Originally posted by Xerith Or, you know, you could add that content directly to the game for free and players would have more to do for free.... The amount of BS from developers coming out of Gamescom this year is astounding.
hey, that ain't for free - you just paid $60 - you should get the whole game - including the stuff they preplanned to hold back for DLC
It amazes me that they could not predict there would be backlash for their obvious dollar grapping scheme. ME2 had the cerberus network which granted extra content (DLC equivalent) for free when you bought the game. ME3 then charges for it. I don't know maybe this is EA's business of "striking a balance" in maximizing profits and making the customers irate which has been going on for a very long time.
Given that some players can take months to complete a game, while others can blast through games in a matter of days, this means that providing extra content from the get-go is the only real way to fulfill all players' expectations.
to these people have no shame at all?how can one say this with a straight face?
It is also pretty sad that the new delivery platforms that allow for digital versions do not actually come cheaper than the old-fashioned boxed versions. In fact, the opposite is often true. They try to offer some crappy in-game item to justify the cost, but anyone with a basic understading of the supply chain can see that customers are not benefiting from these downloadable, digital versions...well, not benefiting anything else, but convinience. These version are typically also account bound, meaning that once you play through the campaing, you cannot resell the item.
Considering the cost saving that the sales of digital copies allow for the developers and publishers, it is simply amazing that consumers are not reaping any benefits.
It is an interesting logic that when we buy a digital copy, we still have to pay a price similar to MSRP that contains:
manufacturing cost - Minimal a DVD's cost pennies to make
packaging cost - Minimal boxes cost pennies
delivery cost. - Minimal distribution costs are not as much as you think
Plus for additional things that go produce and market the boxes, like various overheads, graphic design, research and development, marketing and marketing materials. - Digital distribution has its own similar overheads
I would expect to see at least somewhat lowered price, say 5-10 euros in comparison to the boxed price at the retail store. Today, I can order a boxed copy from a retailer for that much cheaper (release day).
Digital distibution is not that much cheaper and only a few comapnies can afford their own systems like Origin, Steam and Battlenet most of the others have to pay for access to these services as much as a shop so any difference in price is negligable to most of the gaming companies.
What you do not get with digital copies are the retailer margins (you still need to pay for service, if you don't have your own, but since there is no retail space in question, it should not be that high percentage). You also do not get returns or distribution costs. Also, digital distribution has significantly lower overheads. So in the essence digital copies should be around 5-10 euros cheaper than boxed ones.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
If you asked Mr. Fernando if in their goal to make sure DLC is available from day one has somehow influenced the amount of content at launch, I wonder if he would answer truefully. Because we all know that 10 years ago the game would of been longer and with more depth of play from day one. Developers didnt have a cost effective way in place to milk us. So it was actually in their best interest to make longer games, they had to make enough content at launch to hold us over until they could build box and ship more content. No DLC download mechanic was in place.
One of the problems is they have X to spend on making their game and since games take more money to make these dayss X doesnt go as far so we end up with shorter games at launch and developers then nickle and dimeing their fans with DLC funded by the sales. And as our friend Mr Fernando told us some of that DLC needs to ready at launch since games are SHORTER and EASIER then ever before.
Games are getting shorter and more expensive to make and irnonically this has benefited the developers not the gamers. Imagine another industry where we pay more for less of something and people out there think its actually a good thing, developers and gamers alike. I like DLC I like F2P games blaa blaa. I like givng people a little bit of money at a time even though I end up spending more in the long run.
I just dont see it that way.
How are they milking you? you don't have to buy it and if you feel the game wasn't worth the initial investment you don't buy another game from that company until you know its good value. When will the playerbase realise that with self control and self education you have the power and will always have the power. I'm not buying GW2 at release because I did not get into beta (yes I use marketing beta's as free trials) and I'm sure it'll be discounted in a couple of months time or there will be a fee trial because I have self control and I am not sucking up marketing rhetoric like many around here who will inevitably be outraged the game did not turn out what they thought it would be, but by then Ncsoft already have their money, so hard cheese is all they'd say. Gamers are their own worse enemies.
I dont get milked because I dont pay for DLC but obviosly MILLIONS of people do. So if I change the word I to the word gamers does that make more sense?
My point was games are shorter at launch because they can start delivering DLC immediately for an additional cost, this method was not available 10 to 12 years ago so developers had to make longer games to keep people busy until their expansions were ready.
I know this because Ive been gaming a long time, if someone was a new gamer the whole DLC from day one thing would just seem, well the way it has to be done.
How do you know that the millions who buy DLC don't think its good value. For me I'm pragmatic and understand games are much more expensive to make now than when I started playing home video games in 1982 and gamers would rage so much harder if they put up the box price every year so they have to be careful in how they raise prices or it can kill them, its a tough thing to balance so at least with DLC you get the choice to buy or not. Also EA have been losing money these last few years, THQ are in trouble, 38 studio's have gone under, Vivendi are looking to sell Activ/Blizz and I bet after this hard a resession many other studio's aren't raking it in but gamers seem to think that making gamne is a license to print money.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Given that some players can take months to complete a game, while others can blast through games in a matter of days, this means that providing extra content from the get-go is the only real way to fulfill all players' expectations.
to these people have no shame at all?how can one say this with a straight face?
Just pointing out that your quote makes it seem like I said this instead of the Bioware person I quoted.
What you do not get with digital copies are the retailer margins (you still need to pay for service, if you don't have your own, but since there is no retail space in question, it should not be that high percentage). You also do not get returns or distribution costs. Also, digital distribution has significantly lower overheads. So in the essence digital copies should be around 5-10 euros cheaper than boxed ones.
I can tell you for a fact that it is not. When I used to work at the biggest electronics retailer in the world the margin on video games was a $1. The only reason they carried games at all is because it brings people into the store.
As proof that day one DLC also works in terms of sales, Melo said that 53 percent of all sales for the first Dragon Age: Origins DLC pack -- which was released on the same day as the full game -- were made on release day.
So people were as easily sold on hype before playing as they are on the idea of continuing the actual game itself once they'd played it?
Day 1 DLC makes sense from a publishers standpoint. They make more money.
Day 1 DLC makes sense from a players standpoint if they hate keeping their money and prefer to buy incomplete games and paying extra for the rest of the content that was withheld from the original game in order to be bundle in the Day 1 DLC.
Day 1 DLC doesn't make sense to anyone not included above.
To be back in the good old day's of pre-dlc. Although dlc can be good, it can also cause the problem of a developer rushing a product out full of annying bug's and glitches that they patch later.
Some people also like to cause themselves pain to feel alive. It doesn't mean that it's good for them or society to make that happen.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
"Why did last gen games take weeks or more to beat?"
Can't recall beating a game on PS2 in a matter of days and I had more time back then to play but can beat games with less time now then before. DLC is the reason why. I use to get a complete game no extra cost now i get half a game for $60 and then shell out another $60 to enjoy the rest of the game.
Reading through the comments of this post made me think that some of you really don't understand how works.
Entirely from a Business Standpoint releasing D1DLC is a smart decision because as the Interviewee stated it boasts intials sales for day because INVESTORS look for these figures and if companies SUCH as bioware can get this massive intial figure it puts a green light on anything else that might come out with this company. How many titles have flopped because there wasn't a high day one sales figure?
Gamers are the first ones to complain in MMORPGs that once they reach cap there is nothing to do because they rushed through content so quickly in order to get top. Isn't this the exact same concept that we are are so use to in subscription model games? What is different about reaching the end of a game and [purchasing and playing the DLC because "Huh! I enjoyed this game, lets see if there is any more content that I can play"?
Its easy to lose sight of the fact that we, as consumers feel wronged when companies do things like this but personally, get use to it because this is the way the market as competitive and diverse as the one we are apart of works, it ain't going away more companies are going to get on the bandwagon.
Day 1 DLC is a scam. If you have time to complete content before or at release, it should be downloadable for free. It's not even debatable. It's a scam. End of story.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
It is also pretty sad that the new delivery platforms that allow for digital versions do not actually come cheaper than the old-fashioned boxed versions. In fact, the opposite is often true. They try to offer some crappy in-game item to justify the cost, but anyone with a basic understading of the supply chain can see that customers are not benefiting from these downloadable, digital versions...well, not benefiting anything else, but convinience. These version are typically also account bound, meaning that once you play through the campaing, you cannot resell the item.
Considering the cost saving that the sales of digital copies allow for the developers and publishers, it is simply amazing that consumers are not reaping any benefits.
It is an interesting logic that when we buy a digital copy, we still have to pay a price similar to MSRP that contains:
manufacturing cost
packaging cost
delivery cost.
Plus for additional things that go produce and market the boxes, like various overheads, graphic design, research and development, marketing and marketing materials.
I would expect to see at least somewhat lowered price, say 5-10 euros in comparison to the boxed price at the retail store. Today, I can order a boxed copy from a retailer for that much cheaper (release day).
You have good points, but you also have to take into account the consumer's part in buying a retail copy of a game. They have to
A) get off their fat lazy ass and drive to the store "kids prolly don't have a car"
said store could be fairly far "gas ain't cheap"
c)what if the store doesn't have it, store could be packed, could get into a car accident along the way, car might blow up. Pretty much put X something will happen for C lol.
Honestly, if this becomes a problem that consumers actually start noticing all developers have to say is "its convenient ". Example Convenience stores, expensive but people still pay, fast food can be expensive but its convenient. Kinda like day one dlc amiritebros?
Melo argued that on the occasions when BioWare hasn't provided DLC from day one, those players who complete the game quickly then complained that there was nothing more to play and asked for extra content. If DLC isn't provided for these players, they may well move on to a different game and never come back to play DLC later on.
As proof that day one DLC also works in terms of sales, Melo said that 53 percent of all sales for the first Dragon Age: Origins DLC pack -- which was released on the same day as the full game -- were made on release day.
This was like the worst example that he could possibly use. The DragonAge1 DLC was so soon in the game, you saw it as soon as like 3-4 hours into the game. It was ridiculous that you get to your first campsite and 2 of the 8 npcs you talk to offer DLC content that costs extra from the $60 you spent on the game. At the time I thought it was the dumbest thing i've ever seen. Yeah if you've beaten the game, and they add DLC a month later to add story to an existing character or even continue the main story that's fine, but 4 hours into the game? No. No no no. That's just greed.
I dunno I think DLC is nice. I mean, I think of it this way. I'm a working class stiff with moderate investments elsewhere. I plunk in about 60-70 hours of work a week and somehow manage to cram 2 hours of gaming in each night with a woman + child. You never see me complain about content. Even at 260 hours played on my with doctor in D3, I am not complaining whereis the unemployed tard who has 400+ hours on his character is.
So I think the pure genius behind this is... people who, you know.. contribute to society? will be able to buy the content after they have enjoyed the content ( AS IT WAS MEANT TO BE DESIGNED) and those who play hardcore, live off of mom's hot pockets can go scrounge the couch for the DLC funds or perhaps be forced to live life outside of the computer room . Plus I speak from experience, I used to be one of those losers who though raiding and playing 24/7 was a life. So in short, DLC doesn't bother me. A few dollars isn't anything.
"Why did last gen games take weeks or more to beat?"
Can't recall beating a game on PS2 in a matter of days and I had more time back then to play but can beat games with less time now then before. DLC is the reason why. I use to get a complete game no extra cost now i get half a game for $60 and then shell out another $60 to enjoy the rest of the game.
I would agree with this if you compared the two time frames as a whole. But, it's not absolutely true either. When I was younger, I remember saving up my money and buying a game called Strider. I don't recall which system it was for exactly, but it was a cartidge based system. I beat it in a few hours. Something I'd never done with any other games of that type before. I remember being horribly mad about it. It felt cheap. I felt ripped off compared to the experiences I'd had with other games.
I feel the same thing with MMOs. Earlier games seemed to have more to do and keep me entertained much longer. Even if some of that was because of insane level grinds. New games are often incomplete on launch with promised features set to release in patches later. The performance is often iffy. The amount of bugs. And, the overall amount of entertainment just seems so much smaller.
The systems that were supposed to ensure better quality seem to have completely backfired in how they are used today.
SNIP: this means that providing extra content from the get-go is the only real way to fulfill all players' expectations.
SNIP: As proof that day one DLC also works in terms of sales, Melo said that 53 percent of all sales for the first Dragon Age: Origins DLC pack -- which was released on the same day as the full game -- were made on release day.
There is NO WAY to fulfill ALL players expectations.
Case in point.
The very idea that having to have DLC available on the FIRST day is the reason why I NEVER BUY DLC...it was first used as a quick money grab, you have 100% a game made, but only place 99% of it on the retail disk and then turn around and sell the other 1% for even more money.
No thank you. That is 100% BS. I have passed on dozens of games because of greed like that, I refuse to give money to companies that do things like that with one single exception...Bethesda. I will buy their games because of the MODDING community that creates endless amounts of content and upgrades to the games...but I will not give them one single dime for their DLCs. Why pay them when actual PLAYERS can create even BETTER content, for free.
Comments
how about a poll
1/ who wants day one DLC with a additional charge
2/who wants day one DLC included in the game ( included in the cost of the game )
hey, that ain't for free - you just paid $60 - you should get the whole game - including the stuff they preplanned to hold back for DLC
It amazes me that they could not predict there would be backlash for their obvious dollar grapping scheme. ME2 had the cerberus network which granted extra content (DLC equivalent) for free when you bought the game. ME3 then charges for it. I don't know maybe this is EA's business of "striking a balance" in maximizing profits and making the customers irate which has been going on for a very long time.
btw...
NOBODY IS WANTING DAY 1 DLC
they want it after 2-4 weeks.
to these people have no shame at all?how can one say this with a straight face?
Source
I think the above is a pretty typical cost.
What you do not get with digital copies are the retailer margins (you still need to pay for service, if you don't have your own, but since there is no retail space in question, it should not be that high percentage). You also do not get returns or distribution costs. Also, digital distribution has significantly lower overheads. So in the essence digital copies should be around 5-10 euros cheaper than boxed ones.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Bioware sure is getting whiny after their MMO bombed..
I smell bitterness.
loved Neverwinter Nights though!
How do you know that the millions who buy DLC don't think its good value. For me I'm pragmatic and understand games are much more expensive to make now than when I started playing home video games in 1982 and gamers would rage so much harder if they put up the box price every year so they have to be careful in how they raise prices or it can kill them, its a tough thing to balance so at least with DLC you get the choice to buy or not. Also EA have been losing money these last few years, THQ are in trouble, 38 studio's have gone under, Vivendi are looking to sell Activ/Blizz and I bet after this hard a resession many other studio's aren't raking it in but gamers seem to think that making gamne is a license to print money.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Just pointing out that your quote makes it seem like I said this instead of the Bioware person I quoted.
I can tell you for a fact that it is not. When I used to work at the biggest electronics retailer in the world the margin on video games was a $1. The only reason they carried games at all is because it brings people into the store.
Day 1 DLC makes sense from a publishers standpoint. They make more money.
Day 1 DLC makes sense from a players standpoint if they hate keeping their money and prefer to buy incomplete games and paying extra for the rest of the content that was withheld from the original game in order to be bundle in the Day 1 DLC.
Day 1 DLC doesn't make sense to anyone not included above.
Some people also like to cause themselves pain to feel alive. It doesn't mean that it's good for them or society to make that happen.
Maybe a dev should answer this.
"Why did last gen games take weeks or more to beat?"
Can't recall beating a game on PS2 in a matter of days and I had more time back then to play but can beat games with less time now then before. DLC is the reason why. I use to get a complete game no extra cost now i get half a game for $60 and then shell out another $60 to enjoy the rest of the game.
Reading through the comments of this post made me think that some of you really don't understand how works.
Entirely from a Business Standpoint releasing D1DLC is a smart decision because as the Interviewee stated it boasts intials sales for day because INVESTORS look for these figures and if companies SUCH as bioware can get this massive intial figure it puts a green light on anything else that might come out with this company. How many titles have flopped because there wasn't a high day one sales figure?
Gamers are the first ones to complain in MMORPGs that once they reach cap there is nothing to do because they rushed through content so quickly in order to get top. Isn't this the exact same concept that we are are so use to in subscription model games? What is different about reaching the end of a game and [purchasing and playing the DLC because "Huh! I enjoyed this game, lets see if there is any more content that I can play"?
Its easy to lose sight of the fact that we, as consumers feel wronged when companies do things like this but personally, get use to it because this is the way the market as competitive and diverse as the one we are apart of works, it ain't going away more companies are going to get on the bandwagon.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
You have good points, but you also have to take into account the consumer's part in buying a retail copy of a game. They have to
A) get off their fat lazy ass and drive to the store "kids prolly don't have a car"
c)what if the store doesn't have it, store could be packed, could get into a car accident along the way, car might blow up. Pretty much put X something will happen for C lol.
Honestly, if this becomes a problem that consumers actually start noticing all developers have to say is "its convenient ". Example Convenience stores, expensive but people still pay, fast food can be expensive but its convenient. Kinda like day one dlc amiritebros?
This was like the worst example that he could possibly use. The DragonAge1 DLC was so soon in the game, you saw it as soon as like 3-4 hours into the game. It was ridiculous that you get to your first campsite and 2 of the 8 npcs you talk to offer DLC content that costs extra from the $60 you spent on the game. At the time I thought it was the dumbest thing i've ever seen. Yeah if you've beaten the game, and they add DLC a month later to add story to an existing character or even continue the main story that's fine, but 4 hours into the game? No. No no no. That's just greed.
I dunno I think DLC is nice. I mean, I think of it this way. I'm a working class stiff with moderate investments elsewhere. I plunk in about 60-70 hours of work a week and somehow manage to cram 2 hours of gaming in each night with a woman + child. You never see me complain about content. Even at 260 hours played on my with doctor in D3, I am not complaining whereis the unemployed tard who has 400+ hours on his character is.
So I think the pure genius behind this is... people who, you know.. contribute to society? will be able to buy the content after they have enjoyed the content ( AS IT WAS MEANT TO BE DESIGNED) and those who play hardcore, live off of mom's hot pockets can go scrounge the couch for the DLC funds or perhaps be forced to live life outside of the computer room
. Plus I speak from experience, I used to be one of those losers who though raiding and playing 24/7 was a life. So in short, DLC doesn't bother me. A few dollars isn't anything.
Idiot devs.
This is why they ALSO NEED Player-Driven and Created Content. These devs just don't get it. None of them do.
You need both content and player-driven content. SPORPGs are not going to cut it anymore. Everyone has been there and done that with WoW & EQ.
Does anyone else see the absolute irony in BIOWARE giving other game devs financial advise?
They have created the absolute worst debacle in gaming, MMO or otherwise, ever.
Makes me wonder if Madoff is willing to do fiscal reporting seminars if he ever sees the light of day?
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
I would agree with this if you compared the two time frames as a whole. But, it's not absolutely true either. When I was younger, I remember saving up my money and buying a game called Strider. I don't recall which system it was for exactly, but it was a cartidge based system. I beat it in a few hours. Something I'd never done with any other games of that type before. I remember being horribly mad about it. It felt cheap. I felt ripped off compared to the experiences I'd had with other games.
I feel the same thing with MMOs. Earlier games seemed to have more to do and keep me entertained much longer. Even if some of that was because of insane level grinds. New games are often incomplete on launch with promised features set to release in patches later. The performance is often iffy. The amount of bugs. And, the overall amount of entertainment just seems so much smaller.
The systems that were supposed to ensure better quality seem to have completely backfired in how they are used today.
There is NO WAY to fulfill ALL players expectations.
Case in point.
The very idea that having to have DLC available on the FIRST day is the reason why I NEVER BUY DLC...it was first used as a quick money grab, you have 100% a game made, but only place 99% of it on the retail disk and then turn around and sell the other 1% for even more money.
No thank you. That is 100% BS. I have passed on dozens of games because of greed like that, I refuse to give money to companies that do things like that with one single exception...Bethesda. I will buy their games because of the MODDING community that creates endless amounts of content and upgrades to the games...but I will not give them one single dime for their DLCs. Why pay them when actual PLAYERS can create even BETTER content, for free.