I'm very sorry Funcom isn't doing as well as they hoped. This is people's living on the line here, it's not funny. And as someone already said, the devs had the guts to make the game they wanted without following the crowd. Don't get me wrong, I have a couple issues with the game, but overall I find it solid and enjoyable and worthy to remain in this market. But because of the timing of release with the fierce competition and the shift away from traditional payment models, I don't suppose it will remain a sub game long. I hope it survives and continues to grow, though.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I've pretty much come to the point where I just play the game and enjoy it while it lasts. That may be 3 months or 3 years or longer. People are going to pick and prod and predict doom for whatever reason they may have.
I love the game, therefore, I support the company that made the game.
It's #2 because the box was 50% off over the weekend, which in of itself is a rather bad sign for a game that is so new, and likely an attempt to make the investment report look better.
Unfortunately, that will mean that this quarter's report will be considerably less useful. Numbers of subs one month from now will be a much better judge of retention rate than any information we could get today (not that they're likely to share) as the surge of sales from 50% off will be past their 30 days and GW2 will have been out for 3 weeks. MoP won't have come out yet at that point but WoW explansions and how they effect the market are more of a known factor at this point.
Interesting post, I think it's blatantly obvious to anybody that looks at Funcom as a company that they are in trouble. Whether they can pull themselves back from this I don't know, they have had similar trouble in the past and managed to continue. But the whole gaming world was different then and more robust. We have an average decline in video game sales as whole.
Overall TSW seems a little like a 'marmite' game, you either love it or hate it, and there isn't much in between. I don't think that bodes well for the game at the moment with initial subs. I also don't think Funcom have learnt anything from AOC, they have just gone away and made a game that they wanted to make. That takes guts I will give them that, but it also is a bit misguided.
The only thing that does concern me is I don't think there has been enough marketing. After playing Darksiders II yesterday and watching TV, up comes a TV advert for the same game. TSW has never been 'in my face' with regards to knowing of it's existence. Apart from an email from Funcom and adverts on this site, I don't think I have seen anything else. Black Ops II every other day I get something related to that game, and it will just ramp up from now until release. Skyrim fostered lots of interest in the game prior to release, I was seeing live action trailers and all sorts. With TSW I have to search for information about the game. Perhaps their problems are just down to bad marketing because the people that like the game seem to really like the game.
Last article I read for video game sales as was retailer only(and not secondary sales, just initial) as well as not including any digital downloads. It only spelled doom and gloom which has been continuing tread, but I would like to see something showing the whole projections and not one shrinking market of video game sales.
Yes and failed games don't get high sales numbers ... well, that is if you ignore Age of Conan lol. Sorry, means squat. AoC sold more and faster... So while I'm sure you had a point I don't think this means as much as you want it to.
Yes and failed games don't get high sales numbers ... well, that is if you ignore Age of Conan lol. Sorry, means squat. AoC sold more and faster... So while I'm sure you had a point I don't think this means as much as you want it to.
ive been one of the negative regarding the stock itself, as it was clear that it didnt sell as much as wel all hoped. There were lots of signs, like the lifetime sub, xfire numbers, lack of new dimensions just to name a few.
Ive been positive about the game itself however, and its good to see that the game still sells, last i checked it was no 17 on steam.
But this thread has nothing to do with the game. Its written by a person that really hope that funcom will go bankrupt, and it seems that quite a few posters hope that as well.
Well that would be a damn shame. This is one of few companies that dares to try something new with every game they make. Sometimes, they fail, sometimes they fail hard, but they have a little gem in TSW.
Can they get and hold 250-300k subs they will be profitable. Thats certainly not mission impossible.
IDK if the situation is really that bad for Funcom, but it's safe to guess that TSW isn't doing as well as they've been hoping.
I'm a bit surprised by this.
Despite Funcom's tarnished reputation, TSW is a fair attempt at a different MMORPG.
I could never get into the horror genre, but from what I've seen and managed to play, the game has many innovative/unusual and interesting features, funny dialogues and NPCs, plus it's geared toward a more mature public. Not to mention that from the interviews it was clear how Tørnquist, for example, really poured a lot into the story and the basic concept. It also looked like Funcom wanted to avoid the mistakes they made with AoC, and there was no major backlash at release.
I honestly thought the game would garner a bigger response.
This year we had some expensive games coming out, each of them bringing something different to the table, something that should attract players, but still many of these games are struggling.
SW:ToR (innovation with how the story is conveyed - cutscenes + popular IP, popular developer); Kingdoms of Amalur (originally meant as MMORPG, changed into a single-player game before release), which negatively affected also Copernicus (cancelled, studio bakrupt); TERA (action combat, beautiful surroundings, eroticized character models); TSW (horror, modern setting, mature content, skill decks).
Maybe it's true that the stance of MMORPG playerbase is shifting, but with so many games failing, it's everyone's guess into what it's shifting.
It looks like many veteran players, at least based on the forums, have been disappointed too many times and are now jaded, bored "grasshoppers," or "marriage proposal" players ("I like it, but will it last me my whole life? I can't afford to have my heart broken again. ") Then there's the "nostalgia syndrome" ("But in the good old days things were meaningful and exciting. Nothing new compares to that. Nothing is as good. And youths nowadays are spoiled.").
If a game challenges the traditional model, it's not good because it misses feature this and that from popular MMORPG this and that, but if it follows the traditional model, then it's "boring, nothing new, WoW with a different skin."
Some may say these failures are a good thing, because now companies will stop underestimating their playerbase, and stop releasing unfinished games with the same traditional mechanic, or that themeparks are finally over. (I agree that in over a decade there wasn't a enough change/evloution in the genre. And innovative games didn't have enough polish to succeed.)
But it may also make investors more wary of putting money into a project that takes years to develop, burns a lot of money, and in the end might not even cover the costs. There is no "safe bet" for investors in the genre. Even to the people outside the genre it's clear by now that WoW's succes is an anomaly for MMORPGs, not the norm.
And while having everlasting and polished content would be ideal, it's good to remember that these are not the 90s. Games, especially MMOs, need significantly larger resources to be completed and polished. Just having a great idea, a vision, is not enough.
Unless you want to make FB and Iphone games. I hear those tend to have a great investement/return ratio, and need a small budget to get started. Plus, they attract the non-MMO crowd too.
All in all, I'm not sure if the current situation is good for MMORPG players.
Ideally, the more types of MMORPGs are succesful, the more we, players, can choose from.
I'm curious how GW2, ArcheAge, PS2, NW (the Foundry has potential)...will fare, but I'm sad that the newly released MMORPGs are struggling. Working on such an extensive project for years sucks the life out of developers and other staff, and then often leaves them unemployed soon after release.
I don't approve of the greed and false advertising made by developing companies and publishers, but on the other side it's like many players refuse to acknowledge that there are limitations when developing a game.
TL;DR:
TSW isn't my cup of tea, but I was sincerely hoping it would be a success.
In the last years, there seems to be a shift in the expectations of MMORPG players, but it's difficult to guess what precisely gamers want.
Polish costs. Innovation is a risk. Copying traditional features doesn't secure success.
When expensive games release and turn unprofitable one after another, investors may think twice if they want to put their money into the next MMORPG project.
IMO MMORPG players would profit the most by a diversified offer of MMORPGs, but I doubt we'll get that.
Also, sorry for the long post. Sometimes lurking around here brings out the worst in me.
I think a combination of the bad rep of Aoc (funcom prior game), and swtor (the other mmo to do full voice) did for it in initial sales.
It is a quality pve themepark.
That said I will probably stop subbing at some point as it has the problem of most themeparks of gear grind pvp, if it was more gw2, less wow pvp wise I would probably play longer.
For a heavy pveer, endgame is better as its not just instances, their are lairs which enable you to summon playfield bosses.
Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. Lao-Tze
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
You know, you can be a rabid fanboy of TSW but still look at REALITY about the company.
April 16th 2012, Funcom stock was valued at $23.90
Right NOW, this SECOND 8-20-12 at 10:25am it is selling for $3.25
Do the math...
It does NOT MATTER how much fun you are having in TSW, the COMPANY is next to worthless because of its failure. You CAN stop and blame it on the COMPANY and not the game itself you know. Funcom has been a craptastic company for over a DECADE, their IDEAS are OUTSTANDING...their ability to make that game reach that potential is HORRIBLE. Anarchy Online, Age of Conan...and yes, The Secret World all could be the greatest MMOs ever made...if Funcom wasnt in control of them.
Those first 2 games never reached their potential because of Funcoms decisions...I mean look at AoC...the game LOOKS unbelievable...its combat potential, including PvP with its guild cities...never reached...even the companies ideas for the shops are TERRIBLE.
An expac, orignally sold in stores for $39...sold in the shop after going F2P for $70...come ON!
There is no choice but to fail with decisions like that.
If they are on pace based on previous models (AoC sold 80-90% of its units within the first 3 months) then as of right now they have sold 80% of 350,000 - 500,000 (so 280,000 to 400,000) with an average subscriber base of (over 1 year) of something in between their healthy retention rate scenario of 37.5% and their poor retention rate of 25%.
Needless to say, 30% of 350k, or 500k (whichever it may be projected to be), is not good. More to come in a few weeks.
Good post OP, very well thought out and examined. Ignore the trolls, they're common around these parts. I look forward to more financial disections !
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Again, quoting Amazon.com's "Best Sellers Video Games PC Hardware" list where 6th is a mouse, and 11th is STRONGHOLD doesn't support your arguement whatsoever.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Originally posted by Kuppa I think they can still save themselves. They have a good product in TSW they just need to bring the people in, they need to go f2p asap.
It wont help unless they get new management.
Just look at what they did with AoC. Their shop, which will then be their revenue will fail bigtime because of the insane prices they want.
Again, quoting Amazon.com's "Best Sellers Video Games PC Hardware" list where 6th is a mouse, and 11th is STRONGHOLD doesn't support your arguement whatsoever.
We are gamers, TSW is a great game..If a game is as good as this is it will eventually pick up some steam.
It's a new and not based opon a huge IP, combine that with less adverising..
TSW will grow upon it's own merits in time.
The point is that we want companies to fail that keep making disappointing games. And Funcoms continuing decline is justification that its games are such. They cant even convince enough people to play them for free. The question is, if the game were priced at a rate equal to its actual cost, would its fans still pay it? $30 a month? $60 a month?
WoW and EVE and a couple less known MMOs are probably the only ones that are actually self sustaining. And notice that they continue to charge a sub with no intentions of going f2p. This is the sign of a quality product. Losing money until you have to give the product away is not.
We are gamers, TSW is a great game..If a game is as good as this is it will eventually pick up some steam.
It's a new and not based opon a huge IP, combine that with less adverising..
TSW will grow upon it's own merits in time.
The point is that we want companies to fail that keep making disappointing games. And Funcoms continuing decline is justification that its games are such. They cant even convince enough people to play them for free. The question is, if the game were priced at a rate equal to its actual cost, would its fans still pay it? $30 a month? $60 a month?
WoW and EVE and a couple less known MMOs are probably the only ones that are actually self sustaining. And notice that they continue to charge a sub with no intentions of going f2p. This is the sign of a quality product. Losing money until you have to give the product away is not.
User critics proves you wrong. TSW is not a bad game.
But i guess you cant fight haters. Its popular to hate funcom, as its popular to hate EA.
Of course, if you ask someone why they hate funcom or EA, most people cant come up with a good answer.
I hate EA! Why do you hate EA? Because .. because ... they are LAME .. i think. Yeah they are lame. Also because i friend hate EA, and i trust my friend!
At this point, I would not be shocked to see a company step in and purchase Funcom, perhaps Turbine, where they could quickly flip most of Funcom's product offerings to be in line with DDO, LOTR etc.
Originally posted by ShakyMo I think a combination of the bad rep of Aoc (funcom prior game), and swtor (the other mmo to do full voice) did for it in initial sales.
I'd add in the fact that it's a brand new IP and the ads really didn't do much to sell people on it. Pretty much all of the popular MMOs in the west used pre-existing and loved IPs. They get to take advantage of that and attract players who normally wouldn't buy an MMO.
The second big issue was the subscription model. There's just too much competition from existing games, including solid F2P games.
Comments
.. .... .- - . - .-. --- .-.. .-.. ... .-- .... --- .-. . .--. --- .-. - .-.-.-
--------------------------------------------------------
Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I've pretty much come to the point where I just play the game and enjoy it while it lasts. That may be 3 months or 3 years or longer. People are going to pick and prod and predict doom for whatever reason they may have.
I love the game, therefore, I support the company that made the game.
End of story.
It's #2 because the box was 50% off over the weekend, which in of itself is a rather bad sign for a game that is so new, and likely an attempt to make the investment report look better.
Unfortunately, that will mean that this quarter's report will be considerably less useful. Numbers of subs one month from now will be a much better judge of retention rate than any information we could get today (not that they're likely to share) as the surge of sales from 50% off will be past their 30 days and GW2 will have been out for 3 weeks. MoP won't have come out yet at that point but WoW explansions and how they effect the market are more of a known factor at this point.
Last article I read for video game sales as was retailer only(and not secondary sales, just initial) as well as not including any digital downloads. It only spelled doom and gloom which has been continuing tread, but I would like to see something showing the whole projections and not one shrinking market of video game sales.
Yes and failed games don't get high sales numbers ... well, that is if you ignore Age of Conan lol. Sorry, means squat. AoC sold more and faster... So while I'm sure you had a point I don't think this means as much as you want it to.
ive been one of the negative regarding the stock itself, as it was clear that it didnt sell as much as wel all hoped. There were lots of signs, like the lifetime sub, xfire numbers, lack of new dimensions just to name a few.
Ive been positive about the game itself however, and its good to see that the game still sells, last i checked it was no 17 on steam.
But this thread has nothing to do with the game. Its written by a person that really hope that funcom will go bankrupt, and it seems that quite a few posters hope that as well.
Well that would be a damn shame. This is one of few companies that dares to try something new with every game they make. Sometimes, they fail, sometimes they fail hard, but they have a little gem in TSW.
Can they get and hold 250-300k subs they will be profitable. Thats certainly not mission impossible.
IDK if the situation is really that bad for Funcom, but it's safe to guess that TSW isn't doing as well as they've been hoping.
I'm a bit surprised by this.
Despite Funcom's tarnished reputation, TSW is a fair attempt at a different MMORPG.
I could never get into the horror genre, but from what I've seen and managed to play, the game has many innovative/unusual and interesting features, funny dialogues and NPCs, plus it's geared toward a more mature public. Not to mention that from the interviews it was clear how Tørnquist, for example, really poured a lot into the story and the basic concept. It also looked like Funcom wanted to avoid the mistakes they made with AoC, and there was no major backlash at release.
I honestly thought the game would garner a bigger response.
This year we had some expensive games coming out, each of them bringing something different to the table, something that should attract players, but still many of these games are struggling.
SW:ToR (innovation with how the story is conveyed - cutscenes + popular IP, popular developer); Kingdoms of Amalur (originally meant as MMORPG, changed into a single-player game before release), which negatively affected also Copernicus (cancelled, studio bakrupt); TERA (action combat, beautiful surroundings, eroticized character models); TSW (horror, modern setting, mature content, skill decks).
Maybe it's true that the stance of MMORPG playerbase is shifting, but with so many games failing, it's everyone's guess into what it's shifting.
It looks like many veteran players, at least based on the forums, have been disappointed too many times and are now jaded, bored "grasshoppers," or "marriage proposal" players ("I like it, but will it last me my whole life? I can't afford to have my heart broken again.
") Then there's the "nostalgia syndrome" ("But in the good old days things were meaningful and exciting. Nothing new compares to that. Nothing is as good. And youths nowadays are spoiled.").
If a game challenges the traditional model, it's not good because it misses feature this and that from popular MMORPG this and that, but if it follows the traditional model, then it's "boring, nothing new, WoW with a different skin."
Some may say these failures are a good thing, because now companies will stop underestimating their playerbase, and stop releasing unfinished games with the same traditional mechanic, or that themeparks are finally over. (I agree that in over a decade there wasn't a enough change/evloution in the genre. And innovative games didn't have enough polish to succeed.)
But it may also make investors more wary of putting money into a project that takes years to develop, burns a lot of money, and in the end might not even cover the costs. There is no "safe bet" for investors in the genre. Even to the people outside the genre it's clear by now that WoW's succes is an anomaly for MMORPGs, not the norm.
And while having everlasting and polished content would be ideal, it's good to remember that these are not the 90s. Games, especially MMOs, need significantly larger resources to be completed and polished. Just having a great idea, a vision, is not enough.
Unless you want to make FB and Iphone games. I hear those tend to have a great investement/return ratio, and need a small budget to get started. Plus, they attract the non-MMO crowd too.
All in all, I'm not sure if the current situation is good for MMORPG players.
Ideally, the more types of MMORPGs are succesful, the more we, players, can choose from.
I'm curious how GW2, ArcheAge, PS2, NW (the Foundry has potential)...will fare, but I'm sad that the newly released MMORPGs are struggling. Working on such an extensive project for years sucks the life out of developers and other staff, and then often leaves them unemployed soon after release.
I don't approve of the greed and false advertising made by developing companies and publishers, but on the other side it's like many players refuse to acknowledge that there are limitations when developing a game.
TL;DR:
TSW isn't my cup of tea, but I was sincerely hoping it would be a success.
In the last years, there seems to be a shift in the expectations of MMORPG players, but it's difficult to guess what precisely gamers want.
Polish costs. Innovation is a risk. Copying traditional features doesn't secure success.
When expensive games release and turn unprofitable one after another, investors may think twice if they want to put their money into the next MMORPG project.
IMO MMORPG players would profit the most by a diversified offer of MMORPGs, but I doubt we'll get that.
Also, sorry for the long post. Sometimes lurking around here brings out the worst in me.
Edit: Format
It is a quality pve themepark.
That said I will probably stop subbing at some point as it has the problem of most themeparks of gear grind pvp, if it was more gw2, less wow pvp wise I would probably play longer.
For a heavy pveer, endgame is better as its not just instances, their are lairs which enable you to summon playfield bosses.
Very good post gama.
Thanks mate!
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
This is how lobby games win...
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
You know, you can be a rabid fanboy of TSW but still look at REALITY about the company.
April 16th 2012, Funcom stock was valued at $23.90
Right NOW, this SECOND 8-20-12 at 10:25am it is selling for $3.25
Do the math...
It does NOT MATTER how much fun you are having in TSW, the COMPANY is next to worthless because of its failure. You CAN stop and blame it on the COMPANY and not the game itself you know. Funcom has been a craptastic company for over a DECADE, their IDEAS are OUTSTANDING...their ability to make that game reach that potential is HORRIBLE. Anarchy Online, Age of Conan...and yes, The Secret World all could be the greatest MMOs ever made...if Funcom wasnt in control of them.
Those first 2 games never reached their potential because of Funcoms decisions...I mean look at AoC...the game LOOKS unbelievable...its combat potential, including PvP with its guild cities...never reached...even the companies ideas for the shops are TERRIBLE.
An expac, orignally sold in stores for $39...sold in the shop after going F2P for $70...come ON!
There is no choice but to fail with decisions like that.
Good post OP, very well thought out and examined. Ignore the trolls, they're common around these parts. I look forward to more financial disections
!
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Again, quoting Amazon.com's "Best Sellers Video Games PC Hardware" list where 6th is a mouse, and 11th is STRONGHOLD doesn't support your arguement whatsoever.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
It wont help unless they get new management.
Just look at what they did with AoC. Their shop, which will then be their revenue will fail bigtime because of the insane prices they want.
The point is that we want companies to fail that keep making disappointing games. And Funcoms continuing decline is justification that its games are such. They cant even convince enough people to play them for free. The question is, if the game were priced at a rate equal to its actual cost, would its fans still pay it? $30 a month? $60 a month?
WoW and EVE and a couple less known MMOs are probably the only ones that are actually self sustaining. And notice that they continue to charge a sub with no intentions of going f2p. This is the sign of a quality product. Losing money until you have to give the product away is not.
User critics proves you wrong. TSW is not a bad game.
But i guess you cant fight haters. Its popular to hate funcom, as its popular to hate EA.
Of course, if you ask someone why they hate funcom or EA, most people cant come up with a good answer.
I hate EA! Why do you hate EA? Because .. because ... they are LAME .. i think. Yeah they are lame. Also because i friend hate EA, and i trust my friend!
Turbine was bought by WB.
Just to clarify, it's 23.90 NOK (around $4 US) down to 3.25 NOK (about $.52 US) today.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
I'd add in the fact that it's a brand new IP and the ads really didn't do much to sell people on it. Pretty much all of the popular MMOs in the west used pre-existing and loved IPs. They get to take advantage of that and attract players who normally wouldn't buy an MMO.
The second big issue was the subscription model. There's just too much competition from existing games, including solid F2P games.
Just to clarify, it doesnt matter, its a stock exchange value...which is now 1/7th what it was a 3 months ago.