I tried to make it short. I hope it isn't too confusing.
I remember this debate on the swtor forums. It boiled down to soloers wanting to obtain the same gear that raiders/wz pvpers can achieve.
People really got into it. There was a lot of hate and rudness put into those posts. I personally was biased to group content because I raided in wow for several years. I said some stupid crap about how soloers should get gear made specific for solo content, raiding gear for raiders, and so on.
I wish I could take it back, because you know what grind my gears? Gear grinds. I'm so sick of them.
I would be really interested to see what would happen to WoW if the only gear that is obtainable is through crafting in the open world. I can't honestly really know what would happen. Maybe raiding would become more casual because more individuals will raid because they enjoy raiding. Hell, arena might become a lot less popular, but it may very well become more competetive. One thing I can be sure of is that players will be playing content that is enjoyable for them. They won't be just doing it for the advancement of gear which can explain why we run into sooooo many grumpy ppl in wzs/dungeons.
Maybe the key to ending these solo vs group, raiding vs pvp, and wzs vs arena stuff is to remove the gear that pressures players into specific content. That way, players won't have to drag their feet through content they dislike or can't dedicate their time to.
I believe that is the answer, and the more I play GW2, the more I believe it.
I would be really interested to see what would happen to WoW if the only gear that is obtainable is through crafting in the open world. I can't honestly really know what would happen. Maybe raiding would become more casual because more individuals will raid because they enjoy raiding. Hell, arena might become a lot less popular, but it may very well become more competetive. One thing I can be sure of is that players will be playing content that is enjoyable for them. They won't be just doing it for the advancement of gear which can explain why we run into sooooo many grumpy ppl in wzs/dungeons.
Maybe the key to ending these solo vs group, raiding vs pvp, and wzs vs arena stuff is to remove the gear that pressures players into specific content. That way, players won't have to drag their feet through content they dislike or can't dedicate their time to.
I like the idea in general, I hate gear-whoring, but half the reason these games force people to grind is to keep them paying month after month (or buying things through the shop). That's half their strategy for staying in business. I doubt you'd see any company toss away the grinding without replacing it with something else equally lucrative.
I'd also like to see it required that people craft their own gear. Otherwise you're going to see gold farmers turn into crafting farmers, making high-end armor and selling it for real money offline. I'd really like to see the games stop being about selling and trading and more about doing things for yourself.
This is because of demand, its funny how I see so many solo players trying to convince us that your way is the best way, or the only way, but the game devs dont agree with you. The proof is in all the latest MMOs.
Its all about the game mechanics, if the game rewards a player for being more group friendly, then you will see more of it, even from soloers. I think games can cater to all of us, if the mechanics are done right.
Do you actually believe this nonsense?
Where are the solo players trying to convince you that their way is the best way or the only way? This is simply a construct your mind made up to push blame for whatever failings you have regarding certain games you may have played onto those evil soloers instead of yourself.
Most soloers, myself included, don't care about your playstyle, we care about our playstyle and simply don't want to have to deal with yours (being forced to sit in a group with you and put up with all the nonsense and stupidity that make up modern mmo groups).
As for rewards, you can heap on all the 'rewards' you like its not going to make soloers suddenly become groupers. Its simply going to create what you state you despise, lots of complaining on the forums.
I think where you are going off the rails with your thinking is your mistaken belief that MMO's are created for groupers. The fact is MMO's are created for whatever audience the developers decide they're for and I doubt any developer is going to totally remove solo content to cater to your particular playstyle when there are plent of solo players who are willing to pay them for a subscription.
I enjoy soloing...A LOT! You can be greedy and feel stronger after downing couple bosses(Depending on game Ofc)
BUT as a downside i also like to chat and be social, there are some players who i've chatted with that i feel like im going to miss, but can't / forget to firend them (As example WoW has mixed instances between servers...)
I wouldn't start to compare these two because i think i have balanced them myself. While i don't enjoy PvP (normally) i sometimes go Looking For Group. And the rest of the time i solo
This is because of demand, its funny how I see so many solo players trying to convince us that your way is the best way, or the only way, but the game devs dont agree with you. The proof is in all the latest MMOs.
Its all about the game mechanics, if the game rewards a player for being more group friendly, then you will see more of it, even from soloers. I think games can cater to all of us, if the mechanics are done right.
Do you actually believe this nonsense?
Where are the solo players trying to convince you that their way is the best way or the only way? This is simply a construct your mind made up to push blame for whatever failings you have regarding certain games you may have played onto those evil soloers instead of yourself.
Most soloers, myself included, don't care about your playstyle, we care about our playstyle and simply don't want to have to deal with yours (being forced to sit in a group with you and put up with all the nonsense and stupidity that make up modern mmo groups).
As for rewards, you can heap on all the 'rewards' you like its not going to make soloers suddenly become groupers. Its simply going to create what you state you despise, lots of complaining on the forums.
I think where you are going off the rails with your thinking is your mistaken belief that MMO's are created for groupers. The fact is MMO's are created for whatever audience the developers decide they're for and I doubt any developer is going to totally remove solo content to cater to your particular playstyle when there are plent of solo players who are willing to pay them for a subscription.
Think again.
Have you even read this thread? You dont see soloers trying to convince players that MMOs are for soloers?
You seriously need to rethink your position, and read the above posts, there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players.
Team players are there for the fun, while your there to collect pixels. Try again pal.
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This is because of demand, its funny how I see so many solo players trying to convince us that your way is the best way, or the only way, but the game devs dont agree with you. The proof is in all the latest MMOs.
Its all about the game mechanics, if the game rewards a player for being more group friendly, then you will see more of it, even from soloers. I think games can cater to all of us, if the mechanics are done right.
Do you actually believe this nonsense?
Where are the solo players trying to convince you that their way is the best way or the only way? This is simply a construct your mind made up to push blame for whatever failings you have regarding certain games you may have played onto those evil soloers instead of yourself.
Most soloers, myself included, don't care about your playstyle, we care about our playstyle and simply don't want to have to deal with yours (being forced to sit in a group with you and put up with all the nonsense and stupidity that make up modern mmo groups).
As for rewards, you can heap on all the 'rewards' you like its not going to make soloers suddenly become groupers. Its simply going to create what you state you despise, lots of complaining on the forums.
I think where you are going off the rails with your thinking is your mistaken belief that MMO's are created for groupers. The fact is MMO's are created for whatever audience the developers decide they're for and I doubt any developer is going to totally remove solo content to cater to your particular playstyle when there are plent of solo players who are willing to pay them for a subscription.
Think again.
Have you even read this thread? You dont see soloers trying to convince players that MMOs are for soloers?
You seriously need to rethink your position, and read the above posts, there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players.
Team players are there for the fun, while your there to collect pixels. Try again pal.
I think you really need to rethink your position and re-read the thread. Not a single person in this thread has ever stated that MMO's are only for soloers.
However they have stated that soloers can, do and should enjoy MMO's just like groupers. And developers are catering to them in many parts as well. As has been stated many many times before the multiplayer in MMO does not mean grouping, it does mean interaction, there are many many many other ways to interact with people other than grouping. Additionally there actually are people in this thread stating that MMO's should only be for groupers
there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players. But once again it is not the soloers that are solely puersuing the gear, IMO it is mostly the groupers. Most soloers don't raid, it goes against what they like, or their reasons for soloing.
Solo players are the ones that are there for fun, just as much as group players. You are there just to collect your pixels.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I think you really need to rethink your position and re-read the thread. Not a single person in this thread has ever stated that MMO's are only for soloers.
However they have stated that soloers can, do and should enjoy MMO's just like groupers. And developers are catering to them in many parts as well. As has been stated many many times before the multiplayer in MMO does not mean grouping, it does mean interaction, there are many many many other ways to interact with people other than grouping. Additionally there actually are people in this thread stating that MMO's should only be for groupers
there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players. But once again it is not the soloers that are solely puersuing the gear, IMO it is mostly the groupers. Most soloers don't raid, it goes against what they like, or their reasons for soloing.
Solo players are the ones that are there for fun, just as much as group players. You are there just to collect your pixels.
I think you need to look back through the posts, this thread is full of soloers saying they want to be able to solo everything, they want to solo raids, they want the same gear as group content gives, they want this, that and the other. The pro-groupers just want the games to be different to a single player RPG, the soloers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own single player game with a chatroom.
I think you really need to rethink your position and re-read the thread. Not a single person in this thread has ever stated that MMO's are only for soloers.
However they have stated that soloers can, do and should enjoy MMO's just like groupers. And developers are catering to them in many parts as well. As has been stated many many times before the multiplayer in MMO does not mean grouping, it does mean interaction, there are many many many other ways to interact with people other than grouping. Additionally there actually are people in this thread stating that MMO's should only be for groupers
there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players. But once again it is not the soloers that are solely puersuing the gear, IMO it is mostly the groupers. Most soloers don't raid, it goes against what they like, or their reasons for soloing.
Solo players are the ones that are there for fun, just as much as group players. You are there just to collect your pixels.
I think you need to look back through the posts, this thread is full of soloers saying they want to be able to solo everything, they want to solo raids, they want the same gear as group content gives, they want this, that and the other. The pro-groupers just want the games to be different to a single player RPG, the soloers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own single player game with a chatroom.
But not a single person has stated that MMO's should be only for solo.
Wanting to be able to solo everything is a very different stance than saying that MMO's should be only for solo.
MMO's, even the most solo friendly ones are different from spg's. There is far far far more interaction with other players in an MMO, however that does not mean grouping.
Soloers aren't redisgning anything. Devs are catering to them, and soloing has been in MMO's since the very begining.
Pro-groupers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own enforced friend and party system.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I think you really need to rethink your position and re-read the thread. Not a single person in this thread has ever stated that MMO's are only for soloers.
However they have stated that soloers can, do and should enjoy MMO's just like groupers. And developers are catering to them in many parts as well. As has been stated many many times before the multiplayer in MMO does not mean grouping, it does mean interaction, there are many many many other ways to interact with people other than grouping. Additionally there actually are people in this thread stating that MMO's should only be for groupers
there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players. But once again it is not the soloers that are solely puersuing the gear, IMO it is mostly the groupers. Most soloers don't raid, it goes against what they like, or their reasons for soloing.
Solo players are the ones that are there for fun, just as much as group players. You are there just to collect your pixels.
I think you need to look back through the posts, this thread is full of soloers saying they want to be able to solo everything, they want to solo raids, they want the same gear as group content gives, they want this, that and the other. The pro-groupers just want the games to be different to a single player RPG, the soloers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own single player game with a chatroom.
But not a single person has stated that MMO's should be only for solo.
Wanting to be able to solo everything is a very different stance than saying that MMO's should be only for solo.
MMO's, even the most solo friendly ones are different from spg's. There is far far far more interaction with other players in an MMO, however that does not mean grouping.
Soloers aren't redisgning anything. Devs are catering to them, and soloing has been in MMO's since the very begining.
Pro-groupers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own enforced friend and party system.
Yes they have said MMOs should be completly soloable, you obviously have not read any of this thread.
You guys want NO distinction from solo content and group content, meaning you dont belive groupers should get any rewards from grouping that you cant get solo. You also want to solo, any and all group content. which obvioulsy negates the group content.
Then you claim MMOs were solo to begin with? That is completly false, and I honestly cant believe you would think anyone is going to believe that. Seriously just wow!
I think you really need to rethink your position and re-read the thread. Not a single person in this thread has ever stated that MMO's are only for soloers.
However they have stated that soloers can, do and should enjoy MMO's just like groupers. And developers are catering to them in many parts as well. As has been stated many many times before the multiplayer in MMO does not mean grouping, it does mean interaction, there are many many many other ways to interact with people other than grouping. Additionally there actually are people in this thread stating that MMO's should only be for groupers
there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players. But once again it is not the soloers that are solely puersuing the gear, IMO it is mostly the groupers. Most soloers don't raid, it goes against what they like, or their reasons for soloing.
Solo players are the ones that are there for fun, just as much as group players. You are there just to collect your pixels.
I think you need to look back through the posts, this thread is full of soloers saying they want to be able to solo everything, they want to solo raids, they want the same gear as group content gives, they want this, that and the other. The pro-groupers just want the games to be different to a single player RPG, the soloers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own single player game with a chatroom.
But not a single person has stated that MMO's should be only for solo.
Wanting to be able to solo everything is a very different stance than saying that MMO's should be only for solo.
MMO's, even the most solo friendly ones are different from spg's. There is far far far more interaction with other players in an MMO, however that does not mean grouping.
Soloers aren't redisgning anything. Devs are catering to them, and soloing has been in MMO's since the very begining.
Pro-groupers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own enforced friend and party system.
Yes they have said MMOs should be completly soloable, you obviously have not read any of this thread.
You guys want NO distinction from solo content and group content, meaning you dont belive groupers should get any rewards from grouping that you cant get solo. You also want to solo, any and all group content. which obvioulsy negates the group content.
Then you claim MMOs were solo to begin with? That is completly false, and I honestly cant believe you would think anyone is going to believe that. Seriously just wow!
No one has stated they should be ONLY soloable.
No. If you want to group go for it, you should get rewarded. If you want to solo go for it, you should get rewarded. Rewards should be based on success.
No it doesn't negate all group content, see above.
There SHOULD be alternative pathways for both. People will choose the one they have more fun with.
I never said MMO's were ONLY solo, I said you could solo in all MMO"s. Yes you could solo in UO, yes you could solo to cap in EQ with almost half the classes.
Seriously just wow!
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
But not a single person has stated that MMO's should be only for solo.
Wanting to be able to solo everything is a very different stance than saying that MMO's should be only for solo.
MMO's, even the most solo friendly ones are different from spg's. There is far far far more interaction with other players in an MMO, however that does not mean grouping.
Soloers aren't redisgning anything. Devs are catering to them, and soloing has been in MMO's since the very begining.
Pro-groupers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own enforced friend and party system.
You're obviously not understanding human nature, where we all go the path of least resistance, which has been stated many times in this thread. If everything is soloable then people will solo, as simple as that, it'll remove any need for groups because there wouldn't BE a need for groups if people can do it all themselves. To incorporate both playstyles while making them both viable I think is simply an impossible task. A developer needs to choose one or the other.
Pro-groupers just want to keep a multiplayer game as a multiplayer game. If you can solo everything in a multiplayer game then that game has failed in its genre. It's no better than a single player game with a chat room.
Anyone find it wierd how fantasy fiction, on which most MMO's are based, usually have a single hero or small group of hero's and the fictional content is usually a single soloable (by the hero) or small groupable (by the small group) villian but in MMO's the expectation by a lot of people is in game villians must only be destroyable with large numbers of people.
Pretty bizarre.
@Usual Suspect, you are having a hard time understanding because your definition of multiplayer in MMO's is seriously flawed.
You can do heaps of things solo in the real world, does that make everything you do in the real world by yourself single player too? If I go speeding down the road in my car, can I discount everyone else on the road because I'm in the car by myself?.
Your assertion that doing something solo in a game world in which many other players are also doing things in the same game world, somehow makes whatever they are doing inconsequtial to other players is total nonsense.
But not a single person has stated that MMO's should be only for solo.
Wanting to be able to solo everything is a very different stance than saying that MMO's should be only for solo.
MMO's, even the most solo friendly ones are different from spg's. There is far far far more interaction with other players in an MMO, however that does not mean grouping.
Soloers aren't redisgning anything. Devs are catering to them, and soloing has been in MMO's since the very begining.
Pro-groupers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own enforced friend and party system.
You're obviously not understanding human nature, where we all go the path of least resistance, which has been stated many times in this thread. If everything is soloable then people will solo, as simple as that, it'll remove any need for groups because there wouldn't BE a need for groups if people can do it all themselves. To incorporate both playstyles while making them both viable I think is simply an impossible task. A developer needs to choose one or the other.
Pro-groupers just want to keep a multiplayer game as a multiplayer game. If you can solo everything in a multiplayer game then that game has failed in its genre. It's no better than a single player game with a chat room.
Except as has also been stated many time in this threaed, it is not true. So you are not understanding human nature. Yes many will do the path of least resistance, however many will also do what they enjoy the mostm and that is the key, people will end up playing the game they enjoy most and playing the style they enjoy most. If people like grouping then they will group. WoW has shown that. They made grouping (dungeons) just as easy and rewarding as soloing (quests) and many many many, some even say the majorty are now grouping up more than soloing.
Also who says soloing is easier. There is no reason whatsoever that soloing needs to be easier than grouping. Actually if the soloer takes the same mobs as the group, than soloing is harder. However it can be made even more difficult via simple puzzles or mini games, and I'm sure many other people can think of many other ways.
No. A developer doesn't have to choice on or the other. They can simply choose activites that are solo or group. Again, even the dreaded wow has found a solution that offers a great deal of soloing shoulder you, or a great deal of grouping should you wish.
A multiplayer game only means you have opportunity to interact - thats it, nothing more.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
A multiplayer game only means you have opportunity to interact - thats it, nothing more.
Really? People are still holding onto this belief? If you only have the opportunity to interact, that's called a chat room. A multiplayer game involves two or more players working against or with each other. Name me one multiplayer game that simply gives the opportunity for you to interact. And count MMO's out of that, they're the problem, not the example.
Let's try a list here:
Multiplayer Pool - "What do you mean it's my shot? I'm not here to play against you.".
Multiplayer Blood Bowl - "No, my team isn't moving, I just want to chat if thats okay?"
Multiplayer Call of Duty - "No! You can't shoot me, I don't want to fight today.".
A multiplayer game only means you have opportunity to interact - thats it, nothing more.
Really? People are still holding onto this belief? If you only have the opportunity to interact, that's called a chat room. A multiplayer game involves two or more players working against or with each other. Name me one multiplayer game that simply gives the opportunity for you to interact. And count MMO's out of that, they're the problem, not the example.
Let's try a list here:
Multiplayer Pool - "What do you mean it's my shot? I'm not here to play against you.".
Multiplayer Blood Bowl - "No, my team isn't moving, I just want to chat if thats okay?"
Multiplayer Call of Duty - "No! You can't shoot me, I don't want to fight today.".
The list goes on and on.
A chat room doesn't have a game portion. A chat room doesn't let you buy/sell, craft, take orders, auction, group, quest, go on dungeon runs, pvp, random drive by heals, buffs, kills... so no, your wrong. There are many many many forms of interaction in an MMO, grouping is just one.
There are many games in pool, some have teams, some are solo, sometimes its just a bunch of friends hanging out.
And in some games there is a very limited form of interaction. But MMO's have many many forms of interaction.
Keep trying though.
edit - in any one specific game, the rules of the game may dictate how interaction occurs. That may be just taking turns, it may be something else. But MMO's have many different forms of interaction and all are equally viable.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
A multiplayer game only means you have opportunity to interact - thats it, nothing more.
Really? People are still holding onto this belief? If you only have the opportunity to interact, that's called a chat room. A multiplayer game involves two or more players working against or with each other. Name me one multiplayer game that simply gives the opportunity for you to interact. And count MMO's out of that, they're the problem, not the example.
Let's try a list here:
Multiplayer Pool - "What do you mean it's my shot? I'm not here to play against you.".
Multiplayer Blood Bowl - "No, my team isn't moving, I just want to chat if thats okay?"
Multiplayer Call of Duty - "No! You can't shoot me, I don't want to fight today.".
The list goes on and on.
The games you listed are all pure adversarial games (you directly compete against another person).
Try
Sailing, Rally Racing, Mountain Climbing, Picking up girls in bars... there are tons of things we do, were we don't directly interact but we are in competition.
Anyone find it wierd how fantasy fiction, on which most MMO's are based, usually have a single hero or small group of hero's and the fictional content is usually a single soloable (by the hero) or small groupable (by the small group) villian but in MMO's the expectation by a lot of people is in game villians must only be destroyable with large numbers of people.
Pretty bizarre.
@Usual Suspect, you are having a hard time understanding because your definition of multiplayer in MMO's is seriously flawed.
You can do heaps of things solo in the real world, does that make everything you do in the real world by yourself single player too? If I go speeding down the road in my car, can I discount everyone else on the road because I'm in the car by myself?.
Your assertion that doing something solo in a game world in which many other players are also doing things in the same game world, somehow makes whatever they are doing inconsequtial to other players is total nonsense.
And you guys claim we are trying to tell you soloers how to play MMOs...HAHA!
Look at you, first you tell usualsuspect his definition of MMO is wrong, when it isnt, because there isnt one definition for all people.
Then you equate a MMO to a movie???? So game devs should redesign thier MMOs after movies, are you serious???
Then you try and equate real life with an MMO, by driving a car down the road? Sorry but your making one strawman after another.
How about you stick to the topic, can you do that?
A multiplayer game only means you have opportunity to interact - thats it, nothing more.
Really? People are still holding onto this belief? If you only have the opportunity to interact, that's called a chat room. A multiplayer game involves two or more players working against or with each other. Name me one multiplayer game that simply gives the opportunity for you to interact. And count MMO's out of that, they're the problem, not the example.
Let's try a list here:
Multiplayer Pool - "What do you mean it's my shot? I'm not here to play against you.".
Multiplayer Blood Bowl - "No, my team isn't moving, I just want to chat if thats okay?"
Multiplayer Call of Duty - "No! You can't shoot me, I don't want to fight today.".
The list goes on and on.
A chat room doesn't have a game portion. A chat room doesn't let you buy/sell, craft, take orders, auction, group, quest, go on dungeon runs, pvp, random drive by heals, buffs, kills... so no, your wrong. There are many many many forms of interaction in an MMO, grouping is just one.
There are many games in pool, some have teams, some are solo, sometimes its just a bunch of friends hanging out.
And in some games there is a very limited form of interaction. But MMO's have many many forms of interaction.
Keep trying though.
edit - in any one specific game, the rules of the game may dictate how interaction occurs. That may be just taking turns, it may be something else. But MMO's have many different forms of interaction and all are equally viable.
You just contridicted yourself big time!
You guys were just telling us that you have no time for- "buy/sell, craft, take orders, auction, group, quest, go on dungeon runs, pvp, random drive by heals, buffs, kills.." , all those things require other players!
Remember that? You cant be bothered with other players, because you have no time, you need to do everything solo becaues dealing with other players is a hassle. Those are your words.
Now you claim that you are doing dungeon runs with other players? Taking orders and crafting with other players???
Make up your mind man, you keep changing your tune with each post, kinda wishy-washy and transparent.
A multiplayer game only means you have opportunity to interact - thats it, nothing more.
Really? People are still holding onto this belief? If you only have the opportunity to interact, that's called a chat room. A multiplayer game involves two or more players working against or with each other. Name me one multiplayer game that simply gives the opportunity for you to interact. And count MMO's out of that, they're the problem, not the example.
Let's try a list here:
Multiplayer Pool - "What do you mean it's my shot? I'm not here to play against you.".
Multiplayer Blood Bowl - "No, my team isn't moving, I just want to chat if thats okay?"
Multiplayer Call of Duty - "No! You can't shoot me, I don't want to fight today.".
The list goes on and on.
A chat room doesn't have a game portion. A chat room doesn't let you buy/sell, craft, take orders, auction, group, quest, go on dungeon runs, pvp, random drive by heals, buffs, kills... so no, your wrong. There are many many many forms of interaction in an MMO, grouping is just one.
There are many games in pool, some have teams, some are solo, sometimes its just a bunch of friends hanging out.
And in some games there is a very limited form of interaction. But MMO's have many many forms of interaction.
Keep trying though.
edit - in any one specific game, the rules of the game may dictate how interaction occurs. That may be just taking turns, it may be something else. But MMO's have many different forms of interaction and all are equally viable.
You just contridicted yourself big time!
You guys were just telling us that you have no time for- "buy/sell, craft, take orders, auction, group, quest, go on dungeon runs, pvp, random drive by heals, buffs, kills.." , all those things require other players!
Remember that? You cant be bothered with other players, because you have no time, you need to do everything solo becaues dealing with other players is a hassle. Those are your words.
Now you claim that you are doing dungeon runs with other players? Taking orders and crafting with other players???
Make up your mind man, you keep changing your tune with each post, kinda wishy-washy and transparent.
Um once again no. No one stated they don't have time for that. Some have stated they don't have to for other people's schedules, but many of those things can be done on the individuals schedule. So no your just wrong, again.
As people have stated repeatedly, they do like interaction with other players, however they want to pick and choose how that interaction occurs. And much of that does not require grouping.
You need to go back to grade school for reading comprehension.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
You guys were just telling us that you have no time for- "buy/sell, craft, take orders, auction, group, quest, go on dungeon runs, pvp, random drive by heals, buffs, kills.." , all those things require other players!
Remember that? You cant be bothered with other players, because you have no time, you need to do everything solo becaues dealing with other players is a hassle. Those are your words.
Now you claim that you are doing dungeon runs with other players? Taking orders and crafting with other players???
Make up your mind man, you keep changing your tune with each post, kinda wishy-washy and transparent.
With the whole mess that was SW:TOR I've come to a conclusion. A solo-centric game will never work, it'll be consumed just like a single player game - people will play it, do what needs to be done, then move on leaving the place a barren wasteland. Actually, that reminds me of that quote from The Matrix - "Humans are like a virus, a plague. You soloers are a cancer of this genre.". Okay, that last bit was modified, but anyway, it just reminded me of that quote. Moving on...!
What I was going to say is that, as much as they hate it, soloers need group content, not for themselves, but for the games whole ambience. People didn't need other people in SW:TOR so the chat channels were mostly silent, there was no need to help anyone nearby, trading was pointless because everyone could craft whatever they needed. It was a single player game dressed up as an MMO.
In MMO's with a larger focus on group play, the players are working together, the groupers do their group thing while chatting and making the chat channels come alive. Soloers can carry on with their own thing too, but because of the activity required between players they get a more community feel to the game, people will be gathered in areas chatting or preparing to move out to a dungeon, etc.
In a strictly solo game, everyone would be wandering back and fore doing their own thing, mostly ignoring each other. That community feel would be missing. It's like real life, people walk around doing their own thing, but you always see groups of people, be it a parent and children shopping or an old couple discussing the weather. If everyone was ignoring everyone else, could you imagine how weird it would be?
So that's how I see the case with the quoted post. He's confused because he needs group content, even if he doesn't want to play it, it's a requirement to make a thriving community. Without it, we end up with games like SW:TOR - empty, soulless, silent and decidedly lonely. A game that is considering F2P within 6 months of opening, despite having cost over $100 million to create.
You guys were just telling us that you have no time for- "buy/sell, craft, take orders, auction, group, quest, go on dungeon runs, pvp, random drive by heals, buffs, kills.." , all those things require other players!
Remember that? You cant be bothered with other players, because you have no time, you need to do everything solo becaues dealing with other players is a hassle. Those are your words.
Now you claim that you are doing dungeon runs with other players? Taking orders and crafting with other players???
Make up your mind man, you keep changing your tune with each post, kinda wishy-washy and transparent.
With the whole mess that was SW:TOR I've come to a conclusion. A solo-centric game will never work, it'll be consumed just like a single player game - people will play it, do what needs to be done, then move on leaving the place a barren wasteland. Actually, that reminds me of that quote from The Matrix - "Humans are like a virus, a plague. You soloers are a cancer of this genre.". Okay, that last bit was modified, but anyway, it just reminded me of that quote. Moving on...!
What I was going to say is that, as much as they hate it, soloers need group content, not for themselves, but for the games whole ambience. People didn't need other people in SW:TOR so the chat channels were mostly silent, there was no need to help anyone nearby, trading was pointless because everyone could craft whatever they needed. It was a single player game dressed up as an MMO.
In MMO's with a larger focus on group play, the players are working together, the groupers do their group thing while chatting and making the chat channels come alive. Soloers can carry on with their own thing too, but because of the activity required between players they get a more community feel to the game, people will be gathered in areas chatting or preparing to move out to a dungeon, etc.
In a strictly solo game, everyone would be wandering back and fore doing their own thing, mostly ignoring each other. That community feel would be missing. It's like real life, people walk around doing their own thing, but you always see groups of people, be it a parent and children shopping or an old couple discussing the weather. If everyone was ignoring everyone else, could you imagine how weird it would be?
So that's how I see the case with the quoted post. He's confused because he needs group content, even if he doesn't want to play it, it's a requirement to make a thriving community. Without it, we end up with games like SW:TOR - empty, soulless, silent and decidedly lonely. A game that is considering F2P within 6 months of opening, despite having cost over $100 million to create.
Now this I will agree with, in part. A game that is too solo-centric is IMO too limiting. Swtor, was too solocentric, it was also far too linear, had some pretty bug pvp, and had no real end-game. I"m not sure which one will have the greatest impact, however it's still too early to see if it did indeed fail, at last call it still had 1.3 million subs (yes I know that was still within the 6 month mark, but there are no other meaningfull measures to go by yet).
However a game that allows people to solo to end-game is not necessarily a solo-centric game. Again many could and did solo to end game in EQ.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The very idea that a topic like this is still raging on after so many years points to the very heart of the problem with this genre.
It is stagnated with closed minds which is why the games themselves havent evolved much...both players AND developers.
This entire issue could be resolved easily if a game maker would just stop being lazy and use the tools at hand. Scaled content would make a game solo, group AND raid friendly. It can be done, it can be done RIGHT and there have even been top developers that have states so at the game developers conference several times, with examples of HOW it can be done right.
No company, large or small should be making an MMO that targets ANY one group of players. Doesnt matter if its solo, group, pvp, pve, raid, elite...
Any game made to target a FEW players will limit their income AND the longevity of the game itself. A game that can scale to the player is the single best way to go.
player is soloing a mob, the player is level 5, the mob is level 5 and has the skills that matches up best to the lvl 5 class the player belongs to. If a mage, the mob gains a skill set to be challenge a mage.
If the lvl 5 mage is grouped with a lvl 5 cleric, the mob scales upward to best match a group of 2 with a healer.
if its a full group of level 5 players, the mob because elite and gains a skillset to match a group.
That is just one of many examples given by people like Raph Koster, a vet MMO maker(whom I dont even like BTW) that made UO, SWG and EQ2 as how to create an MMO that is for EVERY type of player and not only that, but a game that will remain 100% playable no matter what level you become...no more making 10% of a game for levels 1-20 that may NEVER be played by that character again...100% of the game remains a playable option for every character.
Stop thinking in terms of the past...as long as the players think in terms of the past, the game makers will never be forced to making games truly new...for the future.
You guys were just telling us that you have no time for- "buy/sell, craft, take orders, auction, group, quest, go on dungeon runs, pvp, random drive by heals, buffs, kills.." , all those things require other players!
Remember that? You cant be bothered with other players, because you have no time, you need to do everything solo becaues dealing with other players is a hassle. Those are your words.
Now you claim that you are doing dungeon runs with other players? Taking orders and crafting with other players???
Make up your mind man, you keep changing your tune with each post, kinda wishy-washy and transparent.
With the whole mess that was SW:TOR I've come to a conclusion. A solo-centric game will never work, it'll be consumed just like a single player game - people will play it, do what needs to be done, then move on leaving the place a barren wasteland. Actually, that reminds me of that quote from The Matrix - "Humans are like a virus, a plague. You soloers are a cancer of this genre.". Okay, that last bit was modified, but anyway, it just reminded me of that quote. Moving on...!
What I was going to say is that, as much as they hate it, soloers need group content, not for themselves, but for the games whole ambience. People didn't need other people in SW:TOR so the chat channels were mostly silent, there was no need to help anyone nearby, trading was pointless because everyone could craft whatever they needed. It was a single player game dressed up as an MMO.
Why does an MMO have to be absolute, why cant it be build to support multiple types of gamers? If you look at MMO history, the MMOs that emphasis group play from the beginning tend to not to be as successful as the MMO that trick you into believing you can solo then at endgame pretty much tell you, "oh ya, from now on to progress future you need to start grouping up with others". And that to me is the problem for most of the game, I am told you can solo, but then at level cap Ifor some odd reason I gotta start grouping up with people I don't know. I personally hate that.
One of the great things about gw2 for me is I don't really need to group up with people IF I don't want to; In other to get the best gear in the game. I can get the benefits of being in a group without having to deal with those people. IF I have 1 hour to play I can get in get out, don't have to worry about getting a group for anything.
Also, The problem with swtor IMO was it had multiple problems it being a solo friendly game was not THE issue it was just one of many that lead to its downfall. If it becomes f2p, watch as it blossoms into a very successful game.
However a game that allows people to solo to end-game is not necessarily a solo-centric game. Again many could and did solo to end game in EQ.
Before one expansion after the other started making content easier, there were only really two classes that could solo to end-game in original EQ. The Druid and the Necromancer. Some say a Bard could do it too, but my first character before even Kunark came out was a Bard and it was a nightmare trying to solo. It was doable, but you were much better off not bothering and going with a group. The time it took to down one Cyclops in the Karanas, for the amount of XP you got for doing it, was just.. yeah, go with the group every time.
Druids and Necromancers, on the other hand, could snare and dot, so could simply run around waiting for the creature to die before moving on to the next. I believe the Druid could do this with up to 4 at a time, quad kiting. Both could also self heal and the necromancer went one better and could gather mana back as well.
Other classes, no way. I played a Monk for most of my years in EverQuest and it died so fast solo that it was laughable. Talk about paper tank. It could really dish out the damage, but took hits hard. And this was a Monk with the best gear available, as I was in the top raiding guild on the server, so..
Anyway, EQ you could solo to end game, but your class choices were limited, as were your XP locations.
Comments
I believe that is the answer, and the more I play GW2, the more I believe it.
I like the idea in general, I hate gear-whoring, but half the reason these games force people to grind is to keep them paying month after month (or buying things through the shop). That's half their strategy for staying in business. I doubt you'd see any company toss away the grinding without replacing it with something else equally lucrative.
I'd also like to see it required that people craft their own gear. Otherwise you're going to see gold farmers turn into crafting farmers, making high-end armor and selling it for real money offline. I'd really like to see the games stop being about selling and trading and more about doing things for yourself.
Of course, as I said, that will never happen.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Do you actually believe this nonsense?
Where are the solo players trying to convince you that their way is the best way or the only way? This is simply a construct your mind made up to push blame for whatever failings you have regarding certain games you may have played onto those evil soloers instead of yourself.
Most soloers, myself included, don't care about your playstyle, we care about our playstyle and simply don't want to have to deal with yours (being forced to sit in a group with you and put up with all the nonsense and stupidity that make up modern mmo groups).
As for rewards, you can heap on all the 'rewards' you like its not going to make soloers suddenly become groupers. Its simply going to create what you state you despise, lots of complaining on the forums.
I think where you are going off the rails with your thinking is your mistaken belief that MMO's are created for groupers. The fact is MMO's are created for whatever audience the developers decide they're for and I doubt any developer is going to totally remove solo content to cater to your particular playstyle when there are plent of solo players who are willing to pay them for a subscription.
Think again.
I have mixed feelings about this...
I enjoy soloing...A LOT! You can be greedy and feel stronger after downing couple bosses(Depending on game Ofc)
BUT as a downside i also like to chat and be social, there are some players who i've chatted with that i feel like im going to miss, but can't / forget to firend them (As example WoW has mixed instances between servers...)
I wouldn't start to compare these two because i think i have balanced them myself. While i don't enjoy PvP (normally) i sometimes go Looking For Group. And the rest of the time i solo
Have you even read this thread? You dont see soloers trying to convince players that MMOs are for soloers?
You seriously need to rethink your position, and read the above posts, there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players.
Team players are there for the fun, while your there to collect pixels. Try again pal.
I think you really need to rethink your position and re-read the thread. Not a single person in this thread has ever stated that MMO's are only for soloers.
However they have stated that soloers can, do and should enjoy MMO's just like groupers. And developers are catering to them in many parts as well. As has been stated many many times before the multiplayer in MMO does not mean grouping, it does mean interaction, there are many many many other ways to interact with people other than grouping. Additionally there actually are people in this thread stating that MMO's should only be for groupers
there is a consenses that gear-whoring is just one of the things that seperates the soloer from teh team players. But once again it is not the soloers that are solely puersuing the gear, IMO it is mostly the groupers. Most soloers don't raid, it goes against what they like, or their reasons for soloing.
Solo players are the ones that are there for fun, just as much as group players. You are there just to collect your pixels.
I think you need to look back through the posts, this thread is full of soloers saying they want to be able to solo everything, they want to solo raids, they want the same gear as group content gives, they want this, that and the other. The pro-groupers just want the games to be different to a single player RPG, the soloers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own single player game with a chatroom.
But not a single person has stated that MMO's should be only for solo.
Wanting to be able to solo everything is a very different stance than saying that MMO's should be only for solo.
MMO's, even the most solo friendly ones are different from spg's. There is far far far more interaction with other players in an MMO, however that does not mean grouping.
Soloers aren't redisgning anything. Devs are catering to them, and soloing has been in MMO's since the very begining.
Pro-groupers want to take the MMO and redesign it into their own enforced friend and party system.
Yes they have said MMOs should be completly soloable, you obviously have not read any of this thread.
You guys want NO distinction from solo content and group content, meaning you dont belive groupers should get any rewards from grouping that you cant get solo. You also want to solo, any and all group content. which obvioulsy negates the group content.
Then you claim MMOs were solo to begin with? That is completly false, and I honestly cant believe you would think anyone is going to believe that. Seriously just wow!
No one has stated they should be ONLY soloable.
No. If you want to group go for it, you should get rewarded. If you want to solo go for it, you should get rewarded. Rewards should be based on success.
No it doesn't negate all group content, see above.
There SHOULD be alternative pathways for both. People will choose the one they have more fun with.
I never said MMO's were ONLY solo, I said you could solo in all MMO"s. Yes you could solo in UO, yes you could solo to cap in EQ with almost half the classes.
Seriously just wow!
You're obviously not understanding human nature, where we all go the path of least resistance, which has been stated many times in this thread. If everything is soloable then people will solo, as simple as that, it'll remove any need for groups because there wouldn't BE a need for groups if people can do it all themselves. To incorporate both playstyles while making them both viable I think is simply an impossible task. A developer needs to choose one or the other.
Pro-groupers just want to keep a multiplayer game as a multiplayer game. If you can solo everything in a multiplayer game then that game has failed in its genre. It's no better than a single player game with a chat room.
Anyone find it wierd how fantasy fiction, on which most MMO's are based, usually have a single hero or small group of hero's and the fictional content is usually a single soloable (by the hero) or small groupable (by the small group) villian but in MMO's the expectation by a lot of people is in game villians must only be destroyable with large numbers of people.
Pretty bizarre.
@Usual Suspect, you are having a hard time understanding because your definition of multiplayer in MMO's is seriously flawed.
You can do heaps of things solo in the real world, does that make everything you do in the real world by yourself single player too? If I go speeding down the road in my car, can I discount everyone else on the road because I'm in the car by myself?.
Your assertion that doing something solo in a game world in which many other players are also doing things in the same game world, somehow makes whatever they are doing inconsequtial to other players is total nonsense.
Except as has also been stated many time in this threaed, it is not true. So you are not understanding human nature. Yes many will do the path of least resistance, however many will also do what they enjoy the mostm and that is the key, people will end up playing the game they enjoy most and playing the style they enjoy most. If people like grouping then they will group. WoW has shown that. They made grouping (dungeons) just as easy and rewarding as soloing (quests) and many many many, some even say the majorty are now grouping up more than soloing.
Also who says soloing is easier. There is no reason whatsoever that soloing needs to be easier than grouping. Actually if the soloer takes the same mobs as the group, than soloing is harder. However it can be made even more difficult via simple puzzles or mini games, and I'm sure many other people can think of many other ways.
No. A developer doesn't have to choice on or the other. They can simply choose activites that are solo or group. Again, even the dreaded wow has found a solution that offers a great deal of soloing shoulder you, or a great deal of grouping should you wish.
A multiplayer game only means you have opportunity to interact - thats it, nothing more.
Really? People are still holding onto this belief? If you only have the opportunity to interact, that's called a chat room. A multiplayer game involves two or more players working against or with each other. Name me one multiplayer game that simply gives the opportunity for you to interact. And count MMO's out of that, they're the problem, not the example.
Let's try a list here:
Multiplayer Pool - "What do you mean it's my shot? I'm not here to play against you.".
Multiplayer Blood Bowl - "No, my team isn't moving, I just want to chat if thats okay?"
Multiplayer Call of Duty - "No! You can't shoot me, I don't want to fight today.".
The list goes on and on.
A chat room doesn't have a game portion. A chat room doesn't let you buy/sell, craft, take orders, auction, group, quest, go on dungeon runs, pvp, random drive by heals, buffs, kills... so no, your wrong. There are many many many forms of interaction in an MMO, grouping is just one.
There are many games in pool, some have teams, some are solo, sometimes its just a bunch of friends hanging out.
And in some games there is a very limited form of interaction. But MMO's have many many forms of interaction.
Keep trying though.
edit - in any one specific game, the rules of the game may dictate how interaction occurs. That may be just taking turns, it may be something else. But MMO's have many different forms of interaction and all are equally viable.
The games you listed are all pure adversarial games (you directly compete against another person).
Try
Sailing, Rally Racing, Mountain Climbing, Picking up girls in bars... there are tons of things we do, were we don't directly interact but we are in competition.
And you guys claim we are trying to tell you soloers how to play MMOs...HAHA!
Look at you, first you tell usualsuspect his definition of MMO is wrong, when it isnt, because there isnt one definition for all people.
Then you equate a MMO to a movie???? So game devs should redesign thier MMOs after movies, are you serious???
Then you try and equate real life with an MMO, by driving a car down the road? Sorry but your making one strawman after another.
How about you stick to the topic, can you do that?
You just contridicted yourself big time!
You guys were just telling us that you have no time for- "buy/sell, craft, take orders, auction, group, quest, go on dungeon runs, pvp, random drive by heals, buffs, kills.." , all those things require other players!
Remember that? You cant be bothered with other players, because you have no time, you need to do everything solo becaues dealing with other players is a hassle. Those are your words.
Now you claim that you are doing dungeon runs with other players? Taking orders and crafting with other players???
Make up your mind man, you keep changing your tune with each post, kinda wishy-washy and transparent.
Um once again no. No one stated they don't have time for that. Some have stated they don't have to for other people's schedules, but many of those things can be done on the individuals schedule. So no your just wrong, again.
As people have stated repeatedly, they do like interaction with other players, however they want to pick and choose how that interaction occurs. And much of that does not require grouping.
You need to go back to grade school for reading comprehension.
With the whole mess that was SW:TOR I've come to a conclusion. A solo-centric game will never work, it'll be consumed just like a single player game - people will play it, do what needs to be done, then move on leaving the place a barren wasteland. Actually, that reminds me of that quote from The Matrix - "Humans are like a virus, a plague. You soloers are a cancer of this genre.". Okay, that last bit was modified, but anyway, it just reminded me of that quote. Moving on...!
What I was going to say is that, as much as they hate it, soloers need group content, not for themselves, but for the games whole ambience. People didn't need other people in SW:TOR so the chat channels were mostly silent, there was no need to help anyone nearby, trading was pointless because everyone could craft whatever they needed. It was a single player game dressed up as an MMO.
In MMO's with a larger focus on group play, the players are working together, the groupers do their group thing while chatting and making the chat channels come alive. Soloers can carry on with their own thing too, but because of the activity required between players they get a more community feel to the game, people will be gathered in areas chatting or preparing to move out to a dungeon, etc.
In a strictly solo game, everyone would be wandering back and fore doing their own thing, mostly ignoring each other. That community feel would be missing. It's like real life, people walk around doing their own thing, but you always see groups of people, be it a parent and children shopping or an old couple discussing the weather. If everyone was ignoring everyone else, could you imagine how weird it would be?
So that's how I see the case with the quoted post. He's confused because he needs group content, even if he doesn't want to play it, it's a requirement to make a thriving community. Without it, we end up with games like SW:TOR - empty, soulless, silent and decidedly lonely. A game that is considering F2P within 6 months of opening, despite having cost over $100 million to create.
Now this I will agree with, in part. A game that is too solo-centric is IMO too limiting. Swtor, was too solocentric, it was also far too linear, had some pretty bug pvp, and had no real end-game. I"m not sure which one will have the greatest impact, however it's still too early to see if it did indeed fail, at last call it still had 1.3 million subs (yes I know that was still within the 6 month mark, but there are no other meaningfull measures to go by yet).
However a game that allows people to solo to end-game is not necessarily a solo-centric game. Again many could and did solo to end game in EQ.
The very idea that a topic like this is still raging on after so many years points to the very heart of the problem with this genre.
It is stagnated with closed minds which is why the games themselves havent evolved much...both players AND developers.
This entire issue could be resolved easily if a game maker would just stop being lazy and use the tools at hand. Scaled content would make a game solo, group AND raid friendly. It can be done, it can be done RIGHT and there have even been top developers that have states so at the game developers conference several times, with examples of HOW it can be done right.
No company, large or small should be making an MMO that targets ANY one group of players. Doesnt matter if its solo, group, pvp, pve, raid, elite...
Any game made to target a FEW players will limit their income AND the longevity of the game itself. A game that can scale to the player is the single best way to go.
player is soloing a mob, the player is level 5, the mob is level 5 and has the skills that matches up best to the lvl 5 class the player belongs to. If a mage, the mob gains a skill set to be challenge a mage.
If the lvl 5 mage is grouped with a lvl 5 cleric, the mob scales upward to best match a group of 2 with a healer.
if its a full group of level 5 players, the mob because elite and gains a skillset to match a group.
That is just one of many examples given by people like Raph Koster, a vet MMO maker(whom I dont even like BTW) that made UO, SWG and EQ2 as how to create an MMO that is for EVERY type of player and not only that, but a game that will remain 100% playable no matter what level you become...no more making 10% of a game for levels 1-20 that may NEVER be played by that character again...100% of the game remains a playable option for every character.
Stop thinking in terms of the past...as long as the players think in terms of the past, the game makers will never be forced to making games truly new...for the future.
Why does an MMO have to be absolute, why cant it be build to support multiple types of gamers? If you look at MMO history, the MMOs that emphasis group play from the beginning tend to not to be as successful as the MMO that trick you into believing you can solo then at endgame pretty much tell you, "oh ya, from now on to progress future you need to start grouping up with others". And that to me is the problem for most of the game, I am told you can solo, but then at level cap Ifor some odd reason I gotta start grouping up with people I don't know. I personally hate that.
One of the great things about gw2 for me is I don't really need to group up with people IF I don't want to; In other to get the best gear in the game. I can get the benefits of being in a group without having to deal with those people. IF I have 1 hour to play I can get in get out, don't have to worry about getting a group for anything.
Also, The problem with swtor IMO was it had multiple problems it being a solo friendly game was not THE issue it was just one of many that lead to its downfall. If it becomes f2p, watch as it blossoms into a very successful game.
Before one expansion after the other started making content easier, there were only really two classes that could solo to end-game in original EQ. The Druid and the Necromancer. Some say a Bard could do it too, but my first character before even Kunark came out was a Bard and it was a nightmare trying to solo. It was doable, but you were much better off not bothering and going with a group. The time it took to down one Cyclops in the Karanas, for the amount of XP you got for doing it, was just.. yeah, go with the group every time.
Druids and Necromancers, on the other hand, could snare and dot, so could simply run around waiting for the creature to die before moving on to the next. I believe the Druid could do this with up to 4 at a time, quad kiting. Both could also self heal and the necromancer went one better and could gather mana back as well.
Other classes, no way. I played a Monk for most of my years in EverQuest and it died so fast solo that it was laughable. Talk about paper tank. It could really dish out the damage, but took hits hard. And this was a Monk with the best gear available, as I was in the top raiding guild on the server, so..
Anyway, EQ you could solo to end game, but your class choices were limited, as were your XP locations.