Your points have been repeated to death, but still true. And to those pvp lovers opposing these facts, you are considered a whiner, and whiners are weak and therefore easy prey. Its not just their right but also their duty to feed on and rise above what they consider loosers. You loose, and everytime you try to fight back with reasoning, you only rejustify that they are right.
Pvp is not for everyone, it is not even for that many, but as a concept it is much stronger and easier to design than pve mechanics. So there is your problem, over time pvp suffocates pve, because it is just more effecient as cost per customer. Abandon this corrupted genre, mmorpgs just arent made anymore.
Haha Adam you're not boring you sure entertained me with that article, even if I pretty much disagree.
I think a lot of pvp frustration comes from people uninformed about pvp (not by their own fault, just not any info in game). They assume their PVE setup of 1-0 keys and wasd movement should work in PVP - when that's usually a terrible setup. Like tab targeting, most games I've played recently have an optional keybind in the settings where you can bind a key to target what your mouse is over. Ths is huge in pvp.
Also a lot of those pvp asses can be beat if you just search youtube for tips on a good keyboard layout and tactics/rotations against each class and practice. Sure, sometimes you just need better gear but there is strategy involved with staying alive and winning... anyway, enough of that...
I've found that there are just as many assholes in PVE with their "only 130k hps? noob!" remarks, so at least in pvp I have a chance at killing them. I've found I'd rather play an instanced pvp match that takes 25 mins over a 3 hour dungeon instance when I'm queing up with random people. This is assuming max level in today's theme park mmos where you've already "been there done that."
I guess we can only play what we're given and sadly there isn't as much variety out there right now as games are claiming. At least imho.
"I started playing online games in 1999 (yeah I'm going there). Player versus player-ing was but a pipe dream: the sparkle in some kid's eye, or in Mark Jacobs' showering cubicle"
Umm, no...it wasnt. Every major MMORPG at the time already had it. Meridian 59 had it, The Realm Online had it, Ultima Online had it, EverQuest had it...Asherons Call had it...hell, NeverWinter Nights Online had it back in 1991...
English have been ganking weaker countries for centuries. The psychological need for this kind of game play should be nothing of a surprise, especially to an englishman.
I respect your opinion in this article, but for me I differ on the reason I feel modern pvp sucks. In themeparks, instanced pvp for points on an almost never ending gear treadmill, in the same battlefields you have done 500 times, where gearscore ussually determines the outcome before skill, with no impact on the world, is not really exciting or fulfilling to me.
The pvp I loved, where strategy and commradery was forefront, was Shadowbane. No instances. You were fighting for the good xp spot, runedropper, the mine that gave resources to your guild, the city you had build with your friends, or a city you are trying to seige for some political relationship gone bad. Yes, there was a lot of ganking of lowbies, and that and the bugginess of the game most likely led to it's downfall.
But to compare a win in some instanced BG to the thrill of defending your city from a seige is not even close. Also take into account that BG you just did was with a bunch of randoms you will most likely not see again as they exit the instance, to people you have been building that city with for months or years. You didn't get any points. You weren't working towards that super uber pants of pwnage. The thrill of victory, in and of itself, was intoxicating.
I look forward to the new iterations of this kind of structure, both in the Repop and ArcheAge.
Instancing Gear grinds (especially when you have separate pve / pvp stats) Mudflation Players that are doing it for "phatlewt" rather than bragging rights, realm / guild pride and the fun of it.
Basicly everything wow brought to the table destroys pvp.
Enjoyed the read Tho I do feel some points are misguided, this is only my opinion! Firstly.. you say PvP is a "non-skilled, jab fest" yet you are aweful at it, so PvE requires? Skill is not just mashing your buttons faster than the other guy in all cases, there is also the aspect of thinking faster, predicting, planning a fight to your advantage or simply put, keeping your cool. I believe this is a large part of pvp and not just in an MMO. The same skill set plays its role in PvE, those who panic often end up losing a battle before its really lost, I have seen it countless times raiding.
The second is.. what really has a lasting effect on a MMO world, I do not have a hugely broad experience of MMO's - WoW, War, Rift, SWTOR and trials of others! From the experiences I have had, PvP nor PvE have any meaninful lasting effect on the world ( its something most MMO players dream about im sure! ). Invariably things reset, and here you go again.. out to kill the same bosses, to do the same events in a zone to reach the same goal you were aiming for last week, month or even year. Granted there are some events that do last, these are usually related to major patches, which.. happen in PvP too.
You might hate PvP but its not all that different. If there is a close community or regular players you are facing, you find your "bosses" your personal mission to finally beat the guy who has been destroying you all week, your quests to get better looking / superior gear. The players are what makes it dynamic.
We all want a true persistent dynamic and immersive game. We play the aspect of our chosen game we prefer, while dreaming of mechanics we want to see.
I think "PvP Right" is another of those semantic null forum expressions. Seems to be about a hundred different ideas of what "right" means, in this thread alone.
Damn, it's almost like a roleplay thread. The only constant is, no one does it 'right' (except whoever's speaking, of course).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well you missed the best pvp game ever UT99.The problem with all pvp is how it plays out with latency/lag/packet loss/frame rates ect ect.
I don't understand the part about team work to take down a target?PVP stands for player versus player.Team pvp involving a target would be more like COD or a Battlegrounds target.
rpg pvp has been done down right awful,i have seen nothing i want to take part in.The reason is movement is limited,map play is not a factor at all,weapons are not balanced enough for all distances and in most games stats and gear matters.So imo it gives us about a 10-20% skill level and the rest is just everything else.RPG's further the problem by trying to add fps like aiming,but needing to access 20 hot keys at the same time,it is counter productive.Other games make limitations on how many skills you can use.I have this skill but i can't use it?Hmm not very good design.
You see my opinion is that there is no one best way to play,that is what makes a fps the best at pvp.In RPG's you have your best damage,your best healing ability and really nothing is brought to the table outside the box.Hate tools no longer come into play in pvp either,so half of what you learned to play with in a rpg is removed for pvp combat.
If i did want to play a pvp environment right now in a rpg,it would be FFXI's.It takes place in the real game world,NOT an instance idea.The teams are balanced ,example 5 versus 5 and levels are balanced as well.However gear is to each their own and can make a big difference.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
whats a travesty is someone like MMORPG.com wanting you to represent not only them but most american gamers over there. there had to have been a better choice.
I've never had nearly as much fun in MMO PVP as I had when I played ranked FPS team games. But that's probably because I have good twitch speed but suck at microing a ton of skills.
I think "PvP Right" is another of those semantic null forum expressions. Seems to be about a hundred different ideas of what "right" means, in this thread alone.Damn, it's almost like a roleplay thread. The only constant is, no one does it 'right' (except whoever's speaking, of course).
Modern PvP is very much a game within a game these days. I agree 100% with your comments about how older games were. Login and play, not worrying about specs and builds. I don't know what was wrong with that either.
That said I'm not in your catagory of unskilled button mashing, I tend to do quite well in PvP but I also tend to use odd specs. I've never been into cookie cutter builds and I don't like following the crowd. I prefer to find something a bit different that works for me.
As for tactics, they make sense. If you use even rudimentary tactics you will always beat "the zerg" which is where most players seem to find themselves in my experience.
Anyone who agrees with this article is a total bluebie. Its all your faults that Vanguard doesn't have PvP anymore and you know it! I hope your kids get bind camped for hours when they are old enough to play MMO's!
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
I agree that modern PvP does suck, for the most part. "Modern" PvP being instanced battlegrounds where success is driven primarily by gear/stats and the people with more free time.
You (OP) obviously never played the games that had strategy and tactics but they did exist. DaoC and Shadowbane both required all kinds of strategy and tactics as well as skill/teamwork in execution to be successful. I remember our realm in DaoC (Midgard/Percival) would plan for weeks, if not months, for relic raid assaults or other various RvR objectives in web forums prior to doing them in game. Putting a plan into action and adapting and overcoming was awesome, I had some of the best PvP/RvR times of my life in that game.
Nowadays the large majority wants instant gratification, without having to put in the time/work for the reward. Which brings up the other major fault of modern PvP, the reward. The reward has transformed from being the thrill of the fight, or the excitement of victory (sometimes defeat)...to what epic purple weapon of godly'ness do I get if I do 500 battlegrounds??? To me, that is the single biggest reason why modern PvP sucks.
I PvP because I am a competitor, I play to crush/win, and there is no better way to test yourself then when against other competitors. Win or lose it is fun (most of the time ), I just wish there were more competitors instead of gear grinders around these days...because IMHO, they are the ones that make PvP suck..
Awesome article, I really enjoyed it. Even as a huge fan of pvp (I played on Tallon Zek in EQ1 and loved every minute of it), I can agree with 90% of what the author said. Very well put.
Which brings up the other major fault of modern PvP, the reward. The reward has transformed from being the thrill of the fight, or the excitement of victory (sometimes defeat)...to what epic purple weapon of godly'ness do I get if I do 500 battlegrounds??? To me, that is the single biggest reason why modern PvP sucks.
This x 1000
I couldn't agree more. Bragging rights used to be all the reward one required, you emerged victorious over your opponent, which was the goal from the start.
I hate instanced PvP unless that is the game I am player, (See Tribes). If I am playing a game with PvP, I dont want instanced, or safe zones or anything of that like. I dont want specific PvP power gear or junk like that. I hate games like that, thus I hate WoW, SWTOR, and anything like it.
-Who Were They? I dont know,they AFKed out from battleground and they bought better gear and moved to winner server and changed their names and some of them were bots and and...
Am I the only one to remember how much fail WAR's rvr was? It's not the first time lately I see it mentioned as a positive example of it done right... But that's kind of not what I remember it being at all, nor what most people used to comment about it way back when. Maybe it changed? I admit I wouldn't know, I never went back for a second look.
Oh, and the article reads like a whiny rant. Pvp in a box is pvp in a box, and it isn't going anywhere but neither is it the cause of the world's problems. Trick is just to limit it's balance affecting pve and the game as a whole. If people want to massacre each other in a pvp box let them, as long as there's other options and other games I don't see the issue really.
No, I remember it as well. Yet many seem to look back with rose-tinted glasses at DAOC's setup and forget all the horror, pain, and suffering they encountered. It's human nature to block out bad memories. DAOC had to offer "free high level characters" and the like to try and get people to move servers to make it more competitive, as most servers were dominated by one realm, and contrary to many people's faulty memories here, the two lesser realms didn't "fight the good fight and beat up the big bad meanie". No, they got ganked. Repeatedly. Till they moved servers where their realm was top dog. Sure, once your realm is #1, PvP is more fun.... no one likes to lose.
And regarding others saying "Shadowbane". You mean the game where an entire server could be dominated by a single guild who managed to drive away the playerbase faster than any previous game ever had? Sure, great fun for that guild.... till they ran out of people to gank. Sucked for the developer. No players = no money.
Comments
Your points have been repeated to death, but still true. And to those pvp lovers opposing these facts, you are considered a whiner, and whiners are weak and therefore easy prey. Its not just their right but also their duty to feed on and rise above what they consider loosers. You loose, and everytime you try to fight back with reasoning, you only rejustify that they are right.
Pvp is not for everyone, it is not even for that many, but as a concept it is much stronger and easier to design than pve mechanics. So there is your problem, over time pvp suffocates pve, because it is just more effecient as cost per customer. Abandon this corrupted genre, mmorpgs just arent made anymore.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Haha Adam you're not boring you sure entertained me with that article, even if I pretty much disagree.
I think a lot of pvp frustration comes from people uninformed about pvp (not by their own fault, just not any info in game). They assume their PVE setup of 1-0 keys and wasd movement should work in PVP - when that's usually a terrible setup. Like tab targeting, most games I've played recently have an optional keybind in the settings where you can bind a key to target what your mouse is over. Ths is huge in pvp.
Also a lot of those pvp asses can be beat if you just search youtube for tips on a good keyboard layout and tactics/rotations against each class and practice. Sure, sometimes you just need better gear but there is strategy involved with staying alive and winning... anyway, enough of that...
I've found that there are just as many assholes in PVE with their "only 130k hps? noob!" remarks, so at least in pvp I have a chance at killing them. I've found I'd rather play an instanced pvp match that takes 25 mins over a 3 hour dungeon instance when I'm queing up with random people. This is assuming max level in today's theme park mmos where you've already "been there done that."
I guess we can only play what we're given and sadly there isn't as much variety out there right now as games are claiming. At least imho.
"I started playing online games in 1999 (yeah I'm going there). Player versus player-ing was but a pipe dream: the sparkle in some kid's eye, or in Mark Jacobs' showering cubicle"
Umm, no...it wasnt. Every major MMORPG at the time already had it. Meridian 59 had it, The Realm Online had it, Ultima Online had it, EverQuest had it...Asherons Call had it...hell, NeverWinter Nights Online had it back in 1991...
English have been ganking weaker countries for centuries. The psychological need for this kind of game play should be nothing of a surprise, especially to an englishman.
Your didn't play it.
I respect your opinion in this article, but for me I differ on the reason I feel modern pvp sucks. In themeparks, instanced pvp for points on an almost never ending gear treadmill, in the same battlefields you have done 500 times, where gearscore ussually determines the outcome before skill, with no impact on the world, is not really exciting or fulfilling to me.
The pvp I loved, where strategy and commradery was forefront, was Shadowbane. No instances. You were fighting for the good xp spot, runedropper, the mine that gave resources to your guild, the city you had build with your friends, or a city you are trying to seige for some political relationship gone bad. Yes, there was a lot of ganking of lowbies, and that and the bugginess of the game most likely led to it's downfall.
But to compare a win in some instanced BG to the thrill of defending your city from a seige is not even close. Also take into account that BG you just did was with a bunch of randoms you will most likely not see again as they exit the instance, to people you have been building that city with for months or years. You didn't get any points. You weren't working towards that super uber pants of pwnage. The thrill of victory, in and of itself, was intoxicating.
I look forward to the new iterations of this kind of structure, both in the Repop and ArcheAge.
Often lurking, rarely posting
Gear grinds (especially when you have separate pve / pvp stats)
Mudflation
Players that are doing it for "phatlewt" rather than bragging rights, realm / guild pride and the fun of it.
Basicly everything wow brought to the table destroys pvp.
Enjoyed the read
Tho I do feel some points are misguided, this is only my opinion! Firstly.. you say PvP is a "non-skilled, jab fest" yet you are aweful at it, so PvE requires? Skill is not just mashing your buttons faster than the other guy in all cases, there is also the aspect of thinking faster, predicting, planning a fight to your advantage or simply put, keeping your cool. I believe this is a large part of pvp and not just in an MMO. The same skill set plays its role in PvE, those who panic often end up losing a battle before its really lost, I have seen it countless times raiding.
The second is.. what really has a lasting effect on a MMO world, I do not have a hugely broad experience of MMO's - WoW, War, Rift, SWTOR and trials of others! From the experiences I have had, PvP nor PvE have any meaninful lasting effect on the world ( its something most MMO players dream about im sure! ). Invariably things reset, and here you go again.. out to kill the same bosses, to do the same events in a zone to reach the same goal you were aiming for last week, month or even year. Granted there are some events that do last, these are usually related to major patches, which.. happen in PvP too.
You might hate PvP but its not all that different. If there is a close community or regular players you are facing, you find your "bosses" your personal mission to finally beat the guy who has been destroying you all week, your quests to get better looking / superior gear. The players are what makes it dynamic.
We all want a true persistent dynamic and immersive game. We play the aspect of our chosen game we prefer, while dreaming of mechanics we want to see.
I think "PvP Right" is another of those semantic null forum expressions. Seems to be about a hundred different ideas of what "right" means, in this thread alone.
Damn, it's almost like a roleplay thread. The only constant is, no one does it 'right' (except whoever's speaking, of course).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
you and me both buddy, shadowbane was such a good game despite all the bugs.
Deth to you ALL!
Well you missed the best pvp game ever UT99.The problem with all pvp is how it plays out with latency/lag/packet loss/frame rates ect ect.
I don't understand the part about team work to take down a target?PVP stands for player versus player.Team pvp involving a target would be more like COD or a Battlegrounds target.
rpg pvp has been done down right awful,i have seen nothing i want to take part in.The reason is movement is limited,map play is not a factor at all,weapons are not balanced enough for all distances and in most games stats and gear matters.So imo it gives us about a 10-20% skill level and the rest is just everything else.RPG's further the problem by trying to add fps like aiming,but needing to access 20 hot keys at the same time,it is counter productive.Other games make limitations on how many skills you can use.I have this skill but i can't use it?Hmm not very good design.
You see my opinion is that there is no one best way to play,that is what makes a fps the best at pvp.In RPG's you have your best damage,your best healing ability and really nothing is brought to the table outside the box.Hate tools no longer come into play in pvp either,so half of what you learned to play with in a rpg is removed for pvp combat.
If i did want to play a pvp environment right now in a rpg,it would be FFXI's.It takes place in the real game world,NOT an instance idea.The teams are balanced ,example 5 versus 5 and levels are balanced as well.However gear is to each their own and can make a big difference.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This makes me feel good
Modern PvP is very much a game within a game these days. I agree 100% with your comments about how older games were. Login and play, not worrying about specs and builds. I don't know what was wrong with that either.
That said I'm not in your catagory of unskilled button mashing, I tend to do quite well in PvP but I also tend to use odd specs. I've never been into cookie cutter builds and I don't like following the crowd. I prefer to find something a bit different that works for me.
As for tactics, they make sense. If you use even rudimentary tactics you will always beat "the zerg" which is where most players seem to find themselves in my experience.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
I agree that modern PvP does suck, for the most part. "Modern" PvP being instanced battlegrounds where success is driven primarily by gear/stats and the people with more free time.
You (OP) obviously never played the games that had strategy and tactics but they did exist. DaoC and Shadowbane both required all kinds of strategy and tactics as well as skill/teamwork in execution to be successful. I remember our realm in DaoC (Midgard/Percival) would plan for weeks, if not months, for relic raid assaults or other various RvR objectives in web forums prior to doing them in game. Putting a plan into action and adapting and overcoming was awesome, I had some of the best PvP/RvR times of my life in that game.
Nowadays the large majority wants instant gratification, without having to put in the time/work for the reward. Which brings up the other major fault of modern PvP, the reward. The reward has transformed from being the thrill of the fight, or the excitement of victory (sometimes defeat)...to what epic purple weapon of godly'ness do I get if I do 500 battlegrounds??? To me, that is the single biggest reason why modern PvP sucks.
I PvP because I am a competitor, I play to crush/win, and there is no better way to test yourself then when against other competitors. Win or lose it is fun (most of the time
), I just wish there were more competitors instead of gear grinders around these days...because IMHO, they are the ones that make PvP suck..
This x 1000
I couldn't agree more. Bragging rights used to be all the reward one required, you emerged victorious over your opponent, which was the goal from the start.
So much crap, so little quality.
Manowar : The Warriors Prayer
- Grand Father, Tell Me A Story!
- All Right, Go And Get Your Storybook
- No, No, Not One Of Those, A Real Story
- A Real Story?
- Yes! Tell Me About When You Were A Boy.
- Well, Then, I Shall Have To Take You Back
With Me, A Long Way In Time...
It Was My Thirteenth Year On A Cold Winter's
Day, As I Walked Through The Enchanted Forest,
I Heard The Sounds Of Horses And Men At Arms.
I Felt Compelled To Walk On And Find The Place
Of These Sounds. And When The Forest Did Clear
I Was Standing On A Hill. Before Me There Was
A Great Plane, Atoned The Armies Of The World,
Standing, Waiting. I Thought To Myself, For
Whom Or For What Are They Waiting ?
Suddenly A Gust Of Wind Come Up From The North
There Appeared A Lone Rider, Holding A Sword Of
Steel. Then From The South Came Another, Bearing
A Battle Axe. From The East Came A Third,
Holding A Spiked Club, And Finally, From The
West A Rider Who Wielded A Great Hammer Of War.
With Them Came Their Soldiers Of Death, Followed
By An Army Of Immortals. They Were Few In
Number, But The Look In Their Eyes Told All
Who Beheld Them That They Would Leave This
Day Only In Victory Or Death. And There Was
A Great Silence...
My Heart Began To Pound, Storm Clouds Filled
The Sky With Darkness. Rain Came And Four
Winds Blew With Such Anger That I Held Fast To
A Tree. I Watched The Four Riders Raise Their
Weapons Into The Air. Without Warning, Screaming
Their War Cry They Led The Attack. Down To The
Battle They Ride. They Met The Armies Of The
World With A Mighty Clash! I Could Feel The
Groundshake, The Earth Drank Much Blood That Day.
Each Of The Four, Was Into Himself A Whirlwind
Of Doom !!!
When The Smoke Did Clear, Many Thousands Were
Dead. There Was Much Blood And Gore. Their
Bodies Lay Broken And Scattered Across The
Battle Field, Like Brown Leaves Blown By The
Wind. And I Saw The For Ride Together To The
Top Of The Hill, While Below Them The Soldiers
Of Death Assembled All Those Who Would Now
Swear Allegiance To Them.
And The Four Spoke The Words Of The
Warriors Prayer.
- Gods Of War I Call You, My Sword Is By My Side.
I Seek A Life Of Honor Free From All False Pride.
I Will Crack The Whip With A Bold Mighty Hail.
Cover Me With Death If I Should Ever Fail.
Glory, Majesty, Unity - Hail, Hail, Hail
And As I Stood And Looked On, I Heard The Armies
Of The World Hail Them Without End, And Their
Voices Of Victory Carried Long And Fat Throughout
The Land!
- Well, That's It. Did You Like The Story?
- Yeah, It Was Great!
- Oh, Good, I'm Glad. Now Off To Bed With You.
- Grandfather?
- Yes?
- Who Were Those Four Men?
- Who Were They? They Were The Metal Kings!!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todays answer:
-Who Were They? I dont know,they AFKed out from battleground and they bought better gear and moved to winner server and changed their names and some of them were bots and and...
Let's internet
No, I remember it as well. Yet many seem to look back with rose-tinted glasses at DAOC's setup and forget all the horror, pain, and suffering they encountered. It's human nature to block out bad memories. DAOC had to offer "free high level characters" and the like to try and get people to move servers to make it more competitive, as most servers were dominated by one realm, and contrary to many people's faulty memories here, the two lesser realms didn't "fight the good fight and beat up the big bad meanie". No, they got ganked. Repeatedly. Till they moved servers where their realm was top dog. Sure, once your realm is #1, PvP is more fun.... no one likes to lose.
And regarding others saying "Shadowbane". You mean the game where an entire server could be dominated by a single guild who managed to drive away the playerbase faster than any previous game ever had? Sure, great fun for that guild.... till they ran out of people to gank. Sucked for the developer. No players = no money.