Blue plate special = MMORPG's Today

gieger808 · July 2012

I don't know. I love mmorpg gaming, but I just haven't been able to stomache what has been served the past few years. And I'm not sure why.

Perhaps developers have had greed overwrite any common sense they had. They homogenized the genre in an attempt to attract as many people as possible. They seem to think they can be everything to everyone.

I'm talking about the death of niche gaming. Sandbox, pvp, pick your poison. The idea that you need to pick a style, and do it well has all but disappered.

I have questions though. How is it that they don't know they are making bad games? Aren't they paying attention? Why aren't they smart enough to see that the WoW effect* can't be dupicated?

Anyone else digusted with the current state of the MMORPG genre? Why? Have any solutions or just thoughts to share?

*The WoW effect is referring to the idea that WoW is the "Pacman" of our generation. A product that came out at the perfect time in our culture and technology level and had great success as a result.

GTwander · July 2012

Originally posted by gieger808
They homogenized the genre in an attempt to attract as many people as possible.

~and thusly there is no really difference between one or the other anymore.

The only thing that satisfies now are the indie or risky projects that go out on a limb to be different.

AlBQuirky · July 2012

Originally posted by gieger808
I have questions though. How is it that they don't know they are making bad games? Aren't they paying attention? Why aren't they smart enough to see that the WoW effect* can't be dupicated?

They may not be getting WoW numbers, but they are making money. That seems to be good enough for them.

Vesavius · July 2012

The continued push of games into the mainstream and the quest for that money spinning 'broad appeal'...

Yeah, it's crap.

Smaller budgets (with less expectations attached) with more focused target audiences are definitely what I would like to see, but the trouble with that is the stunning lack of tolerance for anything short of perfection from the player base.

They want indie niche sensibilities with AAA size budgets, and the two don't marry well.

To be honest, the genre needs to just die in terms of the mass market and get back to it's nerd grass roots. Get back to the same type of guys that found it in '97-'99.

fs23otm · July 2012

IMHO, the real issue is the people that always cry "It's themepark, not sandbox". There will never be another EQ, UO, SWG type game again. Accept it, and move on.

People just need to realise that and then play the best available game.

Of all the games out there I have played, GW2 is the cloest one to the original EQ in that I don't have to play any certain way in order to enjoy my time. Sure it doesn't have 100 man raids... but i didn't raid in EQ because it was 100 man... i raided for the challenge. Now I can do the same but with a small group of 5.

Niche games will never be AAA titles that have 1+ million people playing, accept that and you can play niche games all you like... there are tons out there.

Kyleran · July 2012

Originally posted by Vesavius
The continued push of games into the mainstream and the quest for that money spinning 'broad appeal'...

Yeah, it's crap.

Smaller budgets (with less expectations attached) with more focused target audiences are definitely what I would like to see, but the trouble with that is the stunning lack of tolerance for anything short of perfection from the player base.

They want indie niche sensibilities with AAA size budgets, and the two don't marry well.

To be honest, the genre needs to just die in terms of the mass market and get back to it's nerd grass roots. Get back to the same type of guys that found it in '97-'99.

Back around 1983 the video game console market crashed in the NA market and many felt it was largely due to:

"there were several reasons for the crash, but the main cause was supersaturation of the market with hundreds of mostly low-quality games which resulted in the loss of consumer confidence."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_video_game_crash_of_1983

I almost feel like the MMORPG genre is rapidly reaching this same state. Sure, you could argue the quality is not really suffering (at least mechanically) but in terms of variety it certainly seems to be in a downward trend in a flooded market.

The good news is that if it crashes and burns, usually out of the ashes we see a rebirth of originality, so perhaps letting it all fall down and go boom would be the best thing for the genre as a whole.

maplestone · July 2012

Originally posted by gieger808

Why aren't they smart enough to see that the WoW effect* can't be dupicated?

The entire history of publishing has been based on "quick, clone that success!" Why would MMO publishers think their genre is different from books, movies, music, boardgames, video games ...

maplestone · July 2012

Originally posted by Kyleran

I almost feel like the MMORPG genre is rapidly reaching this same state. Sure, you could argue the quality is not really suffering (at least mechanically) but in terms of variety it certainly seems to be in a downward trend in a flooded market.

I feel it's not going to be the quality of the games that will create a backlash, it's too much "innovation" in business models that is going to make consumers feel a growing uncertainty in exactly what it is they are signing up for.

truce12 · July 2012

Originally posted by fs23otm
IMHO, the real issue is the people that always cry "It's themepark, not sandbox". There will never be another EQ, UO, SWG type game again. Accept it, and move on.

People just need to realise that and then play the best available game.

I refuse to believe that,as crazy as it sounds i think some game studio will recreate a game like one of these that will be a blast.

CookieTime · July 2012

I thought I was going to read something about Tribes: Ascend..

IstrebiteI · July 2012

As long as people keep buying, they will keep selling. This is the FAIL of the capitalism (not that i think communism or socialism is any better). You exploit people's sins, weak sides, you trick people into wanting something (all those ads telling you you cant live without ITEM X or SERVICE Y). Its getting money that counts, and you get money by selling something, so far as you're in net plus, doesnt matter how good it actually is.

Around 2000, my father told me a story from his friend worker at wolkswagen - their workers were quite frankly told to make WORSER cars. Car shouldnt be very well made together, it should turn into pile of crap five-ten years after production so you buy another car. And another. In clothing, mobile phones and stuff like that its even worser - you buy some shit that turns to crap or becomes "not trendy" or "outdated" in a year or so. And so on and so on. In software they actually make crap to milk you more money for patches/support/dlc.

This aint MMO only. Its everywhere.

Shariest · July 2012

Originally posted by IstrebiteI
As long as people keep buying, they will keep selling. This is the FAIL of the capitalism (not that i think communism or socialism is any better). You exploit people's sins, weak sides, you trick people into wanting something (all those ads telling you you cant live without ITEM X or SERVICE Y). Its getting money that counts, and you get money by selling something, so far as you're in net plus, doesnt matter how good it actually is.

Around 2000, my father told me a story from his friend worker at wolkswagen - their workers were quite frankly told to make WORSER cars. Car shouldnt be very well made together, it should turn into pile of crap five-ten years after production so you buy another car. And another. In clothing, mobile phones and stuff like that its even worser - you buy some shit that turns to crap or becomes "not trendy" or "outdated" in a year or so. And so on and so on. In software they actually make crap to milk you more money for patches/support/dlc.

This aint MMO only. Its everywhere.

I agree.

MMORPG's aren't games today, they're a BUSINESS. The bigger companies need to avoid risks to keep themselfs standing. I could talk about EA, but everyone knows about the situation(s) inside

I refuse to be believe that Greed is behind 100% of these problems that MMORPG's have faced. World economicly is a disaster, after throwing money around U.S, Greece,Italy, and many others are swimming in debts. In My Opinion mentioned are a very ood greason to play safe

But gamers don't have to stand it! We could always stop buying the games, but that would only worsen the developers situation! Only thing that we can do is wait for the Burn'n' Phoenix and see if we get that Tabula Rasa for the MMORPG's

It's very hard to do anything but wait

dave6660 · July 2012

Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Vesavius

The continued push of games into the mainstream and the quest for that money spinning 'broad appeal'...

Yeah, it's crap.

Smaller budgets (with less expectations attached) with more focused target audiences are definitely what I would like to see, but the trouble with that is the stunning lack of tolerance for anything short of perfection from the player base.

They want indie niche sensibilities with AAA size budgets, and the two don't marry well.

To be honest, the genre needs to just die in terms of the mass market and get back to it's nerd grass roots. Get back to the same type of guys that found it in '97-'99.

Back around 1983 the video game console market crashed in the NA market and many felt it was largely due to:

"there were several reasons for the crash, but the main cause was supersaturation of the market with hundreds of mostly low-quality games which resulted in the loss of consumer confidence."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_video_game_crash_of_1983

I almost feel like the MMORPG genre is rapidly reaching this same state. Sure, you could argue the quality is not really suffering (at least mechanically) but in terms of variety it certainly seems to be in a downward trend in a flooded market.

The good news is that if it crashes and burns, usually out of the ashes we see a rebirth of originality, so perhaps letting it all fall down and go boom would be the best thing for the genre as a whole.

I'm really looking forward to the day this happens.

I agree that the genre would be better off if it was just the computer nerds and dungeons and dragons types.

dave6660 · July 2012

Originally posted by Shariest
Originally posted by IstrebiteI

As long as people keep buying, they will keep selling. This is the FAIL of the capitalism (not that i think communism or socialism is any better). You exploit people's sins, weak sides, you trick people into wanting something (all those ads telling you you cant live without ITEM X or SERVICE Y). Its getting money that counts, and you get money by selling something, so far as you're in net plus, doesnt matter how good it actually is.

Around 2000, my father told me a story from his friend worker at wolkswagen - their workers were quite frankly told to make WORSER cars. Car shouldnt be very well made together, it should turn into pile of crap five-ten years after production so you buy another car. And another. In clothing, mobile phones and stuff like that its even worser - you buy some shit that turns to crap or becomes "not trendy" or "outdated" in a year or so. And so on and so on. In software they actually make crap to milk you more money for patches/support/dlc.

This aint MMO only. Its everywhere.

I agree.

MMORPG's aren't games today, they're a BUSINESS. The bigger companies need to avoid risks to keep themselfs standing. I could talk about EA, but everyone knows about the situation(s) inside

I refuse to be believe that Greed is behind 100% of these problems that MMORPG's have faced. World economicly is a disaster, after throwing money around U.S, Greece,Italy, and many others are swimming in debts. In My Opinion mentioned are a very ood greason to play safe

But gamers don't have to stand it! We could always stop buying the games, but that would only worsen the developers situation! Only thing that we can do is wait for the Burn'n' Phoenix and see if we get that Tabula Rasa for the MMORPG's

It's very hard to do anything but wait

That's because it's not. Greed has been a constant in human history. Something else changed.

rdrakken · July 2012

Originally posted by dave6660
I'm really looking forward to the day this happens.

I agree that the genre would be better off if it was just the computer nerds and dungeons and dragons types.

Computer nerds and D&D types are the cause of the MMORPG market being what it is.

EQ became the "standard" because all the D&D nerds flocked to it making it far more popular than the games that most of you are screaming for...Asherons Call "sandbox", Anarchy Online "modern and different"..then came DAoC and the nerds flocked to it, a EQ clone...another D&D style game and the die was cast for the genre. WoW, Warhammer and most other major MMOs are all cloned from EQ.

If you look outside the box that EQ created, the Asherons Call and Anarchy Online players...they fall outside the mold that is the EQ type. They are more action oriented and Sci-fi fans, sword and sorcery/holy trinity is overdone, overrated and vastly limiting.

Caldrin · July 2012

Originally posted by rdrakken
Originally posted by dave6660
I'm really looking forward to the day this happens.

I agree that the genre would be better off if it was just the computer nerds and dungeons and dragons types.

Computer nerds and D&D types are the cause of the MMORPG market being what it is.

EQ became the "standard" because all the D&D nerds flocked to it making it far more popular than the games that most of you are screaming for...Asherons Call "sandbox", Anarchy Online "modern and different"..then came DAoC and the nerds flocked to it, a EQ clone...another D&D style game and the die was cast for the genre. WoW, Warhammer and most other major MMOs are all cloned from EQ.

If you look outside the box that EQ created, the Asherons Call and Anarchy Online players...they fall outside the mold that is the EQ type. They are more action oriented and Sci-fi fans, sword and sorcery/holy trinity is overdone, overrated and vastly limiting.

WOW was not really a clone of EQ if you think about it the games only had a few things in common..

EQ you had to group up to do anything, no real quests..

WOW was basically all quest based.. sure WOW borrowed from EQ but it also borrowed from a lot of others.

Sure EQ and AC helped change the industry but WOW helped to destroy t.. not everything was bad about wow but the main AAA companies realised they could make a shit load of cash and have tried to emulate WOW success ever since..

soulmirror · July 2012

Originally posted by fs23otm
IMHO, the real issue is the people that always cry "It's themepark, not sandbox". There will never be another EQ, UO, SWG type game again. Accept it, and move on.

People just need to realise that and then play the best available game.

Of all the games out there I have played, GW2 is the cloest one to the original EQ in that I don't have to play any certain way in order to enjoy my time. Sure it doesn't have 100 man raids... but i didn't raid in EQ because it was 100 man... i raided for the challenge. Now I can do the same but with a small group of 5.

Niche games will never be AAA titles that have 1+ million people playing, accept that and you can play niche games all you like... there are tons out there.

In other words, support the 2nd rate games so developers think they are making a good game and then continue the downward spiral of MMO's... good going , just accept things and never question them.....

TheLizardbones · July 2012

This is not 1983. The environment is not the same as it was then, especially for MMORPG. It takes 10 million dollars at a minimum to build one. The market is not going to get supersaturated when it costs that much. Not only that, most of those 'fail' MMORPG are still running and still collecting money. That's not something that happened in 1983. The money isn't leaving the MMORPG genre, so there's probably not going to be a crash. If anything, there are more people than there ever have been playing MMORPG.

If there is a crash, you won't see Indie developers rise from the ashes. It's not going to suddenly cost one million dollars instead of ten million dollars to make an MMORPG. Take a look at the Indie MMORPG right now, and that's pretty much what you're going to see if there's a crash in the MMORPG genre, only worse. If the Indie developers are writing something you want to play right now, they're not going to write something you want to play if the entire market for MMORPG crashes.

That doesn't mean that the current crop of MMORPG are the best ever. We're just not headed for some kind of crash.

Shariest · July 2012

Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Shariest

Originally posted by IstrebiteI

As long as people keep buying, they will keep selling. This is the FAIL of the capitalism (not that i think communism or socialism is any better). You exploit people's sins, weak sides, you trick people into wanting something (all those ads telling you you cant live without ITEM X or SERVICE Y). Its getting money that counts, and you get money by selling something, so far as you're in net plus, doesnt matter how good it actually is.

Around 2000, my father told me a story from his friend worker at wolkswagen - their workers were quite frankly told to make WORSER cars. Car shouldnt be very well made together, it should turn into pile of crap five-ten years after production so you buy another car. And another. In clothing, mobile phones and stuff like that its even worser - you buy some shit that turns to crap or becomes "not trendy" or "outdated" in a year or so. And so on and so on. In software they actually make crap to milk you more money for patches/support/dlc.

This aint MMO only. Its everywhere.

I agree.

MMORPG's aren't games today, they're a BUSINESS. The bigger companies need to avoid risks to keep themselfs standing. I could talk about EA, but everyone knows about the situation(s) inside

I refuse to be believe that Greed is behind 100% of these problems that MMORPG's have faced. World economicly is a disaster, after throwing money around U.S, Greece,Italy, and many others are swimming in debts. In My Opinion mentioned are a very ood greason to play safe

But gamers don't have to stand it! We could always stop buying the games, but that would only worsen the developers situation! Only thing that we can do is wait for the Burn'n' Phoenix and see if we get that Tabula Rasa for the MMORPG's

It's very hard to do anything but wait

That's because it's not. Greed has been a constant in human history. Something else changed.

I think it's fear...

bunnyhopper · July 2012

Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by gieger808

They homogenized the genre in an attempt to attract as many people as possible.

~and thusly there is no really difference between one or the other anymore.

The only thing that satisfies now are the indie or risky projects that go out on a limb to be different.

Yeah, I have to agree with this to a greater extent.

dave6660 · July 2012

Originally posted by rdrakken
Originally posted by dave6660
I'm really looking forward to the day this happens.

I agree that the genre would be better off if it was just the computer nerds and dungeons and dragons types.

Computer nerds and D&D types are the cause of the MMORPG market being what it is.

EQ became the "standard" because all the D&D nerds flocked to it making it far more popular than the games that most of you are screaming for...Asherons Call "sandbox", Anarchy Online "modern and different"..then came DAoC and the nerds flocked to it, a EQ clone...another D&D style game and the die was cast for the genre. WoW, Warhammer and most other major MMOs are all cloned from EQ.

If you look outside the box that EQ created, the Asherons Call and Anarchy Online players...they fall outside the mold that is the EQ type. They are more action oriented and Sci-fi fans, sword and sorcery/holy trinity is overdone, overrated and vastly limiting.

You're taking what I said a bit too literally. I should of said "die hard rpg fans". It has nothing to do with the themepark vs sandbox holy war.

That was a small market though. So they expanded to try to attract the action, RTS and FPS crowds. Mix all those genres and play styles together and pour it out into the steaming mess that is todays mmorpg genre.

Honestly, how much "rpg" is left in todays so called "mmorpgs"?

dave6660 · July 2012

Originally posted by lizardbones
This is not 1983. The environment is not the same as it was then, especially for MMORPG. It takes 10 million dollars at a minimum to build one. The market is not going to get supersaturated when it costs that much. Not only that, most of those 'fail' MMORPG are still running and still collecting money. That's not something that happened in 1983. The money isn't leaving the MMORPG genre, so there's probably not going to be a crash. If anything, there are more people than there ever have been playing MMORPG.

If there is a crash, you won't see Indie developers rise from the ashes. It's not going to suddenly cost one million dollars instead of ten million dollars to make an MMORPG. Take a look at the Indie MMORPG right now, and that's pretty much what you're going to see if there's a crash in the MMORPG genre, only worse. If the Indie developers are writing something you want to play right now, they're not going to write something you want to play if the entire market for MMORPG crashes.

That doesn't mean that the current crop of MMORPG are the best ever. We're just not headed for some kind of crash.

The business cycle always has booms and busts. To think there won't be another crash is naive. Most economist thought the same way about the housing market not too long ago. Nobody ever expects it until it happens then the 20/20 hindsight makes the warning signs obvious.

The video game industry is due for a good shake up.

Vesavius · July 2012

Originally posted by rdrakken
Originally posted by dave6660
I'm really looking forward to the day this happens.

I agree that the genre would be better off if it was just the computer nerds and dungeons and dragons types.

Computer nerds and D&D types are the cause of the MMORPG market being what it is.

EQ became the "standard" because all the D&D nerds flocked to it making it far more popular than the games that most of you...

Nah, I disagree.

EQ did not create 'the standard'. It set the blueprint for WoW to follow but on it's own it would not have dictated such a narrow game design in the way that we have seen... it was popular, but not THAT popular. On it's own it would never have triggered the cash grab we have seen. That can only be put at the feet of WoW.

With no WoW we would have seen a lot more diversity post EQ, and if EQ2 had still only performed as well as it did the MMORPG gaming space would have looked very different now.

It was the mainstream (the non nerds that all of a sudden latched on to the 'new' fad and wanted to use their shiney new internet connections for something) and the cash they brought that has defined the genre. Just because EQ was copied by WoW you cannot say it was responsible for creating the gold rush that has strangled the genre for the last decade or so.

You are blaming the wrong game, and blaming the wrong user base.

nariusseldon · July 2012

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by gieger808
I have questions though. How is it that they don't know they are making bad games? Aren't they paying attention? Why aren't they smart enough to see that the WoW effect* can't be dupicated?

They may not be getting WoW numbers, but they are making money. That seems to be good enough for them.

Good or bad is subjective. Metacritic scores and sales are not. No one thinks they are making bad games just because you think so.

nariusseldon · July 2012

Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by gieger808

They homogenized the genre in an attempt to attract as many people as possible.

~and thusly there is no really difference between one or the other anymore.

The only thing that satisfies now are the indie or risky projects that go out on a limb to be different.

Different != good. How many indie projects fail?

Plus, are AAA games really the same? The first Dead Space is fresh and different. The first Bioshock is fresh and different. The first borderland is fresh and different.

Xiaoki · July 2012

Originally posted by gieger808
I'm talking about the death of niche gaming. Sandbox, pvp, pick your poison. The idea that you need to pick a style, and do it well has all but disappered.

So, your argument is that MMORPGs are dying because sandboxes are better than themeparks?

Theres already a thread for debating sandbox vs themepark.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/317478/Sandbox-vs-Themepark-Discussion-Thread.html

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Blue plate special = MMORPG's Today

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV