Honestly, I think you should really ask the question:
Does it even matter if GW2 copied feature X from game Y?
Almost every single video game is largely copied from previous games. Sure, some have some original things in them, but the VAST MAJORITY of things are copied. And there is really nothing wrong with this. It's how we, as a society, collaborate creatively. One team builds on another team's accomplishments.
I mean if you look at this from a high level, GW2 has tons of things in common with an SPRPG like the Witcher 2. They both use 3D models, fantasy theme, similar weapons, actiony combat, hit point system, cooldowns for skills, etc. etc.
So my point is, if we're going to accept all these other "copied" features...then why make a big deal about dynamic events? It's just another feature that may or may not have been influenced by other games.
In the end, all that matters is that the game actually improves upon most of its influences.
i have to point out, this is the second reference i've seen reminding me of Sir Isaac Newton who said "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." In reference to his great achievements being in part due to the many great works before him.
earlier the notion of simultaneous invention was brought up. also reminding me of Sir Isaac Newton and how he simultaneously invented calculus along with (but independantly apart from) Gottfried Leibniz.
not trying to derail the topic, i'm just a nerd and find these things interesting, maybe someone else does as well..
in any case, i bring them up to show this isn't stuff specific to this genre, this industry, or even this decade.
thanks for the good post Creslin, we can usually count on you for such posts.
Thanks Ramanadjinn . Oddly enough, I was thinking of that quote when I wrote it lol.
And like you implied, simultaneous invention isn't really all that uncommon. As a society, we naturally collaborate in just about every field, with one party frequently taking the "next" step" in another party's work. So it's really not a big deal for two independent parties to take the "next step" at the same time.
Honestly, I think you should really ask the question:
Does it even matter if GW2 copied feature X from game Y?
Almost every single video game is largely copied from previous games. Sure, some have some original things in them, but the VAST MAJORITY of things are copied. And there is really nothing wrong with this. It's how we, as a society, collaborate creatively. One team builds on another team's accomplishments.
I mean if you look at this from a high level, GW2 has tons of things in common with an SPRPG like the Witcher 2. They both use 3D models, fantasy theme, similar weapons, actiony combat, hit point system, cooldowns for skills, etc. etc.
So my point is, if we're going to accept all these other "copied" features...then why make a big deal about dynamic events? It's just another feature that may or may not have been influenced by other games.
In the end, all that matters is that the game actually improves upon most of its influences.
i have to point out, this is the second reference i've seen reminding me of Sir Isaac Newton who said "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." In reference to his great achievements being in part due to the many great works before him.
earlier the notion of simultaneous invention was brought up. also reminding me of Sir Isaac Newton and how he simultaneously invented calculus along with (but independantly apart from) Gottfried Leibniz.
not trying to derail the topic, i'm just a nerd and find these things interesting, maybe someone else does as well..
in any case, i bring them up to show this isn't stuff specific to this genre, this industry, or even this decade.
thanks for the good post Creslin, we can usually count on you for such posts.
^Are you Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory?
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Honestly, I think you should really ask the question:
Does it even matter if GW2 copied feature X from game Y?
Almost every single video game is largely copied from previous games. Sure, some have some original things in them, but the VAST MAJORITY of things are copied. And there is really nothing wrong with this. It's how we, as a society, collaborate creatively. One team builds on another team's accomplishments.
I mean if you look at this from a high level, GW2 has tons of things in common with an SPRPG like the Witcher 2. They both use 3D models, fantasy theme, similar weapons, actiony combat, hit point system, cooldowns for skills, etc. etc.
So my point is, if we're going to accept all these other "copied" features...then why make a big deal about dynamic events? It's just another feature that may or may not have been influenced by other games.
In the end, all that matters is that the game actually improves upon most of its influences.
i have to point out, this is the second reference i've seen reminding me of Sir Isaac Newton who said "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." In reference to his great achievements being in part due to the many great works before him.
earlier the notion of simultaneous invention was brought up. also reminding me of Sir Isaac Newton and how he simultaneously invented calculus along with (but independantly apart from) Gottfried Leibniz.
not trying to derail the topic, i'm just a nerd and find these things interesting, maybe someone else does as well..
in any case, i bring them up to show this isn't stuff specific to this genre, this industry, or even this decade.
thanks for the good post Creslin, we can usually count on you for such posts.
But was calculus simultaneously invented or was it simultaneously discovered?
Copied means directly copy and pasting stuff in. They took stuff from games like Rift and Warhammer, yes, but its not really a copy. Can you claim they are being 'original' by having it in and being the 'first'? No, but truthfully its hard to give credit to anyone being the first to do it. To get a first in an MMO is a pretty big achievement. While GW2 really isn't the first to do anything in particular, it doesn't mean they can be discredited either for their work.
Enjoy the game for what it is. Its up to the user how they like it and if it spins things in the right way. Just don't go about lieing to make a game look like its completely original, nor lieing about a game to make it look worst that it took something word from word from another game exactly as it was.
It does not look like a direct copy, much like other games, GW2 have feature from older games. The only thing is hey improve on it. If this is bad, why has no one been jailed for making a wow clone?
Enter the world of Magic Earth, dragona.sc.gameclub.com
Quite possibly inspired by both of those systems. I can see the similarities. Taking the random spawning of rifts coupled with a storyline for each 'public quest'
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
True, Tabula Rasa was the first to try automated versions of live dev events, but also RIFT was originally Heroes of Telara and was supposed to have dynamic events for quests, but they couldn’t get past the technical difficulties, Arenanet succeeded in this very complicated programming task, and TRION settled for limited the system of semi dynamic spawns. The point is that GW2 is the first to take this idea that has been worked on for nearly a decade to its logical conclusion. It deserves credit for that, as does the next mmo to take dynamics even further.
I don't see how people can compare Rift's rifts to GW2 DEs (can say anything on Warhammer as never played it). Rift had pretty much invasions and all it had was patroling mobs from the early zones I saw. GW2 had a purpose behind all their DEs and it had a sense of fitting in the world while Rift seem like random spawns is all.
copied the concept? sure. but comparing war's and rift's event to gw2's is like comparing .... i dunno... vhs to hd: more evolved, generally better in every way, and once you use the latter you'll never go back.
edit: the above is a general response to the idea (which has been thrown around a lot). however, more on topic: interesting read, op. glad that gw2 got to see rift and war try them out first and learn from them lol.
Oh my, I still wonder how many people read the OP?
Maybe I misread it but I swear it seems as if the OP is saying they where not copying each other at all O.O
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
GW2 did not copy Rift's rift invasions and Warhammer's public quests and Rift did not copy Warhammer public quests. They were all innovative at their moment..but GW2 dev team outdid Warhammer and Rift on dynamic event idea.
Seriously, you felt the need to write that entire wall of text, which i did read btw, to try to show a very loose "proof" that arenanet didnt "copy" an idea from warhammer online?
I'm sorry, but, no, just... no. First and foremost, who wrote what on a napkin and had what in development means nothing, at all. All that matters and all that anybody cares about is who got the product to market first. This has happened a bajillion times throughout history, where even inferior products became the norm because someones great idea was never brought to fruition, or brought to fruition late.
So, as far as who was first to release "dynamic" events, was actually Rift. Yes, they were an evolution of Warhammer's public quests. So, Rift didnt technically invent them, so much as invent the idea of them being able to pop up anywhere, anytime.
Where Rift deserves credit is for their server technology. They were years ahead of every other MMO company in bringing server tech that allowed them to make real time updates to the ingame world. Its just now that other games are releasing with similar levels of server tech.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
RIFT was built by many ex WAR developers. The two systems in those games are somewhat similar. GW2's is much different and really didn't stand on the shoulders of RIFT and WAR.
RIFT and WAR's PQ's involve predictable stages that involve a timer. Each 'stage' has increasing difficulty.
Guidl Wars 2's Dynamic events don't work this way at all. They are 'chains' and not just multi-staged events. For example. A young boy is collecting armor pieces so he can make a Snow-Norn army. You collect the pieces and then he takes off running. Nothing in the game tells you to even follow him. It looks like the quest is over. But, if you follow the boy a couple football fields away, he starts to build the 'Snow-Norn'. Again, nothing on the map says to watch this - it's just happening on your screen. Then, some grawl come out and get scared of them and run away. Other grawl, including a Shaman recognize them as fake soldiers. The shaman turns the army into evil elementals that attack the city. Suddenly a new dynamic event starts where we have to kill the shaman that are controlling the elementals.
That long story illustrates how GW2's system is very different than RIFTS and WAR's and shouldn't be in the same category since they are so diverse and not really done in stages. They are 'chains' which are completely different.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
although development of the 3 started at the same time it doesnt mean that the quest systems were already decided upon. just by comparing the three you clearly see that the ones released later were more complex than the other, suggesting that they each improved upon their predecessor.
warhammer: scripted linear quests
rift: scripted linear quests with a variety of timers/triggers
gw2: scripted quest webs with a variety of timers/triggers
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Oh my, I still wonder how many people read the OP?
Maybe I misread it but I swear it seems as if the OP is saying they where not copying each other at all O.O
I think it's how he formatted it. Not sure if intentional, but I think it was.
I mean his tl:dr pretty much states that what he mean is that they haven't copied each other.
I think he should of went with a better title.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Comments
Thanks Ramanadjinn
. Oddly enough, I was thinking of that quote when I wrote it lol.
And like you implied, simultaneous invention isn't really all that uncommon. As a society, we naturally collaborate in just about every field, with one party frequently taking the "next" step" in another party's work. So it's really not a big deal for two independent parties to take the "next step" at the same time.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
^Are you Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory?
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
But was calculus simultaneously invented or was it simultaneously discovered?
Copied means directly copy and pasting stuff in. They took stuff from games like Rift and Warhammer, yes, but its not really a copy. Can you claim they are being 'original' by having it in and being the 'first'? No, but truthfully its hard to give credit to anyone being the first to do it. To get a first in an MMO is a pretty big achievement. While GW2 really isn't the first to do anything in particular, it doesn't mean they can be discredited either for their work.
Enjoy the game for what it is. Its up to the user how they like it and if it spins things in the right way. Just don't go about lieing to make a game look like its completely original, nor lieing about a game to make it look worst that it took something word from word from another game exactly as it was.
Enter the world of Magic Earth, dragona.sc.gameclub.com
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
True, Tabula Rasa was the first to try automated versions of live dev events, but also RIFT was originally Heroes of Telara and was supposed to have dynamic events for quests, but they couldn’t get past the technical difficulties, Arenanet succeeded in this very complicated programming task, and TRION settled for limited the system of semi dynamic spawns. The point is that GW2 is the first to take this idea that has been worked on for nearly a decade to its logical conclusion. It deserves credit for that, as does the next mmo to take dynamics even further.
copied the concept? sure. but comparing war's and rift's event to gw2's is like comparing .... i dunno... vhs to hd: more evolved, generally better in every way, and once you use the latter you'll never go back.
edit: the above is a general response to the idea (which has been thrown around a lot). however, more on topic: interesting read, op. glad that gw2 got to see rift and war try them out first and learn from them lol.
Oh my, I still wonder how many people read the OP?
Maybe I misread it but I swear it seems as if the OP is saying they where not copying each other at all O.O
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Seriously, you felt the need to write that entire wall of text, which i did read btw, to try to show a very loose "proof" that arenanet didnt "copy" an idea from warhammer online?
I'm sorry, but, no, just... no. First and foremost, who wrote what on a napkin and had what in development means nothing, at all. All that matters and all that anybody cares about is who got the product to market first. This has happened a bajillion times throughout history, where even inferior products became the norm because someones great idea was never brought to fruition, or brought to fruition late.
So, as far as who was first to release "dynamic" events, was actually Rift. Yes, they were an evolution of Warhammer's public quests. So, Rift didnt technically invent them, so much as invent the idea of them being able to pop up anywhere, anytime.
Where Rift deserves credit is for their server technology. They were years ahead of every other MMO company in bringing server tech that allowed them to make real time updates to the ingame world. Its just now that other games are releasing with similar levels of server tech.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I think it's how he formatted it. Not sure if intentional, but I think it was.
RIFT was built by many ex WAR developers. The two systems in those games are somewhat similar. GW2's is much different and really didn't stand on the shoulders of RIFT and WAR.
RIFT and WAR's PQ's involve predictable stages that involve a timer. Each 'stage' has increasing difficulty.
Guidl Wars 2's Dynamic events don't work this way at all. They are 'chains' and not just multi-staged events. For example. A young boy is collecting armor pieces so he can make a Snow-Norn army. You collect the pieces and then he takes off running. Nothing in the game tells you to even follow him. It looks like the quest is over. But, if you follow the boy a couple football fields away, he starts to build the 'Snow-Norn'. Again, nothing on the map says to watch this - it's just happening on your screen. Then, some grawl come out and get scared of them and run away. Other grawl, including a Shaman recognize them as fake soldiers. The shaman turns the army into evil elementals that attack the city. Suddenly a new dynamic event starts where we have to kill the shaman that are controlling the elementals.
That long story illustrates how GW2's system is very different than RIFTS and WAR's and shouldn't be in the same category since they are so diverse and not really done in stages. They are 'chains' which are completely different.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
its the natural evolution of the mmorpg.
grinding mobs->npc quests-> scripted quests?
although development of the 3 started at the same time it doesnt mean that the quest systems were already decided upon. just by comparing the three you clearly see that the ones released later were more complex than the other, suggesting that they each improved upon their predecessor.
warhammer: scripted linear quests
rift: scripted linear quests with a variety of timers/triggers
gw2: scripted quest webs with a variety of timers/triggers
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
I mean his tl:dr pretty much states that what he mean is that they haven't copied each other.
I think he should of went with a better title.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Henry Ford copied the wheel from Ug the caveman. Lawsuits ensue.
Newsflash: technology is invented so that it can be used.
Fucking MMO players are so stupid.
Yah, that was my intention. "They were not copying each other". I would agree with you Rizel, I should've came with a better title.
[Edit] Yah its a late post.