choices in WOW, compared to SKYRIM. I can queue up for a wide range of dungeons & pvp BGs. I can follow or skip quests. I can go to any part of the world. If skyrim is a sandbox, so is WOW.
More freedom in wow really. Can your priest use a sword? Can your warrior pick up some mage abilities? Can you mix and match to create your own character that fits your play style?
You people go nuts trying to pigeonhole "sandbox" to mean so much and if it doesn't dot every i and cross ever t it isn't a sandbox. Hell UO one of the grand daddies of "sandbox" genre wouldn't even fit into all the crazy ass requirements that people throw around.
Can you collect pets in SKYRIM? Can you fly in SKYRIM? There are many freedom in WOW that is not in SKYRIM.
Exhibit A - Applies for MMO Sandbox games, and does explain non-linear gameplay, or non directed gameplay.
Exhibit B - Refers to Single player games mainly, and not MMO, where a Story Line is usually imposed.
You are trying to argue using rules of Logic, but then you are thowing arguments to refute points made by fallacies without considering the content of the points themselves in any logical way.
Human communication is not Mathematical or 100% Logical, so please lets drop the Dialectics from the discussion.
We are amongs Human beings here which by nature are both Logical and Emotional, we are not mashines.
but most importantly I am here to discuss, exchange ideas, but do not expect to convince me of anything, if I change my view it will be according to the information that is being presented and my own Reasoning.
For now, I remain of the view, that in the case of MMO's, what makes one a Sandbox is:
- Non linear, Non Direceted or Freedom based Gameplay.
Altering physically the world is implied by this Freedom if Supported and offered as a feature. And the above apply to Character Progression, Story, Quests etc etc.
And a Themepark is the opposite:
- Linear, Directed or Non Freedom based Gameplay.
And the above apply to Character Progression, Story, quests, etc etc.
Cheers!
I guess if I point out the logical fallacies, explain it, and give clear examples of non-linear themeparks, and then someone chooses to openly reject logic in favor of their gut opinion, that that pretty much ends conversation.
You've turned this into a religion.
Not at all.
But A, B, Y, and Z, replies mean nothing.
Communicate with words please like a human being, so we can understand eachother.
You dismiss peoples examples, like mine with WoW and the Excibit A, without giving any valid reasons, solelly based on your convictions, and now you are accusing me of turning this in to a religion?
Projection much?
You dismissed my point solely because I gave one exemple and you gave several Game names (without even explaining their core gameplay btw), and without even commenting on the content and perspectiove of the described gameplay in my example, at least countering or arguing part of the example even.
Well, you may add to my same example as wow also, AoC, WAR, LOTRO, Allods, Runes of Magic, SW:TOR, Lineage II, AION...all prime examples of Directed, Linear and very Themepark gameplay...
So there are your examples..any isight to the actual content of the argument or are we going to argue about the exact number of Examples given now in order to validate or refute the points made?
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Skyrim is a sandbox... lol. wow... really? open world themepark? last I checked Skyrim gameplay is not solely linear. it IS a sandbox. The option to do as you please and complete missions/quests however you want, or hell don't even do that go fight whatever you what or whatevers... The facts don't lie... I'm not sure about the debate you speak of but if the conclusion was that Skyrim is an open world theme park I'd say you guys missed the point of the game.
The same can be said about WOW. You can do dungeons, raids, collect pets, and follow any or no quests.
If Skyrim is a sandbox, wow is also one.
No. WoW is a linear game. Huge difference.
You can do those raids, etc, but you can't do them at any time. You can't waltz into Burning Crusade content before you have done the content before it. There is no reason to go back to Elwynn Forest when you are past the quests there. There is no reason to go to any of these locations, at all, unless you are leveling a new character, or leveling a skill such as mining, which was designed to be leveled as you leveled, and therefore the content at those levels is pointless once you're past it. i.e. linear, pointless to go back.
No. WoW is not a sandbox.
Skyrim, you go back to Whiterun or any of the towns to pursue more quests, new quests, or any quest... The content in the game scales with your level giving you the option to choose. if you revisited a cave of bandits many levels later in Skyrim their level would scale up. You can revisit caves and dungeons in WoW, but the content and reasons are the same. The enemies the same strength, etc.. I'm not against WoW, however, the difference is WoW gives you the illusion of choice while forcing you down a linear path... Skyrim gives you the illusion of choice, but supports that choice by providing many options.
I can do any raid, and any battleground, and any quest at L85.
In SKYRIM, you cannot do the parts in the quest chain ahead of you. There is little difference between WOW and SKYRIM.
If there are choices, it is NOT a linear path. You are contradicting yourself. There is NO SET PATH in WOW zones. You can go to any zone at any level. Just that you will die.
The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game.
Exhibit A proves nothing. If you think it "proves" anything, you're making the same logic mistake as the other guy. You're saying that because we've proven A equals Y, that B can't also equal Y. But it can, and it does, and I've provided examples of it being that way.
Exhibit B suggests WOW is a sandbox. I'm sure that's something everyone can agree with, right?
They both equal Y. An apple or an orange is still a fruit. Who said WoW doesn't have some sandbox features or SWG didn't have themepark features? As with anything, some are stronger sandboxes or stronger themeparks. The thing is, some of you have your own idea of what a sandbox is. This is fine. It just doesn't match the industry standard of what a sandbox is and you can't expect the world to bend to your definition.
The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game.
Exhibit A proves nothing. If you think it "proves" anything, you're making the same logic mistake as the other guy. You're saying that because we've proven A equals Y, that B can't also equal Y. But it can, and it does, and I've provided examples of it being that way.
Exhibit B suggests WOW is a sandbox. I'm sure that's something everyone can agree with, right?
They both equal Y. An apple or an orange is still a fruit. Who said WoW doesn't have some sandbox features or SWG didn't have themepark features? As with anything, some are stronger sandboxes or stronger themeparks. The thing is, some of you have your own idea of what a sandbox is. This is fine. It just doesn't match the industry standard of what a sandbox is and you can't expect the world to bend to your definition.
Bingo. I couldn't respond until now, but your post exactly reflects my feelings Steve.
First, exhibit A almost flat out says sandbox means non-linear. It says "there is no right way to play." If a game is linear...then there is a definitive right way to play. And exhibit B gives a lot of good examples of sandboxy games that are non-linear, but really have nothing to do with player-generated content.
Second, Sandbox/Themepark is not black and white...it's a continuum. And yes, WoW definitely has some non-linear (sandbox) features. I think that in the current environment it's definitely more "themepark" than it is "sandbox," but I think that a game like SWTOR is more themepark than WoW is. See how it goes? It's not black and white.
And another reason a black and white sandbox/themepark division is silly is this...
Imagine taking WoW (a themepark) and then adding persistent player housing. Everything else in the game is the same, but now there are separate, persistent zones where you can build a house and share it with other players. What would that game be? Would it still be a themepark? Or would it mystically cross the "sandbox barrier?"
What about if you added player built siegeable keeps? Would it be a sandbox then? At what point does a game cross the barrier from themepark to sandbox and vice versa?
Trying to find that point is silly, so you're better off just looking at the whole thing as a big continuum...which is what it is.
Skyrim is a sandbox... lol. wow... really? open world themepark? last I checked Skyrim gameplay is not solely linear. it IS a sandbox. The option to do as you please and complete missions/quests however you want, or hell don't even do that go fight whatever you what or whatevers... The facts don't lie... I'm not sure about the debate you speak of but if the conclusion was that Skyrim is an open world theme park I'd say you guys missed the point of the game.
The same can be said about WOW. You can do dungeons, raids, collect pets, and follow any or no quests.
If Skyrim is a sandbox, wow is also one.
No. WoW is a linear game. Huge difference.
You can do those raids, etc, but you can't do them at any time. You can't waltz into Burning Crusade content before you have done the content before it. There is no reason to go back to Elwynn Forest when you are past the quests there. There is no reason to go to any of these locations, at all, unless you are leveling a new character, or leveling a skill such as mining, which was designed to be leveled as you leveled, and therefore the content at those levels is pointless once you're past it. i.e. linear, pointless to go back.
No. WoW is not a sandbox.
Skyrim, you go back to Whiterun or any of the towns to pursue more quests, new quests, or any quest... The content in the game scales with your level giving you the option to choose. if you revisited a cave of bandits many levels later in Skyrim their level would scale up. You can revisit caves and dungeons in WoW, but the content and reasons are the same. The enemies the same strength, etc.. I'm not against WoW, however, the difference is WoW gives you the illusion of choice while forcing you down a linear path... Skyrim gives you the illusion of choice, but supports that choice by providing many options.
I can do any raid, and any battleground, and any quest at L85.
In SKYRIM, you cannot do the parts in the quest chain ahead of you. There is little difference between WOW and SKYRIM.
If there are choices, it is NOT a linear path. You are contradicting yourself. There is NO SET PATH in WOW zones. You can go to any zone at any level. Just that you will die.
Which means you can't Function in them. When we say you can go anywhere we are not talking about going there to see what is there but going there to function, kill mobs raise skills gather something, actually play and adventure there.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
What he is saying is that non-linear or non-directed is a meaningless term because both themepark and sandbox have non-linear and linear elements.
WoW lets you chose how to level up, yet it's a themepark.
Skyrim has scripted, content and a linear storyline, yet many consider sandbox.
So becausee they are in both games, the linearity cannot be the determining factor.
Which I agree with.
The key points in Creslin's arguments are that a sandbox allows creativity. Thats it. You can create things.
It's not that simple though...
You can't just say "it has scripted content, yet it's a sandbox" WTF???
It's a continuum...a game can be MORE or LESS linear, it's not all or nothing.
For example...imagine I have a game where you can initially choose paths A or B. Once you choose a path, you are on it until the game is over. The game has some non-linear elements (initial choice), but it is completely linear after. In fact, I think this game would be the least non-linear a game could be while still retaining SOME non-linearity (there is a single choice, then it's completely linear).
Now imagine a game where you are put in a world with absolutely no direction and you can do whatever you want. This game is completely on the side of non-linear.
The thing is...you can make a game that falls ANYWHERE between those two extremes.
If I add some scripted content to my mega non-linear game, then does it become linear? If I add a lot more branches to my linear game, does it become non-linear?
There is no good answer to where exactly you draw that line. Sometimes it's clear to us when a game is a "themepark" because it's fairly far to one side. But even very themeparky games have some sandbox elements (in WoW you have some limited choice about how you level). Just like how even very sandboxy games have some themepark elements (Darkfall has quests).
The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game.
Exhibit A proves nothing. If you think it "proves" anything, you're making the same logic mistake as the other guy. You're saying that because we've proven A equals Y, that B can't also equal Y. But it can, and it does, and I've provided examples of it being that way.
Exhibit B suggests WOW is a sandbox. I'm sure that's something everyone can agree with, right?
They both equal Y. An apple or an orange is still a fruit. Who said WoW doesn't have some sandbox features or SWG didn't have themepark features? As with anything, some are stronger sandboxes or stronger themeparks. The thing is, some of you have your own idea of what a sandbox is. This is fine. It just doesn't match the industry standard of what a sandbox is and you can't expect the world to bend to your definition.
Bingo. I couldn't respond until now, but your post exactly reflects my feelings Steve.
First, exhibit A almost flat out says sandbox means non-linear. It says "there is no right way to play." If a game is linear...then there is a definitive right way to play. And exhibit B gives a lot of good examples of sandboxy games that are non-linear, but really have nothing to do with player-generated content.
Second, Sandbox/Themepark is not black and white...it's a continuum. And yes, WoW definitely has some non-linear (sandbox) features. I think that in the current environment it's definitely more "themepark" than it is "sandbox," but I think that a game like SWTOR is more themepark than WoW is. See how it goes? It's not black and white.
And another reason a black and white sandbox/themepark division is silly is this...
Imagine taking WoW (a themepark) and then adding persistent player housing. Everything else in the game is the same, but now there are separate, persistent zones where you can build a house and share it with other players. What would that game be? Would it still be a themepark? Or would it mystically cross the "sandbox barrier?"
What about if you added player built siegeable keeps? Would it be a sandbox then? At what point does a game cross the barrier from themepark to sandbox and vice versa?
Trying to find that point is silly, so you're better off just looking at the whole thing as a big continuum...which is what it is.
I agree as well overall with both of you.
While I would say that the clear difference of the two is at the very higher level, or if you prefer at the foundation of the core gameplay. Linear vs Non Linear...but after that point both can share other elements and features.
If we added Persistent Housing or siegeable keeps to wow it would still be a Themepark game because its Progression Gameplay is Linear and directed, the Houses and Keeps are added features only that expand upon ways to have fun at some point in that progression.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
1) You can call it whatever you want. But i have as much, if not MORE, freedom and choices in WOW, compared to SKYRIM. I can queue up for a wide range of dungeons & pvp BGs. I can follow or skip quests. I can go to any part of the world. If skyrim is a sandbox, so is WOW.
More freedom in wow really. Can your priest use a sword? Can your warrior pick up some mage abilities? Can you mix and match to create your own character that fits your play style?
You people go nuts trying to pigeonhole "sandbox" to mean so much and if it doesn't dot every i and cross ever t it isn't a sandbox. Hell UO one of the grand daddies of "sandbox" genre wouldn't even fit into all the crazy ass requirements that people throw around.
Can you collect pets in SKYRIM? Can you fly in SKYRIM? There are many freedom in WOW that is not in SKYRIM.
Really that is your come back?!? No but I can collect forks, vases, buckets and a whole host of other garbage, which has nothing to do with freedom of character developement.
Your character will only ever be what some developer designed him to be.
What he is saying is that non-linear or non-directed is a meaningless term because both themepark and sandbox have non-linear and linear elements.
WoW lets you chose how to level up, yet it's a themepark.
Skyrim has scripted, content and a linear storyline, yet many consider sandbox.
So becausee they are in both games, the linearity cannot be the determining factor.
Which I agree with.
The key points in Creslin's arguments are that a sandbox allows creativity. Thats it. You can create things.
Well, I can accept that both Types can have linear and non-lenear elements the same as both typoes can have Housing elements and features, Full Loot Free for All PvP, crafting and an economy.
Yet, we are not talking about elements, at least I am not looking at it from that angle, I am talking about Core Gameplay which stays consistent thruout the Game.
Like for instance WoW (and all the other examples I stated previously, just don't want to get a reply about the fact that I mention only one example again :P ), it may have some non linear elements, yet it also has a Linear Core gameplay which does not change from start to end from level 1 to level 85 it is there...
So that defines its type.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Communicate with words please like a human being, so we can understand eachother.
You dismiss peoples examples, like mine with WoW and the Excibit A, without giving any valid reasons, solelly based on your convictions, and now you are accusing me of turning this in to a religion?
Projection much?
You dismissed my point solely because I gave one exemple and you gave several Game names (without even explaining their core gameplay btw), and without even commenting on the content and perspectiove of the described gameplay in my example, at least countering or arguing part of the example even.
Well, you may add to my same example as wow also, AoC, WAR, LOTRO, Allods, Runes of Magic, SW:TOR, Lineage II, AION...all prime examples of Directed, Linear and very Themepark gameplay...
So there are your examples..any isight to the actual content of the argument or are we going to argue about the exact number of Examples given now in order to validate or refute the points made?
My convictions are based on the strongest logical evidence to enter the discussion. Science, not religion.
Exhibit A was proof that open-world gameplay is often described as "sandbox". (Evidence that A = Y.)
It doesn't deal with the fact that some themeparks are also open world (SkyrIm, GTA, early WOW.) So it doesn't disprove the fact that some themeparks can be open world (that B can also be Y.)
You can list any number of themeparks which are linear (Bs which are Z) and that won't change the fact that some themeparks are open world and/or non-linear.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What he is saying is that non-linear or non-directed is a meaningless term because both themepark and sandbox have non-linear and linear elements.
WoW lets you chose how to level up, yet it's a themepark.
Skyrim has scripted, content and a linear storyline, yet many consider sandbox.
So becausee they are in both games, the linearity cannot be the determining factor.
Which I agree with.
The key points in Creslin's arguments are that a sandbox allows creativity. Thats it. You can create things.
Well, I can accept that both Types can have linear and non-lenear elements the same as both typoes can have Housing elements and features, Full Loot Free for All PvP, crafting and an economy.
Yet, we are not talking about elements, at least I am not looking at it from that angle, I am talking about Core Gameplay which stays consistent thruout the Game.
Like for instance WoW (and all the other examples I stated previously, just don't want to get a reply about the fact that I mention only one example again :P ), it may have some non linear elements, yet it also has a Linear Core gameplay which does not change from start to end from level 1 to level 85 it is there...
So that defines its type.
If we accept that definition than at it's core skyrim is a themepark.
Your right I can't do certain dungeons and things in WoW until I reach a certain level.
In Skyrim I cannot fight certain bosses, get to certain areas until I complete some parts of the story. That is the game at it's core. Same with GTA and most of those other "sandbox" spgs. Everything else is a side game. And yet we still argue about whether it's a sandbox or not. This is why I assert that it can't be the definiting characteristic.
The defining characteristing is how much creativity the game gives you. If you get to create, it is sandbox, or at least more sandboxy.
edit - as soon as one makes the argument that you are not required to do those story paths in Skyrim, well one is not required to do those dungeon's or any dungeons in WoW so again it is the same argument.
At it's heart a game that gives more creativity to the player will in inherently be less linear, by the less linearity is a byproduct of the creativity. A sandbox has you create things, therefore a sandbox game has to be about creativity.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
If the game is good and fun, there will be people who want to play it. However, just like a market exists for "B" independent films, a similar market exists for "B" independent videogames. While you continue your quest for the "Perfect" game, thousands of people find joy in the lesser known. These lesser known games usually have awesome communities, and I'm glad that you chose to ignore them. Live for progress or watch the world burn; seems pretty simlpe to me.
As others pointed out, you can't do everything in Entropia Universe, because you can't do things which aren't programmed in.
But it would be silly if this limitation caused us to not consider the game a sandbox. It clearly is a sandbox, just like EVE (despite its limitations) is clearly a sandbox.
If the majority of features the player engages in on a session-to-session basis are sandbox features, the game's a sandbox.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
To be Honnest I do not consider EVE to be Sandbox either. Mainly because the Progression of the Character is Directed by the game and not by the player's Actions. But it has a very strong Sandbox Premise Focus, so much that it is being seen as one by most.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
You're still describing a logical fallacy:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Your logic is sound, and it is a good counter-argument to Surak.
Unfortunately, it still ignores the fact that the widely accepted definition of a sandbox means non-linear.
Exhibit A: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_world)
The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game.
Exhibit B: (http://www.giantbomb.com/sandbox/92-453/)
A sandbox style game is any game were you can choose to not further the main storyline at will. Most popular of this topic would be the Grand Theft Auto series, but games such as SaGa, Legend of Mana, Shenmue, Monster Hunter, Fallout 3, The Elder Scrolls, Assassin's Creed, Xenoblade, Dark Souls, and even technically Burnout Paradise, are examples of this concept as well.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Limitations abound in everything we call "sandbox". Doesn't prevent something from being a sandbox if the core experience revolves around sandbox features.
No matter what you mention, there are limitations on it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Eve is another game I consider a Virtual World game. Developers create Immersion instead of content really. There are alot of restrictions in eve, but they are built into the game, creating a virtual world, and immersion. It took them a while too.
Do People play eve for the gameplay or the immersion?
Themepark gameplay should be used for immersion In a game rather than repetition of behavior IMO.
Exhibit A proves nothing. If you think it "proves" anything, you're making the same logic mistake as the other guy. You're saying that because we've proven A equals Y, that B can't also equal Y. But it can, and it does, and I've provided examples of it being that way.
Exhibit B suggests WOW is a sandbox. I'm sure that's something everyone can agree with, right?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sandbox doesnt mean future site for themepark gameplay.
WoW was a hybrid at launch, only an illusion of a VW. They took the expansion money now over the subscribtion money in the future by paving over the sandbox to make room for rides. Rides probably insipred by the players in the sandbox that came first no doubt.
These are good finds Creslin321,
Exhibit A - Applies for MMO Sandbox games, and does explain non-linear gameplay, or non directed gameplay.
Exhibit B - Refers to Single player games mainly, and not MMO, where a Story Line is usually imposed.
You are trying to argue using rules of Logic, but then you are thowing arguments to refute points made by fallacies without considering the content of the points themselves in any logical way.
Human communication is not Mathematical or 100% Logical, so please lets drop the Dialectics from the discussion.
We are amongs Human beings here which by nature are both Logical and Emotional, we are not mashines.
but most importantly I am here to discuss, exchange ideas, but do not expect to convince me of anything, if I change my view it will be according to the information that is being presented and my own Reasoning.
A,B, Y, Z, responses are meaningless. Please state your points like a human being with words that represent structures immages and examples.
You dismiss my point without even considering its content solely based on the fact that I gave only WoW as an example and you gave more Game names (without really describing the gameplay of any btw).
Well, here, add to my WoW example these too, WAR, RIFT, AoC, LOTRO, AllOds, Runes of Magic, SW:TOR...all prime examples of Directed, linear and very Themepark gameplay...shall i go on?
For now, I remain of the view, that in the case of MMO's, what makes one a Sandbox is:
- Non linear, Non Direceted or Freedom based Gameplay.
Altering physically the world is implied by this Freedom if Supported and offered as a feature. And the above apply to Character Progression, Story, Quests etc etc.
And a Themepark is the opposite:
- Linear, Directed or Non Freedom based Gameplay.
And the above apply to Character Progression, Story, quests, etc etc.
Cheers!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Hmpf, typical black-and-whiteism.
Indeed bioware didnt fall flat on their arses with SW:TOR because they put the themepark stamp on it. The themepark market is saturated, there simply wasnt room for a 200+ million dollar game. It was insanity really.
The sandbox market is not saturated at all. If you ask "would a sandbox game be able to pull in 12 million subscribers?" my answer would allways be "who the f*ck knows?". Lend me a time machine or a portal to a alternate universe and Ill let you know.
I think you are putting too much into that quote about Eve, it has nothing to do about it being a sandbox, infact the sandbox nature of of the gameworld is where CCP draws the most players but they lose them again. Ever hear the Phrase "eve is more fun to read about than it is to play"?
There is no denying that eve is the most popular sandbox style MMORPG but if you dont like the niche that Eve is filling gameplay-wise but love the sandbox style world, then your choices grow quite limited after Eve.
So no, I dont think that sandboxes in itself is a niche with a small audience, plenty of low budget indie productions have been getting a lot more hype then they were due. People dont like shitty games, thats one thing you got right, but consider that there are still people supporting Darkfall or Perpetuum or a mess like Xsyon. There are hardly any triple A studios making sandboxes, closest upcoming games is the likes of ArchAge and World of Darkness, so gamers who want the sandbox experience jump on any old train they can find and then they leave once they realize the games were not all they were promised. We really dont know how popular a sandbox MMORPG would be because we havent seen one with a budget that even remotely compares, and we wont, not because of sandbox games being a niche, but because money goes where the sound investments are, the sandbox ground has not been tread enough to prove anything and investers are terribly nervous people.
I guess if I point out the logical fallacies, explain it, and give clear examples of non-linear themeparks, and then someone chooses to openly reject logic in favor of their gut opinion, that that pretty much ends conversation.
You've turned this into a religion.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Can you collect pets in SKYRIM? Can you fly in SKYRIM? There are many freedom in WOW that is not in SKYRIM.
Not at all.
But A, B, Y, and Z, replies mean nothing.
Communicate with words please like a human being, so we can understand eachother.
You dismiss peoples examples, like mine with WoW and the Excibit A, without giving any valid reasons, solelly based on your convictions, and now you are accusing me of turning this in to a religion?
Projection much?
You dismissed my point solely because I gave one exemple and you gave several Game names (without even explaining their core gameplay btw), and without even commenting on the content and perspectiove of the described gameplay in my example, at least countering or arguing part of the example even.
Well, you may add to my same example as wow also, AoC, WAR, LOTRO, Allods, Runes of Magic, SW:TOR, Lineage II, AION...all prime examples of Directed, Linear and very Themepark gameplay...
So there are your examples..any isight to the actual content of the argument or are we going to argue about the exact number of Examples given now in order to validate or refute the points made?
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I can do any raid, and any battleground, and any quest at L85.
In SKYRIM, you cannot do the parts in the quest chain ahead of you. There is little difference between WOW and SKYRIM.
If there are choices, it is NOT a linear path. You are contradicting yourself. There is NO SET PATH in WOW zones. You can go to any zone at any level. Just that you will die.
They both equal Y. An apple or an orange is still a fruit. Who said WoW doesn't have some sandbox features or SWG didn't have themepark features? As with anything, some are stronger sandboxes or stronger themeparks. The thing is, some of you have your own idea of what a sandbox is. This is fine. It just doesn't match the industry standard of what a sandbox is and you can't expect the world to bend to your definition.
What he is saying is that non-linear or non-directed is a meaningless term because both themepark and sandbox have non-linear and linear elements.
WoW lets you chose how to level up, yet it's a themepark.
Skyrim has scripted, content and a linear storyline, yet many consider sandbox.
So becausee they are in both games, the linearity cannot be the determining factor.
Which I agree with.
The key points in Creslin's arguments are that a sandbox allows creativity. Thats it. You can create things.
Bingo. I couldn't respond until now, but your post exactly reflects my feelings Steve.
First, exhibit A almost flat out says sandbox means non-linear. It says "there is no right way to play." If a game is linear...then there is a definitive right way to play. And exhibit B gives a lot of good examples of sandboxy games that are non-linear, but really have nothing to do with player-generated content.
Second, Sandbox/Themepark is not black and white...it's a continuum. And yes, WoW definitely has some non-linear (sandbox) features. I think that in the current environment it's definitely more "themepark" than it is "sandbox," but I think that a game like SWTOR is more themepark than WoW is. See how it goes? It's not black and white.
And another reason a black and white sandbox/themepark division is silly is this...
Imagine taking WoW (a themepark) and then adding persistent player housing. Everything else in the game is the same, but now there are separate, persistent zones where you can build a house and share it with other players. What would that game be? Would it still be a themepark? Or would it mystically cross the "sandbox barrier?"
What about if you added player built siegeable keeps? Would it be a sandbox then? At what point does a game cross the barrier from themepark to sandbox and vice versa?
Trying to find that point is silly, so you're better off just looking at the whole thing as a big continuum...which is what it is.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Which means you can't Function in them. When we say you can go anywhere we are not talking about going there to see what is there but going there to function, kill mobs raise skills gather something, actually play and adventure there.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
It's not that simple though...
You can't just say "it has scripted content, yet it's a sandbox" WTF???
It's a continuum...a game can be MORE or LESS linear, it's not all or nothing.
For example...imagine I have a game where you can initially choose paths A or B. Once you choose a path, you are on it until the game is over. The game has some non-linear elements (initial choice), but it is completely linear after. In fact, I think this game would be the least non-linear a game could be while still retaining SOME non-linearity (there is a single choice, then it's completely linear).
Now imagine a game where you are put in a world with absolutely no direction and you can do whatever you want. This game is completely on the side of non-linear.
The thing is...you can make a game that falls ANYWHERE between those two extremes.
If I add some scripted content to my mega non-linear game, then does it become linear? If I add a lot more branches to my linear game, does it become non-linear?
There is no good answer to where exactly you draw that line. Sometimes it's clear to us when a game is a "themepark" because it's fairly far to one side. But even very themeparky games have some sandbox elements (in WoW you have some limited choice about how you level). Just like how even very sandboxy games have some themepark elements (Darkfall has quests).
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I agree as well overall with both of you.
While I would say that the clear difference of the two is at the very higher level, or if you prefer at the foundation of the core gameplay. Linear vs Non Linear...but after that point both can share other elements and features.
If we added Persistent Housing or siegeable keeps to wow it would still be a Themepark game because its Progression Gameplay is Linear and directed, the Houses and Keeps are added features only that expand upon ways to have fun at some point in that progression.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Really that is your come back?!? No but I can collect forks, vases, buckets and a whole host of other garbage, which has nothing to do with freedom of character developement.
Your character will only ever be what some developer designed him to be.
Well, I can accept that both Types can have linear and non-lenear elements the same as both typoes can have Housing elements and features, Full Loot Free for All PvP, crafting and an economy.
Yet, we are not talking about elements, at least I am not looking at it from that angle, I am talking about Core Gameplay which stays consistent thruout the Game.
Like for instance WoW (and all the other examples I stated previously, just don't want to get a reply about the fact that I mention only one example again :P ), it may have some non linear elements, yet it also has a Linear Core gameplay which does not change from start to end from level 1 to level 85 it is there...
So that defines its type.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
My convictions are based on the strongest logical evidence to enter the discussion. Science, not religion.
Exhibit A was proof that open-world gameplay is often described as "sandbox". (Evidence that A = Y.)
It doesn't deal with the fact that some themeparks are also open world (SkyrIm, GTA, early WOW.) So it doesn't disprove the fact that some themeparks can be open world (that B can also be Y.)
You can list any number of themeparks which are linear (Bs which are Z) and that won't change the fact that some themeparks are open world and/or non-linear.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If we accept that definition than at it's core skyrim is a themepark.
Your right I can't do certain dungeons and things in WoW until I reach a certain level.
In Skyrim I cannot fight certain bosses, get to certain areas until I complete some parts of the story. That is the game at it's core. Same with GTA and most of those other "sandbox" spgs. Everything else is a side game. And yet we still argue about whether it's a sandbox or not. This is why I assert that it can't be the definiting characteristic.
The defining characteristing is how much creativity the game gives you. If you get to create, it is sandbox, or at least more sandboxy.
edit - as soon as one makes the argument that you are not required to do those story paths in Skyrim, well one is not required to do those dungeon's or any dungeons in WoW so again it is the same argument.
At it's heart a game that gives more creativity to the player will in inherently be less linear, by the less linearity is a byproduct of the creativity. A sandbox has you create things, therefore a sandbox game has to be about creativity.