When you die, you die permanently, how is it NOT permadeath? whether you think the downfalls of the permadeath matter is irrelevent, perma death = permanent death, which is what it has.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
The only way I can see someone not really understanding that it is permadeath is that if they are constantly being killed within the first 20-30 mins, they may find some ammo or food, but you spawn with that anyway, so if you are just playing for 20-30mins and then dying, it will seem like a weird crap fps because you never progress your character.
Having said that if you are always dying that fast you are playing the game wrong.
Well its a FPS. So no there's no character stats or anything like that.
For this, the items are the character development and many as far as I know are not easy to get. A good rifle or even a flashlight can be somewhat priceless at times. Loosing all your stuff is a big deal as it can probably take hours to replace it. I qualify that as perma death even though you may not.
Because if you die you start over at the beginning with absolutely nothing. What happens in old Nintendo games when you run out of lives? Game over and you start over at the beginning. Well here there is only one life. You loose it? You start over with nothing at the beginning. Perma death.
So when you die the only thing you lose are items?
Isn't that the definition of a FULL LOOT system?
How would that be any diffierent then if DF had you resurrect in a completely random location in the world when you died? You lost the exact same thing in both games, items. But because one game doesn't make you take a couple of seconds to remake a character one is permadeath and the other isn't? I disagree, without any form of CHARACTER development, and character development isn't item collection, then the only thing you can lose are items and therefore it's only full loot.
Let me put it another way.
I make a character, manage to collect a bunch of stuff, find some place out of the way and hide that stuff, then I die. I remake the exact same character, go to were I hid a bunch of stuff to resuply myself. The is no significant difference between what I just described and Mortal Online.
Again, this isn't a permadeath sucks thread. It's a, there is no permadeath in a game that has no character development thread. You're not attached to the character, you're attached to the items you collect. It's the exact same thing in MO or DF, and in fact MO is harsher, because you can actually lose skills if you PK and then die.
Let me again put it another way. If removing the need to create a new character doesn't change the fundimental penalty of death, then how is it permadeath? If the modder made you spawn in a new plaace in the world every time you died, it wouldn't change anything that's already happening in the game.
If removing the need to make a new character doesn't actually alter the game in any way, I don't think it's really fair to call it permadeath. It's attaching more significance to the mechanic then is deserving.
Or let me try it another way. In a permadeath system, the threat of losing the character is supposed to be the driving force behind death. What are you trying not to lose in DayZ?
No that is not a full loot RPG...
In all the games you listed as an example the only way you lose it all is if your retarded and carry your bank on you, and even then 90% of people wont loot you dry, just what they need/deem valuable and youll be able to return to your body and reclaim what is left.
Also there are banks
And there are ways for you to crat usefull items, so you can bank the mats you find and create spare items for when you do lose everything on you.
From what im gathering here, items are not only hard to find and random, but you have no way to recreate needed good or store goods you may not be using.
This is what seperates a FPS with a sandbox mmorpg...if this were a sandbox mmorpg, id be able to store my stuff and go out as a guy with just a hand gun and nothing else, and farm stuff, drop off my load, then gear up and go pvp hunting..doesnt seem like you have a choice in this game its all or nothing...which im not doubting is fun, just shares little to nothing with a sandbox mmorpg.
not having quests =/= sandbox
no character progression =/= rpg
this is a mmoaction game or mmofps whatever you want to lable it, but it shares nothing with an rpg
In DayZ or other mods, you can store items in tents or vehicles but everyone can take the loot if it is unguarded. By the way some of the DayZ servers are marked with [Roleplaying], its a lot about players aswell.
Dunno if anyone mentioned it yet,but it's totally possible to feed a group one's starter ammo in order to give them a better chance at survival. If it was a *true* start-over (aka permadeath), then you wouldn't have a pistol and ammo to muck with. You can actually start over with more than you had once you hit a brick wall over time.
IMO, the game needs melee weapons and starting off with only a knife.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Dunno if anyone mentioned it yet,but it's totally possible to feed a group one's starter ammo in order to give them a better chance at survival. If it was a *true* start-over (aka permadeath), then you wouldn't have a pistol and ammo to muck with. You can actually start over with more than you had once you hit a brick wall over time.
IMO, the game needs melee weapons and starting off with only a knife.
Wouldn't that mean that pretty much any game, with social interactions or possibility to trade with other players couldn't be counted as permadeath-game? You have a group of people you play with, that will share their findings with you. Of course you could hide your items somewhere, but just simply finding the location after respawn would be a huge task and require some survival skills.
Complitely agree with the melee weapons, being able to make a silent kill while zombies are around would be a matter of life and death. That way you could make ammo even harder to find, thus making it even more exciting. And naturally, if you mess it up, and alert the Z's around you...you're pretty much f***ed. BWAAHAHAAA! Now I'm imagining zombies trying to chew your helmet (or what ever that thing is your avatar is wearing), while you swing your hunting knife at them, with low results.
What a nutjob of a community we are. Not only can we not agree on the basic definitions of the two main branches of our beloved genre, but we can't even agree on what permadeath really means.
The only fragment of your character that survives death in DayZ is your name and whether you are male or female. Is it really necessary to recreate your character's name and sex every time you die to warrant the title of permadeath?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
What I hope comes out of this game, is that MMO developers look at how wildly successful this relatively hardcore game is, and starting putting some money towards this kind of game.
Indeed. But, with people who currently run large MMO companies being who they are, this just really means them ripping off the idea as is and developing every possible way to monetize every inch of it.
# of zombies kills, # of headshots. # of players killed etc.
Pretty soon those are going to be publically posted on the website I hope. So everyone can see the top survivors.
THAT'S what I'm looking for!
This is exactly what I was getting at. It may be superficial stats, but it's something that was tracked on that character other then items.
No one pointed out that there were stats connected to the characer itself. That would mean permadeath.
Not sure why no one got what I was getting at. If you have nothing that is associated with your character, other then items you find, then it's only full looting. If you have some form of character development, stats that associated with that character that are gone when you die, it's permadeath. All I saw people talk about was that you die, lose all of you items, make another guy who will probably look just like the last one and have the same name, and then reenter the server at a random location. That is the EXACT same thing that happens in games like darkfall and mortal online, minus the need to remake a character.
No one ever mentioned the stats being tracked by character and not player.
# of zombies kills, # of headshots. # of players killed etc.
Pretty soon those are going to be publically posted on the website I hope. So everyone can see the top survivors.
No one ever mentioned the stats being tracked by character and not player.
Yea, that's going to be fun, and yet another reason to be careful. But imho, stats are for games like BF3 and the likes, in my clan we keep track of each other and give props to the guys who are exceptional. But yea, I suppose it's a good argument for perma.
So, losing all the crap you've managed to scrouge up over a few days of horror and panic, and spawning with all of it gone...as if you were "level 1" again, isn't permanent? K
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
its pissed me off for a while now how everyone keeps calling it "permadeath"
its just full loot pvp, its a standard feature of a sandbox mmo. pvp is meaningless without it.
real permadeath is like haven & hearth and the upcoming salem.
Stop.. Just stop. You die, lose everything, stats gone, guildmates laughing, throw mouse, look for and find mouse, respawn with close to nothing, spend a half hour to an hour trying to find your friends. Permafuckingdeath. Period.
its pissed me off for a while now how everyone keeps calling it "permadeath"
its just full loot pvp, its a standard feature of a sandbox mmo. pvp is meaningless without it.
real permadeath is like haven & hearth and the upcoming salem.
It's also full loot PvE. Get killed by a zombie or another player, starve to death, die of dehydration or falling off a building, you lose everything. If you die away from the bean coast you can't even do the corpse-run thing. Once Rocket's got the invisible progression thing he's been pondering into the game, the permadeath thing will be exactly that.
Comments
When you die, you die permanently, how is it NOT permadeath? whether you think the downfalls of the permadeath matter is irrelevent, perma death = permanent death, which is what it has.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
The only way I can see someone not really understanding that it is permadeath is that if they are constantly being killed within the first 20-30 mins, they may find some ammo or food, but you spawn with that anyway, so if you are just playing for 20-30mins and then dying, it will seem like a weird crap fps because you never progress your character.
Having said that if you are always dying that fast you are playing the game wrong.
No that is not a full loot RPG...
In all the games you listed as an example the only way you lose it all is if your retarded and carry your bank on you, and even then 90% of people wont loot you dry, just what they need/deem valuable and youll be able to return to your body and reclaim what is left.
Also there are banks
And there are ways for you to crat usefull items, so you can bank the mats you find and create spare items for when you do lose everything on you.
From what im gathering here, items are not only hard to find and random, but you have no way to recreate needed good or store goods you may not be using.
This is what seperates a FPS with a sandbox mmorpg...if this were a sandbox mmorpg, id be able to store my stuff and go out as a guy with just a hand gun and nothing else, and farm stuff, drop off my load, then gear up and go pvp hunting..doesnt seem like you have a choice in this game its all or nothing...which im not doubting is fun, just shares little to nothing with a sandbox mmorpg.
not having quests =/= sandbox
no character progression =/= rpg
this is a mmoaction game or mmofps whatever you want to lable it, but it shares nothing with an rpg
In DayZ or other mods, you can store items in tents or vehicles but everyone can take the loot if it is unguarded. By the way some of the DayZ servers are marked with [Roleplaying], its a lot about players aswell.
God I love this game... Yea, got nothing to add.
Dunno if anyone mentioned it yet,but it's totally possible to feed a group one's starter ammo in order to give them a better chance at survival. If it was a *true* start-over (aka permadeath), then you wouldn't have a pistol and ammo to muck with. You can actually start over with more than you had once you hit a brick wall over time.
IMO, the game needs melee weapons and starting off with only a knife.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Wouldn't that mean that pretty much any game, with social interactions or possibility to trade with other players couldn't be counted as permadeath-game? You have a group of people you play with, that will share their findings with you. Of course you could hide your items somewhere, but just simply finding the location after respawn would be a huge task and require some survival skills.
Complitely agree with the melee weapons, being able to make a silent kill while zombies are around would be a matter of life and death. That way you could make ammo even harder to find, thus making it even more exciting. And naturally, if you mess it up, and alert the Z's around you...you're pretty much f***ed. BWAAHAHAAA! Now I'm imagining zombies trying to chew your helmet (or what ever that thing is your avatar is wearing), while you swing your hunting knife at them, with low results.
Not tonight dear...I have a haddock!
What a nutjob of a community we are. Not only can we not agree on the basic definitions of the two main branches of our beloved genre, but we can't even agree on what permadeath really means.
The only fragment of your character that survives death in DayZ is your name and whether you are male or female. Is it really necessary to recreate your character's name and sex every time you die to warrant the title of permadeath?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Indeed. But, with people who currently run large MMO companies being who they are, this just really means them ripping off the idea as is and developing every possible way to monetize every inch of it.
THAT'S what I'm looking for!
This is exactly what I was getting at. It may be superficial stats, but it's something that was tracked on that character other then items.
No one pointed out that there were stats connected to the characer itself. That would mean permadeath.
Not sure why no one got what I was getting at. If you have nothing that is associated with your character, other then items you find, then it's only full looting. If you have some form of character development, stats that associated with that character that are gone when you die, it's permadeath. All I saw people talk about was that you die, lose all of you items, make another guy who will probably look just like the last one and have the same name, and then reenter the server at a random location. That is the EXACT same thing that happens in games like darkfall and mortal online, minus the need to remake a character.
No one ever mentioned the stats being tracked by character and not player.
Yea, that's going to be fun, and yet another reason to be careful. But imho, stats are for games like BF3 and the likes, in my clan we keep track of each other and give props to the guys who are exceptional. But yea, I suppose it's a good argument for perma.
So, losing all the crap you've managed to scrouge up over a few days of horror and panic, and spawning with all of it gone...as if you were "level 1" again, isn't permanent? K
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
its pissed me off for a while now how everyone keeps calling it "permadeath"
its just full loot pvp, its a standard feature of a sandbox mmo. pvp is meaningless without it.
real permadeath is like haven & hearth and the upcoming salem.
My blog:
Stop.. Just stop. You die, lose everything, stats gone, guildmates laughing, throw mouse, look for and find mouse, respawn with close to nothing, spend a half hour to an hour trying to find your friends. Permafuckingdeath. Period.
It's also full loot PvE. Get killed by a zombie or another player, starve to death, die of dehydration or falling off a building, you lose everything. If you die away from the bean coast you can't even do the corpse-run thing. Once Rocket's got the invisible progression thing he's been pondering into the game, the permadeath thing will be exactly that.