Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
The Holy Trinity of MMOs is Alive and Well
Mephster
Member Posts: 1,188
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the holy trinity of mmos. It has been this way since the end of time. Tank, healer and dps. Millions of players love the holy trinity of mmos, it is a fact. Want proof ? Wow, Aion, Lotro, Rift, Everquest games and many other rpg mmos, that is the proof. Players have been enjoying this playstyle for over 10 years and not a single time have we ever heard the screams and complaints of players that the holy trinity is broken. Want to know why noone ever complains , because nothing is wrong with having the tank, healer and dps set up. You would think if the holy trinity was so bad players would be screaming by the top of their lungs to change it, right ? Well it hasn't changed one bit. Players still love the holy trinity and will for many more years to come.
So now all of a sudden ArenaNet is making Guild Wars 2 and now because they are not using the holy trinity, it is broken! WTF ? Seriously ? Tell me how many action mmos which is exactly what Guild Wars 2 is, have been successful without the holy trinity. Hmmmm ? Come on now I know you can think of one right ? You can't can you, because the mmos without the holy trinity do not work. They fail. Infact, since Champions Online I can't think of a mmo that has been developed without the holy trinity that has succeeded. You guys are living proof that the holy trinity is alive, well and the majority loves it that way. So the next time you hear or read about how the holy trinity is broken all you have to do is look at yourselves as living proof that the trinity of mmos is alive and well.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
Comments
Is it that they love it or is it that they've not been introduced to a better alternative?
It's a game mechanic that is just a means to an end. It isn't a magical formula that causes everything to work.
I don't mind it, but I know for sure that it isn't the only solution to the problem. A little bit of variety never hurt anyone and variety is what MMOs seriously lack.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with variety but I do not believe that the holy trinity is the issue of why mmos are so bad. If anything I would love to see better class balance within the holy trinity along with more interesting skills.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Horses has been the method of transportation for ages before the introduction of Cars, was Horses broken. It was just an better alternative. It happens, stuff gets improved, it gets changed.
Just because the MMO genre currently only have the Holy Trinity, it doesn't mean that there is no better alternative or the ability to change them into something better.
"You are like a frog in a well, there is a whole lot more sky than what you can see from within a well" - taken from a chinese proverb.
Just because Holy Trinity is whats available, doesn't mean that its correct or the best method of doing a certain thing.
If GW2 succeeded, then that will become the first MMO game to date that have succeeded without the Holy Trinity, then 10 years down the line, with more and more MMO being developed without the Holy Trinity, then a 10 years older Me, will be able to list all the games that have succeeded without the trinity.
What you are proposing for us to name a game without the holy trinity is the same as a person asking the first person to fly to name a person whom have flew before and that its impossible to fly in a tin can.
Guess what, after years of innovation, we have airplanes, Oh and guess what, someone flew to outerspace. Oh and guess what, someone said that we can never break the sound barrier on land, but i guess nothing is impossible until someone gives up.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
The problem with the Trinity is, using Rift as an example, is in groups people are pidgeon-holed into Tank, healer DPS - there is no variance when doing high lvl dungeons. It gets boring after a while playing the same roles, over and over. The trinity is not broken it is just plain dull and makes one MMO feel like another.
It is nice that a game, like GW2, is out there that shows YOU DO NOT NEED the trinity to make the game work. I think people have been pushed into the Trinity since it is a crutch that MMO's producers got caught in. It is nice to see a game devloper come out with a game where you do not get pidgeonholed. It is a breath of fresh air.
To the OP, ever hear the term, 'I think thou dost protest too much!'
Here in the United States 92% of the people love vanilla because of its simplicity and it tastes really good. The same way it is in mmos. MMO players love the trinity because of it's simplicity and they are good at it. You see the catch ? Simple and good. There is no doubt about it that the majority mmo players like to keep it simple but good. Sure we can have varity but vanilla rules the ice cream business just like the holy trinity rules mmo and will continue to do so. Just like vanilla WoW did!
Ice cream reference - http://www.herworldplus.com/food/updates/food-updates-worlds-most-popular-ice-cream-flavours
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
UO, EQ1, and DAoC?
Wait, that can't be right, mixing up sandbox and themepark; no one could possibly like both.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I thought you would comment on the ice cream...what flavor is pink?
There is nothing wrong with liking the Trinity, but don't try to stop innovation when it doesn't suit you.
There will always be Holy Trinity Games, just like there will always be Vanilla ice cream. But you can never stop people inventing new Ice Cream flavors to try and replace the Vanilla Dominance in the ice cream world in the United States.
Just like its not wrong for players to challenge the Trinity. If you like to heal, there will always be WOW available for you. As well as every single other MMO available in the current market. Even TESO have the trinity.
But when the world is ready to change into the Non Trinity MMO formulas, just like if the United States suddenly have a craving for Chocolate Ice Cream, its also not wrong for them to do so. Its just the way the world works, if someone better comes along, the old will be replaced by the New.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I personally hate being locked into set roles. Giving everyone the ability to do it all is the way to go, in my opinion. Active dodging in general is also a plus. I love that shit.
With GW2's way of doing things, it's pretty much an "everyone for themselves" mentally until someone goes down, then you rush over to revive. It's nice when you don't have to be 100% in charge of a certain aspect of a fight, and it lets you just focus on fun - dodging around, attacking from ranged, get in close, do some melee, dodge around some more, heal yourself from afar. Plays more like a co-op mode from a console game, which I've come to prefer over time.
That being said, this is only from watching videos and I haven't participated in the BWE's, so my preconceptions of the game might not be entirely as I am thinking, and might not control the best, but still, I think it's a step in the right direction.
They're not removing the trinity entirely, they're just making it less of a hassle so you can bring anyone into a dungeon and you all just split the responsibilities of all three and skill your way through.
Sounds much more simple, fast-paced and fun to me compared to looking for specific roles, and it makes it so that if the population were to dwindle, that won't be a big deal 'cause there's not gonna be a massive lack of tanks or healers because everyone can heal if they want, and take aggro and dodge around,etc.
Not saying the Holy Trinity is wrong, or dead, but it's very much an outdated concept that has been in desperate need of improvement for the longest time. Just no one has had the brains and ability to put forth a solid alternative. Possibly until now (well, the end of the month)... possibly it's still not there in the best form. We'll soon see how things turn out in the long run.
Possibly because threat mechanics simplify a lot of things about the average boss encounter. "Easier on the devs" has rather a enormous effect on the final designs we see.
"Why can't I even dye my armor?" "We uh, hardcoded the item colors in the models. Back in '03-'04; we were in a hurry. We'll fix that in only seven years, kinda, a little bit."
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Actually it kinda is a magical formula, if we define the trinity by the root of what makes it work ("a teamplay game everyone takes on a unique and important role".)
I'm pretty sure you can't name a single interesting teamplay game which was interesting without some form of the trinity. The alternative is for everyone to be nameless, generic footsoldiers with no ability variety, and that's incredibly boring.
Even in L4D, a game with almost no customization, you have a single critical role in the form of players saving teammates (who frequently become completely helpless and incapacitated.) You also have lighter roles in the form of long/short ranged weapons, and who takes point (the "tank" essentially,) but it's that critical "savior" role which makes the glue of L4D's teamplay work.
So games certainly don't need EQ1's specific, original version of the trinity. They don't need to be exactly 3 roles (as trinity implies.) But they do need unique important role(s) to be interesting. Games without roles have very uninteresting teamplay (and even L4D would be considerably improved to define 1 or 2 additional critical roles...like if each character had unique skills, or if any character could carry explosives which made tank-killing particularly easy but limited their other weapon choice.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What you are forgetting is that It might be boring to Watch, but its not Boring to Play.
When you don't have a specific role , the Spectator don't know whats going on, don't know who to focus their attention to.
But as a player, you will be busy playing the game, trying to avoid fire, trying to dodge, trying to tank when close, trying to dps when in range, trying to heal when hurt and trying to control when skill is available.
In an Game without Set Specific Roles for a specific Class, not only will you be able to get 5 soldiers, you can become a commander and assign roles to those 5 soldiers. And because each soldier can become any role you choose, there will be no shortage of soldiers to replace the original 5 that you had.
As a team leader, I can assign 2 players, lets say Sam and Bob, as Savior Roles on Monday, then On Tuesday, I can assign them the Dps roles, then on Wednesday, they wanted to try Controling the Mob so thats what I can assign them to do. If they are tired of Controling, they can talk to their teammates and someone else takes over.
That is team play, thats fun and exciting, not only will I no longer have to log into my Healer Alt, or Tank Alt, I am a Healer, Tank, and DPS. The trinity is in me, I am the Trinity.
Thats the new trinity.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Eve, WoW, and Vendetta?
You're right; they are alive and well
On topic:
When I first heard of the idea of an MMORPG, it was around the late 90's. I had dabbled in MUDs previously, and had been an avid level-designer in Lode Runner. The concept of a massive, virtual world where people carried on virtual lives, becoming virtual heroes, praying to virtual deities, or living as humble traders was absolutely fascinating. I found the concepts of Hit Points, Experience Points, and Levels to be somewhat kludgy; a necessary evil.
From the perspective of game design, I can see how having three archetypal roles makes for good balance (rock-paper-scissors, after all). From the perspective of world design, I think it's time to move past archaiac concepts such as DPS, tank, healer as they relate to classical mmos and begin to focus on what makes these worlds truly fascinating; that they exist as virtual places, complete with history, heroes, cities, constructs, and that they are populated by human players.
I'm not interested in what a Hit Point or an Experience Point is; I am interested in things like weather, topography, history, and the food chain for crying out loud. If I could I would totally break the concept of what a classical MMORPG has been in terms of game design; it's not about invisible numbers or stats, it's about the experience of being in the world itself. Second Life had the right idea, but it was too unbounded; it wasn't a game. A Tale In The Desert looks like it may have been a step in the right direction. Then came WoW, which was really an extension of Warcraft III into a persistent, character-focused world. The problem is that it carried the same mechanics from Warcraft III into the MMORPG genre, and since it did so well people took it for granted that those mechanics must be necessary for a successful game. This is not even remotely true.
I want to get back to what made those MUDs so interesting back in the day; that elusive thing called immersion. Kind of a buzz-word these days, like Love. Start from basic concepts, and the game mechanics tend to create themselves. It may sound simplistic, or idealistic, but I've seen it happen. There is a wealth of untapped potential in this generation of gamers, all it takes is a little imagination. Any world that needs to distract a player from what is really going on by adding things like Hit Points or Damage Per Second is missing the point. In that sense, there is no such thing as an ideal virtual world, however I sense the genre itself has barely begun to scratch the surface of what is possible.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
You really dislike GW2 that much, don't you? I don't think I've seen a single post from you that was even neutral about that game. Oh, well, I'll bite....
The trinity is broken in many ways IMO. Ask any MMO player if they like sitting for an hour or two LFG Need Healer!!! And then ask them how they feel when the healer they do get isn't very good and they end up wiping because of that. Ask them if they like the complete lack of choice in grouping - if they like having to run an alt that isn't their preferred character because there are already enough DPSs in the group. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of players can't stand those aspects of the "Holy Trinity". Hell, I'd be willing to bet that YOU don't like those aspects. And if you do, you are a rarity.
And, the reason that people play the games you mentioned is because there aren't very many real choices if they want to play an MMORPG. Just because they are choosing to play those games, and those games utilize the trinity, doesn't mean that they are playing these games because of the trinity. The trinity is looked at more as a necessary evil than a preference.
Then along comes Anet making a game that tries to do away with those issues. They are trying to give players a real choice in how they play and who they play with. WTF is wrong with that? Why all the hate toward them because of that?
And, of course, if you really do love the trinity, there are plenty of games out there that offer it. Enjoy them, and I'll go enjoy GW2.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
If you have that type of game, teamplay feels completely flat. The game might still be fun, but there will be no point to grouping.
Whereas with role definition you feel like you couldn't accomplish the encounter on your own and that you have to rely on others' strengths to offset your weakness (while you apply your own strength to offset theirs.)
Spectating doesn't even enter into it.
I think you're under the impression that the trinity requires static roles, when the specific example from my prior post showed how roles exist dynamically (in L4D there's not one static "savior" player; everyone dynamically becomes a "savior" when their teammate gets grabbed and needs saving.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well since you enjoy the holy trinity then you should be happy. There are multitudes of mmos that have it.
I'm just glad that we are getting alternatives to it.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
What kind of players? The MMOer or the converted Console gamer? I don't mind looking for tanks and or healers. Only those with 15 mins to play have a problem with having to do some work in these games.
Even I don't have all the time in the world to play a real mmo these days but i understand that. I take my time and enjoy the time i have to play when i play. Those that want on the fly action will want something different. Enter just about every MMO made in the last 5 years.
And GW2 will be no different. Offering a system that caters so much to insta action that they made it possible to group with everyone and anytime and successes. Fast and easy lvling to cap and after a month or 2 you'll be right back on the forums looking for the next game to blow through.
What's the difference? I owned Nintendo's famicom, and later the original X-Box, however I also played computer games during that time. Now I definitely consider myself the soulful spend-decades-in-a-single-game type (9+ years playing Vendetta weekly if not daily). Maybe in my next life I'll breeze through dozens of games more easily. I never found the perfect game, but I found one that was good enough and decided to stay. It's interesting, watching the things that can happen over the years.
As far as the waiting thing, there was this old MUD, I think it may have been called Avatar, actually, where there was a Ranger class that could build campfires. It would help others to regain hp/mana more quickly while resting, in the case where a group member had to do a corpse run (remember those?). It became one of those little things that somehow made the world more believable. You would be asleep, couldn't "see" anything in your environment, and have to trust the Ranger to wake you up when it was time.
Having dependency on other players is good, as is having specialized roles, even ones that change over the course of gameplay. Is three the magic number? No. It's more about the fact that it was possible to build a campfire than the fact that there was a "class" that had the "ability", if you catch my drift.
Anyway, some good things in this thread. It's been an interesting read so far.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
You don't mind sitting for an hour or more in game not doing what you want to do - and a lot of times not doing anything - while you are looking for the "right" player? I do. I have a job and a family to take care of. I don't have the time to waste in game not doing what I want to do. Considering the average age of MMO players is close to my age, I'd be willing to bet that most gamers are in the same boat as me.
I've played GW1 for over 6 years now and am still enjoying it with mainly one character. From what I've seen and experienced with GW2, I expect to be playing that one for a similar length of time. The problem with your last statement is that you seem to think leveling to cap is the expectation in order to play "end game". It's not with this game. Hopefully, those of us who "get it" will be able to show those poor souls who rush to cap that it wasn't necessary for them to do so. There is a lot to do in this game at every level.
And on top of that, who said it was easy? Have you played it at all? While some things were admittedly very easy in the game, there is a lot there that isn't.
Also, it's a game! Why the hell should I have to "work" in it????? I spend all day doing things I don't necessarily want to do, but I get paid for it so that's ok. Why should I spend my precious entertainment time and money doing things I don't want to do?
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!