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Action MMO + no grouping req in general PvE + no global has me worried for the community building in
Vesavius
Member RarePosts: 7,908
A few here will know I am a GW2 fan. I am enjoying the game a lot and have already bought it and will be playing it from launch.
But... I have a worry about the community building, or lack of, in this game and the mid to long term impact that will have.
The game is amazing on so many levels, but there seems to be a lack of personal communication between the wider playerbase, and that worries me because, as I have said in the past often, players come for the game but stay for the people.
In PvE, the thing that most do while checking out what guilds are there, which ones are running together, which ones have idiots spamming their mouths in global, the pace is so action orientated and relentless that people simply don't seem to talk at all (on the 2 servers I have tried anyhow).
I honestly could not name one guild on my server after two weekends, and I am the kind of guy that pays attention to them and how they act.
One answer to help this would be a global chat. Map chat just isn't good enough. We need to get the WvWers, city chillers, and crafters talking to the PvEers.
I know some people get all hipster here and will go on about how they personally hate global chat, but, y'know... don't want to see a global chat? Then switch it off. The option should be there though for those that do, and to show newbies coming in that there are actually other live real people playing the game.
Warhammer should have taught a lot of devs out there the dangers of going live with no global chat channel. It creates a very lonely world for the non guilded newbie entering the game. It was a big problem for WAR at launch, until they relented and put one in (I believe?)
There are other, more extreme, system fixes I would suggest to help the problem, but I have a feeling that most would spit their dummies out if I suggested them here so I won't. For now any how 
Something needs to happen though I think... the silence is deafening.
Comments
There actually is a lot of required grouping in general PvE (try doing a [group event] solo). There's just not the requirement, to rely on the UI, in order to be a part of a group. Also the game no longer needs a general chat for people to spam on. With the inclusion of chat bubbles, all it requires is for you to be a bit social. Heck, this happened in the 1st couple mins of my fairly low pop server.
A conversation...
Shocking isn't it.
Quite sad that so many people who claim to be social gamers and are into the whole community aspect of a game, are so socially inept that they can't even start up a conversation with a random player.
I use Facebook for my social interactions.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
ye...
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
No, just no. I hope that never happens. The way it is right now is fine. The reason people aren't talking is cause they have limited time to enjoy the game, so they want to maximize their time during the weekend. Honestly though, I've seen more people talking this weekend than the last one. A global chat is only gonna encourage people to be "those" people you hate to hear talk. Hell, during my last play session I had to turn off map chat cause they was talking too much and it was spamming my chat log.
As for the community I don't really see your worry. If anything the way the game is made it will have a strong community that is supportive and welcoming. In this game you need to rely on others to progress. If you can't be social and talk and get others to help you, then you will not go far in this game.
I think this is a fallacy and you are simply wrong.
The way people are playing now is the way the system is set up for them to play. It will be this way at launch.
But I guess then you will be back then saying 'it's because people are trying to level!!'...
Why does having a global chat that YOU can switch off bother you?
My feeling is that you are allowing a personal preference, one that you would be given the choice to excercise, to effect your view of the wider issue. People did the same ahead of the launch for WAR, and the Devs listened to them, only then to discover that the testers with the broader perspective were actually right and that a global was a needed thing.
A picture of two people actually speaking... well, that makes it all ok then and invalidates averything I wrote... Don't be silly.
I will edit the attempted troll if that's ok? I cba getting into name calling today.
As soon as they add a global chat channel, they will need to assign CS-reps to policing that same channel. The value of such a channel is limited since most regular players will switch it off immediately anyway.
I would not mind a global channel as long as it can be turned off but I doubt that Anet will spend many ressouces on a "your mother" playground.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
I have seen more trolls this weekend that I've seen in any game since WoW. (This is playing on a UK/EN EU server).
A big shock after SW:TOR, which strangely had a much friendlier and more helpful community than I was expecting. While GW2 is of course the better game, it's still a disappointment.
Sadly, in 2012, people dont socialize in groups. Rift places you into groups automatically but NO ONE ever talks in them. And there is very rarely any communication in dungeons either. Placing people in groups for the events wont increase socialization one bit.
General chats typically dont build communities either, they are just a place for kids to hang out in and talk about bacon or anal [abilities] or why x game is so much better than y game. Regional channels are better, and gw2 has those.
A game can put in all the tools in the world for community building but people won't use em. 2012 community is kept within guilds and I dont see it changing, its a people thing not a game design thing.
I had more friendly contacts with other players OUTSIDE OF MY GUILD in two beta week ends of GW2 than in years of WoW, LOTRO, SWTOR and other dungeon group based MMORPGs.
I don't talk about trolls/immatures/kiddies on chat channels, all games have those. I talk about "on the field" contact, you safe someone's ass, or he saves yours, people go out of their way to help because they know it can't harm, and the words "thank you" are common place (instead of "f*ck off u nub u stole my mob and my xp!!!".
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Must be nice. I decided early on I was gonna stay antisocial just by the way the community was acting..
All I heard all weekend was troll comments the usual (this *insert game* is better then this blah blah. (*insert game* does this better and should be added)... Then the comes the usual racial slurs and eveything is gay this and faggot that.
It's beyond belief that no matter what mmo it is we always have to deal with this crap....
Hell its no wonder why people don't wanna interact I didnt want too after seeing that...
Global should probably just not be added at all because it's only gonna get worse then it already is... The game is nice but once again like almost every mmo released the community ISNT....
This is one reason why Bioware did not want a LFG tool in SW:TOR, it encourages players to actually communicate with each other when forming groups but players have shouted long and hard to have one put in and its comming next patch. The main complaint about WoW's LFD tool is nobody communicates its just get in the Dungeon get it done and get out, KTHXBYE. Its a shame that players are anti-social and adding a feature that just puts players in a group automatically seems to be taking things to far for many, and it was obvious to me this would happen in GW2 because I saw it in Rift when they added in beta, though it was asked for in Rift by us beta testers, auitomatic grouping for rifts as Teakbois says. For me it ruined any semblence of organisation and communication when doing rifts.
Personally I have no problem with getting groups together through a chat interface whether its "LFG to do BT" or "hi mate want to group up?" and I'm always in a guild anyway so its even easier but players seem to love the convenience or a LFG tool or automatic grouping, but to me ultimately its throwing the baby out with the bathwater in regards to communication and community. And thats the rub dev's cater to the majority and the majority seem to like these things and as I've read from Arenanet (paraphrased) "we want to get you in the action and keep you in the action" and that seems to be at odds with forming a community nobody has to say anything to anyone now. So I really understand Vesavius' concerns.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
They've added a map chat option.
To be honest, it's up to the people to use the options developers put in the game. No developer can create a community in the game. They can only give people the tools necessary and hope people use them.
Unlike other developers, however, ArenaNet's not forcing you to talk to other people in the open world if you don't want too. They've given you all the tools necessary, without actually forcing you to talk. In reality, which would be a better community? A community that forms out of freewill and just a desire to talk to one another, or a community that forms because they have to talk?
ArenaNet has given you: Grouping without actually requiring the UI to show you are in the group. You can still talk to the other person, even though you aren't in an actual group. Have you ever conidered just trying to talk to the person you are working alongside to complete a couple dynamic events, or get to that skill challenge?
You've also got guilds. Of course you aren't going to be able to name guilds after just 2 weekends. That can take weeks, even months to happen.
I know on my server, people were talking a lot more this time than they were last time. On some maps, there were people using the map chat to alert people to a dynamic event going on at a certain area.
A community isn't something that just forms after 2 separate weekends of play. A community takes many weeks and months to form. A community is the most dynamic thing about any game, with it constantly shifting and changing throughout the life of the game.
I guess the point of my post is if you want to be social, than be social. Actually talk to other people. Why should ArenaNet force those who don't want to talk to talk? Also remember this, a community isn't just about what people say to each other, it's also about what people do. Are people running up and helping you if you are trying to kill a difficult mob? Are people running up and rezzing you when you are down? Are you doing the same? Do you view other people as an annoyance, or do you work with other people either quietly or talkatively to acheive a common goal?
And remember, your results may vary from server to server. I know with my server, we were pretty social this time around. People actually talked to each other, and were actually strategizing in WvW (could be why we dominated WvW, at one point had every point captured).
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You is not bullshitting
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
The same thing was said about TOR during it's beta and such. We know now, there was and still is very little need for any interactions among players. If this game has no systems in place for players outside of a guild to talk and need other players in the community, then i'm afraid community will be very lacking and i can see it feeling very SP just like TOR.
you mention guilds as an example of your current concerns
personally, i never think about joining or creating a guild if a game is in beta testing - and i doubt im alone
EQ2 fan sites
Unsure if its a role playing server or what, but lots of chat going on in my general area for various large events. I think I found more chat near cities and places where people were idle. Unlike a lot of games, theirs no way to sit in even the basic combat and chat. So you have to go to hte city zones. I've made 4 friends this weekend, just from adventuring for a bit together.
Grouping in the open world more or less went away when EQ lost popularity.
Few people ever bother to work together when running the soloquest heavy open zones anymore, GW2 actually have a lot more socialization than any otheer MMO I seen in many years.
As for the lack of global you chat more with people who are physically closer to your avatar but I frankly don't see how global chats help make the community better at all, in fact I seen many games who got a worse community because the OCC (AoC is a good example, the first 6 months were full of crap).
The gameplay is set up so helping people actually is good for everyone instead of costing people loot and XP and I seen more helpful people in a few days beta testing than I did in 5 years EQ2 and it used to have one of the better communities.
As I see it are MMO communities horrible and have been so the last 10 years. GW2 is trying to change that and while it isn't perfect it is a step in the right direction, not the other way around.
Look on how well the current games have built their commubities, trying something else is the only option.
Dunno, I see plenty of opportunities to build a community over time. Especially with the WvWvW deal. Since there don't seem to be any cross-server stuff, we should be able to see the same people over and over and that's how community builds IMO.
The map chat provides a decent long-range chat so you can talk to people in your area and get relevant comments.
We would probably see more direct conversations when there are harder events. I see a lot more communication in WvWvW because it is, well, needed. Many events are not too complicated and do not require much coordination. Furthermore, all activities function as auto-group, which means small temp groups don't make much sense anymore, so we're not seeing them. And I was never a fan of long-range groups.
Communities to me are about memorable players and making friends. Not about needing 7 people to do every simple thing in the game.
I disagree. Not having a global chat channel is one of the games best innovative features.
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The game allows you to join many guilds so it's only natural you won't see the same kind of community you see in other games.
GW2 is not a game centralized around guilds or parties. The main focus is on the PLAYERS, that's why there are no restrictions and you can play any prof you want without feeling left out.
The times I was fighting a champion mob and suddenly another helpful soul came and help me (and I helped others too) or revived fallen players, or simply helped with an event, this is what makes this game great. Things rarely (if ever) seen in other MMOs. I can remember names of people I played with, it doesn't matter at all to which guild they belonged to, I don't care at all, it matters that they were there and helped. Players help each other in Guild Wars 2 and this is what makes it a more social game. I remember going with PUGs in many areas of other MMOs, nobody was saying anything, how great was that? Chat was filled with LFG or GL Healer comments, is that the kind of "community" chat required?
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I just spend 1 hour in roleplaying session with some random people I met in Lion's Arch. Here we had a theatre:
Awesome experience. =P In WvW there is always chatter and some people I am startin g to recognise.
I think you already answered yourself with the very first part of your title: Action mmo.
My opinion is not fact and i don't have a huge study to back it up, but i truly, truly believe that the more focus exists on action nowadays, the less community will exist.
I think "calm", non violent activities naturally make players socialize alot more. Building a house or village, or vehicle to just ride together. Anything.
The problem of gameplay aka conbat centric video games, is that players are to focused on the battle at hand. Everyones focused on winning and reaching that objective. But it's not just action. There are non combat events in GW2, but when peole do them, they more concerned with filling the bar and getting their reward.
Communication exists in all mmo's, like dungeons and pvp, but there's very little socializing and bonding happening. Has already meantioned look at Rifts. Same thing is happening with Events.
There are indeed mini-games and crafting, but they're so minimal when compared to everything else, that, most likely, everyone wil just log in, play "alone" and leave, just like in every other mmo. But atleast, with no kill stealing and such, there'll maybe be less trolls. Thank god for that one.