let me get this straight

theowner1 · August 2005

Ive been reading up on DDO and just answer if i understand this is right or not, yes or no will be good, details better.

1. no pvp

2. no crafting

3. all quests/dungeons are instanced, you get your quest in town, when you leave you enter the dungeon, when your done, you go back to town. IE no exploring, no excitment, no running into non party members.

4. no mounts, houses, guild halls

5. have not read anything about guilds

6. no xp for mobs

7. solo almost impossible (considering you only get xp for quests and most quests are group dependant)

8. no pvp

i was really hyped about DDO, i used to play pnp, it was so great because every game was unique and exciting and you never knew what might happen, plus if a party member pissed me off i could steal from him when he wasnt watching (rogue ftw).

i feel the only saving grace for this game is if the make dungeons completely random generated, so every crawl was unique every time.

other then that the game will be really boring really fast, think Guild Wars without the pvp and crafting.

Dark and LIght has taken #1 place and DDO takes a back seat in my opinion.

Volkmar · August 2005

even if you asked for a simple "yes/No" answer, i will elaborate a bit more.

1: yes, there is no pvp in DDO. As PvP has never been a great part of the PnP game, it isn't in the DDO experience.

2: yes, there is no crafting in DDO. Same reason.

3:Basically correct, but there are more cities than the starting ones and there are wilderness areas to explore just outside Stormreach for example. In addition, most of the time you do not enter directly the dungeon but find yourself in Wilderness areas surrounding the dungeon, so the possibilities to explore, according to Devs, its still there. They even said there will be some more "public" hunting areas where you might meet other adventurers you didn't enter with. Also the travel from and to this areas is not uneventful, raids, bandit ambushes and other situation can happen while you travel, they just cut the uneventful travel and plunge you right in the action. Think of it like when the GM says "and for three days you travelled trough the jungle...."

4: no houses, no mounts. About guild halls, most probably no also.

5: guilds will be in the game and there was even hint from the devs that the various organizations of Eberron will want them to be affiliated. so you can potentially affiliate your guild with some of those.

Xundau
There will be guild-like player organizations in the game. Not sure if they will actually be called "guilds" in the game, and I can't go into any of the details right now, but yes, they will be in.

Ken Troop
There will be guilds in D&D Online. One of the great things about Eberron, the new WOTC world setting in which D&D Online is based, is that it is rich in intrigue amongst very powerful organizations - think of them as high-magic fantasy corporations. These organizations want to form alliances with guilds of players to serve their own ends, so not only do guilds in D&D Online serve the essential purpose of allowing a large group of people to form bonds and coordinate adventures, they also are the main path through which players can interact with and gain benefits from the various organizations...[more]

and link:
http://pc.gamezone.com/news/04_19_05_02_05PM.htm

6: correct. you get Xp just for completing quests and missions, not for killing mobs, so no farming, no camping and a more quest oriented environment.

7:the devs stated Solo is still viable especially at lower levels. They also said at higher level it is almost impossible. DDO is focues on Small groups, like the PnP is. Frankly, as the D&D rules are made this do not surprise me. Some kind of heavy warrior, some kind of healer and some kind of trap detector/disarm are kinda always required when you go in dungeons. And classes have very specific roles in D&D.. no way anybody can be a trap detector but Rogues (and Scouts but this won't be in the game), healers are only Cleric and Druid (and clerics were better in the system, but with spellpoints they are prolly the same.. oh... no druids in DDO, so we are stuck with clerics for healing) and for heavy warrior you got Barbarian, fighter or paladin.. maybe ranger in a pinch.

8: yes, see n1

Finally, no, dungeons won't be random generated. Not completely, they will all handcrafted by their level designers. some elements in the dungeons can be random, like trap placements, encounter placements and so on. Also they revealed you will return numerous times in the same dungeon for different missions ,but the dungeon might have changed over time. Like the first time you get in the kobold fortress to rescue the noble's son, you take them by sursprise. But when you return for slaying the kobold leader, they are waiting for you and much more aggressive.

Also some quests will be repeatable, while others are one shot affairs that opens up other stuff.

I had the impression they are concentrating ten folds on content and great stories to tell and the instancing give them this possibilities, but, as the devs said, they are doing 1 DD game, not a thousands and they can't please everybody.

I feel their approach strongly mimic the PnP dynamic, but without the human GM of course.

Have a nice day

Kem0sabe · August 2005

Considering how fast people go trough content these days, the major problem i forsee for D&DO is that the quests will run out a few months after release, even with monthly aditions to the content, there just wont be enough content to keep players from geting bored out of their minds, as questing is the only activity in the game, no crafting, no pvp, no alternative time sinks, so there will only be questing, and the montlhy updates most of the time are not the best solution, like we saw in AC2, they promissed monthly updates, but we ended up geting sub standart content with little to no quality.

Im excited about D&DO, but im afraid the fun factor will dry up after a couple of months playing, mindless hack and slash only goes so far, the game needs more play options other than forced questing.

FreddyNoNose · August 2005

Originally posted by theowner1

6. no xp for mobs
XP for quest completion AND in some quests you will lose XP for killing mobs. You may also fail some quests for causing any mob kills and others if you get noticed by mobs. They want a different dynamic going on.

rumandmonkey · August 2005

You say PnP has no PvP, but I used to play when I was younger, and I remember a certain quest when we were all scattered in different rooms, and my one friend, decided to go from room to room and kill everyone. We finaly teemed up and destroyed him, but its unpredictable things like that which made the game so fun.

psychooys · August 2005

out of all the things you said that make the game bad, the only thing i can say that is a definate flaw is the no crafting system, and the mp system... besides that it looks like it will be TOEE MMO style, which personally sounds totally kick ass.

Creoleman · August 2005

To comment on the solo play (or seeming lack thereof,) they have said that you can solo most quests, but a single rogue is going to have a hard time getting through a quest if their hide in shadows fails and a small company of orcs sees you standing in the corner, and this will result in his getting a serious faceplant in the cold cobblestone or dirty cave floor.

So, while one can solo most things, the game is designed for a small adventuring troop to go in and explore. So that each one of the classes (rogue, fighter, cleric, sorcerer) will complement the other and they can get through the quest alive and complete the quest.

uncus · August 2005

Volkmar - Well Answered!

The only thing I DON'T like about the setup that Turbine has for DDO is the lack of crafting - I've always enjoyed playing a Cleric/Mage with a touch of alchemy and found it fun gathering components for scroll inks and potions. It was always a side quest to whatever mission [or random roamings] we were doing, but it added a lot to the "fun factor".

ex - The fighter trying to kill something in one blow [severed head] so that other parts were harvestable. Killing a displacer beast with blunt weapons to get a whole skin for making a robe of displacement. Jars and jars of giant ant blood, bee venom, scorpian venom, etc. We had a small bag of holding almost full with my alchemy kit, the ranger turned cleric's portable shrine, and 100's of arrows and bolts to be envenomed/ensorcelled.

Crafting would add A LOT to the game!

psychooys · August 2005

I totally agree, no crafting in DDO is really the thing that makes me wonder. Especially no crafting magical items O.O seems like really weird to me.

Creoleman · August 2005

I don't believe that they've ruled out crafting in the future, just that they weren't including it in the intial release of the game. I mean, D&D practically invented crafting magic items, weapons and the ilk so there would be no reason to suspect that they would not include crafting in the future. It's just not something that they are including for right now.

uncus · August 2005

Well, the bummer is in taking feats - I would take scribe scroll and brew potion right away if they were available. Now I'll have to be careful to take another feat that will still be useful at higher levels [was thinking still spell, but since level cap, I'll probably go with silent instead].

Anybody see the most recent update? Level is now capped at 10 at release! They're adding mini-feats every 1/4 level to stretch out the time per level but still give you a sense of accomplishment. Sorry, I don't have the link to the article, but it is from the Dev's mouth...

Batavier · August 2005

Originally posted by theowner1

Ive been reading up on DDO and just answer if i understand this is right or not, yes or no will be good, details better.
1. no pvp
2. no crafting
3. all quests/dungeons are instanced, you get your quest in town, when you leave you enter the dungeon, when your done, you go back to town. IE no exploring, no excitment, no running into non party members.
4. no mounts, houses, guild halls
5. have not read anything about guilds
6. no xp for mobs
7. solo almost impossible (considering you only get xp for quests and most quests are group dependant)
8. no pvp
i was really hyped about DDO, i used to play pnp, it was so great because every game was unique and exciting and you never knew what might happen, plus if a party member pissed me off i could steal from him when he wasnt watching (rogue ftw).
i feel the only saving grace for this game is if the make dungeons completely random generated, so every crawl was unique every time.
other then that the game will be really boring really fast, think Guild Wars without the pvp and crafting.
Dark and LIght has taken #1 place and DDO takes a back seat in my opinion.

It seems you're mostly feeling bad about the fact that there's no PvP. I hardly ever PvP, so I don't mind that it's not in DDO.

I'll miss the crafting... a bit. Currently I'm playing WoW and doing a bit of crafting, but sometimes it's a bit of a chore. And I hate chores.

Instanced quests: most DMs in PnP make a lot of the quests in advance, so they're instanced in a way as well. So I don't see a problem there.

Don't know about mounts, hardly ever had mounts in the PnP D&D either, much too expensive for me.

Guilds: see Ken's answer....

No XP for mobs: good! No more 'wandering packets of XP/loot' wandering about aimlessly. Just like the PnP D&D (yes, I'm comparing this to PnP D&D a lot, but that's the whole idea of this game. It doesn't want to be a MMO like WoW or AC2 or whatever) you will only get XP for completing quests and a bit for killing mobs. It was the quest XP that made me level up, not killing scores of kobolds. So again: great and not a negative point for DDO.

"Almost" impossible, well said, so it's possible. It will just take skill and a bit of luck. But then again, if I want a solo game, I'll buy Dungeon Siege II.

We had some conflicts in our PnP party, but it never came to fighting. Besides in my experience PvP too often leads to abusement and l33t behaviour.

PS
I've seen the beta of DnL and even though it's nice to be able to look far away in the distance and travel in a land 200x200 kms, it's seriously lacking content and that really really needs a lot of hard work to fix. But you're right, it certainly has potential.

InsaneStewy · August 2005

Oh man. For a moment I was excited about this game. Now hearing all of this its going to suck. I don't care if PVP/crafting were not major factors of pnp dnd. You have to consider this is a real world that people want to play in. this sounds really boring now.

Arremus · August 2005

Meh, "crafting". It depends what you determine to be crafting.
I would not call WoW's system crafting by any stretch of the imagination, even EQ2's to an extent.
I'd call them.. "mass producing".
I make a Sword of the Dude, and then player#15366 makes a Sword of the Dude, and they're exactly the same.. and so on.

But that in turn leads to the DDO system.
I pressume you get random items off mobs and in chests while questing?
So does that in turn mean you need to do the repeatable Instances over and over looking for the best drops?
Because I can hardly imagine you'd end up with a unique and top-end set of looted gear from just going through each instance once.
But then again you might, Dungeon Siege style, where every mob drops 4 nice items hehe.

I dunno.. I'd much prefer an enchantment style system, where runes or gems you loot can be added to items you have, increasing their stats and abilities. At least in a game like this.

But then again, I know very little about the D&D Universe and thus have zero idea if such things are even in the ruleset.

As it is now though, most all the MMOs that I have played have become stale and flacid, so I'll probably get this if for nothing else that fiiiiinally having a breath of fresh air.
Even if the enjoyment only lasts 3 months.

(Bring on Hero's Journey! )

DarkHeart2 · September 2005

For the pvp issue. I whatch a video from E3 where one of the devs say pvp is in the test play for the second exspansion. Or something like that...

hyperionjr · September 2005

Originally posted by InsaneStewy

Oh man. For a moment I was excited about this game. Now hearing all of this its going to suck. I don't care if PVP/crafting were not major factors of pnp dnd. You have to consider this is a real world that people want to play in. this sounds really boring now.

I was going to rite the same thing! I was really excited about this game but I too feel a little reluctant after this discussion.

-I scared I will log on and spend about an hour waiting for someone to party me so I can play the game. Seeing as how there isn't anything I can do by myself.

-How will you know if someone already completed the quest you "need" to do? So now I have to search around for another hour looking for a party that needs to do my same quest or a quest I haven't done yet. Right?

-Assuming there are 50K people playing this game each doing about 7-10 quests a day, there is no way DDO can keep up with new quests/dungeons. So now you run across: (quest 1) Rescue the little girl from the kobold camp. (quest 2) This time go and kill the kobold witch. What if you killed her in quest 1? Now what? She magically appears again for you to kill her?

-Since you pretty much need a tank(fighter), rogue, spell-caster, and a couple healers on a quest, I see some of the other classes getting left out alot. If you dont want to fall into the "hype" and use either of these...you will be ass'd out. Some people have a favorite class like monk or ranger and want to play them. Since you only get exp from completing quests, these guys will only get picked on quests that specifically need them. While the others will always get picked.

Final Fantasy minus exploring and crafting.

Devient · September 2005

No PvP - I disagree and agree. I only agree with PvP if they are going to have an expansion for this game which allows you to play characters who are of evil - get it of EVIL alignment. CE, LE, or NE - that is it. And if these alignments are allowed from the get go - then they should allow those players whose alignment is of good to battle the evil.

No Crafting - For now? More then likely - they are probably going to work on a way of crafting where it feels more like D&D and less like - WoW or DAoC - where if you get all the ingredients and do everything right you make X Item. And Joe down the street can do it faster and more because he has hours and hours of play time and you have a job.

No Solo Play - GRRRRRRRR - Ok - I understand that they are really trying to get as close to PnP as possible - but there were solo quests for rogues, fighters, clerics and wizards, for 1 on 1 sessions with the DM. I remember them. There are just some times when a group is not possible, and then there are some times when grouping with some people is more hazardous then soloing - if ya catch my drift. Please for the love of god - if you are listening - for us casual players - make a section where we will be able to solo alot of our quests. It will make us happy to keep up with others that start with us - that just may not be available to help us on our quests when we are leveling.

Ebberron - That really burns my A$$. Sorry WotC and Turbine - but bad choice. I know I am not the first person to say it - and I wont be the last - the World of Ebberron is an EXPANSION at best - it should not have been a primary. That is the way it is. A thought would have been to start in a place where you could have eventually gotten to all of your D&D worlds - IE Sigil and the Outer Planes - then you could have eventually expanded outward in the form of free and pay for xpacks for ALL of you realms. Now that you are starting in Ebb - you will have a harder time making use of those other realms - if you ever intend to at all - which some of us really hope you do.

OH WELL - I know me - I will still buy it

Wolfen333 · September 2005

Originally posted by hyperionjr
Originally posted by InsaneStewy
Oh man. For a moment I was excited about this game. Now hearing all of this its going to suck. I don't care if PVP/crafting were not major factors of pnp dnd. You have to consider this is a real world that people want to play in. this sounds really boring now.

I was going to rite the same thing! I was really excited about this game but I too feel a little reluctant after this discussion.
-I scared I will log on and spend about an hour waiting for someone to party me so I can play the game. Seeing as how there isn't anything I can do by myself.
-How will you know if someone already completed the quest you "need" to do? So now I have to search around for another hour looking for a party that needs to do my same quest or a quest I haven't done yet. Right?
-Assuming there are 50K people playing this game each doing about 7-10 quests a day, there is no way DDO can keep up with new quests/dungeons. So now you run across: (quest 1) Rescue the little girl from the kobold camp. (quest 2) This time go and kill the kobold witch. What if you killed her in quest 1? Now what? She magically appears again for you to kill her?
-Since you pretty much need a tank(fighter), rogue, spell-caster, and a couple healers on a quest, I see some of the other classes getting left out alot. If you dont want to fall into the "hype" and use either of these...you will be ass'd out. Some people have a favorite class like monk or ranger and want to play them. Since you only get exp from completing quests, these guys will only get picked on quests that specifically need them. While the others will always get picked.
Final Fantasy minus exploring and crafting.

OK first of all DND is not the same as WOW where you have the figther as the tank, the priest as the healer etc..., DND does not define classes that way, there are so many ways you can mix and match them to create a unique class.

Secondly, why would you need a tank, rogue, spell-caster and a couple of healers. I remember 1 PnP campaign I did with some friends where all 5 of us were thieves, you'd be surprised how successful we were, we were a very powerfull group.

Dedthom · September 2005

Originally posted by Wolfen333

Secondly, why would you need a tank, rogue, spell-caster and a couple of healers. I remember 1 PnP campaign I did with some friends where all 5 of us were thieves, you'd be surprised how successful we were, we were a very powerfull group.

But you had a real live DM to adjust the situations to fit your group. DNDO will not be the PNP game. since it is a computer game there will be "min maxing" and "template/build" characters. MMORPGs are all about this. IMHO there will never be a MMORPG that can match the diversity of action and scope of a PNP because you have to have a way to reponde to the players actions. Those who will try DNDO because they want the PNP experience will not last long. Those who want only to play MMORPGs will probably enjoy what is offered.

Wolfen333 · September 2005

Originally posted by Dedthom
But you had a real live DM to adjust the situations to fit your group. DNDO will not be the PNP game. since it is a computer game there will be "min maxing" and "template/build" characters. MMORPGs are all about this. IMHO there will never be a MMORPG that can match the diversity of action and scope of a PNP because you have to have a way to reponde to the players actions. Those who will try DNDO because they want the PNP experience will not last long. Those who want only to play MMORPGs will probably enjoy what is offered.

Yes, all true, but that wasnt my point...my point was that he was comparing DNDO to WOW, basing his complaint about DNDO to how it is done in WOW. You cant compare DNDO to other MMORPG's because it's not the same, it's like comparing watermellons to cherries.

Dedthom · September 2005

Point taken. I think that WOW is different from EQ is different from GW. DNDo is attempting to break new ground which is a good thing.Will they succeed is another thing. Right now there are alot of MMORPGs that handle things differently so you have a chose based on what you are looking to accomplish and what you enjoy. Comparing any MMORPG to another is like comparing watermelons to cherries.

kyubiii · September 2005

that sucks.....wonder how they gonna work this out

Theo · September 2005

I don't know how the rest of it measures up but one thing I'm really looking forward to is the "no XP for mobs" thing.

Right now I'm playing City of Heroes, and a significant problem with game balance is that some characters have a much higher combat effectiveness than others, allowing them to advance rapidly solo OR on teams, while some support classes are much more reliant on teams for XP. It also has the effect of limiting gameplay, as there's really only ONE way to complete most missions: defeating all the mobs. Rarely is it feasible to simply sneak past them or restrain them long enough to complete your objective.

The heavy use of instanced zones also interests me. EQ and EQ2 had a lot of real estate to run around in, but they still felt rather claustrophobic with all the other players tripping over one another. The spaces were large enough to make travel a nuisance and small enough to prevent it from feeling epic in scale. Camping was also almost as much of a problem in EQ2 as it was in EQ1. Instances eliminate that problem.

I'd like to see horses if only because they're a staple of the fantasy genre, but the elimination of travel time makes them largely useless unless it's for special combat scenarios like jousting. EQ2 has horses, but they're expensive to acquire and they're slow.

So far DDO has me intrigued. I'll give it a shot.

Somnulus · October 2005

Originally posted by Volkmar

even if you asked for a simple "yes/No" answer, i will elaborate a bit more.
1: yes, there is no pvp in DDO. As PvP has never been a great part of the PnP game, it isn't in the DDO experience.
2: yes, there is no crafting in DDO. Same reason.

Your answer to #1 isn't entirely accurate, Volkmar. At least, it has been my experience that PvP had equal value in the PnP game. If the separate and disparate characters of your party were playing their roles properly, there would be many circumstances under which you may very well feel like dealing a little punishment to them.

Having had more than one Kender in my parties whose penchant for "borrowing" items from party members and NPCs alike brought about whole new worlds of anguish, there were many times I gave that player's character a good rap to the head and more than one occasion in which I would have gladly killed him myself. Luckily for him, my Wisdom and understanding of other races kept me from doing it.

I also had a friend who loved playing barbarians and saw every magic item as a flashing sign that said "experience". As his character wasn't all too bright and barbarians got experience for destroying magic items, there were many items destroyed that could have benefitted the party and more than one occasion where his destruction of a magic item caused a fatality or two. Yup.... I smacked one of his characters around pretty good after he nearly took my leg off destroying an orb of red dragon control.

If you have players of good alignment playing alongside a player who has chosen an evil alignment, there's going to be conflict. If there isn't, as the DM, I'd be throwing some in if the players weren't roleplaying their characters properly. Either that, or they might be looking at a forced alignment change at some point in their future... which could have interesting consequences all their own if they worship a deity of specific alignment. Imagine a chaotic evil priest who suddenly found himself/herself neutral or chaotic good, calling on their diety for spells and getting zip.

Finally, there are those situations where your friends are turned against you against their will.

As for #2, I couldn't disagree more. I don't think I had a game where a player wasn't attempting to make new items, infuse them with spells or design their own weapons, armor, etc., myself included.

What about the creation of rods, wands, staves, weapons, spells, potions, etc., as described in D&D 3rd Edition? That's not crafting? Under the open source system, you can create practically any kind of item that you can imagine. Want an intelligent, enhanced weapon? If your skill bonus is high enough, it's possible.

I didn't have a single character that didn't attempt to craft, everything from weapons to spells. As a DM, I created new weapons and armor types and encouraged my players to use their skills to try to figure out how they were created so that they could have those items available to them.

Other than your name, what exactly will make your character unique in the world of DDO Online? From everything they've said so far, it sounds like a giant cookie cutter will be applied for each class - BAM! one ranger, BAM! two rangers, etc.

People have a habit of making crafting sound bad because it separates those who can from those who can't or won't. I guess that's a little too close to reality for some people. But I would personally prefer the ability to make a sword, shield or other item that was completely unlike anyone else's items and that complimented my character.

Azathoth · October 2005

Oh boy. This is going to be worse than AC2. Turbine has been cutting corners on stuff and DDO is no exception. They need to get it together. They are beginning to make a bad name for themselves.

Aztec · October 2005

Having no xp for mobs and having soloing almost impossible, I don't see this game standing the test of time for very long. It been shown time and time again that people do enjoy fighting in groups but those same people also enjoy soloing like say after a big raid to cool down or when no guild members or friends are on. There is also no getting around the idea and fantasy of the lone hero.

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