Im just gonna go out and say we were rich, and had all the upgrades and blueprints we coulda wanted, and then we go double teamed by the other servers and we couldnt do anything with all of that stuff because we had no access to supply camps, we were literally crippled for 4 hours before we could rally and get a camp back and make the slow progress of rebuilding.
Money will make a difference, but it will be no game breaker of any sort
I believe so people think we are talking about supply and demend, we are not, we are talking about the supply resources you get in the WvW that you must use to build EVERYTHING
lol. are gw2 fans that full of pride they cannot admit there is even a chance of a possible problem here?
I'll admit it, It's P2W... Only for the first week though. By the end of the BWE I was level 17 on my warrior, level 10 on my thief, and a ranger level 8ish.
My warrior was making more than enough money with attacking keeps and supply camps that I was able to repair and buy a decent amount of siege (20 ballista's hahaha). Keep in mind i bought those with half badges of honor (Loot drops off dead enemies) and spare money. Not to mention I had so much damn Karma if I didn't have enough money to repair i just bought new armor haha...
I spent 20 bucks in the Gem shop too, only cause i know i'll get all that back at launch, so my and my guildies get to start with a buffer zone on money for leveling up woop woop!
Oh any if you want to farm Badges of Honor, get a couple peeps and camp a supply point in the back of enemy territory... With ballista's. We held off a zerg for about 10 minutes. I got 20 BoH, they got about the same too...
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
pay 2 win? spawning many blueprients? tell me how many resource do you need to make the ballista you can affor it yourself? no you can't. and the blueprint cost is almost nothing i can say 1 thing. If anyone crying about the blueprient cost i dont know wheter you are just plain stupid or trolling. (10 silver?)
The only way two rams are going to make a difference in "quickly" dropping a keep is if the defenders are stupid. Hey, there's someone building something in front of the door. Maybe we should keep that from happening, yes? You're also assuming you just steamrolled over every supply camp you went to. Oh, and that no one killed the 8 people carry full supply you needed just to put down two rams in the first place. And that no one upgraded the keep's and supply camps defense on the other side. And a hundred other things.
And for all those upgrades, last I looked you needed supply, not just throwing gold at them. You have to have supply to make supply.
The supply for the camp upgrades is in the Supply Camp which you upgrade. I can double the supply that caravans from that camp provide. As well as provide guards for the caravans. I can also increase the amount of guards at the camp so that you need a bigger group to take it. All this I can do with zero supply problems because they are at the supply camp. I also doubled the supply that camp provides my holdings.
And this all completely ignores the fact that, once again, the cost in gold of blueprints is tiny. I could buy two rams at level 10 and not break the bank.
You are right. But can you do that non stop? As well as drop arrow carts on walls? As well as spawn them whenever you want in the field? You might be able to drop two rams on one gate. Then you are going to have to take several objectives before you can buy anything again.
So here's a total list of all the assumptions made to let that scenario above work:
The other side didn't offer meaningful defense anywhere
The other side did not upgrade anything
The other side did not use counter-seige
The other side did not intercept and kill supply runners
Your side was so mind-bogglingly poor that they couldn't buy a couple 2 silver blueprints without using cash from the gem shop.
From my experience people were begging for money in WvWvW so they could afford upgrades. They were spamming chat with messages. If the other side offers meaningful defence I can provide a tipping point by spawning whatever is needed in any situation. If we are facing a larger group I can fall back to a chokepoint and spawn an arrow cart or two. If they have defences on the keep I can spawn multiple trebs. It doesn't guarantee victory but it does give me an advantage because it gives all the tools I need to deal with all kinds of different scenarios in WvWvW.
I don't see how you can dispute how this allows me to have a bigger impact on my teams performance than someone who is unwilling to buy Gems at launch.
I don't see how you can dispute how this allows me to have a bigger impact on my teams performance than someone who is unwilling to buy Gems at launch.
All sides will be buying gems more than likely. It will balance out. You can buy twenty rams but without the teamwork to build them it'll benefit no one. The game is supposed to be balancing servers on a daily basis for the first few days to weeks after launch
(per GW2 Blog "We have seen quite a few questions and concerns about world-versus-world match length at launch. We’re expecting to see large population changes across all worlds in the first few weeks as more players get into the game and guilds start getting settled.
To help account for the rapidly fluctuating populations at launch, we’ll initially use the 24-hour match format until world populations settle down a bit and we are able to get some data that will help avoid having two-week-long extreme mismatches. Once most worlds are reliably matching up against worlds of similar strength, we will switch over to playing the two-week-duration match cycles.")
So yes, you can stock up on all you want for the first few days and blow your load early, but winning a 24hour battle won't amount to much and by time the 14day, meaningful battles arrive, people will be able to afford something worth mentioning.
As I said, you may have the funds to buy 5 trebs, but you'll need to rally resources from everyone across multiple supply camps to set them up and defend them. The checks are in place to limit these types of advantages.
Edit: And there will be folks on all servers buying gems, you will have your doppleganger to counter your siege rush.
I don't see how you can dispute how this allows me to have a bigger impact on my teams performance than someone who is unwilling to buy Gems at launch.
All sides will be buying gems more than likely. It will balance out. You can buy twenty rams but without the teamwork to build them it'll benefit no one. The game is supposed to be balancing servers on a daily basis for the first few days to weeks after launch
(per GW2 Blog "We have seen quite a few questions and concerns about world-versus-world match length at launch. We’re expecting to see large population changes across all worlds in the first few weeks as more players get into the game and guilds start getting settled.
To help account for the rapidly fluctuating populations at launch, we’ll initially use the 24-hour match format until world populations settle down a bit and we are able to get some data that will help avoid having two-week-long extreme mismatches. Once most worlds are reliably matching up against worlds of similar strength, we will switch over to playing the two-week-duration match cycles.")
So yes, you can stock up on all you want for the first few days and blow your load early, but winning a 24hour battle won't amount to much and by time the 14day, meaningful battles arrive, people will be able to afford something worth mentioning.
As I said, you may have the funds to buy 5 trebs, but you'll need to rally resources from everyone across multiple supply camps to set them up and defend them. The checks are in place to limit these types of advantages.
Edit: And there will be folks on all servers buying gems, you will have your doppleganger to counter your siege rush.
Exactly this post. It's very easy to get Blueprints though. Most people use arrow carts (yuck), I use well placed ballista's, a Ballista costs me 3 Badges of honor. I can get that in about 30 seconds with a ballista. Considering most fights last about 10 minutes, tally up those badges and free siege.
Only people who don't understand the game mechanics will "P2W". Because in their eyes, that's the only way to do it. Well in mine, I get to levle 5, buy a ballista with silver, then go out and farm Badges of Honor off mindless zergs. Next thing you know, I've got 10 ballista's in my pocket, 2 trebs, and 4 rams. That's right. I got ALL those off Badges of Honor.
The first week is the real P2W area. And the first week I won't evne PvP much. I want to get to level 50ish before I get into it.
Watch me Play 2 Win you fools!
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Exactly this post. It's very easy to get Blueprints though. Most people use arrow carts (yuck), I use well placed ballista's, a Ballista costs me 3 Badges of honor. I can get that in about 30 seconds with a ballista. Considering most fights last about 10 minutes, tally up those badges and free siege.
Only people who don't understand the game mechanics will "P2W". Because in their eyes, that's the only way to do it. Well in mine, I get to levle 5, buy a ballista with silver, then go out and farm Badges of Honor off mindless zergs. Next thing you know, I've got 10 ballista's in my pocket, 2 trebs, and 4 rams. That's right. I got ALL those off Badges of Honor.
The first week is the real P2W area. And the first week I won't evne PvP much. I want to get to level 50ish before I get into it.
Watch me Play 2 Win you fools!
Did I state in my post P2W anywhere?
What I am saying is, that at launch, buying gems and selling those gems for gold, gives you a substantial advantage. It will greatly increase the potential impact you can have on your servers performance in WvWvW.
Exactly this post. It's very easy to get Blueprints though. Most people use arrow carts (yuck), I use well placed ballista's, a Ballista costs me 3 Badges of honor. I can get that in about 30 seconds with a ballista. Considering most fights last about 10 minutes, tally up those badges and free siege.
Only people who don't understand the game mechanics will "P2W". Because in their eyes, that's the only way to do it. Well in mine, I get to levle 5, buy a ballista with silver, then go out and farm Badges of Honor off mindless zergs. Next thing you know, I've got 10 ballista's in my pocket, 2 trebs, and 4 rams. That's right. I got ALL those off Badges of Honor.
The first week is the real P2W area. And the first week I won't evne PvP much. I want to get to level 50ish before I get into it.
Watch me Play 2 Win you fools!
Did I state in my post P2W anywhere?
What I am saying is, that at launch, buying gems and selling those gems for gold, gives you a substantial advantage. It will greatly increase the potential impact you can have on your servers performance in WvWvW.
Yay your server will be rated higher for the first 24 hours. Then reset, then they will pay again and win for another 24 hours only. Then once things stabilize and the real WvWvW starts (in 2 week matches) the server that paid will realize they didn't gain anything. Now everyone has money (blueprints are cheap once you are higher level) and most people will be at least level 30 with an elite skill and lots of utilities. Try gaining an advantage then.
I think having WvW matches on a 24hour rotation at launch is an excellent idea to reduce the effect of the Cash Shop (in any way) in the game.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
What I am saying is, that at launch, buying gems and selling those gems for gold, gives you a substantial advantage. It will greatly increase the potential impact you can have on your servers performance in WvWvW.
But with that impact being reset every night it won't amount to much of an advantage. Yes, you may drive your team to victory in the one of four zones you're in, but you could easily lose the others, and even then, come the next day, it amounts to nothing.
I do really see your point, there is potential for someone to make a good amount of coin and buy a lot of things out the gate, but I, personally, do not think it will have such a grave impact. Even then, who is to say that the gem store won't start out selling gems at 1copper to the thousand?
We'll just have to see what happens I suppose. I feel that even if someone has twenty trebuchets, they'll be hard pressed to find the hundreds of supplies and cooperation needed to build and defend them. The same goes for keep upgrades. You can order all you want, but if 10 guys sit around camping your dolyaks it'll never get completed.
One thing Atlan, about people begging for gold....
I'd suspect they were people levelling soley via WvW. Right now the drops are not sufficient enough to support you that way. Anet has stated they are aware and are tweaking them. As a player that PVEs quite a bit, I can say I WVW'd a good bit of BWE 2 and never had money issues with a level 25+, but I had a good cash base to start with. i made very little in WvW.
What I am saying is, that at launch, buying gems and selling those gems for gold, gives you a substantial advantage. It will greatly increase the potential impact you can have on your servers performance in WvWvW.
But with that impact being reset every night it won't amount to much of an advantage. Yes, you may drive your team to victory in the one of four zones you're in, but you could easily lose the others, and even then, come the next day, it amounts to nothing.
I do really see your point, there is potential for someone to make a good amount of coin and buy a lot of things out the gate, but I, personally, do not think it will have such a grave impact. Even then, who is to say that the gem store won't start out selling gems at 1copper to the thousand?
We'll just have to see what happens I suppose. I feel that even if someone has twenty trebuchets, they'll be hard pressed to find the hundreds of supplies and cooperation needed to build and defend them. The same goes for keep upgrades. You can order all you want, but if 10 guys sit around camping your dolyaks it'll never get completed.
If I stage a fight between two people and give one person a bat, that he can only use for that fight. The fact that he can only use it for that fight, does not do anything to nullify the advantage it gives him, for that fight.
You do indeed need supply. However gold helps you to get, increase and maintain supply in many ways. First I can increase the amount a supply camp produces. Once that it is done, the supply will have replenished. I can than hire guards to protect the supply camps, dolyaks.
I can also drop an arrow cart or a ballista to defend it. The supply is right beside it and I can build it myself in under a minute. I can also hire extra guards to help protect the camp.
What I am saying is, that at launch, buying gems and selling those gems for gold, gives you a substantial advantage. It will greatly increase the potential impact you can have on your servers performance in WvWvW.
But with that impact being reset every night it won't amount to much of an advantage. Yes, you may drive your team to victory in the one of four zones you're in, but you could easily lose the others, and even then, come the next day, it amounts to nothing.
I do really see your point, there is potential for someone to make a good amount of coin and buy a lot of things out the gate, but I, personally, do not think it will have such a grave impact. Even then, who is to say that the gem store won't start out selling gems at 1copper to the thousand?
We'll just have to see what happens I suppose. I feel that even if someone has twenty trebuchets, they'll be hard pressed to find the hundreds of supplies and cooperation needed to build and defend them. The same goes for keep upgrades. You can order all you want, but if 10 guys sit around camping your dolyaks it'll never get completed.
If I stage a fight between two people and give one person a bat, that he can only use for that fight. The fact that he can only use it for that fight, does not do anything to nullify the advantage it gives him, for that fight.
You do indeed need supply. However gold helps you to get, increase and maintain supply in many ways. First I can increase the amount a supply camp produces. Once that it is done, the supply will have replenished. I can than hire guards to protect the supply camps, dolyaks.
I can also drop an arrow cart or a ballista to defend it. The supply is right beside it and I can build it myself in under a minute. I can also hire extra guards to help protect the camp.
Except we're not talking about two people. Analogies aren't very good at explaining these types of things. You can mass defend that supply camp all you want, the other team will sneak by and take the keep. You can defend that keep all you want, someone will take all your supply camps. Unless you plan to be everywhere doing everything it won't amount to much.
Everything you're doing at your supply camp, some other rich goon will be doing at another. It will give advantage for the first few moments, I won't even say days, until people can afford siege of their own. Its a team environment where numbers win, not one guy with a bank account.
Again, we're still on the assumption that the gold for gems will be available at full price from day one. I'm sure Anet has taken it into account, we'll just have to see if they chose to act on it and how.
Edit: And during the first few weeks there will be no data from which to rank servers to begin with. It will be a gamble on all fronts. You may be on a smaller server pitted against two of the largest and have population issues or any other number of hinderances. Judging advantage in the first few weeks based off of a days early income doesn't make sense to me.
People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.
well considering every single MMO out has hundreds of sites for gold farmers you could say any single MMO is pay to win in that regard. Most people who say pay to win mean you can buy items that make you "stronger" than people who do not pay for items and those items are ONLY available to players who pay real money, not that they can get stuff faster that is not pay to win.
And that ends this thread, the whole WvWvW argument by the op is wrong. Sorry mate but as mentioned by another in this thread, to even go on the theory of buying a ton of blue prints for siege , you still need a ton of suppy, and frankly the things you are telling us would = about 50 unique individuals running supply and building those items. In an average beta run that would be about 30+ min of setup. I doubt it was so huge. Maybe 4 or 5 plus some minors on the ground.
Point being, no way is this pay to win, that whole meaning has been distorted by those that feel they have been jilted in game for they don't have the funds to get something the other guy got. IE the title you so much obviously want.[mod edit]
Some will undoubtedly constantly bring up the argument of gold vs wall upgrades etc is paying to win, but it would be so ONLY and ONLY IF YOU USED REAL LIFE MONEY TO DO SO and there was no other means to do it. Get your definitions correct.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
The exchange rate was about 50 silver per 100 gems or so, and 4000 gems cost about $50 which means just 100g for Commander title would have cost him about $250, not including what was spend upgrading keeps and buying golems, which means he'd have had to spend probably upwards of $400.
1) He's insane, and not representative of what the greater majority of players will be doing.
2) Not likely to do that in live anyway, since money will get refunded and thus in beta, people went hogwild while they could.
3) Irrelevant either way, since by higher levels he won't be the only one with that kind of money and EVERYONE will have upgraded keeps, golemns, etc.
4) This is an issue that's not exclusive to GW2, it exists in every MMO ever. People have always bought gold, it used to just be from gold sellers, and when they do they then turn around and buy overpowered equipment and dominate PvP. If you figure out how to fix this, be sure to let developers know!
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Except we're not talking about two people. Analogies aren't very good at explaining these types of things. You can mass defend that supply camp all you want, the other team will sneak by and take the keep. You can defend that keep all you want, someone will take all your supply camps. Unless you plan to be everywhere doing everything it won't amount to much.
You miss the point. That's all stuff I can do solo. What can you do solo if you don't buy gems? Nothing if I use gold for upgrades. You would have a hard time trying to kill the supply caravan by yourself if I upgraded to guards.
Everything you're doing at your supply camp, some other rich goon will be doing at another. It will give advantage for the first few moments, I won't even say days, until people can afford siege of their own. Its a team environment where numbers win, not one guy with a bank account.
Again, we're still on the assumption that the gold for gems will be available at full price from day one. I'm sure Anet has taken it into account, we'll just have to see if they chose to act on it and how.
Edit: And during the first few weeks there will be no data from which to rank servers to begin with. It will be a gamble on all fronts. You may be on a smaller server pitted against two of the largest and have population issues or any other number of hinderances. Judging advantage in the first few weeks based off of a days early income doesn't make sense to me.
You are basically trying to say that a bunch of people can counter me. However this proves my point, I have as much impact solo as group of players do. Now add me to a group of dedicated PvPer and see how many it takes to counter us. Like the one example this weekend where 6 of us held off 50+ at a keep. Remember there are caps for WvWvW, if we can hold off that many people it frees up the rest of the people on the map.
Yea learn to explain what your trying to say... When I read Pay To Win I almost didnt get gw2 jsut from speculation and reading that title . theres alot of lazy ppl in the world that will probably do the same when they see a title like that.
Except we're not talking about two people. Analogies aren't very good at explaining these types of things. You can mass defend that supply camp all you want, the other team will sneak by and take the keep. You can defend that keep all you want, someone will take all your supply camps. Unless you plan to be everywhere doing everything it won't amount to much.
You miss the point. That's all stuff I can do solo. What can you do solo if you don't buy gems? Nothing if I use gold for upgrades. You would have a hard time trying to kill the supply caravan by yourself if I upgraded to guards.
Everything you're doing at your supply camp, some other rich goon will be doing at another. It will give advantage for the first few moments, I won't even say days, until people can afford siege of their own. Its a team environment where numbers win, not one guy with a bank account.
Again, we're still on the assumption that the gold for gems will be available at full price from day one. I'm sure Anet has taken it into account, we'll just have to see if they chose to act on it and how.
Edit: And during the first few weeks there will be no data from which to rank servers to begin with. It will be a gamble on all fronts. You may be on a smaller server pitted against two of the largest and have population issues or any other number of hinderances. Judging advantage in the first few weeks based off of a days early income doesn't make sense to me.
You are basically trying to say that a bunch of people can counter me. However this proves my point, I have as much impact solo as group of players do. Now add me to a group of dedicated PvPer and see how many it takes to counter us. Like the one example this weekend where 6 of us held off 50+ at a keep. Remember there are caps for WvWvW, if we can hold off that many people it frees up the rest of the people on the map.
Explain to me when you plan to be alone for all this? That isn't how WvW works. You won't be able to take a point solo so no one will try to attack you solo. You will fight groups, groups will counter your solo defense easily. If we're talking theoreticals, you could be sitting at a ballista at your newly aquired supply point and I could hit you with a trebuchet from three times your range.
No one will attack a keep or supply point you overly defend. They will either camp you inside your hidey hole while they take over the rest of the map, or ignore you completely. Yes you can do it, no it doesn't serve a purpose. People were not playing the game to win. If you and six others decided to camp a keep I wanted to take, I would rally my guys, buy a catapult or trebuchet, and take down the wall away from your defenses. There is no defensive siege that can match the max range of offensive siege. Once the walls are compromised your game of 6v50 is over.
Again, you're claiming inbalance based off what is possible, not what is logical. Everything you claim to be able to do because you can afford it can be affordably trumped without gem store gold. You have no catchall from buying gold. It guarantees you no victory. If 50 people are dumb enough to let you hold them off, thats not an advantage of money, thats an advantage of wit.
Except we're not talking about two people. Analogies aren't very good at explaining these types of things. You can mass defend that supply camp all you want, the other team will sneak by and take the keep. You can defend that keep all you want, someone will take all your supply camps. Unless you plan to be everywhere doing everything it won't amount to much.
You miss the point. That's all stuff I can do solo. What can you do solo if you don't buy gems? Nothing if I use gold for upgrades. You would have a hard time trying to kill the supply caravan by yourself if I upgraded to guards.
Everything you're doing at your supply camp, some other rich goon will be doing at another. It will give advantage for the first few moments, I won't even say days, until people can afford siege of their own. Its a team environment where numbers win, not one guy with a bank account.
Again, we're still on the assumption that the gold for gems will be available at full price from day one. I'm sure Anet has taken it into account, we'll just have to see if they chose to act on it and how.
Edit: And during the first few weeks there will be no data from which to rank servers to begin with. It will be a gamble on all fronts. You may be on a smaller server pitted against two of the largest and have population issues or any other number of hinderances. Judging advantage in the first few weeks based off of a days early income doesn't make sense to me.
You are basically trying to say that a bunch of people can counter me. However this proves my point, I have as much impact solo as group of players do. Now add me to a group of dedicated PvPer and see how many it takes to counter us. Like the one example this weekend where 6 of us held off 50+ at a keep. Remember there are caps for WvWvW, if we can hold off that many people it frees up the rest of the people on the map.
Here's the problem Atlan. There's nothing you can do buy buying tons and tons of gold that I can't do earning it naturally. The costs of any of the items that require gold simply are not that high.
MAYBE for the first 1-2 phases of WvW, it would make a difference. I'll bow to you there. But once a decent number of players can make a couple gold an hour (hell, even 20 silver an hour or so) or more just logging in and goofing around, then the advantage of the goldbuyer becomes nil.
It is disconcerning. Even if they don't spend 400+$ on the game to transfer to ingame money. The influx in money will effect a large amount of the WvW gameplay. If you had a server with more people at launch, lets say... 20-30 more people on average per battleground you would expect them to win, or at least have a better chance to. While the smaller server is defending towers or keeps from the increase in numbers the high populated server can send small groups of people to get supply camps and secure the rest of the map.
Now add in a rich person on the lower populated side.
Things change quite a bit. Especially if there's teamwork involved.
The rich guy can orchestrate seige units to defend towers and keeps that would otherwise be difficult to obtain, or considered excessive amount of money to spend on a simple tower. This frees up some of their population to go and attack other places, with seige units they are easily able to afford due to the influx of money caused by gem to gold transfers.
While I do like the idea of a lower population server being able to steal victory from an overpopulated one. To do so by simply throwing real money at the game and suddenly getting powerful is not the way to do so. While it is a "tactic", tactics should involve thought, not mindless spending.
With that said I think it would be ideal to have the seige engines requiring badges of honor and not be purchasable with ingame gold. This would prevent any possible way of gem to cash effecting WvW. Which would probably adjust the price of the golems down from 40 badges.
Initially the badges would be sparse and would make the seiges difficult with out rams, but as someone in this thread mentioned it's easy to wrack up the badges. Especially if you do get a hold of a seige engine.
This would also solve an issue with rushing stonemist castle in the opening minutes of the game as you wouldn't have an excessive amount of badges to seige it.
Which if the matches do last for a couple weeks instead of 24hours this would be ideal. Every 2 week battle would be a fresh start. With out the rich teams remaining rich and the poor teams remaining poor. It will be about skills and tactics instead of previous victories making your next battle easier.
Just a thought.
Also the armor/weapons bought with badges of honor could use a different medium or method of purchasing that wouldn't be influenced by gem to gold transfers.
It is disconcerning. Even if they don't spend 400+$ on the game to transfer to ingame money. The influx in money will effect a large amount of the WvW gameplay. If you had a server with more people at launch, lets say... 20-30 more people on average per battleground you would expect them to win, or at least have a better chance to. While the smaller server is defending towers or keeps from the increase in numbers the high populated server can send small groups of people to get supply camps and secure the rest of the map.
Now add in a rich person on the lower populated side.
Things change quite a bit. Especially if there's teamwork involved.
The rich guy can orchestrate seige units to defend towers and keeps that would otherwise be difficult to obtain, or considered excessive amount of money to spend on a simple tower. This frees up some of their population to go and attack other places, with seige units they are easily able to afford due to the influx of money caused by gem to gold transfers.
While I do like the idea of a lower population server being able to steal victory from an overpopulated one. To do so by simply throwing real money at the game and suddenly getting powerful is not the way to do so. While it is a "tactic", tactics should involve thought, not mindless spending.
With that said I think it would be ideal to have the seige engines requiring badges of honor and not be purchasable with ingame gold. This would prevent any possible way of gem to cash effecting WvW. Which would probably adjust the price of the golems down from 40 badges.
Initially the badges would be sparse and would make the seiges difficult with out rams, but as someone in this thread mentioned it's easy to wrack up the badges. Especially if you do get a hold of a seige engine.
This would also solve an issue with rushing stonemist castle in the opening minutes of the game as you wouldn't have an excessive amount of badges to seige it.
Which if the matches do last for a couple weeks instead of 24hours this would be ideal. Every 2 week battle would be a fresh start. With out the rich teams remaining rich and the poor teams remaining poor. It will be about skills and tactics instead of previous victories making your next battle easier.
Just a thought.
Also the armor/weapons bought with badges of honor could use a different medium or method of purchasing that wouldn't be influenced by gem to gold transfers.
As I said earlier, you could orchestrate to have people defend this and that, but it can easily be dismantled by other siege. If you put a cannon on your keep, I can kill it with a ballista. Also, the supply mechanic simply will not allow you to mass produce siege equipment at the rate for it to be a giant concern. In the field siege operators are open to attack and vulnerable to being overrun. In keeps you have to strategize getting dolyaks inside the keep and not simply huddling inside producing siege without worry.
Having enough gold to buy blueprints doesn't mean victory if you still don't have the manpower to hold resources to bring them into effect. Also, you guys keep arguing that apparently there is only going to be a single guy buying anything and throwing a 3 server battle completely into the favor of his.
I did not have any problem to buy siege weapon. Every time I put siege weapon on the battlefield I got back more resources from it then the cost of the siege weapon. It seams most people did not notice that you can use badge of honor to buy siege weapon. Most siege weapon cost 2 badge of honor. killing one player often give you 2 badge of honor.
If you put an arrow cart over a wall and start shooting people that try to take your keep you will probably get a lot of kill so the arrow cart will pay itself. the only siege weapon that is really expensive is the golem and from what I saw it is really not worth to buy that one.
I earned easily 100-200 badges over the weekend, and had no difficulties buying and plopping down any amount of siege without spending a cent on blueprints. If you look at the WvW section of the beta forums, it's filled with complains that siege weapons were too cheap and accessible, not because of people buying gold, but because they were trivial to afford with badges. Considering that I'd easily make 10-20 badges in 5-10 minutes defending a keep against an attack, at the cost of a single blueprint, anybody spending real money on them is being wasteful. I often picked up 2 badges off of a single corpse of someone that I fought moving between objectives or defending a dolyak, which is enough to buy a ram or arrow cart. Along with this, my fellow defenders were also getting similar income by manning their siege weapons or attacking from the walls.
I was buying siege with badges within a few hours of the BWE going live, so it's not even the case that dropping a bunch of money on day 1 will give you a big advantage in siege- you might be able to afford a few more siege weapons if you spend money and nobody on the other server does, for the first 12 hours or so of head-start access, but even then it's a trivial difference. Especially when you consider that someone's got to be extremely careless of their money if they're going to spend a bunch of money for a tiny effect that's going to be wiped out a few hours later when the servers get rematched, since the first several days of WvW are going to be 24hr placement matches.
Explain to me when you plan to be alone for all this? That isn't how WvW works. You won't be able to take a point solo so no one will try to attack you solo. You will fight groups, groups will counter your solo defense easily. If we're talking theoreticals, you could be sitting at a ballista at your newly aquired supply point and I could hit you with a trebuchet from three times your range.
No one will attack a keep or supply point you overly defend. They will either camp you inside your hidey hole while they take over the rest of the map, or ignore you completely. Yes you can do it, no it doesn't serve a purpose. People were not playing the game to win. If you and six others decided to camp a keep I wanted to take, I would rally my guys, buy a catapult or trebuchet, and take down the wall away from your defenses. There is no defensive siege that can match the max range of offensive siege. Once the walls are compromised your game of 6v50 is over.
Again, you're claiming inbalance based off what is possible, not what is logical. Everything you claim to be able to do because you can afford it can be affordably trumped without gem store gold. You have no catchall from buying gold. It guarantees you no victory. If 50 people are dumb enough to let you hold them off, thats not an advantage of money, thats an advantage of wit.
You keep missing the point and go back to P2W.
I never stated P2W. I stated that buying gems at launch gives me a substantial advantage in WvWvW. This advantage gives me the potential to have a big impact on WvWvW. Way more than someone who doesn't.
I upgraded our supply by myself. I didn't need a group to do this. I upgraded walls got and got extra workers. Most people in WvWvW will not be able to afford this for awhile. They might be able to pay for one upgrade and not be able to pay for another for hours. I can keep upgrading any objective we have on the map. This alone is huge advantage.
It isn't a solo game, however we can measure the impact each player has and their potential impact. With Gems mine will be higher than someone without gems at launch.
It seems like this is an arguement against gold influence on WvW rather than the game being P2W.
Firstly, WvW is intended to be imbalanced
Secondly, all gold is generated ingame...so it all already exists.
Third, supply is required to make things...supply can not be bought with real money.
Next, the money earned at later levels should make it easier to make things in WvW
Lastly, within 2 weeks, servers are re-matched up based on their strength.
My question is this: would you be ok with a player who farmed 1000g to win in WvW? If so, then how are you going to tell the difference between a farmer and someone who paid after the game has been out for a month or so?
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
Comments
Im just gonna go out and say we were rich, and had all the upgrades and blueprints we coulda wanted, and then we go double teamed by the other servers and we couldnt do anything with all of that stuff because we had no access to supply camps, we were literally crippled for 4 hours before we could rally and get a camp back and make the slow progress of rebuilding.
Money will make a difference, but it will be no game breaker of any sort
I believe so people think we are talking about supply and demend, we are not, we are talking about the supply resources you get in the WvW that you must use to build EVERYTHING
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
I'll admit it, It's P2W... Only for the first week though. By the end of the BWE I was level 17 on my warrior, level 10 on my thief, and a ranger level 8ish.
My warrior was making more than enough money with attacking keeps and supply camps that I was able to repair and buy a decent amount of siege (20 ballista's hahaha). Keep in mind i bought those with half badges of honor (Loot drops off dead enemies) and spare money. Not to mention I had so much damn Karma if I didn't have enough money to repair i just bought new armor haha...
I spent 20 bucks in the Gem shop too, only cause i know i'll get all that back at launch, so my and my guildies get to start with a buffer zone on money for leveling up woop woop!
Oh any if you want to farm Badges of Honor, get a couple peeps and camp a supply point in the back of enemy territory... With ballista's. We held off a zerg for about 10 minutes. I got 20 BoH, they got about the same too...
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
pay 2 win? spawning many blueprients? tell me how many resource do you need to make the ballista you can affor it yourself? no you can't. and the blueprint cost is almost nothing i can say 1 thing. If anyone crying about the blueprient cost i dont know wheter you are just plain stupid or trolling. (10 silver?)
first GW2 is not a P2W
2nd there will be not gold sellers to have gold sellers you need to have P2W items and as there are no P2W items.
i made 22 gold with out useing any Gems just from PvE and selling items make gold in the game is easy.
All sides will be buying gems more than likely. It will balance out. You can buy twenty rams but without the teamwork to build them it'll benefit no one. The game is supposed to be balancing servers on a daily basis for the first few days to weeks after launch
(per GW2 Blog "We have seen quite a few questions and concerns about world-versus-world match length at launch. We’re expecting to see large population changes across all worlds in the first few weeks as more players get into the game and guilds start getting settled.
To help account for the rapidly fluctuating populations at launch, we’ll initially use the 24-hour match format until world populations settle down a bit and we are able to get some data that will help avoid having two-week-long extreme mismatches. Once most worlds are reliably matching up against worlds of similar strength, we will switch over to playing the two-week-duration match cycles.")
So yes, you can stock up on all you want for the first few days and blow your load early, but winning a 24hour battle won't amount to much and by time the 14day, meaningful battles arrive, people will be able to afford something worth mentioning.
As I said, you may have the funds to buy 5 trebs, but you'll need to rally resources from everyone across multiple supply camps to set them up and defend them. The checks are in place to limit these types of advantages.
Edit: And there will be folks on all servers buying gems, you will have your doppleganger to counter your siege rush.
Exactly this post. It's very easy to get Blueprints though. Most people use arrow carts (yuck), I use well placed ballista's, a Ballista costs me 3 Badges of honor. I can get that in about 30 seconds with a ballista. Considering most fights last about 10 minutes, tally up those badges and free siege.
Only people who don't understand the game mechanics will "P2W". Because in their eyes, that's the only way to do it. Well in mine, I get to levle 5, buy a ballista with silver, then go out and farm Badges of Honor off mindless zergs. Next thing you know, I've got 10 ballista's in my pocket, 2 trebs, and 4 rams. That's right. I got ALL those off Badges of Honor.
The first week is the real P2W area. And the first week I won't evne PvP much. I want to get to level 50ish before I get into it.
Watch me Play 2 Win you fools!
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Did I state in my post P2W anywhere?
What I am saying is, that at launch, buying gems and selling those gems for gold, gives you a substantial advantage. It will greatly increase the potential impact you can have on your servers performance in WvWvW.
Yay your server will be rated higher for the first 24 hours. Then reset, then they will pay again and win for another 24 hours only. Then once things stabilize and the real WvWvW starts (in 2 week matches) the server that paid will realize they didn't gain anything. Now everyone has money (blueprints are cheap once you are higher level) and most people will be at least level 30 with an elite skill and lots of utilities. Try gaining an advantage then.
I think having WvW matches on a 24hour rotation at launch is an excellent idea to reduce the effect of the Cash Shop (in any way) in the game.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
But with that impact being reset every night it won't amount to much of an advantage. Yes, you may drive your team to victory in the one of four zones you're in, but you could easily lose the others, and even then, come the next day, it amounts to nothing.
I do really see your point, there is potential for someone to make a good amount of coin and buy a lot of things out the gate, but I, personally, do not think it will have such a grave impact. Even then, who is to say that the gem store won't start out selling gems at 1copper to the thousand?
We'll just have to see what happens I suppose. I feel that even if someone has twenty trebuchets, they'll be hard pressed to find the hundreds of supplies and cooperation needed to build and defend them. The same goes for keep upgrades. You can order all you want, but if 10 guys sit around camping your dolyaks it'll never get completed.
One thing Atlan, about people begging for gold....
I'd suspect they were people levelling soley via WvW. Right now the drops are not sufficient enough to support you that way. Anet has stated they are aware and are tweaking them. As a player that PVEs quite a bit, I can say I WVW'd a good bit of BWE 2 and never had money issues with a level 25+, but I had a good cash base to start with. i made very little in WvW.
Hopefully that will change.
If I stage a fight between two people and give one person a bat, that he can only use for that fight. The fact that he can only use it for that fight, does not do anything to nullify the advantage it gives him, for that fight.
You do indeed need supply. However gold helps you to get, increase and maintain supply in many ways. First I can increase the amount a supply camp produces. Once that it is done, the supply will have replenished. I can than hire guards to protect the supply camps, dolyaks.
I can also drop an arrow cart or a ballista to defend it. The supply is right beside it and I can build it myself in under a minute. I can also hire extra guards to help protect the camp.
Except we're not talking about two people. Analogies aren't very good at explaining these types of things. You can mass defend that supply camp all you want, the other team will sneak by and take the keep. You can defend that keep all you want, someone will take all your supply camps. Unless you plan to be everywhere doing everything it won't amount to much.
Everything you're doing at your supply camp, some other rich goon will be doing at another. It will give advantage for the first few moments, I won't even say days, until people can afford siege of their own. Its a team environment where numbers win, not one guy with a bank account.
Again, we're still on the assumption that the gold for gems will be available at full price from day one. I'm sure Anet has taken it into account, we'll just have to see if they chose to act on it and how.
Edit: And during the first few weeks there will be no data from which to rank servers to begin with. It will be a gamble on all fronts. You may be on a smaller server pitted against two of the largest and have population issues or any other number of hinderances. Judging advantage in the first few weeks based off of a days early income doesn't make sense to me.
And that ends this thread, the whole WvWvW argument by the op is wrong. Sorry mate but as mentioned by another in this thread, to even go on the theory of buying a ton of blue prints for siege , you still need a ton of suppy, and frankly the things you are telling us would = about 50 unique individuals running supply and building those items. In an average beta run that would be about 30+ min of setup. I doubt it was so huge. Maybe 4 or 5 plus some minors on the ground.
Point being, no way is this pay to win, that whole meaning has been distorted by those that feel they have been jilted in game for they don't have the funds to get something the other guy got. IE the title you so much obviously want.[mod edit]
Some will undoubtedly constantly bring up the argument of gold vs wall upgrades etc is paying to win, but it would be so ONLY and ONLY IF YOU USED REAL LIFE MONEY TO DO SO and there was no other means to do it. Get your definitions correct.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Bigger picture, entirely missed.
The exchange rate was about 50 silver per 100 gems or so, and 4000 gems cost about $50 which means just 100g for Commander title would have cost him about $250, not including what was spend upgrading keeps and buying golems, which means he'd have had to spend probably upwards of $400.
1) He's insane, and not representative of what the greater majority of players will be doing.
2) Not likely to do that in live anyway, since money will get refunded and thus in beta, people went hogwild while they could.
3) Irrelevant either way, since by higher levels he won't be the only one with that kind of money and EVERYONE will have upgraded keeps, golemns, etc.
4) This is an issue that's not exclusive to GW2, it exists in every MMO ever. People have always bought gold, it used to just be from gold sellers, and when they do they then turn around and buy overpowered equipment and dominate PvP. If you figure out how to fix this, be sure to let developers know!
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Yea learn to explain what your trying to say... When I read Pay To Win I almost didnt get gw2 jsut from speculation and reading that title . theres alot of lazy ppl in the world that will probably do the same when they see a title like that.
Explain to me when you plan to be alone for all this? That isn't how WvW works. You won't be able to take a point solo so no one will try to attack you solo. You will fight groups, groups will counter your solo defense easily. If we're talking theoreticals, you could be sitting at a ballista at your newly aquired supply point and I could hit you with a trebuchet from three times your range.
No one will attack a keep or supply point you overly defend. They will either camp you inside your hidey hole while they take over the rest of the map, or ignore you completely. Yes you can do it, no it doesn't serve a purpose. People were not playing the game to win. If you and six others decided to camp a keep I wanted to take, I would rally my guys, buy a catapult or trebuchet, and take down the wall away from your defenses. There is no defensive siege that can match the max range of offensive siege. Once the walls are compromised your game of 6v50 is over.
Again, you're claiming inbalance based off what is possible, not what is logical. Everything you claim to be able to do because you can afford it can be affordably trumped without gem store gold. You have no catchall from buying gold. It guarantees you no victory. If 50 people are dumb enough to let you hold them off, thats not an advantage of money, thats an advantage of wit.
Here's the problem Atlan. There's nothing you can do buy buying tons and tons of gold that I can't do earning it naturally. The costs of any of the items that require gold simply are not that high.
MAYBE for the first 1-2 phases of WvW, it would make a difference. I'll bow to you there. But once a decent number of players can make a couple gold an hour (hell, even 20 silver an hour or so) or more just logging in and goofing around, then the advantage of the goldbuyer becomes nil.
It is disconcerning. Even if they don't spend 400+$ on the game to transfer to ingame money. The influx in money will effect a large amount of the WvW gameplay. If you had a server with more people at launch, lets say... 20-30 more people on average per battleground you would expect them to win, or at least have a better chance to. While the smaller server is defending towers or keeps from the increase in numbers the high populated server can send small groups of people to get supply camps and secure the rest of the map.
Now add in a rich person on the lower populated side.
Things change quite a bit. Especially if there's teamwork involved.
The rich guy can orchestrate seige units to defend towers and keeps that would otherwise be difficult to obtain, or considered excessive amount of money to spend on a simple tower. This frees up some of their population to go and attack other places, with seige units they are easily able to afford due to the influx of money caused by gem to gold transfers.
While I do like the idea of a lower population server being able to steal victory from an overpopulated one. To do so by simply throwing real money at the game and suddenly getting powerful is not the way to do so. While it is a "tactic", tactics should involve thought, not mindless spending.
With that said I think it would be ideal to have the seige engines requiring badges of honor and not be purchasable with ingame gold. This would prevent any possible way of gem to cash effecting WvW. Which would probably adjust the price of the golems down from 40 badges.
Initially the badges would be sparse and would make the seiges difficult with out rams, but as someone in this thread mentioned it's easy to wrack up the badges. Especially if you do get a hold of a seige engine.
This would also solve an issue with rushing stonemist castle in the opening minutes of the game as you wouldn't have an excessive amount of badges to seige it.
Which if the matches do last for a couple weeks instead of 24hours this would be ideal. Every 2 week battle would be a fresh start. With out the rich teams remaining rich and the poor teams remaining poor. It will be about skills and tactics instead of previous victories making your next battle easier.
Just a thought.
Also the armor/weapons bought with badges of honor could use a different medium or method of purchasing that wouldn't be influenced by gem to gold transfers.
As I said earlier, you could orchestrate to have people defend this and that, but it can easily be dismantled by other siege. If you put a cannon on your keep, I can kill it with a ballista. Also, the supply mechanic simply will not allow you to mass produce siege equipment at the rate for it to be a giant concern. In the field siege operators are open to attack and vulnerable to being overrun. In keeps you have to strategize getting dolyaks inside the keep and not simply huddling inside producing siege without worry.
Having enough gold to buy blueprints doesn't mean victory if you still don't have the manpower to hold resources to bring them into effect. Also, you guys keep arguing that apparently there is only going to be a single guy buying anything and throwing a 3 server battle completely into the favor of his.
I did not have any problem to buy siege weapon. Every time I put siege weapon on the battlefield I got back more resources from it then the cost of the siege weapon. It seams most people did not notice that you can use badge of honor to buy siege weapon. Most siege weapon cost 2 badge of honor. killing one player often give you 2 badge of honor.
If you put an arrow cart over a wall and start shooting people that try to take your keep you will probably get a lot of kill so the arrow cart will pay itself. the only siege weapon that is really expensive is the golem and from what I saw it is really not worth to buy that one.
I earned easily 100-200 badges over the weekend, and had no difficulties buying and plopping down any amount of siege without spending a cent on blueprints. If you look at the WvW section of the beta forums, it's filled with complains that siege weapons were too cheap and accessible, not because of people buying gold, but because they were trivial to afford with badges. Considering that I'd easily make 10-20 badges in 5-10 minutes defending a keep against an attack, at the cost of a single blueprint, anybody spending real money on them is being wasteful. I often picked up 2 badges off of a single corpse of someone that I fought moving between objectives or defending a dolyak, which is enough to buy a ram or arrow cart. Along with this, my fellow defenders were also getting similar income by manning their siege weapons or attacking from the walls.
I was buying siege with badges within a few hours of the BWE going live, so it's not even the case that dropping a bunch of money on day 1 will give you a big advantage in siege- you might be able to afford a few more siege weapons if you spend money and nobody on the other server does, for the first 12 hours or so of head-start access, but even then it's a trivial difference. Especially when you consider that someone's got to be extremely careless of their money if they're going to spend a bunch of money for a tiny effect that's going to be wiped out a few hours later when the servers get rematched, since the first several days of WvW are going to be 24hr placement matches.
You keep missing the point and go back to P2W.
I never stated P2W. I stated that buying gems at launch gives me a substantial advantage in WvWvW. This advantage gives me the potential to have a big impact on WvWvW. Way more than someone who doesn't.
I upgraded our supply by myself. I didn't need a group to do this. I upgraded walls got and got extra workers. Most people in WvWvW will not be able to afford this for awhile. They might be able to pay for one upgrade and not be able to pay for another for hours. I can keep upgrading any objective we have on the map. This alone is huge advantage.
It isn't a solo game, however we can measure the impact each player has and their potential impact. With Gems mine will be higher than someone without gems at launch.
It seems like this is an arguement against gold influence on WvW rather than the game being P2W.
Firstly, WvW is intended to be imbalanced
Secondly, all gold is generated ingame...so it all already exists.
Third, supply is required to make things...supply can not be bought with real money.
Next, the money earned at later levels should make it easier to make things in WvW
Lastly, within 2 weeks, servers are re-matched up based on their strength.
My question is this: would you be ok with a player who farmed 1000g to win in WvW? If so, then how are you going to tell the difference between a farmer and someone who paid after the game has been out for a month or so?
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2