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Guild Wars 2's Questing System
TheTrueKing
Member Posts: 427
Guild Wars 2 Hand Holding Mechanics That weren't initially part of the game.
During development Anet designed Guild Wars 2 to not have certain things. Not so much hand holding and no linear quest lines. They designed it in a way so you dove into the world and decided your own path within some limits 
and figure out for yourself which direction to go. Watching out for NPC’s running up and requesting your assistance and or entering an area and seeing problems you can assist with, leading you to find Dynamic events and other hidden adventures. Initial testing showed people felt lost and unguided. ANET implement other guide mechanics such as the Scout system within the game so people didn’t just stand around asking “What do I do?”
The Scout system in the game now indicates to you points of interest and renown hearts to help you feel more guided. They show you areas within a location of a zone that will have activity. This system and other features weren’t originally in the game but now provide those who want a more directed path feel a little sense of guidance.
Do you think this added content has caused some to feel they need to play these zones, renown hearts as they did in other games like quest hubs, where you go finish the renown hearts and move on? Do you think these added quest mechanics help the game or hinder the game? Also do you feel that if these mechanics are needed to help people learn the questing system and feel directed in early stages of the game, would the game benefit if these implementations were removed for higher level areas? This would mean that once you learned how to explore by being guided by the scout system and the other implemented mechanics and renown hearts, when you moved into higher areas you’ll start playing the game according to how ANET intentioned it to be played initially?
I personally dove in playing the “quest” system like I did all other games, I felt as some did this just seemed like a linear quest line wrapped pretty because the scout system pointing me in that direction. Once I got out of the initial zone I chose to skip the scout and head out into my own adventure and path. This caused me to break that sense of linear quest grind and actually made me feel what I expected to feel with ANET’s initial development of how this game handled questing. So personally it hand held me into playing it like I had played other games in the past which nearly ruined my questing experience.
My main draw to the game initially was that it was less hand hold-y and more using my brain to figure out what to do, where to go, and how to accomplish my goals. When I found out why these added guiding mechanics were added to the game I personally was seriously discouraged and felt here it goes again, they'll start dumbing down everything. In the past history of games we’ve seen some amazing games be dumbed down and simplified because people complained that they couldn’t “figure things out” on their own or they got bored because they needed guidance. I personally miss games that present challenge and adventure without giving me the feeling like I’m stupid and can’t figure it out on my own but that I need someone to take my hand and lead me thru it... I feel we should be able to choose to have a guide or to disable it.
I love heading out on my own path and not having to find the ! Quest markers or the ? Or in GW2 case the (*) star thing over some NPC‘s head. The fact that NPC’s run up and ask for assistance or that visual and audio que’s can be my indication to go and participate in activities within the world is completely revolutionary to me.
Personally I’d love an option to turn off the mechanics that have dumbed down the game and caused it to be more hand hold-y and simplified. I want the option to play the game as ANET intended it to be played originally. Or at least once you’ve moved out of the starter zones the game should have these training wheel mechanics removed so the game can be played as intended. Yes I do know I do not have to use them, I just feel they shouldn't be there in the first place. People will eventually figure it out and or the community would help them. Markers over quest givers was supposed to be removed from this game which was a huge draw for a lot of people yet because some couldn’t figure out how to play that way they reverted to the traditional style of marking quests on top of the heads, not on all NPC's just certain NPC’s.
What are your thoughts? Do you prefer the way ANET intended the game to be played or how it is now? Do you think these specific mechanics help or hinder the game? Are these mechanics causing individuals to try and play this games quest system as a traditional linear quest hub system and then being disappointed that it feels same old same old? Or do you feel this helps the game by giving people a feeling of similarity but still a unique experience? I’d like to hear your thoughts on this topic.
Comments
Kind of a long post and it was hard to pay attention but from what I can tell you seem to want to have an option to remove the markers? I think a lot of people have asked people this of Anet and there's supposed to be an option to turn those markers off on your map. I personally don't have much of a problem with and prefer it somewhat so I can track how much of a zone I've completed and cause it makes me look forward to the rewards of a zone completion.
I agree that there should cartainly be less guidance in the game. They should remove scouts because while the NPC is explaning where people might need help they reveal like 40% of the map and hide it back. I hate that, I wanted to reveal that myself, but they spoiled it for me.
However! I like that they put points of interests and waypoints in the game, it gives me some sense of accomplishment when I discover them. Also, heart events are not actually real events, those are more static quests that are designed for people who are used to old system. The real thing are random dynamic events that occur around the world, and sometimes you can predict when will it happen by listening to the NPC talking. It's pretty awesome and there's a lot of that stuff. People think when they discover all points of interests, waypoints and do all hearts that they are done, but they are sorely mistaken! There's many hidden events that are waiting to be triggered! And that is what I think people will like the most.
All in all, I wish they just remove scouts and leave everything else, and I'm happy. But I can live with that because I don't have to talk to that NPC if I don't want spoilers.
EDIT: Oh yea! And one other thing. They should hide skill points indicators, at least for those which are hidden (jumping puzzles, underwater tunnels, mini dungeons etc)
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I agree that the Renown Heart system has been misunderstood by a large amount of players.
However, rather than remove them I think ArenaNet should make it clear that you do not need to complete Hearts to progress. As the it is now, the game doesn't really explain to players exactly what the Dynamic Event system entails and thus why so many people think that we are supposed to follow the trail of Hearts.
I think it helps the game. I for one like how it was before but know that besides the fans of GW or those who may play for the first time and really like it are those players who will find the open exploration very different. Different not in a bad way but different in not what they are used to without the linear quest lines.
By Anet adding the Scout system it give guidance for those at the beginning to understand the world they created for their users. Once they feel confortable they can then branch out and see what Anet has done that is so different then other MMO's when it comes to questing and exploration.
It makes the game that much better than what it already is.
not exactly.. I want them to appear if I found them and then stay on my map because it is discovered. On the other hand I do not appreciate the hand holdy mechanics of the Scout system and the markers on some NPC's indicating they have a quest.
Visual and Audio que's were supposed to be the indication not a ! or ? Or something else. I am a completionist and especially so in GW2 I had 3-4 zones 100% completed and enjoyed doing so after I stopped using the scout system to show me where to go. I prefer playing the game as ANET intended and think that the mechanics they put into the game that weren't originally intended for the game should be removed at higher level zones after you love the starter zone or an option to turn them off.
i agree and would like also like to say it helps me also to gather what im doing so much is going on with no idea where i am or what to start on i could end up do the same thing over and over not realizing i am .
i like the scout system it works well as a milestone as it was to let me know ive covered new ground or made it that much farther with the first guild wars i still find myself logging in and just kinda which toon to use what mission should i start with.
so much content kinda leaves at least me feeling overburdened and scout system helps alleviate that feeling somewhat
Personally I'd be happy to see them gone. Unfortunately the sad reality is people make them necessary. The confusion over what is or isn't a dynamic event, alone, should make this evident. People (in general) like familiarity, and will default towards things familiar that they enjoy(ed). This means that when a game comes along that's different, most people are going to (at first) treat it as if it were familiar, anyway.
This is exactly what's been happening w/ GW2. Some people have woken up to this realization, others are still convinced that this game is exactly the same as all the other themeparks out there. The scouting / renown hearts systems are basically a necessary bridge for some of these people to travel in order to really understand and be comfortable w/ dynamic events. If people could handle a truly open game like this, without automatically assuming it has no content if it isn't shoved in your face, then I'd be all for it. Sadly, that's not the case.
Removing these features would cause many players to become totally lost with this game. You may not realize this, but there are still quite a lot of players who don't know basic features like:
- That there are multiple starter zones, and you can travel between them.
- That there are different ways of progressing through the game.
- That you can change the appearance / dye of your gear
- How to enter PvP / WvW.
There's a lot of people that basically need a guide / to be told where to start. Some will build off that for themselves. Others will want repeated hand holding. I think the route Anet took is a decent compromise, if not an unfortunate one.
Those green stars markers are only placed on one NPC at a time (or sometimes on some spot that leads you to instance) are actually just showing you where you left off in personal story, so you can continue.. how else would you know how to continue personal story which is designed to be more traditional GW1 quest system.
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actually what I described has nothing to do with personal story. THere is a gold star looking thing that appears over certain NPC's that lead to off the side type "quests" such as the treasure hunting with the kids in the 25-30 zone and the help create snow man army in the norn zone. The NPC's had golden star type indications they were quests over their head.
The personal story is something totally different and not connected to this topic because that is meant to be linear and guided.
i think he is talking about reknown hearts, and anyone who is bothered by those is paying too much attention to those. They indicate locked out karma venders that you can help out to gain access to all sorts of goodies. People that do them like they are quests, and then complain about the questing system kind of miss the point.
Personally I like the reknown hearts because i end up talking to those NPCs, and NPC dialogue is very good in this game.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
I actually wasn't refering to renown hearts. Though I do welcome them if I have discovered them and once discovered should be indicated as it currently is. I do like the points of interest and such but I feel they should be discovered and indicated only once discovered not pointed out before hand. But thats just my feelings on it. I like surprise and intrigue as to what is around the corner not already knowing ahead of time that there is something there which is waiting to be seen.
They are there to help the supposedly new people find events. As if there are thousands upon thousands pouring into the mmo genre everyday. We're dumb, we don't know how to function.
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They want everyone to be happy. These are the sacrifices made for mass appeal.
Too risky... People might get discouraged.
Pretty much
I'd much prefer a more sandbox approach.
To me it's a decent balance. I would have been OK with the game not having hearts and scouts, and players really having to search high and low for adventure. But I acknowlege that I'm probably in the minority. This gives players used to more structure a familiar base to start with, without ruining the joy of exploration for the rest of us.
If you are speaking for yourself well said ....I hope you found it easier finding events
No, they're there to help the OLD people find events. People have been incredibly trained by MMOs, to the point where they would see a fire in the background or bandits doing something, and NOT HELP because they didn't have a quest to do so.
MMORPGs have trained people to function in strange ways.
Yeah see...us REAL old people'd tell you back in our day, you didn't have ! showing up over someone's head. You had to run up to them, say "Hail" and actually have a conversation with an NPC just to get a quest. You also didn't ahve a tracker reminding you that you had it, or telling you what needed to be done, or where to go....your map didn't shade off the area 5 rat tails could be found..
We also walked uphill to retrieve our corpses when we died. Both ways.
Well, the MEDIUM old players. Also, a lot of people who played things like EQ have been trained to expect things to be more like WOW.
Anything over 6 months is incredibly old by computer standards. People who started with WoW are veteran MMORPG players.
Technically, yes, but practically no. A lot of people who started with WoW don't really have much perspective one it comes to other games in this genre. It's all they know. So while they may have played it a long time, it doesn't really mean they are a veteran to the genre, just to the game.
Personally, I don't really care abou the whole 'veteran' status thing. I haven't been playing as long as some people on these forums, but I've played long enough (and been on the forums long enough) to be able to tell that most people don't have a clue when it comes to MMOs. Veteran or not. This forum tends to cater to the opinion that if a game isn't good, it's not 'sandboxy enough', and when a sanbox releases that doesn't well enough it's either justified as still a success, or 'wasn't a good enough sandbox'.
However, when it comes to the topic of the new era of themepark, and the 'wow clone' I would much more listen to someone who actually saw the shift, rather than someone who came in with it. I find that 'veterans' who came in on the WoW train are actually much better about comparing MMOs to other genres, than to other MMOs.
i think the scout system is fine. it's there if you want to use it, you are not forced to.
i agree with the OP about the points of interest. having them show up on the map sort of negates my exploration. the markers tell me where to go and what to explore.
Another thing about the hearts that not everyone understands is that they are markers of high DE activity.
In fact, Points of interest and Hearts are both markers of high DE activity, the only difference is that hearts give you something to do to hold you in that spot to give you a higher chance of finding DE's.
I think Arena-net's philosophy on the hearts is to allow the people who are used to the old system not only find a more traditional questing experience but also provide ample opportunity for those same people to embrace the new system.
It's smart, if you think about it. Someone who has only played the old system goes to a Heart thinking it's a quest and while they're completing it they get into a DE chain, which leads them off into the world, which leads them to more DE's, etc.
They could remove hearts entirely and replace them with point of interest, but that wouldn't have the same effect (seeing 50 or so points of interest per map could give really confusing/annoying "There's too many, where should i start, where do i go?" effect on the populace - A al Witcher 2's first town (is giving us 30 quests at once in the VERY first town necessary?) - and would ultimately turn people off of the game that would normally enjoy it if there where hearts in game.
Personally, it also helps the completionist in me. I like having multiple objectives per zone, and I also like that it's also broken down into "Major Points of Interest" aka Hearts and normal Points of Interest.
Most of the big meta events have several hearts around them as well, to prove my point, the Shadow behemoth event takes place ON a heart.
The scouts do seem like a useless npc though.
Renown Hearts are more like a check point system than a linear means of presenting content. It may not feel that way in the level 2-6 stretch, but the further you get into the game, the more open everything becomes and any thoughts that the game is linear flies out the window.
The renown tasks themselves are easy to do, offer nice XP and also unlock the renown vendor function for the heart task NPC. So, even as a free ranging explorer I still do the hearts when I find them, but I don't interact with the scout NPCs, relying on my exploration alone to uncover various renown tasks along the way.
They do, however, provide a trail of bread crumbs for players wanting a little more direction from the game to follow. I think that some people have had bad experiences with RPGs that have lacked guidance, because even though there was freedom to do tasks in an order, players still had to deal with the confusion of managing a quest log full of tasks, many of which the player has lost any sense of context for by the time they get around to doing them. GW2 overcomes those issues because of the nature of content delivery in the game. There is no quest log. When you stumble accross a Dynamic Event, you can participate, or not. Even the renown tasks disappear from your interface if you move beyond the range of the task.
I think that for a lot of players, the scout system for following the renown heart trail of bread crumbs will serve more as training wheels than as a system for navigating the full breadth of the game world. Many people who have never been explorers in previous MMORPGs will at least find exploration in GW2 tolerable, even if the process doesn't actually teach them to love exploration.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
A lot of them don't show up on the map until you are fairly close. I prefer it this way, rather than being forced to look up a list of PoIs on the web, because in the course of my exploration I some how missed the 20 foot radius around the PoI trigger!
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
