When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.
Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.
Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.
What the hell are u talking about ??
Why would you want to balance Trinity in PVP ????
Trinity is the best thing there is in a PvP.
Yeah i got to agree with you reallyhere, having clases that use specific sets of abilities that can be made to synergize an work off each other is great for pvp. The issue I see as i have said before is that most mmo pvp combat is based around using pve-values for the pvp, but then adjusting that value to balance pvp which imbalnces the pve side of the game causing a cycle of blancing changes between each side. If you create the game around having one set of values for abilities that is for pvp combat, and then one set for pve combat you can balance each class for both pvp combat an pve combat without either balancing attempt effecting the other. Then also having gear that is tailred towards pve or pvp combat without it actually having stats that are solely for pve or pvp helps further as each part of the combat is independent of each other.
When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.
Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.
Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.
What the hell are u talking about ??
Why would you want to balance Trinity in PVP ????
Trinity is the best thing there is in a PvP.
Agreed. Role-based teamplay is the best part of PVP.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed: And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!" ~Lord George Gordon Byron
As long as one person goes off on their own and doesnt pay attention to their surrounding and gets ganked by 5 players. There will be complaining about pvp. You dont need 5 reasons you just need one reason. The players themselves end up making pvp suck. The bad mechanics and abilities are secondary factors. I never understood pve players on pvp servers. What did u expect was going to happen. Even worse, people complaining about owpvp on an owpvp game. I dont get that either. I attribute this more to that everyone thinks they are a hero in games and get the feeling that they cant take on 5 ai mobs at once. I should be able to take on five plaer characters as well.
When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.
Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.
Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.
What the hell are u talking about ??
Why would you want to balance Trinity in PVP ????
Trinity is the best thing there is in a PvP.
Yeah i got to agree with you reallyhere, having clases that use specific sets of abilities that can be made to synergize an work off each other is great for pvp. The issue I see as i have said before is that most mmo pvp combat is based around using pve-values for the pvp, but then adjusting that value to balance pvp which imbalnces the pve side of the game causing a cycle of blancing changes between each side. If you create the game around having one set of values for abilities that is for pvp combat, and then one set for pve combat you can balance each class for both pvp combat an pve combat without either balancing attempt effecting the other. Then also having gear that is tailred towards pve or pvp combat without it actually having stats that are solely for pve or pvp helps further as each part of the combat is independent of each other.
Exactly. It adds depth to PVP and gameplay in MMO's.
Do you mean something like the system that was added in Guild Wars 1 ?
abilities were balanced differently for PVP and PVE.
When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.
Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.
Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.
What the hell are u talking about ??
Why would you want to balance Trinity in PVP ????
Trinity is the best thing there is in a PvP.
Yeah i got to agree with you reallyhere, having clases that use specific sets of abilities that can be made to synergize an work off each other is great for pvp. The issue I see as i have said before is that most mmo pvp combat is based around using pve-values for the pvp, but then adjusting that value to balance pvp which imbalnces the pve side of the game causing a cycle of blancing changes between each side. If you create the game around having one set of values for abilities that is for pvp combat, and then one set for pve combat you can balance each class for both pvp combat an pve combat without either balancing attempt effecting the other. Then also having gear that is tailred towards pve or pvp combat without it actually having stats that are solely for pve or pvp helps further as each part of the combat is independent of each other.
Exactly. It adds depth to PVP and gameplay in MMO's.
Do you mean something like the system that was added in Guild Wars 1 ?
abilities were balanced differently for PVP and PVE.
More like each ability had two different set of variables (ike damage, duration, and such.) for pve, and pvp based combat. This way a fireball could be balanced to deal one set of damage in pvp an another in pve combat, or a stun last five seconds in pvp an 12 seconds in pve, this way you actually have essially one versiion of the ability that is balanced for pvp an another for pve without worrying about either effecting the other. Since the values of each are serperate from each other, and since games already can distinguish between npcs an players switching the effect between the pvp an pve values to determine the effect could be handled as well. Been too long since i played gw1 so not sure, that is the best i can discribe it though. If you wish i can give it another try when i get back.
1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane
2. PvP specific gear
3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.
4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.
One of the worst PvP trends in MMO gaming is that almost all of it is canned. Everytime developers take one of the themepark "rides" out of the gameworld, they strip the game of life and immersion.
Want to adventure? You'll have to go to PvE-World. Want open world action? Well, we really don't have that, but WvW-Land kinda simulates it, without actually being it (hurry, though, the current deathmatch ends in a couple of days). Housing? You'll find that in Housing-Land.
Now, games are an amalgamation of completely separate sub-games. Personally, I think the best games are the ones in which almost everything happens in one, unified open world.
Same thing with character development - it's a key element of RPGs, and always has been. The separation of sub-games is creating schizophrenic characters.
I'd say PvP sucks in most games because there's little point to it, it's too fast paced, and the players behind them are bunny hopping kids.
Good PvP, iMHO, will be based around conquering other factions through siege and territory control. That gives us a point to PvP. The pace of combat should be a lot slower so that tactics and strategy could be used. Formations should be beneficial, unit collision should be in place, and when you die, it should take you a while before you can rejoin the main battle.
I think the pace SWG had in combat was good. It would take me up to 15 minutes for a friend and I to finish a duel. That was good, but nothing compared to the 30min + it took 2 Jedi to fight.
When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.
Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.
Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.
The roles don't change in PvP. A healer still heals, a tank still tanks, and dps still burns down the enemy players. The only difference between PvP and PvE is that you're not sure what the PvPers will do.
i like open world pvp sure but whats with the hate on instanced pvp, why not go out kill people in the world WHILE in queue for BG's / Arena's....i personally like both, instanced you can just jump in anywhere and its convenient lets say if theres no1 flagged or theyre running out and in safe zones...i can see why if you are a lore obssessive person instanced pvp would be bad but pvp doesnt go with lore anyway as lore usually focuses on ONE hero being your character and a bunch of characters killing each other doesnt make sense lore wise. so why do so many people hate it, is it simply too competitive and in your face? cause business wise a game that gets the player's to play competitively will usually sell better in that it gives a person a goal or incentive to actually pvp...the sad fact is unless a good sandbox comes out open world pvp is garbage in that ur usually penalized and if successful get no reward for killing other players while taking the risk....people need a reason to kill....
Yeah i got to agree with you reallyhere, having clases that use specific sets of abilities that can be made to synergize an work off each other is great for pvp. The issue I see as i have said before is that most mmo pvp combat is based around using pve-values for the pvp, but then adjusting that value to balance pvp which imbalnces the pve side of the game causing a cycle of blancing changes between each side. If you create the game around having one set of values for abilities that is for pvp combat, and then one set for pve combat you can balance each class for both pvp combat an pve combat without either balancing attempt effecting the other. Then also having gear that is tailred towards pve or pvp combat without it actually having stats that are solely for pve or pvp helps further as each part of the combat is independent of each other.
Exactly. It adds depth to PVP and gameplay in MMO's.
Do you mean something like the system that was added in Guild Wars 1 ?
abilities were balanced differently for PVP and PVE.
More like each ability had two different set of variables (ike damage, duration, and such.) for pve, and pvp based combat. This way a fireball could be balanced to deal one set of damage in pvp an another in pve combat, or a stun last five seconds in pvp an 12 seconds in pve, this way you actually have essially one versiion of the ability that is balanced for pvp an another for pve without worrying about either effecting the other. Since the values of each are serperate from each other, and since games already can distinguish between npcs an players switching the effect between the pvp an pve values to determine the effect could be handled as well. Been too long since i played gw1 so not sure, that is the best i can discribe it though. If you wish i can give it another try when i get back.
When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.
Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.
Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.
Strange how did full pvp based moba fire games balanced it then? Now im really confused.
And it's easily balanced Healer vs. Dps, in the most games you can't burn down the healer solo as dps, Tank vs Healer= in the most games healer can't kill the tank because his lifereg or selfheal is to high.
Sure there are games not balancing it, but then I didn't play them.
As much I see from your post, youre gaming experience isnt very thought or you played the wrong games:D
When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.
Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.
Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.
The roles don't change in PvP. A healer still heals, a tank still tanks, and dps still burns down the enemy players. The only difference between PvP and PvE is that you're not sure what the PvPers will do.
his point was that this is PVE centric class design and it is one of the major problems behind pvp balance in many games. this is the reason the unkillable healers, worthless or overpowered tanks, and overly bursty dps, and simplistic paper/rock/scissors style balance are so ubiquitous in games. these same pvp balance issues appear in so many games because they all have the same pve mechanic driving their character creation.
@ the guys talking about MOBAs.. this is all in reference to MMORPGS.. not mobas designed to be mobas. that is a different genre of games with completely different class design goals.
PvP has been perverted by rules and regulations to make it like just some lame e-sport with a goal to collect, tokens, badges, honor points,etc...
PvP has no impact in the game world. No significant impact, No Changes, No losing, Just slowing earning more cookies...
PvP has no risk, losing is just a momentary delay before you can carelessly throw yourself at your enemy again.
PvP have no big picture purpose, like the old days of fighting over limit resources, over land, over Boss mobs, etc...
And the biggest reason it sucks is that, too many people join a PvP server but don't really want to complete fully.
They don't want complex world competition like vying for control of a critical resources, NPC city or leveling zone.
They don't want an open system that pits them against players that play hard, give 100% and work to gain advantages over them. They want to compete without the preapring, trainiing or working for it.
They don't want a system that has any risk and even demand that losing should be rewarded, just with few cookies than winning.
They don't want a complex and variable competitive environment, instead favoring a controlled and stifling e-sport that rewards continually re-spawning until your enemy falls asleep or quits the match out of boredom.
In the end their favorite PvP is the kind that simple doesn't matter and is completely forgettable, hence the sucking...
In the end their favorite PvP is the kind that simple doesn't matter and is completely forgettable, hence the sucking...
a classic utopian dilemma actually.. if everyone gets what they want what challenge, thrill, and adventure is left?
victory can only exist because defeat exists
and other light/shadow buddhist type of stuff.
i like your point is what i'm trying to say.
ummm ..Thanks.
You brought up a good point. In good PvP, for one players to the have the thrill and excitement of winning another must feel the anguish and frustration of losing, another reason that most MMOs stay far away from truely competitiive PvP.
PvP sucks today because too much importance is placed on gear. Skill is nearly removed. Class balance isn't too much of an issue depending on how PvP was originally designed. In DAOC's case, the game was designed for huge sieges and zergs. Individual class balance wasn't as important. That was until people decided 8v8 was more important than realm defense. Then with TOA... Well, most know how that essential ruined it.
PvP has been perverted by rules and regulations to make it like just some lame e-sport with a goal to collect, tokens, badges, honor points,etc...
PvP has no impact in the game world. No significant impact, No Changes, No losing, Just slowing earning more cookies...
PvP has no risk, losing is just a momentary delay before you can carelessly throw yourself at your enemy again.
PvP have no big picture purpose, like the old days of fighting over limit resources, over land, over Boss mobs, etc...
And the biggest reason it sucks is that, too many people join a PvP server but don't really want to complete fully.
They don't want complex world competition like vying for control of a critical resources, NPC city or leveling zone.
They don't want an open system that pits them against players that play hard, give 100% and work to gain advantages over them. They want to compete without the preapring, trainiing or working for it.
They don't want a system that has any risk and even demand that losing should be rewarded, just with few cookies than winning.
They don't want a complex and variable competitive environment, instead favoring a controlled and stifling e-sport that rewards continually re-spawning until your enemy falls asleep or quits the match out of boredom.
In the end their favorite PvP is the kind that simple doesn't matter and is completely forgettable, hence the sucking...
Well yeah, we mostly want pure skillful competition. We don't want watered down casual PVP.
Which is odd because usually the more casual thing (PVP where you can gain substantial advantages through time investment or zerging, instead of just skill) is less popular. Usually it's the other way around.
World PVP is about as thrilling as if someone made a war movie about a bunch of marines killing some civilians. There'd be no conflict; no drama; no excitement; just a steamroll. No entertainment. But entertainment is the point of games!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
Exactly. MMO's with no Open world PvP are FAKE and boring.
Its like walking outside in the dark when a stranger with a gun comes your way.
In a fake and boring MMO he would just walked past you.
In a real MMO like WoW an Epic fight would have occurred. EXCITING.
Yeah i got to agree with you reallyhere, having clases that use specific sets of abilities that can be made to synergize an work off each other is great for pvp. The issue I see as i have said before is that most mmo pvp combat is based around using pve-values for the pvp, but then adjusting that value to balance pvp which imbalnces the pve side of the game causing a cycle of blancing changes between each side. If you create the game around having one set of values for abilities that is for pvp combat, and then one set for pve combat you can balance each class for both pvp combat an pve combat without either balancing attempt effecting the other. Then also having gear that is tailred towards pve or pvp combat without it actually having stats that are solely for pve or pvp helps further as each part of the combat is independent of each other.
Agreed. Role-based teamplay is the best part of PVP.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Top 5 PvP Design Flaws
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
~Lord George Gordon Byron
Exactly. It adds depth to PVP and gameplay in MMO's.
Do you mean something like the system that was added in Guild Wars 1 ?
abilities were balanced differently for PVP and PVE.
More like each ability had two different set of variables (ike damage, duration, and such.) for pve, and pvp based combat. This way a fireball could be balanced to deal one set of damage in pvp an another in pve combat, or a stun last five seconds in pvp an 12 seconds in pve, this way you actually have essially one versiion of the ability that is balanced for pvp an another for pve without worrying about either effecting the other. Since the values of each are serperate from each other, and since games already can distinguish between npcs an players switching the effect between the pvp an pve values to determine the effect could be handled as well. Been too long since i played gw1 so not sure, that is the best i can discribe it though. If you wish i can give it another try when i get back.
One and only reason: LOOK IN THE MIRROR
I agree.
I'd say PvP sucks in most games because there's little point to it, it's too fast paced, and the players behind them are bunny hopping kids.
Good PvP, iMHO, will be based around conquering other factions through siege and territory control. That gives us a point to PvP. The pace of combat should be a lot slower so that tactics and strategy could be used. Formations should be beneficial, unit collision should be in place, and when you die, it should take you a while before you can rejoin the main battle.
I think the pace SWG had in combat was good. It would take me up to 15 minutes for a friend and I to finish a duel. That was good, but nothing compared to the 30min + it took 2 Jedi to fight.
The roles don't change in PvP. A healer still heals, a tank still tanks, and dps still burns down the enemy players. The only difference between PvP and PvE is that you're not sure what the PvPers will do.
RPG's are all about time invested = power. You're looking for the FPS genre, not RPGs for PvP.
Yeah this is something like the GW did
Yeh but EVEs combat requires no skill, all about what ship you bring and how many of you there are.
Strange how did full pvp based moba fire games balanced it then? Now im really confused.
And it's easily balanced Healer vs. Dps, in the most games you can't burn down the healer solo as dps, Tank vs Healer= in the most games healer can't kill the tank because his lifereg or selfheal is to high.
Sure there are games not balancing it, but then I didn't play them.
As much I see from your post, youre gaming experience isnt very thought or you played the wrong games:D
his point was that this is PVE centric class design and it is one of the major problems behind pvp balance in many games. this is the reason the unkillable healers, worthless or overpowered tanks, and overly bursty dps, and simplistic paper/rock/scissors style balance are so ubiquitous in games. these same pvp balance issues appear in so many games because they all have the same pve mechanic driving their character creation.
@ the guys talking about MOBAs.. this is all in reference to MMORPGS.. not mobas designed to be mobas. that is a different genre of games with completely different class design goals.
In my opinion PvP sucks in most MMOs because...
And the biggest reason it sucks is that, too many people join a PvP server but don't really want to complete fully.
In the end their favorite PvP is the kind that simple doesn't matter and is completely forgettable, hence the sucking...
a classic utopian dilemma actually.. if everyone gets what they want what challenge, thrill, and adventure is left?
victory can only exist because defeat exists
and other light/shadow buddhist type of stuff.
i like your point is what i'm trying to say.
this guys opinion is so far off its no wonder devs get confused when taking feedback from a playerbase.
Deth to you ALL!
ummm ..Thanks.
You brought up a good point. In good PvP, for one players to the have the thrill and excitement of winning another must feel the anguish and frustration of losing, another reason that most MMOs stay far away from truely competitiive PvP.
Class balance isn't too much of an issue depending on how PvP was originally designed.
In DAOC's case, the game was designed for huge sieges and zergs. Individual class balance wasn't as important. That was until people decided 8v8 was more important than realm defense. Then with TOA... Well, most know how that essential ruined it.
Well yeah, we mostly want pure skillful competition. We don't want watered down casual PVP.
Which is odd because usually the more casual thing (PVP where you can gain substantial advantages through time investment or zerging, instead of just skill) is less popular. Usually it's the other way around.
World PVP is about as thrilling as if someone made a war movie about a bunch of marines killing some civilians. There'd be no conflict; no drama; no excitement; just a steamroll. No entertainment. But entertainment is the point of games!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
i think the biggest prob is balance class and secondo ... noob player with bad skill choice , don't understand your class combo