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WoW cannot be legitimately bashed
Cryomatrix
Member EpicPosts: 3,223
Hey guys,
This is my 2nd new topic post, my first new topic was just a post about why I thought WoW might be unsatisfying to some people. This second post is an argument that I'm trying to make about why WoW shouldn't be bashed. This 2nd new topic stems from prior analysis that I made before playing WoW. Now I've had it for about two weeks now. I currently have a lvl 35 Orc Hunter and I'm getting a new video card upgrade and some RAM so I can actually PvP and not lag out to hell in Orgrimmar.
Anyway, I never understand why people bash video games the way that they do. This is a very haughty statement on my part, but I'm hopefully aiming to quell all WoW bashers with this post. Now I'm not going to tell you why WoW is awesome, because it is not. But I am going to try to convince you (arrogantly) that WoW should not be bashed period.
The argument will be based upon a number of precepts.
1. The casual gamer makes up >95% of all people that play video games (specifically WoW).
2. Blizzard's goal was to make money, money, and more money, and even more money after that.
3. Also that my defintions below of Good and Bad pertaining to video games are upheld.
Defintions:
Casual gamer = Someone looking for stress-free entertainment.
Good = some mechanism or concept in a game that for X>95% of the audience is appealing and attracts towards the game enhancing the gaming experience.
Bad = some mechanism or concept in a game that for X>95% of the audience is annoying and detracts from the game, hampering the gaming experience.
Part 1. Critique of how people bash video games.
- From what I've noticed most people will tell you a game sucks because they didn't like something.
For example: WoW sucks because it is repetitive, it sucks because the PvP system doesn't allow looting, WoW sucks because you level too fast. Wow sucks because it is too easy. WoW sucks because at lvl 60 there is nothing to do. It sucks because you have to do an instance a million times to get a piece of loot.
If you look at each complaint, I want you to think carefully about what would the players response be if it was the other way around. What happens if you could loot in PvP, so you get blindsided by a rogue or you get gang banged and the piece of special loot that took you 10 playing days to find is gone. What happens if instead of getting 225 xp by killing a lvl 36 monster solo (when you are lvl 35) now becomes 100 xp. It would take a lot longer to level up right, I'd still be level 16. Everyone would be like it's too slow. What happens if everyone could get the best equipment just by going through the game?
THe point i'm trying to make here is twofold. One is that of all your complaints, most people aren't considering the alternative, perhaps the alternative is way worse, perhaps the alternative gets 10 times more complaints than what is in place now. Secondly, most complains of WoW have been opinion based.
Well, when did people's opinions make something good or bad, since I don't enjoy Country music, should I say it sucks. Absolutely not, I don't like country music, but It's intellectually challenged to say it sucks because you don't like it. Essentially if you look at most posts of WoW it is basically, It didn't appeal to me and therefore it sucks. The point I'm trying to make here is that opinion does not make a game good or it does not make a game bad. If most people have negative opinions about a game it is probably a bad game, if most people have positive opinions about a game it is most likely good.
Part 2: empirically good and bad concepts within a game.
- So what makes something good in a game. I think the breadth and depth of WoW and the beauty of the world is quite appealing, I think it is an attractive part of the game. The quests and item bases are varied, the classes and trade skills give range towards the game. The horde vs alliance is a nice touch.
These are just examples of things within the game that I would think 95% of all people that have played WoW would agree on. (I obviously could be wrong).
- So what makes something bad in a game. Well, does WoW do anything bad, is there anything in this game that you would think 95% of people would complain about. One thing I might say is that at lvl 60 a person runs out of things to do. Also, after awhile the game becomes very repetitive. These are the only things I could consider, then again, I've only played for 2 weeks.
In response to the complaints about repetition and boredom, I just think blizzard ran out of code. Basically, the game has a limit, the game can be maxed out, they only have a limited number of areas in the game, albeit a huge amount of space, but how big can they make WoW. There has to be a limit. If they wanted to triple the number of areas and make new monsters they'd still be programming it.
Therefore, of course you are going to run out of things to do, that will happen with any game, there is only so much they can code within the game.
The complaint about repetition is a universal complaint with MMORPGs especially, I think Blizzard tried to attack this problem in part by creating the horde vs alliance and making contact and community experience separate. So once you made an alliance character, maxed out, did whatever, you said, let me get a look from the other side and you made a horde character.
But here is my question, what did Blizzard do that's bad in the game, what is something that 95%+ people would complain about, I don't think repetition is a valid claim and I don't think running out of things to do is a valid complaint either. Those are both unavoidable due to natural constraints. Essentially, what concept of WoW is bad that detracts from the game.
It is as my friend said, "World of Warcraft doesn't do anything amazing, they just do everything right." Essentially, WoW is not a broken game. There isn't really anything in WoW that will piss someone off just by playing it. One thing I'll admit was sort of pissing me off was that I was leveling my hunter in Ashenvale from lvl 26 to 29 and I was getting ganked left and right and I was getting bored of soloing. But then again, Ashenvale is the gank capital of Azeroth and I did choose the PvP realm and soloing will naturally be boring after awhile.
Part 3: So why does WoW have the most subscribers by a large margin.
- First of all, they geared their game for my first precept that 95%+ of people are casual gamers. Hence, it is easy as people say, the graphics are cartoony and appealing, the leveling is fast (my only other MMORPG experience is Diablo and it's friggin slow as molasses compared to diablo), you can solo it, there are non-pvp servers, there are simple quests and decent items are handed out all the time.
- Another reason is that WoW tries to reach to all types of gamers, yes they do focus on casual, but it still can provide for a wide range. Look at the 3 types of servers, that's a neat idea. The PvP aspect is also appealing to a wide range of people, the end-game instances, the PvP ranks, the new items. They did a good job trying to appeal to people.
- Also, as I mentioned above, in my friend's opinion (which I also share), Blizzard does everything right, they have a game that does not have a broken concept they have a game that will not piss people off just by playing it casually. Let me give you an analogy of a Car and compare it to WoW. WoW is like a full-option honda accord. It's flashy enough to be appealing and enjoyable, not BMW style or porsche style, but it is completely 100% reliable, the ride is smooth, the car is clean, the exterior is nice, the car is very quiet. Essentially, when you drive it, you forget that you are in a car and immerse yourself in the experience. In a broken game, if we compare it to a car, you would have a car that would be driving and then you'd have an annoying noise somewhere that will constantly pissing you off everytime you heard that noise. WoW doesn't have anything like that, it doesn't have anything that is annoying or broken to 95%+ of those who play it.
For example, i've been playing this game in a hardcore fashion since I got it about two weeks ago, and I can't tell you one thing that pisses me off without being ridiculously nitpicky, but I also can't tell you what is super appealing about it either. The only thing is the settings and the world are quite nice. I played Eq 2 trial, and it was okay, but then I didn't get 35 levels into it either, so who knows.
Part 5: Success.
- WoW is the #1 MMORPG out there by far in terms of subscribers, the game has performed as expected, it brought in the most subscribers (of course advertising had a part in it too). It has achieved its goal. The goal of WoW was to make the most money for blizzard period and they have succeeded with flying colors. The game has appealed to the majority of the MMORPG audience amongst other audiences. It has also attracted people to the game more than the other MMORPG. Thus the game has succeeded.
This is the reason that I don't think people should bash WoW. It does everything right for the casual gamer, for what I believe is 95%+ of the population, I don't think it has one broken aspect of the game that would detract from the casual gamer. Since, I believe the casual gamer makes up 95% of the population, the opinion of the non-casual gamer in reality is non-applicable. I also want to make another point that if the complaints that people made on this forum (refer to part 1) were changed by blizzard in accordance to the complaints, the game would then become broken or bad towards the 95%+ of the casual gamer.
In conclusion, make sure when you bash a game you are bashing a mechanism or a concept in a game that is an egregious error of the game that would have a negative effect on most of the audience. Also, you can't bash WoW, they succeeded completely in their objectives, they own the market, and there game is almost flawless in reference to the casual gamer. Since, the casual gamers make up most of the population, attracting them means attracting the people, attracting the people means attracting the money and in the end. MONEY RULES THE WORLD.
Sorry for this long post, but I was getting rather annoyed at people bashing WoW just because they didn't like something. Something I just thought of, look at the successful games in video game history, you'll notice one common theme amongst them. They were not broken in any way and they were relatively simple and stress free.
Thanks for the read,
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Comments
Very well said. This is exactly what I've wanted to tell these people that constantly bash games because they don't like them. Couldn't have said it better if I tried.
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WoW: Lamere, 70 Paladin on Jaedenar (retired)
DAoC: Cadore Ironmace, 50 Cleric (retired)
SWG: Dolthin Erid, Master CH/Master Pistoleer (NGE'd)
Waiting for: Warhammer Online/Age of Conan
Captain RPG,
If you read my first post carefully it wasn't a whine post as I was merely presenting what I have gathered from other posters and acknowledged that from the feedback it seems WoW is unsatisfying and I gave reasons for why I think Blizzard may have done what they did. I then proceeded to add a suggestion or two on how they may want to fix it, the reason was for overall depth.
About alienating myself and what not, I was just thinking about WoW of last night and after reading some bashers I thought I'd try to make a post that would get people who bash WoW to think of it from another angle, I completely understand what you say about the definitions, hence if you read my post carefully you will realize that I put the definitions out there clearly so people would know on what premises I was basing my thinking on. It was just a way I presented things so people would know the exact angle I was taking on the subject. It may be an angle people agree with it may be an angle people disagree with, but it is an angle.
On to another point the game was geared for casual gamers which is true but it doesn't mean the game will not have concepts that will attract the hardcore gamer.
Finally, your post could have been done without the petty insults, is there a particular reason you felt the need to flame me? I don't appreciate your unnecessary superfluous comments. Your post could have been made without the insults, you do realize how those comments reflect upon you?
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
No game can be "legitimately" bashed. People have different tastes and criteria and that's, more or less, the end of it, they seek different qualities in a game. Trying to prove that a game is "objectively" better or worse than another game is quite pointless.
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
The problem with your inital post, is you don't address the real problems people have with WoW, you simply counter the arguments that are easy to counter.
My problems with WoW:
1. The community is the worse I've ever seen in an MMO, and that's saying a lot since I've played Lineage II.
2. There is no reason to have other people on a server with me. I can go from level 1-60 without another soul on the server with me just as quickly as I can with a server full of people.
3. Crafting for dummies. The crafting system is horridly simple.
4. DON'T HAVE A RELIABLE PATCHER. Who the hell developes an MMO with no way to patch it? That's just stupid.
5. Wait queues. Only MMO I've ever had to wait for. Sure they have more people than any other mmo, they also have more servers than any other MMO.
Now let me look at those points from the "other angle"
1. If Blizzard was somehow able to fix this: Hmm yes I can see how having a better community would make this a worse game...oh wait no I can't.
2. Hmm make people interdependent in a MULTIPLAYER game. While some may say that this is "a bad thing" I can't see a downside to it.
3. A robust crafting system with options, yeah I see your point now, how horrible would that be?
4. Let's see, being able to patch their own game? Why then I wouldn't be able to see all those other cool websites...Yeah great loss there.
5. Ah yes fix the wait queues and then I might acutally get what I'm paying for. Perish the thought.
Wait queues? Lol, those have long been gone. I haven't seen those on either Azgalor or Archimonde (both High Pop Servers) in months.
If you're going to bash the game, get your facts straight. Been hanging out with Wepps too much?
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
They are launching new servers frequently to counter the population problem, so the problem is not one worth mentioning, but queues do exist. At least I can say that with certainty for the european PvP and RP (Argent Dawn) servers, although the wait is just a few mins, no biggy.
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
I read what you said and read again. Again, the point you miss is that people bash the game because the lack of socialism and variety. I look pass what they say and look at why they say it. The opinions they express have hidden message behind them and no matter how different the messages, a lot of the groups are like minded. People who say this class is overpowered or this game is repetitive are really looking for variety. Those who say it's too easy solo or the community sucks are really interest for the social aspect of the game and want to get involve with the community. And because they don't find these aspects in this game, most become frustrated and later express it in the form of a rant/rave.
I do agree, though, that the game gain success because they have elementals that appeal to different types of players.
Hmm let me do something new, let me bash my own post.
The main weakness to my post is that it is truly lacking empirical evidence, It would be nice to actually have statistics and profiles of most of the gamers out there. If I could get at hardcore evidence then I would actually make a more accurate analysis of the situation. Another point is that I haven't been playing the game as long as other people and I'm only a lvl 35 hunter. My computer lags so my PvP experience is limited to only when I run into an alliance player by chance.
Now to get to Captain RPG I could be wrong on why people bash the game. Basically I read a few WoW bashings and I took examples of some of the things that they said as you stated I may have not looked past what they said and thought about the reason why they were saying it.
The lack of variety is one concern, but I think people overtime will eventually get bored with the current state of variety. Yes I will admit the quests are really the same at all levels, but then again, how much different can you make the quests? Think about it.
About the social aspect, I am having trouble seeing how WoW is at fault for the bad community, I assume since the game is so easy and simple it attracts a younger crowd and that is the reason for the bad community, it could also be that with 3.5 million subscribers you have a lot of bad apples.
To reply to Jokodai or whatever. I was providing examples of common complaints that I have heard. Yes waiting lines are bad in MMORPG but that is a consequence of the amount of players. It's funny I just read on the bus an article in the metro newspaper about Shadowbane 2 or some game shutting down because they don't have enough people to play because WoW is completely owning the market.
On to another comment about the game being too easy and you can solo through it. Look closely at what Blizzard does they make the game completely soloable but they also make parts of the game interdependent upon other people like the instances and then make the instances have a higher reward. That is extremely intelligent of Blizzard because it caters to everybody, it gives people a little of both, if you had to be in interdependent on people to even get anywhere in a group then you would completely alienate the people who play casually which I think is the majority. The way that Blizzard did is perfect. It doesn't force anyone to do anything, if you want to get uber items then go do an instance, if you don't want to waste your time Looking for a group, then go ahead and be fine. It is a brilliant idea on Blizzard's part. I hear in Eq2 you have to be in a group or you can't proceed, hence there is a long waiting time of up to an hour to get a group. That my friend is an annoying noise in the car while you're driving.
My point about WoW that I want to drive home is that it was made to please the majority of people and it has succeeded with flying colors. People are simple-minded it is a fact of life, people are busy it is a fact of life, so make a game that caters to those people, throw in PvP, throw in some hook for hardcore gamers, and you have a game that should attract tons of people (Note: Blizzard is aided tremendously by their reputation). Blizzard made their game to attract the most people end of story. They obviously knew what people like and they made their game that way. You don't think the lead designer is not aware of how people would bash their game. You don't think they knew that a lot of people would say it's too easy and the graphics look like cartoons. Of course they knew that, but they also knew that the people who were going to say that and be turned off by it were in the far minority.
We always need to remember that they are the experts, I am not saying they can't screw up or make a mistake, but they know what they are doing, Blizzard especially.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Then I think you'll be interested in visiting Nick Yee's and The Deadalus Project site: www.nickyee.com
Currently playing:
* City of Heroes: Deggial, Assault Rifle/Devices Blaster. Server: Defiant.
* City of Villains: Snakeroot, Plant/Thorns Dominator. Server: Defiant.
Forgive me for not reading the whole thread - I have to admit I don't care enough to read it all, but the subject caught my eye, so here's my 2c.
Anything can be legitimately bashed.
If you don't like apple pie, you can criticize it. Maybe it's too sweet for your taste. Maybe you just don't like apples.
The same goes for WoW. Some people like it, some don't. Their opinions are all legitimate.
I don't think it requires several paragraphs to come to that conclusion.
Seems with we have sociologist in the room.
It's simply...WoW gets bashed by people who social norms frustrated at the gameplay and community so they "champion-ize" another MMORPG in hopes of filling in the void. What they were originally looking for out of WoW is pretty evident as most of the negative posts deal with repetitive gameplay and bordem. In a sense, they aren't trashing the game, they are making demands, but because most people are self-centered, they ask for what they want in civil manner.
Notice the number of WoW sucks attack from GW fans have died down. This is because GW fans were disappointed by GW inability to deliever the goods and make a better game. They had hoped GW would give them the experience WoW didn't. The front GW fanboys put on (past and present) is nothing more than a mask to hide their denials and fail expectations.
Now as for grouping aspect, GW also have those same problems as EQ, even with the use of henchmen. Due to the henchmen's unreliable AI, it's next to impossible to finish a quest or mission without them messing it up by attracting attention from nearby monsters, dying on you constantly or not doing their job. GW's teleport from town to town system also makes grouping difficult. Because you can teleport out of a group with ease, people payless attention to the groups join and focus more using them more to get their own prize. Even in WoW, the pricks in your party are more willing to stay in your party in a instance if there is something to be had.
Not the case with GW, the quest and mission are important and they are no true rewards except experience point, which is why people teleport at the drop of dime once they get what they want.
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You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Bah. Everyone who really played WoW and has previous MMORPG experience knows Levels 1-60 on WoW are a blast, Endgame (60) sucks.
People have different views on what makes a game good or bad. For me it was ok. It was fun getting up there, but after a month at 60 I was bored off my ass. I NEED a fun endgame for me to stick around.
The battlegrounds are a joke, and so is the honor system. You also have no impact on the world itself. I have played enough games like that. I now want to have an impact, more like DAoC. Or meaningful PvP like EvE or DAoC. PvP to get better items isnt meaningful PvP. Its just a different form of raiding.
This game wasnt bad, wasnt good either. It was OK.
Now bash me if you like, its your RIGHT!
________________________________
Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
WoW is bashed all the time and keeps gaining more subscribers every month. While other MMORPGs are bashed all the time and lose subscribers.
So this proves WoW is an amazing game, and people who bash it are:
a) People who are jealous of it's success and never played WoW and pretend they have
b) Hardcore gamers with no life that play 20 hours a day, 7 days a week with too many level 60 alts. And yes I agree if you play 20 hours a day, 7 days a week, EVEN *I* would get bored of this game... heck I would get bored of ANY GAME if that I played that much.
c) EQ2 fanboys
d) People that hate rerolling and are in between casual & hardcore gamers. I mean I'm a casual player, I have a level 60 hunter & paladin and a level 53 rogue. I'm still enjoying myself cause rerolling is fun. But I can understand some players if they only have 1 level 60 character, fully equipped with epics, has done Molten Core over 20 times, and are bored! Those people I understand! They worked hard for their character, they wanna keep playing their uber character, but don't have anything else to do! And Blizzard is kinda stupid cause I have yet to find a group to do Blackwind Lair!! NO ONE GOES THERE!!!! Not everyone is ready for it either! That's Blizzards fault. And d) are probably the only valid people that should be allowed to bash WoW. But of course... 90% of the complainers pretend they are part of group d) ... which sucks. But then again...
Which MMORPG is owning all other MMORPGs? WoW! So does it suck? Come play it for yourself and see why 4 million subscribers love it.
Cause I mean, if your friend jumps off a bridge, WILL YOU? Probably not.
But if 4 million people suddenly decide to jump off a bridge, shouldn't you start considering doing the same? I mean if 4 million people are doing, there's definatly something good down there!!!
___________ ___ __ _ _ _
Stealth - Ambush - Hemorrhage - Sinister Strike x2 - Cold Blood - Eviscerate - Vanish - Preparation - Cold Blood - Ambush - ... you're dead! :P
Not even sure where to begin with this, it's so utterly... opinionated, empty of logical argument. I know, try to make a point that uses the gameworld's vocabulary instead of trying to alter definitions that are established so that they support you.
Let's look at this.
Why does WoW have the subscriber base it has? And what constitute my complaints about the game? (remember, you specifically said no one could legitimately bash the game, and I'm not bashing it -- I'm explaing why, and giving concrete examples to support my arguments. It's called "intelligent discourse")
1. Blizzard. The game company that made Diablo2 and the Warcraft games makes an MMORPG. Built-in base of players that number in the millions translates to... a new game (the MMORPG) that has millions of subscribers. Wow! Who would have that?
2. Ease-of-play. Blizzard took almost every aspect of gameplay and dumbed them all down, in comparison to prior games. The simplest example is the placement of big yellow ? above NPC heads. Does the ? make an immersive gameworld that focuses on building the environment? No. It's a sop, thrown in to make it "easier" to find the NPCs who have things for players to do. Like people weren't smart enough to figure out they might need to talk to people to get information. EQ2 also has a mechanism for making finding NPC info-givers easier -- but theirs is consistent within the gameworld's environment and doesn't add something that is inconsistent in the environment: the NPC's with info wave and gesture and talk to you as you move past them, as they try to get your attention. That's called "making the mechanism fit the environment". Nothing Blizzard does in terms of making it "easier" to play the game are done with respect to keeping the environment consistent and clean (aka keeping game mechanisms "invisible" but effective). They are to be creditted for making a very smooth interface and for very good animations that make the use of the interface translate very neatly into actions on the screen. Crafting? Among the simplest (and most pointless) in any game. At no point will your crafted items be more worthwhile than what you can buy in the Auction House. Depth of recipes/abilities of design? Nada. Something like Horizons offers the ability to add special techniques that change the properties of an item, and a much more varied base of materials, but also the ability to build STRUCTURES in the game world like houses and bridges, etc and to work TOGETHER on doing so. Blizzard didn't go remotely to that level -- but they didn't WANT to, either. Adding that sort of complexity (though in Horizons the complexity is matched to a very easy-to-use system, which is the point) is precisely what Blizzard did NOT want to do, as it would be contrary to their overall design aims: a static gameworld that offers the ability to do lots of things, but none of them even remotely the most "innovative" or "deep" in comparison to other games.
3. Static world. Comments above on Horizons ability to build structures in the world and have their actions trigger world events (one specifically was tied to the ambitious building of a large bridge into a hitherto-unknown part of the world). AC1's actual "world events" that have changed the GEOGRAPHY of the gameworld as events happened (and those changes made sense within the game's environment and the STORY/LORE of the events happening), levelled towns, rebuilt towns, killed NPCs, brought in new ones, etc. AC1's seasons, that bring weather and environmental change based on the season. And gosh, AC1 came out in... 1999! With this level of complexity to the world's environment! Gosh! Perhaps someone who actually wants their actions to affect the gameworld environment, or who wants the world to actually change and evolve -- might have a LEGITIMATE complaint with the construction of WoW and the specific attitude on the part of Blizzard's development team. They have said that they have no intention of doing world events that change geography or kill any NPCs, because this is contradictory to their stated goal of making the game "such that everyone experiences it the same way and can experience everything themselves". That philosophy is a flat, stated guarantee that the world will NEVER be anything more than static. They'll introduce new places and new peoples in those places -- but they will be equally static as the ones already there. Look at their so-called "world events" already done. Ooh, a fishing tournament, that'll be cool. Oh, wait, a travelling circus (which moves, statically, through the static world, leaving behind no effects on anything). Santa Claus? Where is Santa Claus in the LORE of the Warcraft world? Or having actual "Easter eggs" in the world to celebrate Easter? Or the upcoming "Halloween" event -- again, these are decisions that reflect the real world but that DO NOT BELONG (the holiday ones) in the lore and environment of Warcraft, which ISN"T the real world and doesn't share its religious beliefs and holidays.
I could easily continue, but that's sufficient. Yes, you CAN address the shortcomings of WoW without BASHing it, because there are, in comparison to other games, many shortcomings. You CAN also criticize the game on legitimate grounds, for instance addressing the inability of players to do anything that affects/alters the gameworld environment at all. You CAN easily explain the subscriber base of WoW and NOT have to talk about the game's perceived quality or lack thereof, because there are easy and obvious explanations available.
But if 4 million people suddenly decide to jump off a bridge, shouldn't you start considering doing the same? I mean if 4 million people are doing, there's definatly something good down there!!!
--- end of quote ---
That's among the dumbest things I've ever heard. Could be that people are also lemmings, who jump to their deaths because they aren't smart enough to know better. I would hope that your comment was made facetiously, but I'm more scared by the fact that I don't think it was.
And before the mindless "ooh, he's an -x- fanboy" (fill in whatever game you choose for --x--), I'm not a fanboy of any game. I'm a fan of gaming environments where:
1) the game mechanics are as invisible as possible, but effective (like EQ2's waving and gesturing to get passing players attention to the quest/info-givers; and for the record there are tons of mechanisms in EQ2 that do intrude and that I loathe), where the information is relayed to the player within the context of the environment and WITHOUT having the game mechanic intrude into that environment.
2) the player can actually AFFECT something. So, use Horizons ability (and for that matter A Tale in the Desert, too) to build structures in the gameworld, where they are unique structures, and where other players can SEE your construction taking place over time.
3) the design encourages players to help others and BUILD the environment (speaking from a community-evolution perspective). I'll fall back on Horizons again, where multiple players can work together to build houses and other structures like bridges. The crafting is easy but enormously deep and its design ENCOURAGES people to work together to achieve things (or you can do it yourself and have it take a very long time, in some cases, representing the fact that you can't build the Golden Gate Bridge by yourself without it taking a long time).
4) the gameworld isn't static. See #2 and #3 as a good example of what constitutes "not being static" (aka, definition of static, as in, unchanging or inert). This would be where the example shifts now to AC1, where world events were triggered by player actions and would raze towns, change geography, kill NPCs, bring about new NPCs over time, new towns over time, etc. Seasons occur in AC1, bringing unique weather patterns (not just the random-rain of EQ2, which is STILL better than the zero-weather WoW, where the snow in the dwarven starting area will ALWAYS be the same, period, forever). Couple real, non-static world events with players impacting the world in terms of community efforts and phyiscally -- and you have a non-static gameworld environment. And you have the exact opposite of WoW.
5) immersive gameworld. WoW is a masterpiece in one aspect of this, and an utter failure in the other. In terms of an open design that allows players to roam the world at will and learn where they can go and when, WoW is excellent. The game mechanics of restricting players from doing certain things until they're powerful enough are designed to be in the player's hands -- specifically unlike EQ2, which launched with a hideous number of mechanics that intruded into the gameworld (spoiling the consistency of the environment and immersion of it) and limited the player's learning anything, like doors you can get keys for but can't use until "you have a party of four people, plus a trained monkey who can also play the Banjo". (ooh, look, he bashed EQ2 -- because it's a real complaint, from the perspective of what I'm explaining). And WoW fails utterly in being immersive, in terms of #1 - #4, all of which contribute to immersion. They do very well on some quests -- like the excellent one in the night elf area, with the old night elf on the pier who wants you to free his wife from her torment; where the conversation that plays out when you return successful between him and his dead wife is EXCELLENT. The pity is, that sort of depth and story is missing from the majority of quests -- and this is by no means a failing that is unqiue to WoW.
There. Take that, "WoW cannot be legitimately bashed". Sure it can. Easily so. The key is, it isn't bashing (bashing would be "oh, this game sux 'cause i said so, bleh"), it's criticizing and doing so carefully and clearly. Whether WoW is the best thing or crap depends on the criteria you're using to judge it -- and no, quality has NOTHING to do with SUBSCRIBER numbers. It has to do with the criteria that define quality, the game itself. Not the #s playing it.
Erm been level 35 means your long post is almost pointless to the number 1 complaint with most people.
The main complaint i seen from me and many others is once you hit 60 this fantastic game takes a very sharp nose dive down.
The content for the casual gamers at 60 is almost non existant.
PvE- a few instances for 60s.Get bored of recycling them after a few weeks.Yes there is MC and few uber bosses which are not for most casuals as you need high end guild with good co ordination and even the few uber things to do bores ot quickly as in fact there is not that much eithereven for hardcores.
PvP- initally a total disaster for the casauals as there is a pyramid system that all but ensures the casuals never get any descent rewards.They now added faction rewards for doing BG which means as a casual you can slowly(let me say it again slooooooowly) drag yourself to exhalted and get some nice gear.But again it ensures you sit in a BG doing same over and over.It is a small area with limited numbers.
You would think a game with so many players will not limit the numbers and rather give us a big battlefield with unlimited numbers as DAoC did in oh back 4 years!
They are launching new servers frequently to counter the population problem, so the problem is not one worth mentioning, but queues do exist. At least I can say that with certainty for the european PvP and RP (Argent Dawn) servers, although the wait is just a few mins, no biggy.
Apology accepted Ico. Like I tell Wepps, I'm not one of the typical brainless masses you find. I take the time to do the research.
I understand what the OP is trying to say, but the post is largely flawed.
WoW is a hugely enjoyable game. For a casual gamer you can play for 20 minutes, and still get something done, you can group if you want too, play for an hour, or 5, from 1-60. The journey is fun, because there are a lot of things to do along the way. As I levelled I worked on raising tradeskills, and secondary skills, quested for XP, better rep, and sometimes a nice item, grouped to do an instance run, focused on raising cash to buy a mount. In the 50s I started to join the TM raids, to get honor points and a rank.
However.
PvE.
1. At level 60 EVERYTHING becomes a grind.
2. Quests no longer give XP, so there is no point doing them unless A. they give rep with a faction, such as Argent Dawn, or B. end with an item you can use. So you look for quests that reward with an item for the class you play, and notice that there are very few that do, and you can often buy better from the AH. Doing repeatable quests for reputation is just a grind, a timesink.
3. Epic Mount. Most classes must buy their mount. This involves a serious grind to farm cash from the mobs of your choice. The whole process of getting an epic mount is not interesting.
4. Tradeskills. Getting to 300 skill in your 2 proffessions is fairly easy. At level 60, in certain professions you can obtain rare and even epic recipes for REALLY nice items. However to get these special recipes involves grinding for reputation, or doing instances and hoping the recipe drops. Also, you need to grind for the ingredients to make the item.
5. Character progression. At level 60 you no longer get new skills/abilities, no new talents, no more levels; so you can only raise your stats, attack power, health points, etc. through getting weapon and armor upgrades. Up to a point you can keep improving by buying from the AH, but most of the better items bind on pickup, so you must win the roll, and loot the item. So you will end up doing instances. These take to get into or set up, take time to get to, and more time to actually do, to reach the boss that actually drops the item, and even then it is a random chance the item might drop. You'll do the same few instances over and over until you get your drops.
PvP.
1. Dishonor. Due to the fact that at least one idiot in your town raid will kill a civilian NPC, thus giving the whole raid group a dishonor kill, and due to the low amount of reward for town raiding, these now rarely happen.
2. So you must queue for BG. On low pop servers, with a signifigant faction imbalance, you can queue for a LONG time.
3. Pickup BG groups will often be disorganised, and beaten easily by players that enter as a group. A casual gamer is more likely to be in pickup groups.
4. Large scale Bg, Alterac Valley, often does not happen at all on low pop servers, and when it does it is often a mess. Too many people farming rep, questing, not enough fighting the enemy and trying to win the BG.
At 60, as a casual, just GETTING into BG is a problem, but add to that the fact that you can only progress so far before you hit a brick wall, means you may just not bother to PvP at all.
Blizzard KNOWS there is a problem with level 60 casual content, be it raids, instances, quests, or simply soloable stuff. They announced upcoming changes in futures patches to address this issue.
Since you claim WoW is primarily aimed at the casual gamer, and owes much of it's success to this fact, I choose to point out ALL the things that are wrong with WoW, in the way they address casual gamer content. So, yes, WoW can be legitimatley bashed, and no, it does not do everything right, far from it.
Gettig bored. Is lack of endgame content pre-expansion, any different from every other MMORPG out there? Yes, so the problem is the genre, not the game. You getting bored is more due to how often you play rather than the game. Everything becomes boring when you play 12 hrs a day. Blame yourself, not the game.
Is the community a problem due to so many newer players to the genre? Yes. Is it the game's problem? Partly, but the reason its so succesful is because of its ease to get into. So, would Blizzard sacrifice a better community for only 50K subscriptions? Certainly not. At least they don't force you to solo like other games force you to group. You have a choice. Both are actually FUN and thats whats important. Which is worse? Another MMORPG that requires to group constantly or one that gives you a choice?
Dumbed down game mechanics is more perception than reality. Please explain how the most succesful MMORPGs are any DEEPER? I'd like to know how its even possible to compare the fun and number of options you have playing a Warrior, Priest or Mage in WoW compared to the same class in EQ or DAOC? Blizzard does it a lot better, a lot faster and it requires more input from the player. Thats a good thing. Its even less gear dependant than EQ and DAOC. Gear matters a lot since it has to, but some skill can overcome the odds. How is the crafting system in WOW any more dumbed down than DOAC or EQ? You find or buy the mats and you press a few buttons to put them together. No different. EQ2 did expand crafting, but then again, its not that much better. Crafting could've been better but its certainly not any worse. Crafting is accesible. If its too complicated, no one would do it. "Overly complicated" is why most people don't bother playing MMORPGs in the first place. Now that they do, its seen as a bad feature?
PvP being pointless? Everything that some might see as pointless is exactly why WOW is succesful. Add in looting rights and persistant graveyard ownership and you just lost 95% of the your playerbase. Everyone on the lower populated sides would quit because they wuold be unabkle to play. Which is a better business decision? Honestly, DAOC is also fun, but it becomes just as repetative and pointless, since you really never get anywhere. Populations determine PvP success. WHoever gangs up on the other guys win and since keeps are just a neverending fight, how is that never ending fight any different from the Battlegrounds? The difference is, the Battlegrounds dont turn into a slideshow when 200 players show up=) DKs are there so people can actually play the game and not be crippled by a few players since that all it would take to completely shut down all questing for one side. Is it Blizzards fault that players can't control themsevles in cities and AOE every NPC around them? Its the PLAYER'S fault. I've run by enemy quest givers and NPCs and they never attack me because I don't attack them. Who's fault is it?
The only way for PvP NOT to be pointless is for one side to win and thats not going to keep people playing the game. See Shadowbane for the most recent example. Everything in a MMORPG is never ending. Thats the genre.
WOW gets boring for some because you've been playing MMORPGs so much and you've probably become jaded. Very little will appease you. Don't blame the games. Its just a cycle.
With all due respect, you don't have a clue. I don't think you've even read half the posts in this thread.
If you play 12 hours a day you finish the content sooner, that's true. However, if you DO play 12 hours a day you can spend time at lvl 60 in the BGs and high end raid instances. From 1-60 the game gives you lots of things to do, even if you play for 2 hours a day. But it is so easy to level that you will hit 60 without really trying. I know, I did. But AT 60 it just becomes a grind. Having MORE time play is better, since you can at least do the instances. If you want to pop for an hour, say before you go out, there nothing interesting to do in that hour.
Dumbed down game mechanics is more perception than reality.
No. Fact. Crafting is over simplified. Look at SWG or Horizons. Quests are all flagged by ? and !. Look at the way EQ2 does it. And don't compare WoW to games that are 2-3 years old. Older games made mistakes, Blizzard should have learned from them, not copied them. What gamers want is NOT the grind from EQ but the amount of XP need to level. In EQ ALL you could do was kill monsters to level, and most people used the most efficient method, which was camping a certain spot. It got the job done but was boring. WoW gave us other things to do than purely grind in the same small area of the game, but also made levelling far too easy. In WoW doing quests in different places, with their different challenges, is fun, so needing more XP per level would not be a problem, since you would have MORE fun questing.
Overly complicated? You miss the point. It's about learning and growth. EQ was never complicated, it was just detailed, lots of different things to learn in game. The game engine did not tell you ALL you needed to know, you had to play to find out. Take horizons. The game does not lead you through every thing you need to know, you have to explore, and find out, ask players, or just discover it.
PvP being pointless. Now you are talking out of your back end. War in WoW is like a game with points, that's all, BGs are like large colloseums where we can play at war. But it doesn't really matter who wins or loses a BG, it's just a game. I suggest you read the WOW website more. Not only do a lot of players HATE the current honor system and BGs in general but Blizzard have proposed some new content to be added in the future to give non-BG PvP a purpose again. There will be objectives, maybe a castle, or town, outside of BG, than can be captured, and will adversley affect you if you don't win it back.
Finally.
WOW gets boring for some because you've been playing MMORPGs so much and you've probably become jaded. Very little will appease you. Don't blame the games. Its just a cycle.
Err, wake up please. WoW is NOT boring presisely because I have played other mmorpgs. But it GETS boring when it becomes just LIKE those other mmos. 1-max level in EQ was a boring grind. Not in WoW. Max level in EQ is a boring raid grind, not suited to the casual gamer. WoW is a boring raid grind at 60, not suited to the casual gamer.
Let me put it this way. WoW was fun, interesting, engaging, all the way from level one noob area through to level 59. But once you hit 60.....