There are bad and good people in the world, why would it be any different in a virtual world?
If it's a game world you've created expect to have all kind of people in it.
The big difference with the "real" world is that in games, you have close to no consequences for behaving like an ass. In real world, if you hurt someone, or worse, kill him, you will get hunted down, eventually arrested and sent to jail or worse.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Interesting study, though I don't think it's complicated... it's the same reasons people bully others in any walk of life.
I'd actually say that game mechanics have a lot to do with the amount of griefing as well.
Its mostly about accountability.
I would say you guys are getting the enablers confused with the cause.
The cause is, everyone is an asshole inside.
Trust me, everyone, no exceptions.
In real life we have social mechanisms in place that prevent the "asshole" to come out, be it ethics, morals, religion, culture, economy, the justice system, etc.
We have created inhibitors for our predatory nature with varying levels of "failsafes" to function as a society.
If you remove the inhibitors, people go apeshit.
Alcohol for example removes your personal level of inhibitors.
Money removes the social level of inhibitors.
Power removes most structural levels of inhibitors and failsafes. ("drunk on power")
The problem starts if you remove all inhibitors and all failsafes, which often happens in games, because most games are power-fantasies.
Thats not a problem in single-player games, because the game being single-player is in itself an inhibitor.
In most MMOs you have the problem that the game is still designed as a power fantasy, but now you have other players with their own power fantasies and no inhibitors (if there weren't set by the developers).
In the end, what you get is a game full of sociopaths.
The truth is that most people have very weak personal inhibitors (towards excerting power if in a position of power) and the only thing keeping them in check is the societal system of failsafes.
Are the people that get mad at me griefing them the same kind of people that get mad if someone cuts them off in traffic or possibly butts in front of them at the supermarket line? I am not however, I am a very patient man and I love to grief because it passes time and I like to see if I can help someone crack sooner than later. At least if they snap in a private setting playing there game they can only really hurt themselves or the people around them. If they snap while in traffic or shopping for grocery's it could be more serious...so I am only doing the public a service and that is helping weed out the weak sooner than later.
see ya on the flip side
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
By the way, if you are looking for pop-culture artifacts about gaming and griefing and you haven't already done so, you should check out The Guild I believe it is 'season" 2 (I say that because a season only adds up to an hour or so) one guildmate doesn't like the leader's policy, so she gets on an alt and ganks him repeatedly. Also, the rival guild Axis of Anarchy goes in for real-life griefing with one member (a police officer ) sleeps with the mother of a guildmember.
Are the people that get mad at me griefing them the same kind of people that get mad if someone cuts them off in traffic or possibly butts in front of them at the supermarket line? I am not however, I am a very patient man and I love to grief because it passes time and I like to see if I can help someone crack sooner than later. At least if they snap in a private setting playing there game they can only really hurt themselves or the people around them. If they snap while in traffic or shopping for grocery's it could be more serious...so I am only doing the public a service and that is helping weed out the weak sooner than later.
see ya on the flip side
you should play Darkfall if you can handle it.
And yeah, people who complain about griefing also have an issue with you cutting in line, crazy no?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
There are bad and good people in the world, why would it be any different in a virtual world?
If it's a game world you've created expect to have all kind of people in it.
The big difference with the "real" world is that in games, you have close to no consequences for behaving like an ass. In real world, if you hurt someone, or worse, kill him, you will get hunted down, eventually arrested and sent to jail or worse.
Similarly, the harm you bring upon people by griefing is significantly lower than if you did something bad to someone in the RW.
Are the people that get mad at me griefing them the same kind of people that get mad if someone cuts them off in traffic or possibly butts in front of them at the supermarket line? I am not however, I am a very patient man and I love to grief because it passes time and I like to see if I can help someone crack sooner than later. At least if they snap in a private setting playing there game they can only really hurt themselves or the people around them. If they snap while in traffic or shopping for grocery's it could be more serious...so I am only doing the public a service and that is helping weed out the weak sooner than later.
see ya on the flip side
you should play Darkfall if you can handle it.
And yeah, people who complain about griefing also have an issue with you cutting in line, crazy no?
When someone butts in front of me I usually laugh and smile at them and say I hope you get there faster...
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Are the people that get mad at me griefing them the same kind of people that get mad if someone cuts them off in traffic or possibly butts in front of them at the supermarket line? I am not however, I am a very patient man and I love to grief because it passes time and I like to see if I can help someone crack sooner than later. At least if they snap in a private setting playing there game they can only really hurt themselves or the people around them. If they snap while in traffic or shopping for grocery's it could be more serious...so I am only doing the public a service and that is helping weed out the weak sooner than later.
see ya on the flip side
you should play Darkfall if you can handle it.
And yeah, people who complain about griefing also have an issue with you cutting in line, crazy no?
When someone butts in front of me I usually laugh and smile at them and say I hope you get there faster...
lies!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Are the people that get mad at me griefing them the same kind of people that get mad if someone cuts them off in traffic or possibly butts in front of them at the supermarket line? I am not however, I am a very patient man and I love to grief because it passes time and I like to see if I can help someone crack sooner than later. At least if they snap in a private setting playing there game they can only really hurt themselves or the people around them. If they snap while in traffic or shopping for grocery's it could be more serious...so I am only doing the public a service and that is helping weed out the weak sooner than later.
see ya on the flip side
you should play Darkfall if you can handle it.
And yeah, people who complain about griefing also have an issue with you cutting in line, crazy no?
When someone butts in front of me I usually laugh and smile at them and say I hope you get there faster...
lies!
True story I am cool as a cucumber...
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Are the people that get mad at me griefing them the same kind of people that get mad if someone cuts them off in traffic or possibly butts in front of them at the supermarket line? I am not however, I am a very patient man and I love to grief because it passes time and I like to see if I can help someone crack sooner than later. At least if they snap in a private setting playing there game they can only really hurt themselves or the people around them. If they snap while in traffic or shopping for grocery's it could be more serious...so I am only doing the public a service and that is helping weed out the weak sooner than later.
Are the people that get mad at me griefing them the same kind of people that get mad if someone cuts them off in traffic or possibly butts in front of them at the supermarket line? I am not however, I am a very patient man and I love to grief because it passes time and I like to see if I can help someone crack sooner than later. At least if they snap in a private setting playing there game they can only really hurt themselves or the people around them. If they snap while in traffic or shopping for grocery's it could be more serious...so I am only doing the public a service and that is helping weed out the weak sooner than later.
see ya on the flip side
I hope i never meet you in real life.
probably best ya don't, you would either love me or hate. Then you may think you could really do something to stop me or change the way I am....well.... I could assure you would change your mind once you met me.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
If someone wants to be an outlaw/grief people just make it so they cant buy from stores/vendors if they do it too much. Then again theyd probably just reroll another person to buy for them. Griefing on the Internet is notoriously hard to keep under control or restrict in anyway. Just look at all the rules put into place for forums to prevent it.
Light PvP (forum-based or not) is fun sometimes. But true harassment/griefing is the same as cyber-bullying. Some countries have laws against that stuff.
Are the people that get mad at me griefing them the same kind of people that get mad if someone cuts them off in traffic or possibly butts in front of them at the supermarket line? I am not however, I am a very patient man and I love to grief because it passes time and I like to see if I can help someone crack sooner than later. At least if they snap in a private setting playing there game they can only really hurt themselves or the people around them. If they snap while in traffic or shopping for grocery's it could be more serious...so I am only doing the public a service and that is helping weed out the weak sooner than later.
see ya on the flip side
you should play Darkfall if you can handle it.
And yeah, people who complain about griefing also have an issue with you cutting in line, crazy no?
When someone butts in front of me I usually laugh and smile at them and say I hope you get there faster...
lies!
True story I am cool as a cucumber...
lets hope so because when the truck rams into your car for trying to get on to traffic before him at least you will only have a a gun shot wound to deal with instead of that AND an arrest for assault . i have seen artercations happen. I see an altercation about once a week given what I do.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Are the people that get mad at me griefing them the same kind of people that get mad if someone cuts them off in traffic or possibly butts in front of them at the supermarket line? I am not however, I am a very patient man and I love to grief because it passes time and I like to see if I can help someone crack sooner than later. At least if they snap in a private setting playing there game they can only really hurt themselves or the people around them. If they snap while in traffic or shopping for grocery's it could be more serious...so I am only doing the public a service and that is helping weed out the weak sooner than later.
see ya on the flip side
you should play Darkfall if you can handle it.
And yeah, people who complain about griefing also have an issue with you cutting in line, crazy no?
When someone butts in front of me I usually laugh and smile at them and say I hope you get there faster...
lies!
True story I am cool as a cucumber...
lets hope so because when the truck rams into your car for trying to get on to traffic before him at least you will only have a a gun shot wound to deal with instead of that AND an arrest for assault . i have seen artercations happen. I see an arteraction about once a week
Someone slams into my car or I hit thier car I usually shrug it off, that is what insurance is for...
I cut someone off and they try to ram me, well then it comes down to whos the better driver and may the best man win...
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
The original thread was moved to Off-Topic, which is where we generally allow these types of survey threads. Please do not create duplicate threads (especially when your thread was moved).
To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com
This research will explore the following questions; what are the causes and implications of griefing in MMORPGs, and what magnitude of griefing exists in this genre? The intention is to contribute new research and knowledge about griefing and its sociological impact.
Interesting study, though I don't think it's complicated... it's the same reasons people bully others in any walk of life.
I'd actually say that game mechanics have a lot to do with the amount of griefing as well. A fast comparison of what I would think of two extremes in terms of possibility of griefing: Lineage 2 and GW2.
Lineage 2: you only get quest credit if you land the last hit on a mob, no matter who got the mob down to 5% hp in the first place - it's just so much easier to wait for that tank class to weaken the quest mob to near death, and then as a caster land that final hit that one-shots the mob, and get all the credit while the tank did all the work. Leveling up in crowded areas - melee chars need to run to range, and swing a few times before the mob dies. Casters can just stand virtually in one single spot, and one/two-shot the mobs that the melee class is trying to reach, thus robbing the melee class of all xp and loot even if he was in the leveling spot first. Free for all PvP also means that you'll get A/S-grade permared characters outside the lvl20 or so areas just killing anyone that dares to venture outside the safe zone. You know, just because they can. In a normal situation you really don't want to see other players on your piece of leveling turf.
GW2: everyone gets xp and loot and "quest" credit for killing mobs = kill stealing impossible. Can't grief dymanic events either, or one-shot mobs that other people are trying to kill, even as a max level character in low level zone. Can't steal resource nodes. This is all basically because game mechanics make it impossible. In fact, seeing other people around you is almost always a positive thing.
So in addition to what makes bullies bullies in the first place, I'd say that in MMOs game mechanics play a critical role as well.
That's not an example of griefing since there is a justified motive for the person doing that that has nothing to do with causing the other player grief - in you example faster leveling.
In games that allow for player killing you can't call a person a griefer if they PK because it's justifiable gameplay.
In addition to this these are role playing video games that have nothing to do with the the morals or values in your everyday life and therefor you are free to act out the role of a nefarious villian.
There is griefing in games such as blocking an object so that others can't click on it like auction houses or banks ect. but a lot of what some of you are posting in this thread are not examples of griefing since there is a gameplay motive for the behavior.
In real life we have social mechanisms in place that prevent the "asshole" to come out, be it ethics, morals, religion, culture, economy, the justice system, etc.
We have created inhibitors for our predatory nature with varying levels of "failsafes" to function as a society.
If you remove the inhibitors, people go apeshit.
Alcohol for example removes your personal level of inhibitors.
Money removes the social level of inhibitors.
Power removes most structural levels of inhibitors and failsafes. ("drunk on power")
The problem starts if you remove all inhibitors and all failsafes, which often happens in games, because most games are power-fantasies.
This man speaks the truth.
Even if you think you would not go apeshit should the inhibitors be removed, you would after you meet enough of those who did.
I find it actually surprising how well behaving people actually are in games like Darkfall and EVE Online, where griefing does indeed have no consequences. They could be so much more "apes", but somehow social norms persist.
DAoC - 00-06 - And every now and then WoW - Online since launch - and now back again. EVE - Online since 07 - and still on, and on, and on.. WHO - Online 08-10 LOTR-O - Online 06-08 Also played : Asherons Call, EverQuest, EQ2, Dungeons & Dragons, Cabal, Dark & Light, GW, GW2, LA2, Ryzom, Shaiya, SWG, Allods, Forsaken World, ArcheAge, Secret World, Darkfall, Rift, ESO, Tera.
In Part 6: Implications of Griefing, it states that if you do not agree with any of the statements or only agree with 1 or 2 of them, leave the rest blank and move on; yet, if you attempt to do so, the survey prohibits you, stating that one or more mandatory questions have been skipped.
In Part 6: Implications of Griefing, it states that if you do not agree with any of the statements or only agree with 1 or 2 of them, leave the rest blank and move on; yet, if you attempt to do so, the survey prohibits you, stating that one or more mandatory questions have been skipped.
Looks like you found a major bug, which wasn't discovered during testing. I have fixed this, thank you.
The survey is still generating a good response, thank you all. It will remain open for some time yet. Remember you can save and load previous responses if you feel its too big.
Comments
The big difference with the "real" world is that in games, you have close to no consequences for behaving like an ass. In real world, if you hurt someone, or worse, kill him, you will get hunted down, eventually arrested and sent to jail or worse.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
if one wants to study sociopathic behavour one should look at the Darkfall community.
Its my favorite MMO but the community itself can be sick.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The cause is, everyone is an asshole inside.
Trust me, everyone, no exceptions.
In real life we have social mechanisms in place that prevent the "asshole" to come out, be it ethics, morals, religion, culture, economy, the justice system, etc.
We have created inhibitors for our predatory nature with varying levels of "failsafes" to function as a society.
If you remove the inhibitors, people go apeshit.
Alcohol for example removes your personal level of inhibitors.
Money removes the social level of inhibitors.
Power removes most structural levels of inhibitors and failsafes. ("drunk on power")
The problem starts if you remove all inhibitors and all failsafes, which often happens in games, because most games are power-fantasies.
Thats not a problem in single-player games, because the game being single-player is in itself an inhibitor.
In most MMOs you have the problem that the game is still designed as a power fantasy, but now you have other players with their own power fantasies and no inhibitors (if there weren't set by the developers).
In the end, what you get is a game full of sociopaths.
The truth is that most people have very weak personal inhibitors (towards excerting power if in a position of power) and the only thing keeping them in check is the societal system of failsafes.
Are the people that get mad at me griefing them the same kind of people that get mad if someone cuts them off in traffic or possibly butts in front of them at the supermarket line? I am not however, I am a very patient man and I love to grief because it passes time and I like to see if I can help someone crack sooner than later. At least if they snap in a private setting playing there game they can only really hurt themselves or the people around them. If they snap while in traffic or shopping for grocery's it could be more serious...so I am only doing the public a service and that is helping weed out the weak sooner than later.
see ya on the flip side
By the way, if you are looking for pop-culture artifacts about gaming and griefing and you haven't already done so, you should check out The Guild I believe it is 'season" 2 (I say that because a season only adds up to an hour or so) one guildmate doesn't like the leader's policy, so she gets on an alt and ganks him repeatedly. Also, the rival guild Axis of Anarchy goes in for real-life griefing with one member (a police officer
) sleeps with the mother of a guildmember.
you should play Darkfall if you can handle it.
And yeah, people who complain about griefing also have an issue with you cutting in line, crazy no?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Similarly, the harm you bring upon people by griefing is significantly lower than if you did something bad to someone in the RW.
When someone butts in front of me I usually laugh and smile at them and say I hope you get there faster...
lies!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
True story I am cool as a cucumber...
I hope i never meet you in real life.
probably best ya don't, you would either love me or hate. Then you may think you could really do something to stop me or change the way I am....well.... I could assure you would change your mind once you met me.
Some people are going out of their way to prove others, among which myself, right...
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
If someone wants to be an outlaw/grief people just make it so they cant buy from stores/vendors if they do it too much. Then again theyd probably just reroll another person to buy for them. Griefing on the Internet is notoriously hard to keep under control or restrict in anyway. Just look at all the rules put into place for forums to prevent it.
Light PvP (forum-based or not) is fun sometimes. But true harassment/griefing is the same as cyber-bullying. Some countries have laws against that stuff.
lets hope so because when the truck rams into your car for trying to get on to traffic before him at least you will only have a a gun shot wound to deal with instead of that AND an arrest for assault . i have seen artercations happen. I see an altercation about once a week given what I do.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Someone slams into my car or I hit thier car I usually shrug it off, that is what insurance is for...
I cut someone off and they try to ram me, well then it comes down to whos the better driver and may the best man win...
I couldn't have asked for a better way to prove my point right really.
Truth sucks.
Truth only sucks if you can't handle hearing it.... Luckily I have thick skin which is a great attribute...
The original thread was moved to Off-Topic, which is where we generally allow these types of survey threads. Please do not create duplicate threads (especially when your thread was moved).
To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com
That's not an example of griefing since there is a justified motive for the person doing that that has nothing to do with causing the other player grief - in you example faster leveling.
In games that allow for player killing you can't call a person a griefer if they PK because it's justifiable gameplay.
In addition to this these are role playing video games that have nothing to do with the the morals or values in your everyday life and therefor you are free to act out the role of a nefarious villian.
There is griefing in games such as blocking an object so that others can't click on it like auction houses or banks ect. but a lot of what some of you are posting in this thread are not examples of griefing since there is a gameplay motive for the behavior.
This man speaks the truth.
Even if you think you would not go apeshit should the inhibitors be removed, you would after you meet enough of those who did.
I find it actually surprising how well behaving people actually are in games like Darkfall and EVE Online, where griefing does indeed have no consequences. They could be so much more "apes", but somehow social norms persist.
DAoC - 00-06 - And every now and then
WoW - Online since launch - and now back again.
EVE - Online since 07 - and still on, and on, and on..
WHO - Online 08-10
LOTR-O - Online 06-08
Also played : Asherons Call, EverQuest, EQ2, Dungeons & Dragons, Cabal, Dark & Light, GW, GW2, LA2, Ryzom, Shaiya, SWG, Allods, Forsaken World, ArcheAge, Secret World, Darkfall, Rift, ESO, Tera.
In Part 6: Implications of Griefing, it states that if you do not agree with any of the statements or only agree with 1 or 2 of them, leave the rest blank and move on; yet, if you attempt to do so, the survey prohibits you, stating that one or more mandatory questions have been skipped.
Looks like you found a major bug, which wasn't discovered during testing. I have fixed this, thank you.
The server hosting the survey had a hardware failure over the weekend and is now fixed. The survey is ready to go again!
The survey is still generating a good response, thank you all. It will remain open for some time yet. Remember you can save and load previous responses if you feel its too big.