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"Sandboxy Elements" (tm)
quasi_dead
Member Posts: 84
As people love discussing what is and isn't a sandbox on this forum, and what indeed constitutes a sandbox, I would like to forward a motion to discuss "sandboxy elements"(tm).
Now, I don't care what is and isn't a sandbox. Obviously its somewhat subjective. So then what aspects of games do you consider to be sandboxy? Console or computer, I dont care. Throw it out there. I'll start. I also dont care if you disagree with me on this one, so pipe down you at the back. Just tell me what you think IS sandboxy.
So go forth, and regale me with lists some sandboxy elements(tm)....
GO!
Crafting with a lot of variables.
The ability to kill or attack almost anyone in the game NPC wise at any given time.
Some kind of housing system, wherein my character has a place within the gameworld.
In depth character system with a multitude of changeable stats and abilities.
Ability to alter my characters appearance.
A multitude of different goals.
A multitude of differing ways to achieve those goals.
Having sex with hookers in alley ways and stealing their money.
If there is conversation, the ability to pick various positions, which would have a bearing on the situation.
A gameworld where a diverse moral sprectrum is entirely possible.
Refrain from Pidegeonholing of ones character.
Actual cause and effect scenarios and repercussions.
No hand holding.
Bartering for goods.
Buying, selling and trading at ones own discretion.
Not binding shit to character, jesus.
Various ways to entertain myself outside of killing things.
Lots of potential for exploration.
Persistent gameworld.
Horses.
Comments
My list is pretty short:
The ability to make a persistent (not necessarily permanent) change to the gameworld.
So, if you can kill all the NPCs in a quest hub, and they don't respawn for hours, that's a sandboxy element. If you can build a player home on empty ground (as opposed to an instanced space), that's also a sandboxy element.
Thank you for you input Darkmoth, I think that is an excelent sandboxy element.
I see sandboxy elements whenever I see something custom in game. Anything unique that you can do or create.
That could be something crafted, or it could be your character build, or even something change in the game world, even something semi-permanant.
I know most people have a much more strict view of sandbox, but thats cool.
EDIT: and I have no idea why I quoted you there
Fantastic contribution Adalwulff, yes I think this in game malleability is what a lot of people consider to be at the heart of 'sandbox', the ability to customize stuff and many things gives a far more varied playing experience in which people can differ from one another, thus creating the box of sand feeling.
To those who have strict definitions on sandbox, tish and pish.
Top use of quotation.
The more choices to change the input or output of any given situation in the game the more sandboxy it is.
While I agree that affecting the world is a very sandbox element I would argue the depth of that is what is truly important. If the only item you can make is a tree then the game would lack a lot of sand in the sandbox because all you could do were plant trees. But, if you could make different kinds of trees, change the color and shape, make different things besides trees then it has more sand in the sand box.
I would argue that the greater the variety of inputs and outputs achieveable makes the game more sandboxy.
But then I have to look at Diablo, randomized loot, an extremely high number of possible combinations, but it is the differece between each other that makes the difference. A good ring is a good ring and +1 int and -1 Endurance is not going to make a big enough difference nor is it a big enough difference to consider a different element.
Are the multiple endings of Chrono Trigger a Sandboxy element? I would say yes.
Is an achievement system a sandboxy element? Technically it is by the OPs standards and probably by my own definition I listed. But I would actually argue it is not sandboxy at all. But it is interesting to compare achievments to the Chrono trigger endings and this is where a really grey area for sandboxy elements come up for me. Anyone have input on the matter?
Side note, I would argue that replayability often acompanies sandboxy elements. I find that interesting. Does it always though?
To me, the essence of a sandbox is that you just keep adding nouns and verbs and eventually, when you aren't looking, your players will start writing stories.
Sandboxy Elements : Freedom. Emphasis on community.
Themeparkish Elements: Little to no freedom. Game mechanics replace the need for community.
Two examples:
BOE or BOP gear. In a themepark, once picked up or equiped the item cannot be sold (not freedom).
Auction House. In a themepark there is no need to interact with other players in order to sell items (not community).
I think one will find that most of the characteristics of sandboxes relate to freedom / community. It isn't limited to having tools that promote freedom / community, it's also about _not_ having tools that kill freedom / community.
Elements which makes you set your OWN goals.
Housing.
Player run shops.
Ellaborate crafting.
Player driven economie.
Edit.
And also the freedom to choose how you achieve those goals.
Yup. The player's ability to manipulate or author the game experience is the "sand" of sandboxes.
Anything else, including a few of the OP's features, isn't a sandbox feature. For example, having sex with hookers is just going to be a feature like any other dev-created ride (and rides are themepark features.) Another example is "no hand holding", as Minecraft wouldn't magically be a themepark if a tutorial showed you how to do a variety of things within the game world (unless the tutorial actually locked you into it, preventing you from doing other things.) A third example is horses (which again, just a static dev-created ride/feature unless players are somehow breeding their own horse to create/manipulate the game experience into something more personal.)
It all comes down to who creates (or authors, or changes) the experience:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I know this is sort of counter to the thread, but for me, a "sandbox" is any game with two things.
1) I feel like what I do has some affect on the world, either for a decent amount of time or permanently.
2) I feel like I am living in a virtual world instead of playing a game. Anything that "reminds" me that I am playing a game, or feels "arcadey" breaks that fourth wall, that sense of disbelief, that I want in an MMORPG. "RP" are the two most important letters there for me.
Actually, Axehilt's two very concise things are really all we need on the issue. Anything that's a "ride" is a themepark element. And anything that's "sand" is a sandbox element. It's as simple as that.
It's as perfect and succinct an explanation I've ever heard.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
I see where you're coming from, but I don't quite see it the same way. Games are as much about the restrictions as the freedoms - you just need interesting restrictions. And, for any game I would want to play, if a person decides to play a loner wandering the wilds, they should have as fulfilling an experience as someone who decides to sit in the royal court at the nexus of all trade and drama.
Good list for starters. Here are some more to add:
- Inventory with a weight limit
- Local markets rather than a global AH (which stimulates trading / hauling / caravans)
- Vehicles or mounts with carrying ability (of raw materials and / or other stuff)
- NPC guards which are realistically scaled compared to players: i.e. not the one shot kind. (Just enough of them to help defenders and maybe respawning quickly when a town is under siege).
- Teritory claimage
- Ability to customize your looks and gear to a high degree.
- Option to form alliances between guilds
- Option to engage enemy players everywhere (with harsh consequences if its in an area which is regarded to be somewhat of a "safe haven").
- The ability to loot stuf from fallen players (all or part of it).
- A huge, seamless, open world
- Ability to dig tunnels / climb trees / scale cliffs / explore underwater content with the right equipment, etc.
- Unpredictable world pve content: many random spawns and lucky opportunities to be found when roaming around.
- Crafting and gathering professions that go beyond gear / gear upgrades and potions, whether its cart making, architecture, cloth dying, farming, actual underground mining, etc.
My brand new bloggity blog.
DarkPony, I don't always like what you have to say, but when I do, I like in a very big way. This is one of those times.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Sandbox to me, well it could be alot... But there's a few things that makes my ears perk and feel the call of the sandbox:
1. Owning a part of the "real" world, no instance crap...
2. "changing" a part of the "real" world, no instance crap...
3. Crafting not only has your name on it, but leads to unique items, built by you.
Tho, there's a few things that make me turn around and forget that the game even exists... FFA PvP, FFA PvP with Full Loot... FFA PVP with ability to destroy/burn someones housing/land/belongings.
Because no game, be it sandbox or themepark can build a "law" system thats so harsh that it negates the griefers fun at being bad.
ill skip the answer for the op since there are suficient onthe past replyes...but ill highlight something kinda obvious atm
50% of the last posts was about sandboxs elements andor games,and games that culd possible being developed...at this point its obvious that the mmo bored comunity are looking what they want see on a game on the sandbox ground
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
^_^
Thanks u.
My brand new bloggity blog.
again we are discussing about features. i am convinced, this is the wrong level of abstraction. we should talk about design patterns or design paradigms like linear / non-linear, dynamic / static, persistence, versatility, player-driven vs dev made, own story vs foreign story, ... and so on. theoretically you could create a good sand box with typical theme-park features and vice versa. it is the way of implementation and the goal or philosophy behind the impelementation which makes a game a sandbox or a theme-park. not the feature. even if there are features which fit better into a sandbox than a themepark and vice versa. it is pointless to discuss on this level of abstraction, because this way, you can prove easily, that WoW is a sandbox and EVE is a theme-park.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
I think the terminology here is a little sloppy, sadly.
I think 'virtual world simulator' is a lot more useful explanation for what a lot of the posts here seem to be oriented towards and asking for.
The thing about a proper sandbox is that a sandbox is about player freedom, but games aren't about freedom, they're about rules. The more you go towards a pure sandbox, you start getting away from it really being a game, and being more... just something you're having fun in. (There's a distinction)
Meowhead - Our terminology is just fine. I don't know anyone in this thread who's talking about 'virtual world simulators'. Stop talking about proper sandboxs because there is no such thing. But I agree with what you said about rules, however I prefer parimeters. If one could do everything in a game it would be pretty tedious.
UsulDaNeriak - We're discussing 'sandboxy elements'(tm), not features. Or design patterns. And certainly not paradigms. What's the difference? Fuck knows. At best your being semantic, at worst pedantic.
Many of the excellent suggestions from my chums in this thread promote aspects such as non-linearity, dynamic shiz, versatility, player driven content ETC. So stop whining, come down from your ivory tower and share some of your own elements. Or paradigms. Or features. Or don't.
I have no interest in defining whether games are or are not sandbox or theme park, it bores me.
To axehilt, I was joking about hookers and horses. But I agree completely about breeding horses to manipulate the game experience, that would be sick.
To Darkpony, awesome list, lets make a game, you're in charge of tunnels.
there is no such thing as "sandbox features"...
Actually, I'm going to agree with Meowhead (something that rarely happens, go check) that most of the posts including yours are more about features that can be incorporated to make a MMORPG more of a virtual world simulation, and not really so much defines a sandbox.
WOW could actually incorporate many of the items folks have listed here and it wouldn't make it any more of a sandbox style game than it is today.
Sandboxes are not so much defined about the specific features/tools/toys that players are provided, but more on the freedom to do with them what they will, with no specific path being driven by the game's design.
In fact its very hard for me to define why I felt EVE was definitely a sand box style game as opposed to most others I've played which clearly are not).
Now I will agree, sand box style games do contain some commonality of certain features that you are listing here, and perhaps there's a tipping point where if you have the right (or enough) of them you've created a sandbox style game.
But I'll also have to agree with AdamTM, most game design features aren't really sandbox style elements.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All these gazillions of sandbox threads popping up on MMORPG recently only mean one thing: many people are so conditioned by the spate of very linear, very rigid themeparks of the last years that they think a less linear and less rigid themepark is a sandbox.
Of course that is completely wrong. But they don't know any better.
Bah, some people go that far that they call GW2 a sandbox. It's ridiculous.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Show me where this theoretical pure sandbox is so I can play it.
Sandboxes can have rules. But very rigid rules make any game themeparkish. Looser rules (and thus more player freedom) make a game sandboxish.
The trick to a sandbox is actually the quantity of sand. How many things can I build, how many things can I discover and explore and how many different ways can I interact with people?
Sure there is. There is developer created rulesets that promote players to try different things to make it work.
I will cite the Asheron's Call Allegiance/Vassal System. Skip the next paragraph if you know what I am talking about.
You can swear your fealty to other players in Asheron's Call which generated bonus xp. Your Patron would aquire a rank 1 higher then his 2nd highest follower. So to get rank 2, you would need 2 rank 1s beneath you, to get rank 1 you would need 2 vassals of your own. Certain items could only work if you were high enough ranked. Entire alliances formed around these allegiance structures. Patrons would also earn a percentage of a vassal's xp as bonux xp multiplied by a skill called the loyalty stat. No xp was lost by the vassal. Vassals were recruited by offering items or helping them learn about the game. There was no negatives to swearing fealty to someone, only extra bonuses generated.
This "ruleset" actually foistered community, talking about how to farm and where to go. Players used their ingenuity to recruit new vassals and formed alliance structures based on the structure of the game.
Second Life is a pure sandbox, arguably the purest. There are people who make real-life incomes (in the 100K range) from the virtual goods they create and sell in the game. To Meowhead's point, a lot of people have a hard time with it precisely because of the lack of rules. It doesn't feel game-ish because of that lack.