As a programmer who writes documentation about software systems for a living, here's my take on what you have written:
Realistic item/prop interaction: It's not impossible, it's just a waste of development resources. It works in a single player setting, because you're the only one who has access to those items. In a multi-player setting, the first player who comes along will take all of that stuff, and then it's done. All of that development time spent adding meaningless, interactable items to a virtual world, and only one player gets to experience it.
You're correct that it wouldn't work, but not because it's limited by technology. If the developers can come up with a believable system that allows for more than one player to access the items, then it could work.
NPC Guard complexity: The AI wouldn't have to be "highly-complex." When it comes down to programming, it's really just a matter of checking booleans. If a player steps in your territory, the AI asks "is this player a friend?" The answer is either "true" or "false." Fairly simple.
The "highly-complex" part would be designing the system used to flag other players as friend or foe, which is a separate system from the AI (although it does impact the process used for an AI to make a decision, it is still a separate system). Check Darkfall for an effective flagging system that impacts both players and NPCs.
Dynamic Story-Driven Events: My understanding of "the way of the sandbox" is that the players create the story. So in an ideal sandbox, there would be very few scripted events, if any at all!
That said, if the developers truly wanted to add scripted events, they would adjust the story/lore to compensate for the fact that the event can be repeated an infinite number of times. Look at the way Rift works and how the story allows for an infinite number of Rift invasions.
MMOs by nature have repeatable content. The developers need to embrace this and write the story accordingly.
In Darkfall, there aren't scripted events where enemy NPCs attack NPC villages. Instead, players attack player-controlled villages. The players create the dynamic story and "scripted" events, not the developers. This is the essence of sandbox. Also in Darkfall, players can destroy and capture player-controlled villages. Saying that it's impossible for players to impact the world in a sandbox is kind of silly, because it's already being done in many sandboxes currently in existence.
Losing your place in the world when you logout: This just can't be avoided. Even in single player games, you have to save your progress and exit the game. This impacts more than just sandbox games.
Until someone finds a way for people to quit life and play video games indefinitely, there's no way this can be avoided. About the only possibility is to allow AI to control your character when you log out. That's where incredibly complex AI would need to be implemented. Perhaps create a system like in Dragon Age: Origins where you can choose from a list of different scripted actions for different situations (if your health reaches below 50%, then cast this spell or consume this item).
+1
A virtual lunchbreak beer for you, sir.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Skyrim is not a sandbox. It is a great game; I enjoyed the heck out of it. But it is still scripted material presented in a less linear way than your traditional SPRPG. Still on rails, just shorter, more choice in which ride to ride.
Minecraft is not an MMO either, and although it lets you build however you want it is not much of a RPG either. (minecraft fans, don't rage on me, as I have not played but have read about it, so if I misrepresented the game just let me know).
1) Too Much Stuff - A sandbox does not HAVE to have every little thing interactable. The idea of a sandbox is simply an atmophere where the player gets to do what they want within the game's ruleset, and where progression does not follow a linear track. It does not have to be "real" as you state. It also does not have to have NPC's We all know it is a game and while more interation is nice, it is not a necessity for a game.
2) MM - Once again you are not factoring in the ability for devs to make a ruleset. in Shadowbane, you could not randomly attack a building and destroy it, you first had to claim war (bane) the city, and a time is decided for the war to start. Though you could argue it takes away a sandbox feature of not being able to randomly destroy stuff, some rules are necessary to maintain a degree of order. Yes, greifing can be an issue but once again a well designed ruleset can aid in deterring/eliminating it. Also, AI does not have to be the deterent. In an FFA pvp sandbox, this is where safety in numbers/unity comes into play.
Your in game event example of centaurs is talking about a scripted event, which are not ussually in sandboxes. So once again, an invalid argument. In a sandbox, it would be more like players are attacking another player city. And yea, that event only happens once for the players who are there. THATS WHAT MAKES IT FUN; UNPREDICTABILITY! In a sandbox, you don't say, "oh, I'm going to do this prescripted event", you or others create an event that will be totally unique each time.
3) Login/Logout - Not an issue if the ruleset takes it into account. See example above.
4) Conclusion - Your conclusion is wrong. There have been (and still are) sandboxes that have satisfied players. From your writing I see you never had the chance to play SWG, UO, Shadowbane. Tell ya what, pick up Eve, DF, or MO. While not my favorite games, they will at least open your eyes a bit. And before you say "Those games are no good because of X", no game is perfect, and never will be in the eyes of the entire playerbase, because each has thier own opinion of a perfect game. But to write a wall of text on a subject you have not exerienced is silly
...Something that has always confused me, so if a pure sandbox has no quest system how do players drive PvE content?
That's probably one of the easiest things to get right in a sandbox MMORPG.
You don't have quests that give shiny rewards and you don't have rats dropping swords. All the items have to be crafted. Want a new backpack? Needs some leather. Where do you get leather? From hide. Where do you get hide? Kill some beasts. And there you have the demand for a backpack driving someone, not necessarily the one wanting the backpack, to do PvE.
Want a sword? Needs iron. Where to get it? In a mine. Where is the mine? In the mountains. What's there too? Bears.
I agree. If mobs in the environment are KOS for the character mob, the character mob has three choices: avoid, evade, or fight.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
...Something that has always confused me, so if a pure sandbox has no quest system how do players drive PvE content?
That's probably one of the easiest things to get right in a sandbox MMORPG.
You don't have quests that give shiny rewards and you don't have rats dropping swords. All the items have to be crafted. Want a new backpack? Needs some leather. Where do you get leather? From hide. Where do you get hide? Kill some beasts. And there you have the demand for a backpack driving someone, not necessarily the one wanting the backpack, to do PvE.
Want a sword? Needs iron. Where to get it? In a mine. Where is the mine? In the mountains. What's there too? Bears.
This all day long. Im so sick of these games that let rats drop gear and what not. If your looking for gear, fight humanoids. Need cloth? harvest it or reuse scraps that may come from humanoids. Pelts make leather and leather can make gear. Pelts come from beast mobs. And not from a drop. You have to skin it for the pelts. Butchering can yeild items for cooking and even weapon or gear crafting. Pulling teeth,claws,bones from beasts that can be used in all kinds of crafts.
Great post, if not a little black and white for my taste.
First, as some of my fellow reply-ers suggested, your points are not impossibilities, but are really just challenges.
Second, some suggestions to overcome these challenges:
1. Items being removed by players over time
Create NPCs that can 'over time' add items to the game to replace the items taken by players.
Allow PCs to add items themselves to replace what others were taken.
2. Multiplayer state change issues over time
NPC Quest areas that are damaged can be fixed slowly over time by NPCs (ex. Farmers come in to rebuild house)
Allow PC occupation areas that are damaged to be fixed by PCs (ex. PCs repair the towers and fences, maybe rethinking their design)
3. In Game and Out of Game issues
For PvP - Schedulable defenses/attacks (ex. Limited windows to attack someone that is known far in advance ) - No veteran I ever worked with enjoyed a war where they couldnt periodically escape from and recover from the battles. Those who had positive experiences had opportunies to rest between battles in a safe area.
4. Perfect sandbox ever?
This was best answered in the move "The Matrix". Trial and error will slowly get us all closer to better and more fun sandbox games. Perfection is a great goal to work towards, but those who believe they can truly reach it, only find oblivian.
5. TL;DR
Dont give up. Keep brainstorming ideas and do your best to ignore those that discourage you from questioning the 'status quo'.
Like real society, a true sandbox would take a long time to go from hunter-gathers to complex society. I think you are right in identifying some of the hurdles to that progression. The fact that it is a game and not real life would lower inhibitions, though you could argue without societal constraints people would act the same way in reality,(I disagree with that sentiment to an extent though). The continuity argument is probably the strongest though, people have real lives and they cannot be in the game keeping law and order ALL the time.
...Something that has always confused me, so if a pure sandbox has no quest system how do players drive PvE content?
That's probably one of the easiest things to get right in a sandbox MMORPG.
You don't have quests that give shiny rewards and you don't have rats dropping swords. All the items have to be crafted. Want a new backpack? Needs some leather. Where do you get leather? From hide. Where do you get hide? Kill some beasts. And there you have the demand for a backpack driving someone, not necessarily the one wanting the backpack, to do PvE.
Want a sword? Needs iron. Where to get it? In a mine. Where is the mine? In the mountains. What's there too? Bears.
This all day long. Im so sick of these games that let rats drop gear and what not. If your looking for gear, fight humanoids. Need cloth? harvest it or reuse scraps that may come from humanoids. Pelts make leather and leather can make gear. Pelts come from beast mobs. And not from a drop. You have to skin it for the pelts. Butchering can yeild items for cooking and even weapon or gear crafting. Pulling teeth,claws,bones from beasts that can be used in all kinds of crafts.
OK so from the responses, Mobs are added to the game by the devs for the purpose of crafting. Games with questing systems have done this too, not sure I see a uniqueness to a sandbox. The total reliance on crafting is more rare but again not unique. Skinning and mining and such are done in non-sandbox games. Is that the sole purpose of PvE then?
Most MMOs are combat games, with little else to do except combat. Most PVE mechanics are based on kill something, take its stuff, and get a reward of XP that contributes to progression. Quest XP is just a layer of XP reward to disguise farming as a productive event. In most cases, it's still just kill something and take its stuff, plus bonus XP when completed (slain or collect x items).
In a pure PVP sandbox, PVE wouldn't exist because there isn't an environment to fight with, only other players. Adding PVE farming to a PVP sandbox makes activity more diverse. Tieing PVE into crafting is a convenient solution because it provides a reason for having PVE fights.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
...Something that has always confused me, so if a pure sandbox has no quest system how do players drive PvE content?
That's probably one of the easiest things to get right in a sandbox MMORPG.
You don't have quests that give shiny rewards and you don't have rats dropping swords. All the items have to be crafted. Want a new backpack? Needs some leather. Where do you get leather? From hide. Where do you get hide? Kill some beasts. And there you have the demand for a backpack driving someone, not necessarily the one wanting the backpack, to do PvE.
Want a sword? Needs iron. Where to get it? In a mine. Where is the mine? In the mountains. What's there too? Bears.
This all day long. Im so sick of these games that let rats drop gear and what not. If your looking for gear, fight humanoids. Need cloth? harvest it or reuse scraps that may come from humanoids. Pelts make leather and leather can make gear. Pelts come from beast mobs. And not from a drop. You have to skin it for the pelts. Butchering can yeild items for cooking and even weapon or gear crafting. Pulling teeth,claws,bones from beasts that can be used in all kinds of crafts.
OK so from the responses, Mobs are added to the game by the devs for the purpose of crafting. Games with questing systems have done this too, not sure I see a uniqueness to a sandbox. The total reliance on crafting is more rare but again not unique. Skinning and mining and such are done in non-sandbox games. Is that the sole purpose of PvE then?
Sorry probably should have started my own thread.
Not for the soul purpose of crafting. But should a rat drop a dagger/chain helm or shield? Mobs should drop items that pretain to it.
The uniqueness is that mobs drop like items that go with that mob. Games today have some asinine drop mechanics. Also crafting in a vast majority of games today is worthless. Part of it has to do with drops.
And with Archage coming out, they are doing just about everthing you said couldn't be done.. So yeah.. cool story bro?
It's funny because Archeage is pretty restrictive on some things you can do. i.e, you can't raid an enemy castle without declearing war on them by using an item that drops from a mob on the third continent.
In fact, Archeage is trying to dodge most of the problems that Dewm posted by making most buildings indestructable unless it's a castle during a siege ( which is currently 50vs50 and no one outside of those 50 players have influence on the battle).
Guys, if your going to use archeage as an example of a sandbox game that allows you to a lot of things, instead of speculating, research the game or you will be disappointed.
Edit
I think what the op means is the fact that no mmorpg will appeal to everyone's definition of sandbox games, that's my take on it.
And with Archage coming out, they are doing just about everthing you said couldn't be done.. So yeah.. cool story bro?
It's funny because Archeage is pretty restrictive on some things you can do. i.e, you can't raid an enemy castle without declearing war on them by using an item that drops from a mob on the third continent.
In fact, Archeage is trying to dodge most of the problems that Dewm posted by making most buildings indestructable unless it's a castle during a siege ( which is currently 50vs50 and no one outside of those 50 players have influence on the battle).
Guys, if your going to use archeage as an example of a sandbox game that allows you to a lot of things, instead of speculating, research the game or you will be disappointed.
One term that I find increasingly annoying on this forum is "sandbox". Now, we all know what a sanbox is, right? It's the ideal MMO! In a sandbox it's like you're playing another life and not just a game. YOU affect the universe around you, and NPC's and players alike react to those actions, and you have to live with what you've done.
Now, I'm not here to argue for or against sandbox's (which I'm very fond of, especially with games like Skyrim and Minecraft). What I'm here to argue is that there will never be an MMO sandbox satiffactory to all of the people calling for one.
There are several insurmountable difficulties surrounding the developer of a sandbox, and I've organized them in a list format for neatness.
1. Too Much Stuff:
One of the first major difficulties one will find when building any remotely realistic sandbox is just how much stuff there is. What I mean by this is how many various items and entities would have to be coded in to make the world "real".
In a true sandbox if one entered some NPC's mansion (again, assuming the slightest bit of realism) they would find the place loaded with various types of furniture, jewelry, paintings, and an endless list of other objects. Such a game would require enormous amounts of RAM and HDD space, not even mentioning years upon years of development.
To be a true sandbox, all of these would have to be moveable or in the last affectable, as they would be in real life. Now it is true that most people are satisfied with how TES has handled it- a good half of the items one finds in a house are affectable, allowing one a somewhat good sense of realism.
But even this half-measure is impossible in an MMO, to be explained in number two.
2. "Massive" Multiplayer:
The second major difficulty facing a sandbox MMO is simply the fact that it IS an MMO, and that there are many players (and probability states that at least a few of them are going to be less than respectable citizens). Let us assume, for a moment, that some developer was able to accumulate enough capital to make a real sandbox MMO and has spent the better part of two decades doing so.
This new game, to be the "herald of a golden age of gaming", would very quickly look like several atomic bombs dropped on its surface in a few days. Within only weeks of launch, several of the games cities would be burning wrecks, the countryside would be laced with craters and burning farmsteads, and NPC houses would be ransacked of all posessions. The problem is simple- griefing.
For those who don't know the term, griefing is best defined as the purposeful destruction of both player and NPC property, and the general ruining of gameplay for other players. This problem is rampant on Minecraft multiplayer servers, and even after years of gameplay hasn't been completely resolved.
There are a couple ways to solve this. The Minecraft method is to make "plots", wherein only the player residing in said plot can do anything inside of it. This does, of course, completely ruin the realism feel. Another method is to have NPC guards patrolling about ready to stop any would-be criminals. There are several problems with this method.
First of all, there would have to be a highly-complex AI (and I think we all know how well AI's are in games nowadays) that would be capable of recognizing criminals and non-criminals, as it is entirely possible that a player DOES have to create a massive crater in the ground to, say, stop a bunch of criminals from burning down the village.
The difficulty in defining criminals and non-criminals is insurmountable (at least for now), and such a system would quickly result in much of the playerbase leaving out of irritation of being arrested and jailed while having not commited a crime.
Having player guards is quite possibly even worse than NPC guards, as players are quite apt to bring down randomized cruelty on to other players, and old vendetta's can very easily get in the way of being just.
But let us assume, just for a moment, that by some miracle a satisfactory anti-griefing system is devised as to disallow pure chaos but to allow some realism. The second problem with an MMO sanbox again relates to the simple question of the amount of players, and the idea of the sandbox.
The problem that emerges is that of compatibility. Take, for example, an event in-game where a small farming village is attacked by a horde of centaurs (GW2!). Let us assume that a group of players, through bravery and strength, is able to repel the attackers. That's all very nice and dandy- the village is safe and all is well.
And yet, what of the next group of players? Are they to be denied the fun and exciting thrill of battle? No. Unless you want to lost half of your playerbase, EVERYONE needs a shot at saving the village.
This time let us assume that the village is NOT saved. Lacking in numbers and skill, the second group of players is completely wiped out, and the village burns to the ground.
But wait, the village can't both be alive and dead, can it? We're not dealing with a cat and some poison inside of a box here, people, so don't be smartasses and start talking metaphysics. The problem we have here is, as stated previously, compatibility. What happens the next time the first group of players happens to pass the village? Will it be alive, or dead? If we're talking realism, the village can't POSSIBLY be alive and completely rebuilt after being razed to the ground.
The overarching problem of a massive multiplayer sandbox can be simply stated as this: there are too many players, and if you want to have a non-instanced world (which is necessary if you want realism) you can't also have a "dynamic" world where everyone takes part in the story. What you will always (ALWAYS) end up with is a themepark-esque style, possibly with an instanced side-story of your own that nobody else affects.
3. Login, Logout:
The third, and final problem that I'll cover here is that of story continuity. The problem of an MMO sandbox being realistic is that it is, at the end of the day, a game. In real life, you don't log out- you play as long as your life lasts. Philsophical debates aside, the problems that result from the log-in, log-out feature are many and present many difficulties for the new sandbox.
One of the first problems relates to PvP. If a guild logs out, leaving their castle undefended, another guild (from another timezone, possibly) can readily take the castle with little to no difficulty. What this quickly leads to- on a sandbox with PvP at least- is the power of a server/guild/clan/team being decided by timezones instead of skill or numbers. NPC guards are no solution to this, nor is having the players characters being controlled by an AI.
The second problem is slightly more petty and unimportant, admittedly, but nontheless impacts the realism of the game. In real life, one cannot simply POOF out of existence for a time, and then reappear in the same spot a few hours later.
4. Conclusion
My overall point is this everyone. While an MMO can DEFINITELY be better by adding more sandbox features, I am highly doubting the idea that there can ever or will ever be a "perfect" sandbox MMO that satisfies even the lowest standards of players. I love sandbox games myself, but I cringe at the thought of playing an MMO that publicizes itself as a sandbox because of the problems I went over above.
While I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me, I'd appreciate you actually reading what I've written before you rant for a good two paragraphs about how I'm wrong and a WoW fanboiz and should just stop playing MMO's if I hate them so much. So yeah, let the flaming begin.
TL;DR
If u want sandbox u no have enuf stuff. If u want sandbox u no have realism. If u want sandbox u no have affect on game. If u want sandbox u no have fairness. DURRRRRRRR...
This guy obviously never played SWG. I made it rain in my living room!
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Is a Sandbox-MMO possible? Change your Question...
Can MMOs be virtual worlds with different grades of freedom and significant player-world-interaction? Yes - it was done in the past and it will be done in the future.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One term that I find increasingly annoying on this forum is "sandbox". Now, we all know what a sanbox is, right? It's the ideal MMO! In a sandbox it's like you're playing another life and not just a game. YOU affect the universe around you, and NPC's and players alike react to those actions, and you have to live with what you've done.
Now, I'm not here to argue for or against sandbox's (which I'm very fond of, especially with games like Skyrim and Minecraft). What I'm here to argue is that there will never be an MMO sandbox satiffactory to all of the people calling for one.
There are several insurmountable difficulties surrounding the developer of a sandbox, and I've organized them in a list format for neatness.
1. Too Much Stuff:
One of the first major difficulties one will find when building any remotely realistic sandbox is just how much stuff there is. What I mean by this is how many various items and entities would have to be coded in to make the world "real".
In a true sandbox if one entered some NPC's mansion (again, assuming the slightest bit of realism) they would find the place loaded with various types of furniture, jewelry, paintings, and an endless list of other objects. Such a game would require enormous amounts of RAM and HDD space, not even mentioning years upon years of development.
To be a true sandbox, all of these would have to be moveable or in the last affectable, as they would be in real life. Now it is true that most people are satisfied with how TES has handled it- a good half of the items one finds in a house are affectable, allowing one a somewhat good sense of realism.
But even this half-measure is impossible in an MMO, to be explained in number two.
2. "Massive" Multiplayer:
The second major difficulty facing a sandbox MMO is simply the fact that it IS an MMO, and that there are many players (and probability states that at least a few of them are going to be less than respectable citizens). Let us assume, for a moment, that some developer was able to accumulate enough capital to make a real sandbox MMO and has spent the better part of two decades doing so.
This new game, to be the "herald of a golden age of gaming", would very quickly look like several atomic bombs dropped on its surface in a few days. Within only weeks of launch, several of the games cities would be burning wrecks, the countryside would be laced with craters and burning farmsteads, and NPC houses would be ransacked of all posessions. The problem is simple- griefing.
For those who don't know the term, griefing is best defined as the purposeful destruction of both player and NPC property, and the general ruining of gameplay for other players. This problem is rampant on Minecraft multiplayer servers, and even after years of gameplay hasn't been completely resolved.
There are a couple ways to solve this. The Minecraft method is to make "plots", wherein only the player residing in said plot can do anything inside of it. This does, of course, completely ruin the realism feel. Another method is to have NPC guards patrolling about ready to stop any would-be criminals. There are several problems with this method.
First of all, there would have to be a highly-complex AI (and I think we all know how well AI's are in games nowadays) that would be capable of recognizing criminals and non-criminals, as it is entirely possible that a player DOES have to create a massive crater in the ground to, say, stop a bunch of criminals from burning down the village.
The difficulty in defining criminals and non-criminals is insurmountable (at least for now), and such a system would quickly result in much of the playerbase leaving out of irritation of being arrested and jailed while having not commited a crime.
Having player guards is quite possibly even worse than NPC guards, as players are quite apt to bring down randomized cruelty on to other players, and old vendetta's can very easily get in the way of being just.
But let us assume, just for a moment, that by some miracle a satisfactory anti-griefing system is devised as to disallow pure chaos but to allow some realism. The second problem with an MMO sanbox again relates to the simple question of the amount of players, and the idea of the sandbox.
The problem that emerges is that of compatibility. Take, for example, an event in-game where a small farming village is attacked by a horde of centaurs (GW2!). Let us assume that a group of players, through bravery and strength, is able to repel the attackers. That's all very nice and dandy- the village is safe and all is well.
And yet, what of the next group of players? Are they to be denied the fun and exciting thrill of battle? No. Unless you want to lost half of your playerbase, EVERYONE needs a shot at saving the village.
This time let us assume that the village is NOT saved. Lacking in numbers and skill, the second group of players is completely wiped out, and the village burns to the ground.
But wait, the village can't both be alive and dead, can it? We're not dealing with a cat and some poison inside of a box here, people, so don't be smartasses and start talking metaphysics. The problem we have here is, as stated previously, compatibility. What happens the next time the first group of players happens to pass the village? Will it be alive, or dead? If we're talking realism, the village can't POSSIBLY be alive and completely rebuilt after being razed to the ground.
The overarching problem of a massive multiplayer sandbox can be simply stated as this: there are too many players, and if you want to have a non-instanced world (which is necessary if you want realism) you can't also have a "dynamic" world where everyone takes part in the story. What you will always (ALWAYS) end up with is a themepark-esque style, possibly with an instanced side-story of your own that nobody else affects.
3. Login, Logout:
The third, and final problem that I'll cover here is that of story continuity. The problem of an MMO sandbox being realistic is that it is, at the end of the day, a game. In real life, you don't log out- you play as long as your life lasts. Philsophical debates aside, the problems that result from the log-in, log-out feature are many and present many difficulties for the new sandbox.
One of the first problems relates to PvP. If a guild logs out, leaving their castle undefended, another guild (from another timezone, possibly) can readily take the castle with little to no difficulty. What this quickly leads to- on a sandbox with PvP at least- is the power of a server/guild/clan/team being decided by timezones instead of skill or numbers. NPC guards are no solution to this, nor is having the players characters being controlled by an AI.
The second problem is slightly more petty and unimportant, admittedly, but nontheless impacts the realism of the game. In real life, one cannot simply POOF out of existence for a time, and then reappear in the same spot a few hours later.
4. Conclusion
My overall point is this everyone. While an MMO can DEFINITELY be better by adding more sandbox features, I am highly doubting the idea that there can ever or will ever be a "perfect" sandbox MMO that satisfies even the lowest standards of players. I love sandbox games myself, but I cringe at the thought of playing an MMO that publicizes itself as a sandbox because of the problems I went over above.
While I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me, I'd appreciate you actually reading what I've written before you rant for a good two paragraphs about how I'm wrong and a WoW fanboiz and should just stop playing MMO's if I hate them so much. So yeah, let the flaming begin.
TL;DR
If u want sandbox u no have enuf stuff. If u want sandbox u no have realism. If u want sandbox u no have affect on game. If u want sandbox u no have fairness. DURRRRRRRR...
It can be done, the thing is, everyone wants UO or SWG alll over again and those games for all intents and purposes are gone.
If I could take EvE and throw in some dragons and high fantasy bulls**t, I would be CRAZY happy. I don't like EvE but the system they have is awesome.
And as an aside, really? You post that HUGE ASS post and then hit us with a TL;DR at the end?
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Is a Sandbox-MMO possible? Change your Question...
Can MMOs be virtual worlds with different grades of freedom and significant player-world-interaction? Yes - it was done in the past and it will be done in the future.
That is not his question.
His question is can you play a mmorpg and felt like you are living and breathing in a real world?
Some of you are more imaginated than other. But for the most the answer is no.
No matter how real a video game is, it's still a video game. It's hard to completely emulate a second life.
No: The reason no MMO will ever truely be a Sandbox is; all it takes is one theme park like element to be implemented and the game will be accused of being a themepark game by the sandbox purists.
An example. The overwelmingly sandbox game has quests: "That game isn't a sandbox it has quests!!!" will be the rallying cry of the purists.
On the other side of the coin; if a theme park adds one sandbox element, it isn't accused of being a sandbox. It is still considered a theme park.
Therefore; there will never be a sandbox MMO because, there will always be that "One Thing" sandbox purists don't believe belongs in a true Sand Box and the game will be labeled a themepark by the purists.
Let's make a thread where I state that an MMORPG can never be a sandbox, and imply a very narrow definition of sandbox in my OP! This surely won't end in a bunch of people arguing over the definition of sandbox!
This. Lets have our own definition of sandbox and then tell everyone else they are wrong even though the majority of the world uses the other definition..... It has gotten to the point where I cringe whenever someone writes the word "sandbox" because the few people who decide to come argue with the own definition of the word. It is funny how whenever someone says sandbox everyone knows what mechanics are being referred to....even the ones with their own definition.
I used to make up my own secret languages..... when I was like four years old.............
Comments
+1
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is a troll, but I'll bite.
Skyrim is not a sandbox. It is a great game; I enjoyed the heck out of it. But it is still scripted material presented in a less linear way than your traditional SPRPG. Still on rails, just shorter, more choice in which ride to ride.
Minecraft is not an MMO either, and although it lets you build however you want it is not much of a RPG either. (minecraft fans, don't rage on me, as I have not played but have read about it, so if I misrepresented the game just let me know).
1) Too Much Stuff - A sandbox does not HAVE to have every little thing interactable. The idea of a sandbox is simply an atmophere where the player gets to do what they want within the game's ruleset, and where progression does not follow a linear track. It does not have to be "real" as you state. It also does not have to have NPC's
We all know it is a game and while more interation is nice, it is not a necessity for a game.
2) MM - Once again you are not factoring in the ability for devs to make a ruleset. in Shadowbane, you could not randomly attack a building and destroy it, you first had to claim war (bane) the city, and a time is decided for the war to start. Though you could argue it takes away a sandbox feature of not being able to randomly destroy stuff, some rules are necessary to maintain a degree of order. Yes, greifing can be an issue but once again a well designed ruleset can aid in deterring/eliminating it. Also, AI does not have to be the deterent. In an FFA pvp sandbox, this is where safety in numbers/unity comes into play.
Your in game event example of centaurs is talking about a scripted event, which are not ussually in sandboxes. So once again, an invalid argument. In a sandbox, it would be more like players are attacking another player city. And yea, that event only happens once for the players who are there. THATS WHAT MAKES IT FUN; UNPREDICTABILITY! In a sandbox, you don't say, "oh, I'm going to do this prescripted event", you or others create an event that will be totally unique each time.
3) Login/Logout - Not an issue if the ruleset takes it into account. See example above.
4) Conclusion - Your conclusion is wrong. There have been (and still are) sandboxes that have satisfied players. From your writing I see you never had the chance to play SWG, UO, Shadowbane. Tell ya what, pick up Eve, DF, or MO. While not my favorite games, they will at least open your eyes a bit. And before you say "Those games are no good because of X", no game is perfect, and never will be in the eyes of the entire playerbase, because each has thier own opinion of a perfect game. But to write a wall of text on a subject you have not exerienced is silly
Often lurking, rarely posting
I agree. If mobs in the environment are KOS for the character mob, the character mob has three choices: avoid, evade, or fight.
This all day long. Im so sick of these games that let rats drop gear and what not. If your looking for gear, fight humanoids. Need cloth? harvest it or reuse scraps that may come from humanoids. Pelts make leather and leather can make gear. Pelts come from beast mobs. And not from a drop. You have to skin it for the pelts. Butchering can yeild items for cooking and even weapon or gear crafting. Pulling teeth,claws,bones from beasts that can be used in all kinds of crafts.
Smile
Great post, if not a little black and white for my taste.
First, as some of my fellow reply-ers suggested, your points are not impossibilities, but are really just challenges.
Second, some suggestions to overcome these challenges:
1. Items being removed by players over time
Create NPCs that can 'over time' add items to the game to replace the items taken by players.
Allow PCs to add items themselves to replace what others were taken.
2. Multiplayer state change issues over time
NPC Quest areas that are damaged can be fixed slowly over time by NPCs (ex. Farmers come in to rebuild house)
Allow PC occupation areas that are damaged to be fixed by PCs (ex. PCs repair the towers and fences, maybe rethinking their design)
3. In Game and Out of Game issues
For PvP - Schedulable defenses/attacks (ex. Limited windows to attack someone that is known far in advance ) - No veteran I ever worked with enjoyed a war where they couldnt periodically escape from and recover from the battles. Those who had positive experiences had opportunies to rest between battles in a safe area.
4. Perfect sandbox ever?
This was best answered in the move "The Matrix". Trial and error will slowly get us all closer to better and more fun sandbox games. Perfection is a great goal to work towards, but those who believe they can truly reach it, only find oblivian.
5. TL;DR
Dont give up. Keep brainstorming ideas and do your best to ignore those that discourage you from questioning the 'status quo'.
-Blitz
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
OK so from the responses, Mobs are added to the game by the devs for the purpose of crafting. Games with questing systems have done this too, not sure I see a uniqueness to a sandbox. The total reliance on crafting is more rare but again not unique. Skinning and mining and such are done in non-sandbox games. Is that the sole purpose of PvE then?
Sorry probably should have started my own thread.
PVE is something to do other than PVP.
Most MMOs are combat games, with little else to do except combat. Most PVE mechanics are based on kill something, take its stuff, and get a reward of XP that contributes to progression. Quest XP is just a layer of XP reward to disguise farming as a productive event. In most cases, it's still just kill something and take its stuff, plus bonus XP when completed (slain or collect x items).
In a pure PVP sandbox, PVE wouldn't exist because there isn't an environment to fight with, only other players. Adding PVE farming to a PVP sandbox makes activity more diverse. Tieing PVE into crafting is a convenient solution because it provides a reason for having PVE fights.
Not for the soul purpose of crafting. But should a rat drop a dagger/chain helm or shield? Mobs should drop items that pretain to it.
The uniqueness is that mobs drop like items that go with that mob. Games today have some asinine drop mechanics. Also crafting in a vast majority of games today is worthless. Part of it has to do with drops.
It's funny because Archeage is pretty restrictive on some things you can do. i.e, you can't raid an enemy castle without declearing war on them by using an item that drops from a mob on the third continent.
In fact, Archeage is trying to dodge most of the problems that Dewm posted by making most buildings indestructable unless it's a castle during a siege ( which is currently 50vs50 and no one outside of those 50 players have influence on the battle).
Guys, if your going to use archeage as an example of a sandbox game that allows you to a lot of things, instead of speculating, research the game or you will be disappointed.
Edit
I think what the op means is the fact that no mmorpg will appeal to everyone's definition of sandbox games, that's my take on it.
Anyone who thinks making a sandbox mmorpg should try the following games : Eve online, Mortal Online, and soon to be Salem .
J. B.
I think you confusing restrictive with structure.
Please do so, it's an interesting topic. How to drive PvE in a Sandbox MMORPG.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
http://www.twitch.tv/got_game_tv/ (livestream)
The War Z Shenanigans(youtube)
DayZ FUNTIME!
Mortal Online Vids
This guy obviously never played SWG. I made it rain in my living room!
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Is a Sandbox-MMO possible?
Change your Question...
Can MMOs be virtual worlds with different grades of freedom and significant player-world-interaction?
Yes - it was done in the past and it will be done in the future.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
They most definitely exist.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It can be done, the thing is, everyone wants UO or SWG alll over again and those games for all intents and purposes are gone.
If I could take EvE and throw in some dragons and high fantasy bulls**t, I would be CRAZY happy. I don't like EvE but the system they have is awesome.
And as an aside, really? You post that HUGE ASS post and then hit us with a TL;DR at the end?
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
That is not his question.
His question is can you play a mmorpg and felt like you are living and breathing in a real world?
Some of you are more imaginated than other. But for the most the answer is no.
No matter how real a video game is, it's still a video game. It's hard to completely emulate a second life.
No: The reason no MMO will ever truely be a Sandbox is; all it takes is one theme park like element to be implemented and the game will be accused of being a themepark game by the sandbox purists.
An example. The overwelmingly sandbox game has quests: "That game isn't a sandbox it has quests!!!" will be the rallying cry of the purists.
On the other side of the coin; if a theme park adds one sandbox element, it isn't accused of being a sandbox. It is still considered a theme park.
Therefore; there will never be a sandbox MMO because, there will always be that "One Thing" sandbox purists don't believe belongs in a true Sand Box and the game will be labeled a themepark by the purists.
This. Lets have our own definition of sandbox and then tell everyone else they are wrong even though the majority of the world uses the other definition..... It has gotten to the point where I cringe whenever someone writes the word "sandbox" because the few people who decide to come argue with the own definition of the word. It is funny how whenever someone says sandbox everyone knows what mechanics are being referred to....even the ones with their own definition.
I used to make up my own secret languages..... when I was like four years old.............