Their arrogant and their fan boy killed the game. Ever notice nowadays bioware game are not what it used to be? And fan boy who defend bioware like it-could-do-no-wrong doesn't help either. A few bioware fan boy roaming this forum last year seem to have dissapeared along with tortanic, may they rest in peace.
You're telling me. I don't know how Bioware got the notion in their head that their expertise is "voice driven story." I mean, the games that put Bioware on the map, made them what they are today, had very little voicework at all. And they were probably as much gameplay, character building, and RPG customization as they were story...if not more.
Bioware kind of reminds me of Square at this point. Started out making great games that focus on gameplay and character building...but eventually wound up believing that they are a "cinematics" company.
yeah, but do you know what is the saddest part? that is what most of the players seems to want.
do you know what 3 most common "why i will not play TSW" comments are?
"combat is boring and not action enough"
"graphics sucks"
"animation sucks"
(not to mention recent thread "quest are too hard and needs too much thinking")
If you are correct, then the single point of failure was project management and oversight. BW allowing the project scope-creep to run unchecked and EA for not seeing the danger signs far earlier.
BW most likely had the best intentions at heart, and tried to build an awesome game. But in the real world, there's always a trade-off between what you would like to deliver, as opposed to what you can deliver. And when it gets to the point where it becomes apparent that developing the dream game is going to take 10 years and half a billion dollars, something has to give. The inherent risks are too high.
So all the amazing innovative features (which were still not completed in 2010) were simply canned and the the word from EA was "Wrap it up and get it out the door. Now !"
Ironically, perhaps BW did listen to too many player suggestions, and ended up trying to deliver too much, which ultimately led to delivering very little.
Some of the things people are saying "went wrong" are actually plusses in the eyes of others so one person's trash is another person's treasure.
Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it went wrong. Some fo the things thrown around here are "story, instances, wow clone, etc".
These things are actually liked and wanted by some. And since the game is exactly what they said it would be and there are people who like these things, let's really look at the actual issues.
1, not enough to do at level cap. And since it is a theme park based on story it's not clear on what one should be doing. Suddenly it goes from story driven mmo to an mmo that requires instance grinding.
2, no promotion of community on the planets. Because there is only one place to "be" which is the fleet, each planet is a quest hub and nothing more. people want to get in and out of those places, no reason to linger and no reason to be there and help people who just arrived. And they are huge quest hubs so it's easy for them to remain ghost towns.
3, it being more story based without enough player created/driven activity means that people will buy it, play through a character or two and then be done.
4, not everyone going to SWToR was a pvp'er or wanted to pvp so I will say that the pvp community who wanted star wars pvp thought too much of the Illum planet and Bioware wasn't able to deliver a satisfying experience.
That's pretty much it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Really, the problem is it took them 10 years to create this mmo and it's condition is like a 2006 mmo....not a mmo that looks like its 2011-2012. Anything that wants to try to be a WoW clone, will be buried . Bioware couldv'e studied other mmos more and what people like before making this mmo because it looks like its going downhill. 8 active servers doing content . They may be forced to add in microtransactions as well, which that may reduce the game down to one server which will be the most depressing thing ever.
Looking at: The Repopulation Preordering: None Playing: Random Games
BW most likely had the best intentions at heart, and tried to build an awesome game. But in the real world, there's always a trade-off between what you would like to deliver, as opposed to what you can deliver. And when it gets to the point where it becomes apparent that developing the dream game is going to take 10 years and half a billion dollars, something has to give. The inherent risks are too high.
That recap was well worth the read (assuming it's true of course). I find it hard to believe that Bioware could fail at the development or that EA was so asleep at the switch but there you go.
I wish those in game the best of luck and hope it ultimately fulfills its promise.
You really should have called this thread "Having followed this game for eight years, here's my summary of WHY things went wrong"
I enjoyed it though. Good read. To bad most of the people here won't bother to read it before they throw out their opinions on what is wrong with the game. Shame since that is really not what this thread is about.
Way too wordy. Didn't read. Everyone knows what went wrong wtih TOR and can make a short list that gets all of the major reasons.
Funny. This site is all about reading. People come here to "read" what other people have to say. It makes me laugh at the sheer stupidity of tl;dr on a site that is all about reading.
A good sum up, OP. It sounds accurate. But let me add one thing: hubris. The sheer arrogance not to see ANY advise and listen to ANY sort of critique, and totally denying to learn from any previous MMO.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
What was needed - Bioware developed, Starwars lore driven sandbox with a decent engine.
What we got - WoW with Starwars branding and EQ2's engine.
How was Bioware of all people going to make a sandbox? Forget MMOs they dont have any experience at all with that type of game. The instant Bioware was taged to make the game, it was deemed that it was not going to be a sandbox.
What was needed - Bioware developed, Starwars lore driven sandbox with a decent engine.
What we got - WoW with Starwars branding and EQ2's engine.
How was Bioware of all people going to make a sandbox? Forget MMOs they dont have any experience at all with that type of game. The instant Bioware was taged to make the game, it was deemed that it was not going to be a sandbox.
Bioware never made an MMO prior to TOR either. And plenty of us were expecting TOR to be far more open and have some sandbox elements. It fails at both.
Was in three (did only 2 Beta's though due to work) Beta's, during Beta there was on the official forums a suggestion from the Beta testers about a recognition or Founders Title, we were told in short to go pound sand.
EA/Bioware later releases a subscription plan which includes such a title.
2) Game released without basic 2012 MMO items.
Example:
Unmovable UI
No Guild Banks
No Group Finder
3) Lying to consumers
Example:
High Res graphics mode that we (I) played in beta.
Having followed this game for eight years, here's my summary of what went wrong
I can tell you the first thing that went wrong just off the thread title.....
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
A good sum up, OP. It sounds accurate. But let me add one thing: hubris. The sheer arrogance not to see ANY advise and listen to ANY sort of critique, and totally denying to learn from any previous MMO.
I am not sure hubris was the problem, certainly not at the beginning. It's my belief that everyone involved - Bioware, LA and EA - all wanted to make a *great* game and, to do that, each one of these three players made a conscious decision to do things differently from the way they had done things in the past.
Bioware decided that it would commit to doing a largescale MMORPG though it did not have the technical track-record or the project management experience to handle such an undertaking;
LA decided it would not impose a cast-iron timetable on its licence partner [and, a new point, I suspect LA chose not to audit the game's content for 'EU lore' continuity which it usually does with all its licence partners - which is why SWTOR tier armors, the design of which Bioware eventually had to farm out to 3rd party graphics agencies, some in India, look so strange, fantasy-type and non-SW]
EA decided not to micromanage Bioware - the mistake it made with another in-house studio brand, Mythic - but this effectively meanty that there were no financial or management checks in place to ensure good development discipline.
The arrogance, that you saw - and that we all saw - came in the game's marketing. I believe it was the result of desperation.I speculate that by the beginning of 2011, it was obvious to EA that the game was not going to be a huge long-term success - I mean, after all, along with all the accountants and marketing men and other bullshit artists in the company, there are also plenty of people who play and love. There was no chance that the years and hundreds of millions invested was going to come from mass subscription in the long-term. The only hope of clawing back the investment was from initial sales during a very brief launch window..
That's why the launch date (20th December) was chosen. It was in the middle of the Christmas sales rush - but not so distant from the holiday that word of mouth about the game would get around until the holiday was over. And that's why prices for the game was amped up to price-gouging levels.
That's also why we were subject to such a ridiculous and hysterical marketing campaign in 2011 - arrogant, dismissive and, in the case of buying off game reviewers with both direct and indirect payments, downright dishonest. Everythingt was geared to making gigantic box sales on 20th December and a few weeks after. EA's markeitng team didn't care if it offended subscribers by lying to them and dismissing their views; after all, as DA 2 and ME 3 showed, games players can never truly be 'burned', they will always come back and buy the next game.
Some of the things people are saying "went wrong" are actually plusses in the eyes of others so one person's trash is another person's treasure.
Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it went wrong. Some fo the things thrown around here are "story, instances, wow clone, etc".
These things are actually liked and wanted by some. And since the game is exactly what they said it would be and there are people who like these things, let's really look at the actual issues.
1, not enough to do at level cap. And since it is a theme park based on story it's not clear on what one should be doing. Suddenly it goes from story driven mmo to an mmo that requires instance grinding.
2, no promotion of community on the planets. Because there is only one place to "be" which is the fleet, each planet is a quest hub and nothing more. people want to get in and out of those places, no reason to linger and no reason to be there and help people who just arrived. And they are huge quest hubs so it's easy for them to remain ghost towns.
3, it being more story based without enough player created/driven activity means that people will buy it, play through a character or two and then be done.
4, not everyone going to SWToR was a pvp'er or wanted to pvp so I will say that the pvp community who wanted star wars pvp thought too much of the Illum planet and Bioware wasn't able to deliver a satisfying experience.
That's pretty much it.
I think the term SOME players wanted those features is accurate. The problem is TOR agreed with Some people and ignored the other 90% who did not want NGE 2.0 which is all TOR is. As to point 4 pvp is so bad anyway me and most other pvpers wouldnt touch TOR with a ten foot pole anyway. To point 1, they built the game around end game raiding and running through content to do it, however even that, the selling point to end game raiders was botched. Story was meaningless because content was badly done, horribly done.
In the years of forum discussions on the game people were exited until they started talking about "star wars is about loot" and hyping up interviews with large raiding guilds like Ensidia. If you want to build a game for purely raid progression thats fine, but its oldschool now and even a pretty good WOWesque style game like RIFT. Which to date is still the best modern version of EQ and WOW, only has a population of 200k or so, about the same as EQ2.
I think the term SOME players wanted those features is accurate. The problem is TOR agreed with Some people and ignored the other 90% who did not want NGE 2.0 which is all TOR is.
Sorry, but it's impossible to take the rest of what you say seriously with such a ridiculous statement.
I swear Bioware should write a book about the life of SWTOR, they would make 100 million just off that.
Talking about expertise regarding games development. SWTOR felt like KOTOR but with other players running around doing the same missions. I was thinking at the time, 'these people don't know MMO's.'
For me the game fell between MMO and Single Player and ended up being a poor cousin for both genres, therefore people who want immersive single player, pick up Skyrim, those that want immersive MMO go back to whatever they were playing.
The nail in the coffin for me is the complete lack of landscape and exploration. Within 2 days I felt like a rabbit caught in a trap and I wanted to bite my own foot off.
I just thought about the original Star Wars and the wide sweeping shots of desert and sprawling cities. I wanted to get in a hover craft and speed off looking for resources. Instead I felt like a pork chop being pushed through a grinder.
SWTOR my biggest gaming dissapointment ever? Need to think, but its definitely in the top 3.
Comments
yeah, but do you know what is the saddest part? that is what most of the players seems to want.
do you know what 3 most common "why i will not play TSW" comments are?
"combat is boring and not action enough"
"graphics sucks"
"animation sucks"
(not to mention recent thread "quest are too hard and needs too much thinking")
Excellent analysis OP.
If you are correct, then the single point of failure was project management and oversight. BW allowing the project scope-creep to run unchecked and EA for not seeing the danger signs far earlier.
BW most likely had the best intentions at heart, and tried to build an awesome game. But in the real world, there's always a trade-off between what you would like to deliver, as opposed to what you can deliver. And when it gets to the point where it becomes apparent that developing the dream game is going to take 10 years and half a billion dollars, something has to give. The inherent risks are too high.
So all the amazing innovative features (which were still not completed in 2010) were simply canned and the the word from EA was "Wrap it up and get it out the door. Now !"
Ironically, perhaps BW did listen to too many player suggestions, and ended up trying to deliver too much, which ultimately led to delivering very little.
The problem with SWToR is very simple.
Some of the things people are saying "went wrong" are actually plusses in the eyes of others so one person's trash is another person's treasure.
Just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it went wrong. Some fo the things thrown around here are "story, instances, wow clone, etc".
These things are actually liked and wanted by some. And since the game is exactly what they said it would be and there are people who like these things, let's really look at the actual issues.
1, not enough to do at level cap. And since it is a theme park based on story it's not clear on what one should be doing. Suddenly it goes from story driven mmo to an mmo that requires instance grinding.
2, no promotion of community on the planets. Because there is only one place to "be" which is the fleet, each planet is a quest hub and nothing more. people want to get in and out of those places, no reason to linger and no reason to be there and help people who just arrived. And they are huge quest hubs so it's easy for them to remain ghost towns.
3, it being more story based without enough player created/driven activity means that people will buy it, play through a character or two and then be done.
4, not everyone going to SWToR was a pvp'er or wanted to pvp so I will say that the pvp community who wanted star wars pvp thought too much of the Illum planet and Bioware wasn't able to deliver a satisfying experience.
That's pretty much it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Really, the problem is it took them 10 years to create this mmo and it's condition is like a 2006 mmo....not a mmo that looks like its 2011-2012. Anything that wants to try to be a WoW clone, will be buried
. Bioware couldv'e studied other mmos more and what people like before making this mmo because it looks like its going downhill. 8 active servers doing content 
. They may be forced to add in microtransactions as well, which that may reduce the game down to one server which will be the most depressing thing ever.
Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games
sounds similar to the shipwreck of Vanguard
EQ2 fan sites
RIFT probably encouraged them that they were on the right path
unknown IP, unknown dev studio, wow clone aspirations - mild succes
TOR
well known IP, well known studio, wow decribed as their "touchstone" - big success? heh
EQ2 fan sites
Op,
Great read! The development process of any video game is all too often the reason for its success or failure.
Bummer on all sides.
What was needed - Bioware developed, Starwars lore driven sandbox with a decent engine.
What we got - WoW with Starwars branding and EQ2's engine.
That recap was well worth the read (assuming it's true of course). I find it hard to believe that Bioware could fail at the development or that EA was so asleep at the switch but there you go.
I wish those in game the best of luck and hope it ultimately fulfills its promise.
@OP
You really should have called this thread "Having followed this game for eight years, here's my summary of WHY things went wrong"
I enjoyed it though. Good read. To bad most of the people here won't bother to read it before they throw out their opinions on what is wrong with the game. Shame since that is really not what this thread is about.
Funny. This site is all about reading. People come here to "read" what other people have to say. It makes me laugh at the sheer stupidity of tl;dr on a site that is all about reading.
Wow total lie there, eq2 uses it's own engine and eq2 is one heck of a better game than swtor, eq2 does not use swtors engine. Rofl.
A good sum up, OP. It sounds accurate. But let me add one thing: hubris. The sheer arrogance not to see ANY advise and listen to ANY sort of critique, and totally denying to learn from any previous MMO.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
How was Bioware of all people going to make a sandbox? Forget MMOs they dont have any experience at all with that type of game. The instant Bioware was taged to make the game, it was deemed that it was not going to be a sandbox.
Bioware never made an MMO prior to TOR either. And plenty of us were expecting TOR to be far more open and have some sandbox elements. It fails at both.
Bang on the money here.
Tho the space combat for me is a minor issue that could of been ignored if the rest of the issues were not sure deal breakers.
D3 would like to have a word with you.
1) Developer arrogance is what went wrong.
Example:
Was in three (did only 2 Beta's though due to work) Beta's, during Beta there was on the official forums a suggestion from the Beta testers about a recognition or Founders Title, we were told in short to go pound sand.
EA/Bioware later releases a subscription plan which includes such a title.
2) Game released without basic 2012 MMO items.
Example:
Unmovable UI
No Guild Banks
No Group Finder
3) Lying to consumers
Example:
High Res graphics mode that we (I) played in beta.
I can tell you the first thing that went wrong just off the thread title.....
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
I am not sure hubris was the problem, certainly not at the beginning. It's my belief that everyone involved - Bioware, LA and EA - all wanted to make a *great* game and, to do that, each one of these three players made a conscious decision to do things differently from the way they had done things in the past.
The arrogance, that you saw - and that we all saw - came in the game's marketing. I believe it was the result of desperation.I speculate that by the beginning of 2011, it was obvious to EA that the game was not going to be a huge long-term success - I mean, after all, along with all the accountants and marketing men and other bullshit artists in the company, there are also plenty of people who play and love. There was no chance that the years and hundreds of millions invested was going to come from mass subscription in the long-term. The only hope of clawing back the investment was from initial sales during a very brief launch window..
That's why the launch date (20th December) was chosen. It was in the middle of the Christmas sales rush - but not so distant from the holiday that word of mouth about the game would get around until the holiday was over. And that's why prices for the game was amped up to price-gouging levels.
That's also why we were subject to such a ridiculous and hysterical marketing campaign in 2011 - arrogant, dismissive and, in the case of buying off game reviewers with both direct and indirect payments, downright dishonest. Everythingt was geared to making gigantic box sales on 20th December and a few weeks after. EA's markeitng team didn't care if it offended subscribers by lying to them and dismissing their views; after all, as DA 2 and ME 3 showed, games players can never truly be 'burned', they will always come back and buy the next game.
Thanks for an interesting read.
I think the term SOME players wanted those features is accurate. The problem is TOR agreed with Some people and ignored the other 90% who did not want NGE 2.0 which is all TOR is. As to point 4 pvp is so bad anyway me and most other pvpers wouldnt touch TOR with a ten foot pole anyway. To point 1, they built the game around end game raiding and running through content to do it, however even that, the selling point to end game raiders was botched. Story was meaningless because content was badly done, horribly done.
In the years of forum discussions on the game people were exited until they started talking about "star wars is about loot" and hyping up interviews with large raiding guilds like Ensidia. If you want to build a game for purely raid progression thats fine, but its oldschool now and even a pretty good WOWesque style game like RIFT. Which to date is still the best modern version of EQ and WOW, only has a population of 200k or so, about the same as EQ2.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
And you lack the ability to explain why.
It was obviously the second failed attempt to attract the same audience with a fan base that rejected it.
I swear Bioware should write a book about the life of SWTOR, they would make 100 million just off that.
Talking about expertise regarding games development. SWTOR felt like KOTOR but with other players running around doing the same missions. I was thinking at the time, 'these people don't know MMO's.'
For me the game fell between MMO and Single Player and ended up being a poor cousin for both genres, therefore people who want immersive single player, pick up Skyrim, those that want immersive MMO go back to whatever they were playing.
The nail in the coffin for me is the complete lack of landscape and exploration. Within 2 days I felt like a rabbit caught in a trap and I wanted to bite my own foot off.
I just thought about the original Star Wars and the wide sweeping shots of desert and sprawling cities. I wanted to get in a hover craft and speed off looking for resources. Instead I felt like a pork chop being pushed through a grinder.
SWTOR my biggest gaming dissapointment ever? Need to think, but its definitely in the top 3.