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Gems and the economy
stori11
Member Posts: 26
Am I the only one worried about the effects the gems will have on the economy in the game? In FAQ or somewhere it was stated that gems do not let you ''pay2win'' but you can sell them for gold, which means that not only you can ''pay2win'' with the exp boost and the fact that you can buy gear with the gold made from gems, but you can also make a heavy impact on the entire economy of the game with the gems, and I dont think that would be a good thing.
Hell, sooner or later we might even start seeing people buying gems and trading them for items right away. I am aware that there is no gear treadmill here but still in guild wars 1 gear was important because of the cosmetics, and people being able to buy the prestige cosmetic items with the money made of gems or simply with the gems will take out the prestige from even the hardest to earn gear.
I think these are very valid concerns unless I missed some information that would make these concerns invalid.
Comments
I don't think you understand how items and armor are got in GW2. Sure there will be some stuff you can buy with gold, or crafted by buying materials with gold. But there is even more stuff that requires time to get ... which cannot be bought with gold. Unless you paid someone in gold to run you through tons of content.
All the dungoen armor sets require tokens to get, which as far as I know, you can't trade for or buy. The only way to get them is by killing bosses of a dungeon in exploration mode.
Then things like legendary weapons you cannot simply buy. You have to "show mastery of the game", which probably means, "grind like a crazy person and finish tons of content". The devs have already stated you can't buy this stuff.
The only cosmetics I saw that you can buy were stupid sunglasses, chef's outfits and what not. That is not "prestige cosmetic gear", that is "buy to look stupid" gear. I highly doubt these troll items are what people will look at and go "wow". It will be the stuff that actually takes time to get in game that will be cool.
The only "buy to win" argument that makes any sense at all is seige equipment ... but that is also limited by supply. Personally, I think they should make all WvW stuff bought with badges of honor, and maybe increase the drop rate of those items more so people can afford the stuff. Other than that though, there are no "buy to win" items that I see in the game.
WoW is buy to win, EQ was buy to win, every subscription game without a cash shop is buy to win. The cash shop is simply taking a lot of this power out of the RMT's hands and putting the profits in ArenaNet's pockets. I don't get why people don't understand this. SOOOO many people out there that buy gold/accounts/characters/etc. with real money it isn't even funny.
I dont think the 2 of you understood my concerns, I played guild wars 1 almost from the start, and dont tell me its a different game because one thing hasn't changed here, elite dungeons, farmers and cosmetic items. The hardest to get stuff will be always the most expensive because I really doubt there will be some kind of a soulbound on pick up system ( god damn habits from wow ) so they will cost a lot of money to get.
Now the money can be earned in many ways, by farming, by power trading or by selling gems, and the 3 affect each other with supply/demand, now the gem sellers might cause inflatation because they are still introducing a currency, and while they arent producing more gold but rather taking it out, gems could become a secondary economy in which case the ones buying said gems and introducing them into the market would possibly have the power over the entire economy, now people who dont know the prices and have money to buy the gems would simply ruin the economy, crash the prices etc. and the ones who know the market and the prices would be able to manipulate all the prices to their gain. This would cause harm to me, as a trader, it would cause harm to the average player who just wants to enjoy the game. It would only bring gain to the ones buying the gems, I hope you can see what I mean now.
I highly doubt the tokens are tradeable. However, I never tried the explorable dungeon in the beta ... so I never had any of those tokens to check. I would assume it would be untradeable like Karma. The fact of the matter is, neither of us knows ... so the debate is rather pointless unless someone can confirm it either way.
And I don't think your economic analysis makes sense. People that buy gems don't control the market. The people trading on the market all effect it. Gems will have an "in-game" value in gold. If people are willing to farm up 2 gold of gems in an hour and then buy $1 worth of gems, and that is worth their time ... then that is how much they will cost. The thing is, we have no clue how much money people will be bringing in at the later levels. Obviously, gem costs will most likely increase drastically over time.
The fact is, everything is still just "supply and demand", the only way people will be able to control the market is if they control all of one thing. And if people can simply just "buy more gems with real money", controlling all of it will be impossible. And even if you did that ... you would have so much supply and so little demand, they would be worth nothing.
That is just how it is going to work. If gems are worth buying, players will buy them and farm up the necessary in game gold. If people find it worth it to buy gems and sell them at a certain price, they will do that to save some farming time of their own. It is all supply and demand ... and it will most definitely be impacted based on every transaction.
The people that are going to "control the market" are those who have the most in-game money and can manipulate and trade the market for their gain. This requires in-game gold, and know how. Not just gems.
I usually don't post, just read, as I find everything I need already posted. But after seeing this question so many times... All people who have doubts about GW2 economy, p2w, etc should see this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx7o7CRoDXc.
It's well explained and has good information.
I didn't know this.
[mod edit] for the uninformed: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Store
Feel free to look at any of those items, I do not see a single item in there that will allow advantage over any player. I do not see any "sword of ubermights" that 1 shot a player if they stare into it's gaze. Everything in the item shop is non combat, style, or extra inventory space.
How is any of that pay2win?
"but wahh, you can sell the items bought for in game gold"
Good, sell it for all the in game gold you want, boost that crafting while you grind out KARMA for your gear -- which will be what gives you any 'advantage'. Sure, maybe you can find a few 'okay' items on the Auction House or whatever, but it's not going to be any so drastic that it will give any advantages.
[mod edit]
Also by pay 2 win I did not mean actuall item power or stats, because it wasn't important in gw1 and it isn't important in gw2, cosmetic items have been however important in gw1 and they will be important in gw2. So the person that got all their prestige shit with gold earned through gems would be wearing the same stuff that another person earned through weeks/months/years/whatever of playing, if they wanted to, is that not an issue?
Im not saying the 2 are the same game btw.
My gear that I purchased with gold looks cooler than yours, therefore; I win?
...Is my point really that hard to comprehend? Yes you fucking win, obviously not literally since there is no gear treadmill, but the cosmetics still matter.
Its really simple, and this thread at some point has been derailed, because what I care to find out isn't if someone can pay2win and such but if they can pay and manipulate the economy.
The answer is no , to anything related to Gw2 being Pay to win, its also no to if they can manipulate the economy which is just veiled way of implying its pay to win.
This same issue has been discussed many, many times .... those threads still exsist.
I think he's wondering if you can buy 300k gems and then sell them all for a ton of gold, then buy all the mats up, and then sell them for huge prices.
Fortunately, the market is cross-server making this incredibly hard to do as items will be added to the market at lower prices and fall back into place almost right away.
The best cosmetic gear comes from dungeon tokens, they are not tradeable so you can't buy the "prestige" gear with gold or gems or real money. The best weapons require skill points to make and are untradeable as well so gold and gems cannot be used to buy them either. So no prestige cosmetic items cannot be bought with real money in any way
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
dont know if it helps but theres a discussion about it here
Real life money --> in game money
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Talk:Gem&oldid=294769
EQ2 fan sites
Well, finally someone who got my point, I did not know the market is cross-server, and that solves the problem most likely, since I doubt there would ever be enough people trying to manipulate the prices by buying gems.
It's actually false. No prestige cosmetic armor will be available thourgh gems directly or indirectly through gold because dungeon tokens are not tradeable (same with legendary weapons, as legendary mats are not tradeable).
LOL. you and lot of people...because is false information.
Heh... all this concern over gems.
People have actually run some tests, and done some research on the GW2 economy. And it definitely does have issues. Gems aren't one of them atm.
Oh, this again.
Will these topics just start cycling more and more frequently as we approach the launch date?
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Will Gems have an impact on the economy?
Obviously or else Arenanet wouldn't have included them in the game. To play Devil's Advocate, if gems weren't in game people would just be buying gold from a third party and it would have a similiar impact.
Gems can definitely be used to as a time saver if nothing else.
The in game economy is regional. All people on a US server share the same trading Post. All people on an EU server share the same trading post. When the economy is based on 1million+ people spread across a hundered servers, it just isn't possible for someone to manipulate the market in the way you suggest.
During BWE3, some of the most traded crafting mats sported around 30,000 to 80,000 of each mat on the trading post! Even if some Richie Rich could buy enough gems to buy all those mats, more would be pouring in continuously. No one would ever be able to keep up logistically.
Also, I'm not sure what the exact trading Post cut is on item sales, but it seems like it's pretty significant. (I'm guessing it's at least 20%). Stacks of mats are not listed individually. You always buy the lowest price offerings and a chart shows you quantities available at the lowest five or so price points. People are always undercutting prices and almost everyone matches the lowest price. Trying to force prices up via market manipulation would be a daunting, if not impossible, task.
In the end, if some idiot wants to drop $1,000 in an effort to manipulate the economy, I say let them, they aren't going to get any where, they aren't going to be able to inflict game wide inflation and the $1,000 funds the ongoing development of the game I can enjoy with a subscription fee!
The regional economy and shared Trading Post are key elements that prevent what you are talking about.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
