With a more traditional DP the recovering from losses is a pain in the ass. Its not worth it - not worth it at all. I don't get the gambler's rush some people get when dear dying. I don't get the high. Its just an annoyance - a burden - an inconvenience. No thank you. Losing is quite enough penalty for me. I don't need anyone's fist up my arse to make it really hurt.
The thread is not about if you like to play a game with permadeath or not.
The thread is about the guys that say a permadeath game should NEVER be done (a opinion shared by some justin bieber haters, no matter if they will be forced to listen to justin bieber songs or not [but in this case with justin bieber music instead of game with permadeath system on it]) . Its about seeing, if even with this idea, that fully have permadeath but also dont have it (with the universe B part of the idea) people would still say this game should never exist.
This idea was made because of users that say that NO PERMADEATH GAME SHOULD BE EVER MADE,
I have not seen anyone state that companies should nto be allowed to create a perma-death game.
Originally posted by Cephus404
That's a ridiculous concept. I'd start in Universe B and be done with it.
That is what permadeath haters should do (and why the game is also not permadeath), start the game with their char, die quickly and go to universe B. That is also why this idea was made, to make permadeath haters not experience a permadeath gameplay.
Telling someone that they have to suicide their character in order to be able to play the way they want is a bit off IMO. This would likely be better served by just having an option in character creation that allows you to choose which of the two servers to start on.
Again, I am not opposed to such a game, but neither would I support it. I would read about it, forget about it, and move on. If it was successful, well I applaud any company that can provide employment and a desired service in this economy, so kudos to the dev studio if they could pull it off.
But, I (and this is purely a matter of opinion) think that those who desire perma-death games are likely to be a relatively small minority of the MMO community. What you are proposing is a game where those who dislike perma-death are subsidizing the play of those who like it.
I really would like an answer from you as to the matter of why you need a game where perma death is enforced by the developer if you already have the option to implement it for yourself. Is a matter of wanting the ability to take someone else's character away from them ? Again, you have as much access to permadeath as is physically possible, from 0% to 100%, for yourself already.
Is this a matter similar to the old joke about the hillbilly who held a gun on a man to force him to take a drink of the really powerful moonshine, enough to choke a bear, and then handed his gun over to the other man so that he could force the hillbilly to take a drink now ? Do you need to be 'forced' to accept the consequences of your character's death when you desire a perma-death option ? Are you not able to stick to the decision to enforce perma-death on yourself if the character dies ?
I really am curious as to the motives here.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Many users here complain alot about permadeath, and not just about some specific form of permadeath but many times every single permadeath idea people post here. And not only they complain as in "I would not play this game" but as in "it shouldnt be done, EVER, if you want permadeath just delete your char after you die".
To see how far this goes, I decided to propose some ultra light version of permadeath here and ask if the permadeath haters here would like it. and would not be like "if you want pemadeath just delete your char when you die, you dont need to impose it on other players."
Anyway, the permadeath idea and how it works:
The game works like this:
-The players, when they log with a char that never died, start in a universe A.
-If a player dies one time he will goes to universe B.
-UNIVERSE A IS 100% (NOT 99.999999%) LIKE UNIVERSE B, with same rules, gameplay...
-The only difference is that when you die in universe B you will continue in universe B
-You can't go from universe B to A
-You can't go from universe A to B (unless dying as I said).
-You can delete your chars if you want ( to go again to pemadeath universe or just because you want to make a new char [or delete the old one] because of some reason.
-To make stuff easier to permadeath haters (that sometimes complain about full loot), lets assume this game DONT have full loot, so you can just die and go to universe B when you start the game if you want to go straight to universe B.
In fact there I have a even softer idea of permadeath here, but since this idea not exactly counts as permadeath (well even this one I am posting here is barely pemadeath) I will not post it right now, and this idea will be on maybe another thread.
So the idea of the poll is to ask if people would start to play the game and complain about the permadeath system of the game (or complain while it is in development saying it NEED be reversed to a no permadeath game). Like those guys that play day z and complain about it being permadeath saying developer should remove it, or the guys that complain on gaming forums in the first time they see the info about the day z game when they see it have permadeath.
PS: I would not even like some of permadeath ideas, the "die one time I delete your char (no universe B stuff), all servers with it" is one of them (but i think this would like it some very specific mmorpg ideas"). This poll is not about me, is about about the "no permadeath, ever, and with ever I am talking about all games and servers developed" and seeing if this semi permadeath idea would bypass their "no permadeath in mmorpg games, ever" rule.
I appreciate your post, but you are working too hard at this. Developers have done well to convince the player base that it's very hard to create an mmorpg that has variation from one server to another. Of course, that is BS. You can have an mmorpg, and you can then add a few servers with very different rules. So you could have a perma death server, for any title.
Even WoW could have a perma death server. Imagine how pvp would suddenly be amazingly well organized. lol.
Taking some ideas from table top games. I think a system that had a scaling system depending on how much you die, you start to obtain certain traits or permanent hits to traits. Even then it would be a tiny percentage and random but I think that would be kind of cool, especially if it affected your characters appearance.
e.g. lose an eye, have -1 perception but lose feeling in legs gives +1 to stamina.
I feel the only way perma death could ever work in a game is if the sum of meaningful stat increasure, and skill progression not tied to the player solely from beginning to perfect could be mastered in about a week's time of gameplay (about 20-28 hours) Imagine if at best, you had one good weapon skill, one good profession or craft, some special on the field training to assist and that was it, all obtainable within a week's time? I genuinely think the best permadeath game idea could be wrapped around that with the right ideas.
Sounds kind of pointless really. Especially in a traditional mmo.
RPGs are kind of hard to have perma death in typically, because you spend so much time on your character. Id imagine thats why most dont like the idea. A game has to have the proper mechanics for perma death. Like in Day Z, it just totally works. But you only spend a few hours there and you only expect to spend a few hours alive.
Im a big fan of some type of major hinderance or perma death regarding PVP because I cant stand fighting battles where the people Ive killed keep respawning. Thats not how ware fare works, and I wish games would do that more often.
If you die you just start over in another match. I like it that way. Maybe thats just me.
That's not a permadeath mechanic, that's just 2 servers with different death rulesets.
Imo on paper, many people who complain of permadeath haven't actually played a game with it. It's a prime example of many people not having a clue about rulesets and how mechanics actually play out in reality as opposed to what they conceive in their heads.
Look at the DayZ mod, that's a form of pdeath with ffa, fullloot, pvp and the reality of the mechanic is some of the most thrilling game play available, despite some of the most buggy assed gameing available people are still flocking to it.
I don't think of DayZ as having permadeath, not sure why people even consider it as such.
It's full loot, with the need to remake your character. You're just a walking inventory.
Without character development I don't see it as permadeath, the only thing lost are items. The real test would be for them to put in some form of character development, and then see how much people enjoy it.
But then it is also only a mod. I don't think people are being fair with the whole, "Dayz proves that permadeath would work". It doesn't. It only shows that in a mod, were there is no character development, and therefore no real attachment to THAT character, people don't mind if they lose some items they may have scrounged.
FFA full loot pvp MMO's have a hard time attracting people to play them, throw in the ability to lose all character progress you've made and it would have even a harder time attracting players.
As a mod for a realatively cheap shooter simulater though, yeah it works fine. But in no way does that translate into what people would accept in an MMO.
That's not a permadeath mechanic, that's just 2 servers with different death rulesets.
Imo on paper, many people who complain of permadeath haven't actually played a game with it. It's a prime example of many people not having a clue about rulesets and how mechanics actually play out in reality as opposed to what they conceive in their heads.
Look at the DayZ mod, that's a form of pdeath with ffa, fullloot, pvp and the reality of the mechanic is some of the most thrilling game play available, despite some of the most buggy assed gameing available people are still flocking to it.
I don't think of DayZ as having permadeath, not sure why people even consider it as such.
It's full loot, with the need to remake your character. You're just a walking inventory.
Without character development I don't see it as permadeath, the only thing lost are items. The real test would be for them to put in some form of character development, and then see how much people enjoy it.
But then it is also only a mod. I don't think people are being fair with the whole, "Dayz proves that permadeath would work". It doesn't. It only shows that in a mod, were there is no character development, and therefore no real attachment to THAT character, people don't mind if they lose some items they may have scrounged.
FFA full loot pvp MMO's have a hard time attracting people to play them, throw in the ability to lose all character progress you've made and it would have even a harder time attracting players.
As a mod for a realatively cheap shooter simulater though, yeah it works fine. But in no way does that translate into what people would accept in an MMO.
Sounds kind of pointless really. Especially in a traditional mmo.
RPGs are kind of hard to have perma death in typically, because you spend so much time on your character. Id imagine thats why most dont like the idea. A game has to have the proper mechanics for perma death. Like in Day Z, it just totally works. But you only spend a few hours there and you only expect to spend a few hours alive.
Im a big fan of some type of major hinderance or perma death regarding PVP because I cant stand fighting battles where the people Ive killed keep respawning. Thats not how ware fare works, and I wish games would do that more often.
If you die you just start over in another match. I like it that way. Maybe thats just me.
If you want to experience real warfare, go join the military. Funny how some people want "realism", but only if it's completely safe.
Super Mario had permadeath. and it was no issue. i enjoyed this game very much these old times. but it was a totally different game than WoW or any other MMORPG.
imho, the conflict is between progression and permadeath. in a game with extensive and long progression - especially vertical skill progression - permadeath hurts heavily. but what about a game with a very flat vertical and more horizontal or lateral skill progression? a game where wealth is more important than skills or at least equally important? i heard Salem will have a heritage-system. unfortunately not much is info available about it. now, if you inherit the bank account and the buildings and items of your ancestor, things become a bit more tolerable.
now think about a game, whithout soulbound items and less requirements to wear uber items and your new advancement becomes less painful than expected, because you are able to twink yourself. now think about the skill-system again. it is very flat and broad. so e.g. just sword 1, 2, 3 to skill. of course you restart with sword 1. but its not that hard to skill at least 1 weapon to full power like e.g. in GW2. and the skills themselves are mainly buyable without a lot of requirements. no talent tree to grind thru, no level restriction to get a spell at all. we got an open skill system. and with the money of your ancestor you are able to advance pretty fast. also your house is already done and much more. now add something like SWTORS legacy-system, supporting strong huge families with skill/xp buffs and such. now it becomes even easier after every death. some people would perhaps even develop a strategy of dyeing to empower their future family faster.
my conclusion is: if permadeath should work, you need a different game with heritage, different progression and skill-system. you do not develop a character, you develop a dynasty. and now, permadeath makes sense and does not hurt that much. the subject of progression has to be something eternal, not this single mortal charakter.
i am convinced, that we have to think more out of the box, if we discuss permadeath. we dont know much about the gamemechanic of e.g. Salem, in order to decide, if permadeath really hurts or not.
PS: i am more afraid about Salems naming-system. even this system has to be different. i hope they allow George I, George II, ... George CCLXIV
Telling someone that they have to suicide their character in order to be able to play the way they want is a bit off IMO. This would likely be better served by just having an option in character creation that allows you to choose which of the two servers to start on.
Yes the 2 different servers idea, one for permadeath and one without it, would be a different idea, when I was creating this thread i was thinking "If by the amount of votes, I see that they want to ban from all mmorpgs even this idea here I am writing here, i will need to create a new thread with the idea of having a game with one different server for each ruleset. (permadeath and non permadeath)".
The idea of the idea of this post is that you would have and not have permadeath all same servers.
A game with a permadeath server and a no permadeath server, you would have even less permadeath just avoiding it entirely by joining a server without it.
Originally posted by Ashen_X
But, I (and this is purely a matter of opinion) think that those who desire perma-death games are likely to be a relatively small minority of the MMO community. What you are proposing is a game where those who dislike perma-death are subsidizing the play of those who like it.
Yes this universe B stuff is making the gameplay a little worse to the guys that want permadeath, (because they will need to delete their chars by themselfs to start again, the game will not auto delete their chars).
But I made this idea instead of a full permadeath one because the "no permadeath MMORPGS should be developed, ever" would complain about a full one, the idea of the post as I said many times here, is about this, the idea of the thread was to see if even this idea would be too permadeath to them and so because of some reason they would want to ban even this idea for mmorpgs.
If the game was just a normal permadeath game, made for permadeath players only I woulndt need to create a thread because I already know they would say it s
Originally posted by Ashen_X
I really would like an answer from you as to the matter of why you need a game where perma death is enforced by the developer if you already have the option to implement it for yourself. Is a matter of wanting the ability to take someone else's character away from them ? Again, you have as much access to permadeath as is physically possible, from 0% to 100%, for yourself already.
Is this a matter similar to the old joke about the hillbilly who held a gun on a man to force him to take a drink of the really powerful moonshine, enough to choke a bear, and then handed his gun over to the other man so that he could force the hillbilly to take a drink now ? Do you need to be 'forced' to accept the consequences of your character's death when you desire a perma-death option ? Are you not able to stick to the decision to enforce perma-death on yourself if the character dies ?
I really am curious as to the motives here.
Lets go.
Permadeath System vs. Permadeath likers deleting your own char in a normal rpg when they die:
GAMEPLAY 1:In some game npcs are attacking the city, and players are trying to defend it.
Permadeath player in a Permadeath System: You would have less reinforcements, because everytime someone die he will need to create again his char.
Permadeath player in a normal game that will delete his char when he dies: Players will always be able to come back and help him.
Gameplay idea 2: Open pvp game with castle capture, permadeath player trying to capture a castle.
Permadeath player in a Permadeath System: When your friends die, they will need to start a new char and will not be able come back quickly to the battle.
Permadeath player in a normal game that will delete his char when he dies: His friends will always come back to help him in to take the castle.
Gameplay idea 3: Sandbox game that is like a improved version of Ultima online. You have a friend that is a very very good blacksmith and he do very good weapons to you.
Permadeath player in a Permadeath System: You will need to find a new guy to buy your weapons.
Permadeath player in a normal game that will delete his char when he dies: This guy will be back when he dies and will be able to help you.
There are more ideas that a permadeath system would influence a player but player alone doing permadeath would not be able to experience.
Originally posted by davestr1zl
No offence but that sounds like a really bad idea OP.
I dont want to be unnable to play with my friends just because they've died once a long time ago and i didnt (or vice versa).
I explained that many times here, if your friends died and are on universe B its because they dont want permadeath, a guy that want permadeath would delete his char and start the game again with a new char (and so be in universe A).
If you also dont want to play in permadeath way like your friends, you should start the game and quickly die with your char and so, start in universe B, the non permadeath "game" and so, you will be able to play with them from the start.
If both players want permadeath I dont know why some would stil be in universe B, they would need just to create a new char and start with the other in universe A.
If some friends like permadeath and others hate it, well there is nothing to be done or that can be done here, the same thing would happen in a mmorpg game with one server for each ruleset (permadeath and not).
In fact this would happen even if permadeath didnt existed, in a way like: You and some friends like to play game A, B, C and D only, other friends dont like those games and only like game X, Y, and Z. You will not be able to play with some friends because they dont like the game you like and because you dont like the game they like.
This is basically what happens in Path of Exile when you die in the hardcore league you are sent to the default league. The only difference is that I believe the hardcore league has an increased chance of rare loot drops (although personally I don't see it). It's fine. Kinda nice for living on the edge a little. But it is still the same game at the end of the day with one minor tweak.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
You want real perma death? You're really so hardcore that you believe it's a good game mechanic? OK then do this. Play a game, any game. Once you die, you never play the game again. You uninstall the game and never, ever play it again. That is true permanence. If you can just go and create a new toon, you're still playing the game. Yeah you'll have lost your stuff but you can get it back, you'll still be "alive."
You want real perma death? You're really so hardcore that you believe it's a good game mechanic? OK then do this. Play a game, any game. Once you die, you never play the game again. You uninstall the game and never, ever play it again. That is true permanence. If you can just go and create a new toon, you're still playing the game. Yeah you'll have lost your stuff but you can get it back, you'll still be "alive."
There's probably over 100 games I didnt even wait until i died to logout and uninstall to never play again. It's really popular in gaming.
That's not a permadeath mechanic, that's just 2 servers with different death rulesets.
Imo on paper, many people who complain of permadeath haven't actually played a game with it. It's a prime example of many people not having a clue about rulesets and how mechanics actually play out in reality as opposed to what they conceive in their heads.
Look at the DayZ mod, that's a form of pdeath with ffa, fullloot, pvp and the reality of the mechanic is some of the most thrilling game play available, despite some of the most buggy assed gameing available people are still flocking to it.
I don't think of DayZ as having permadeath, not sure why people even consider it as such.
It's full loot, with the need to remake your character. You're just a walking inventory.
Without character development I don't see it as permadeath, the only thing lost are items. The real test would be for them to put in some form of character development, and then see how much people enjoy it.
But then it is also only a mod. I don't think people are being fair with the whole, "Dayz proves that permadeath would work". It doesn't. It only shows that in a mod, were there is no character development, and therefore no real attachment to THAT character, people don't mind if they lose some items they may have scrounged.
FFA full loot pvp MMO's have a hard time attracting people to play them, throw in the ability to lose all character progress you've made and it would have even a harder time attracting players.
As a mod for a realatively cheap shooter simulater though, yeah it works fine. But in no way does that translate into what people would accept in an MMO.
What it means is immersion is king.
I'm almost certian that the point of my post was completely lost on you.
If the mod had you respawn in a random location when you died, it would be the EXACT SAME THING you're already doing, minus the need to remake a character.
There is no permadeath in DayZ, it's only full loot. Permadath implies you lose more then just items, you lose character progression or development. When there is no character progression or development the only lost are items, and therefore it's ONLY full loot.
If the modder removed the need to make a new character, it would not change what is happening when you die. You never lost a character, only the items you have. The only thing that it's doing is making the time between dying and reentering the game take slightly longer; that's not permadeath, nor does it improve immersion in DayZ.
You want real perma death? You're really so hardcore that you believe it's a good game mechanic? OK then do this. Play a game, any game. Once you die, you never play the game again. You uninstall the game and never, ever play it again. That is true permanence. If you can just go and create a new toon, you're still playing the game. Yeah you'll have lost your stuff but you can get it back, you'll still be "alive."
Creating a new char is not ressurection. Its a new character, and so its realistic.
You want real perma death? You're really so hardcore that you believe it's a good game mechanic? OK then do this. Play a game, any game. Once you die, you never play the game again. You uninstall the game and never, ever play it again. That is true permanence. If you can just go and create a new toon, you're still playing the game. Yeah you'll have lost your stuff but you can get it back, you'll still be "alive."
Creating a new char is not ressurection. Its a new character, and so its realistic.
You don't create a new character in DayZ, you make a new inventory.
When everyone pretty much looks the same, and there is no character development, the only thing you lost were items and the time needed to make the same character and enter the game again.
There was nothig realistic about seeing a game over screen in an atari or old NES game. And no one ever got attached to the "character" in those games or called it permadeath because you had to start over from the beginning.
That's not a permadeath mechanic, that's just 2 servers with different death rulesets.
Imo on paper, many people who complain of permadeath haven't actually played a game with it. It's a prime example of many people not having a clue about rulesets and how mechanics actually play out in reality as opposed to what they conceive in their heads.
Look at the DayZ mod, that's a form of pdeath with ffa, fullloot, pvp and the reality of the mechanic is some of the most thrilling game play available, despite some of the most buggy assed gameing available people are still flocking to it.
I don't think of DayZ as having permadeath, not sure why people even consider it as such.
It's full loot, with the need to remake your character. You're just a walking inventory.
Without character development I don't see it as permadeath, the only thing lost are items. The real test would be for them to put in some form of character development, and then see how much people enjoy it.
But then it is also only a mod. I don't think people are being fair with the whole, "Dayz proves that permadeath would work". It doesn't. It only shows that in a mod, were there is no character development, and therefore no real attachment to THAT character, people don't mind if they lose some items they may have scrounged.
FFA full loot pvp MMO's have a hard time attracting people to play them, throw in the ability to lose all character progress you've made and it would have even a harder time attracting players.
As a mod for a realatively cheap shooter simulater though, yeah it works fine. But in no way does that translate into what people would accept in an MMO.
What it means is immersion is king.
I'm almost certian that the point of my post was completely lost on you.
If the mod had you respawn in a random location when you died, it would be the EXACT SAME THING you're already doing, minus the need to remake a character.
There is no permadeath in DayZ, it's only full loot. Permadath implies you lose more then just items, you lose character progression or development. When there is no character progression or development the only lost are items, and therefore it's ONLY full loot.
If the modder removed the need to make a new character, it would not change what is happening when you die. You never lost a character, only the items you have. The only thing that it's doing is making the time between dying and reentering the game take slightly longer; that's not permadeath, nor does it improve immersion in DayZ.
Not sure what your point is. Permadeath is only loss of artificial power given by the game in exchange for real time? And respawning new is the same as making a new char?
Um, no kidding. People realize that. You Understand immersion right? Think of it as a story mechanic then.
That's not a permadeath mechanic, that's just 2 servers with different death rulesets.
Imo on paper, many people who complain of permadeath haven't actually played a game with it. It's a prime example of many people not having a clue about rulesets and how mechanics actually play out in reality as opposed to what they conceive in their heads.
Look at the DayZ mod, that's a form of pdeath with ffa, fullloot, pvp and the reality of the mechanic is some of the most thrilling game play available, despite some of the most buggy assed gameing available people are still flocking to it.
Most MMORPG's have stupid ideas about progression. Who really wants to kill 10 rats 1000 times to get to a level cap? Well apparently a lot of people for reasons I cannot understand. Getting rid of boring character progression helps actually make DayZ a more meaningful RPG. In fact, it actually puts the role playing back in RPG, instead of some people's weird interpretation that RPG means character progression. Leveling in mmorpg's is pointless and boring, and unnecessary in a permadeath game. DayZ has shown everyone that people want permadeath in games, and they did permadeath right in DayZ. WoW players nearly have heartattacks thinking about all the epics they would lose along with character levels in a permadeath game. The solution is to get rid of levels and epics. Then permadeath might set you back a few hours, but isn't going to make some nerd kill himself in real life either.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
IF the game was really fun to play I'd roll a char, get killed and play in universe B.
Given the certain type of player that MMO's have, I'm sure there will be a large goup of players in A waiting to send me instantly off to B because they think its funny. And that dynamic would ruin the whole concept. So again, if the game is really fun to play, ignore A, go right to B.
Comments
The thread is not about if you like to play a game with permadeath or not.
The thread is about the guys that say a permadeath game should NEVER be done (a opinion shared by some justin bieber haters, no matter if they will be forced to listen to justin bieber songs or not [but in this case with justin bieber music instead of game with permadeath system on it]) . Its about seeing, if even with this idea, that fully have permadeath but also dont have it (with the universe B part of the idea) people would still say this game should never exist.
Telling someone that they have to suicide their character in order to be able to play the way they want is a bit off IMO. This would likely be better served by just having an option in character creation that allows you to choose which of the two servers to start on.
Again, I am not opposed to such a game, but neither would I support it. I would read about it, forget about it, and move on. If it was successful, well I applaud any company that can provide employment and a desired service in this economy, so kudos to the dev studio if they could pull it off.
But, I (and this is purely a matter of opinion) think that those who desire perma-death games are likely to be a relatively small minority of the MMO community. What you are proposing is a game where those who dislike perma-death are subsidizing the play of those who like it.
I really would like an answer from you as to the matter of why you need a game where perma death is enforced by the developer if you already have the option to implement it for yourself. Is a matter of wanting the ability to take someone else's character away from them ? Again, you have as much access to permadeath as is physically possible, from 0% to 100%, for yourself already.
Is this a matter similar to the old joke about the hillbilly who held a gun on a man to force him to take a drink of the really powerful moonshine, enough to choke a bear, and then handed his gun over to the other man so that he could force the hillbilly to take a drink now ? Do you need to be 'forced' to accept the consequences of your character's death when you desire a perma-death option ? Are you not able to stick to the decision to enforce perma-death on yourself if the character dies ?
I really am curious as to the motives here.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I appreciate your post, but you are working too hard at this. Developers have done well to convince the player base that it's very hard to create an mmorpg that has variation from one server to another. Of course, that is BS. You can have an mmorpg, and you can then add a few servers with very different rules. So you could have a perma death server, for any title.
Even WoW could have a perma death server. Imagine how pvp would suddenly be amazingly well organized. lol.
I'm willing to give it a try. Its gotta be better than the quest merry-go-round.
Taking some ideas from table top games. I think a system that had a scaling system depending on how much you die, you start to obtain certain traits or permanent hits to traits. Even then it would be a tiny percentage and random but I think that would be kind of cool, especially if it affected your characters appearance.
e.g. lose an eye, have -1 perception but lose feeling in legs gives +1 to stamina.
I feel the only way perma death could ever work in a game is if the sum of meaningful stat increasure, and skill progression not tied to the player solely from beginning to perfect could be mastered in about a week's time of gameplay (about 20-28 hours) Imagine if at best, you had one good weapon skill, one good profession or craft, some special on the field training to assist and that was it, all obtainable within a week's time? I genuinely think the best permadeath game idea could be wrapped around that with the right ideas.
Sounds kind of pointless really. Especially in a traditional mmo.
RPGs are kind of hard to have perma death in typically, because you spend so much time on your character. Id imagine thats why most dont like the idea. A game has to have the proper mechanics for perma death. Like in Day Z, it just totally works. But you only spend a few hours there and you only expect to spend a few hours alive.
Im a big fan of some type of major hinderance or perma death regarding PVP because I cant stand fighting battles where the people Ive killed keep respawning. Thats not how ware fare works, and I wish games would do that more often.
If you die you just start over in another match. I like it that way. Maybe thats just me.
I don't think of DayZ as having permadeath, not sure why people even consider it as such.
It's full loot, with the need to remake your character. You're just a walking inventory.
Without character development I don't see it as permadeath, the only thing lost are items. The real test would be for them to put in some form of character development, and then see how much people enjoy it.
But then it is also only a mod. I don't think people are being fair with the whole, "Dayz proves that permadeath would work". It doesn't. It only shows that in a mod, were there is no character development, and therefore no real attachment to THAT character, people don't mind if they lose some items they may have scrounged.
FFA full loot pvp MMO's have a hard time attracting people to play them, throw in the ability to lose all character progress you've made and it would have even a harder time attracting players.
As a mod for a realatively cheap shooter simulater though, yeah it works fine. But in no way does that translate into what people would accept in an MMO.
Make a permadeath mmorpg...see how many people want the fun of constantly rerolling after every death.
Might not be so bad if it was a totally free game, im sure lots of people would playt for a few deaths.
Or is ther "rezzing" in your permadeath game?
What it means is immersion is king.
If you want to experience real warfare, go join the military. Funny how some people want "realism", but only if it's completely safe.
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No offence but that sounds like a really bad idea OP.
I dont want to be unnable to play with my friends just because they've died once a long time ago and i didnt (or vice versa).
Permadeath should mean permanent dead period!
Super Mario had permadeath. and it was no issue. i enjoyed this game very much these old times. but it was a totally different game than WoW or any other MMORPG.
imho, the conflict is between progression and permadeath. in a game with extensive and long progression - especially vertical skill progression - permadeath hurts heavily. but what about a game with a very flat vertical and more horizontal or lateral skill progression? a game where wealth is more important than skills or at least equally important? i heard Salem will have a heritage-system. unfortunately not much is info available about it. now, if you inherit the bank account and the buildings and items of your ancestor, things become a bit more tolerable.
now think about a game, whithout soulbound items and less requirements to wear uber items and your new advancement becomes less painful than expected, because you are able to twink yourself. now think about the skill-system again. it is very flat and broad. so e.g. just sword 1, 2, 3 to skill. of course you restart with sword 1. but its not that hard to skill at least 1 weapon to full power like e.g. in GW2. and the skills themselves are mainly buyable without a lot of requirements. no talent tree to grind thru, no level restriction to get a spell at all. we got an open skill system. and with the money of your ancestor you are able to advance pretty fast. also your house is already done and much more. now add something like SWTORS legacy-system, supporting strong huge families with skill/xp buffs and such. now it becomes even easier after every death. some people would perhaps even develop a strategy of dyeing to empower their future family faster.
my conclusion is: if permadeath should work, you need a different game with heritage, different progression and skill-system. you do not develop a character, you develop a dynasty. and now, permadeath makes sense and does not hurt that much. the subject of progression has to be something eternal, not this single mortal charakter.
i am convinced, that we have to think more out of the box, if we discuss permadeath. we dont know much about the gamemechanic of e.g. Salem, in order to decide, if permadeath really hurts or not.
PS: i am more afraid about Salems naming-system. even this system has to be different. i hope they allow George I, George II, ... George CCLXIV
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Yes the 2 different servers idea, one for permadeath and one without it, would be a different idea, when I was creating this thread i was thinking "If by the amount of votes, I see that they want to ban from all mmorpgs even this idea here I am writing here, i will need to create a new thread with the idea of having a game with one different server for each ruleset. (permadeath and non permadeath)".
The idea of the idea of this post is that you would have and not have permadeath all same servers.
A game with a permadeath server and a no permadeath server, you would have even less permadeath just avoiding it entirely by joining a server without it.
Yes this universe B stuff is making the gameplay a little worse to the guys that want permadeath, (because they will need to delete their chars by themselfs to start again, the game will not auto delete their chars).
But I made this idea instead of a full permadeath one because the "no permadeath MMORPGS should be developed, ever" would complain about a full one, the idea of the post as I said many times here, is about this, the idea of the thread was to see if even this idea would be too permadeath to them and so because of some reason they would want to ban even this idea for mmorpgs.
If the game was just a normal permadeath game, made for permadeath players only I woulndt need to create a thread because I already know they would say it s
Lets go.
Permadeath System vs. Permadeath likers deleting your own char in a normal rpg when they die:
GAMEPLAY 1:In some game npcs are attacking the city, and players are trying to defend it.
Permadeath player in a Permadeath System: You would have less reinforcements, because everytime someone die he will need to create again his char.
Permadeath player in a normal game that will delete his char when he dies: Players will always be able to come back and help him.
Gameplay idea 2: Open pvp game with castle capture, permadeath player trying to capture a castle.
Permadeath player in a Permadeath System: When your friends die, they will need to start a new char and will not be able come back quickly to the battle.
Permadeath player in a normal game that will delete his char when he dies: His friends will always come back to help him in to take the castle.
Gameplay idea 3: Sandbox game that is like a improved version of Ultima online. You have a friend that is a very very good blacksmith and he do very good weapons to you.
Permadeath player in a Permadeath System: You will need to find a new guy to buy your weapons.
Permadeath player in a normal game that will delete his char when he dies: This guy will be back when he dies and will be able to help you.
There are more ideas that a permadeath system would influence a player but player alone doing permadeath would not be able to experience.
I explained that many times here, if your friends died and are on universe B its because they dont want permadeath, a guy that want permadeath would delete his char and start the game again with a new char (and so be in universe A).
If you also dont want to play in permadeath way like your friends, you should start the game and quickly die with your char and so, start in universe B, the non permadeath "game" and so, you will be able to play with them from the start.
If both players want permadeath I dont know why some would stil be in universe B, they would need just to create a new char and start with the other in universe A.
If some friends like permadeath and others hate it, well there is nothing to be done or that can be done here, the same thing would happen in a mmorpg game with one server for each ruleset (permadeath and not).
In fact this would happen even if permadeath didnt existed, in a way like: You and some friends like to play game A, B, C and D only, other friends dont like those games and only like game X, Y, and Z. You will not be able to play with some friends because they dont like the game you like and because you dont like the game they like.
This is basically what happens in Path of Exile when you die in the hardcore league you are sent to the default league. The only difference is that I believe the hardcore league has an increased chance of rare loot drops (although personally I don't see it). It's fine. Kinda nice for living on the edge a little. But it is still the same game at the end of the day with one minor tweak.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
You want real perma death? You're really so hardcore that you believe it's a good game mechanic? OK then do this. Play a game, any game. Once you die, you never play the game again. You uninstall the game and never, ever play it again. That is true permanence. If you can just go and create a new toon, you're still playing the game. Yeah you'll have lost your stuff but you can get it back, you'll still be "alive."
There's probably over 100 games I didnt even wait until i died to logout and uninstall to never play again. It's really popular in gaming.
I'm almost certian that the point of my post was completely lost on you.
If the mod had you respawn in a random location when you died, it would be the EXACT SAME THING you're already doing, minus the need to remake a character.
There is no permadeath in DayZ, it's only full loot. Permadath implies you lose more then just items, you lose character progression or development. When there is no character progression or development the only lost are items, and therefore it's ONLY full loot.
If the modder removed the need to make a new character, it would not change what is happening when you die. You never lost a character, only the items you have. The only thing that it's doing is making the time between dying and reentering the game take slightly longer; that's not permadeath, nor does it improve immersion in DayZ.
Creating a new char is not ressurection. Its a new character, and so its realistic.
You don't create a new character in DayZ, you make a new inventory.
When everyone pretty much looks the same, and there is no character development, the only thing you lost were items and the time needed to make the same character and enter the game again.
There was nothig realistic about seeing a game over screen in an atari or old NES game. And no one ever got attached to the "character" in those games or called it permadeath because you had to start over from the beginning.
Not sure what your point is. Permadeath is only loss of artificial power given by the game in exchange for real time? And respawning new is the same as making a new char?
Um, no kidding. People realize that. You Understand immersion right? Think of it as a story mechanic then.
wow 58% voted for no
Most MMORPG's have stupid ideas about progression. Who really wants to kill 10 rats 1000 times to get to a level cap? Well apparently a lot of people for reasons I cannot understand. Getting rid of boring character progression helps actually make DayZ a more meaningful RPG. In fact, it actually puts the role playing back in RPG, instead of some people's weird interpretation that RPG means character progression. Leveling in mmorpg's is pointless and boring, and unnecessary in a permadeath game. DayZ has shown everyone that people want permadeath in games, and they did permadeath right in DayZ. WoW players nearly have heartattacks thinking about all the epics they would lose along with character levels in a permadeath game. The solution is to get rid of levels and epics. Then permadeath might set you back a few hours, but isn't going to make some nerd kill himself in real life either.
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I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
IF the game was really fun to play I'd roll a char, get killed and play in universe B.
Given the certain type of player that MMO's have, I'm sure there will be a large goup of players in A waiting to send me instantly off to B because they think its funny. And that dynamic would ruin the whole concept. So again, if the game is really fun to play, ignore A, go right to B.