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Is MMO design changing, are they finally entering the social era?
parmenion
Member Posts: 260
I feel like the MMO genre took a left turn when Everquest surplanted Ultima Online in terms of popularity. Ultima Online ruined itself also by becoming an item grinder to "compete" with everquest, ruining it's USP, sandbox, open ended, community based. We need to have all varieties of game, but the design possibilities hinted at by the original promises of UO have never really been realised, development has largely followed the herd, first the everquest style then the wow style and the few more unique vision MMO's have never got a widespread following that would affect industry patterns e.g. EVE (one server).
This appears to have changed, now we have a new major AAA mmo that actually goes back to the vision of community, and adds story telling and balanced pvp. GW2 is a very healthy thing for the MMO-genre, with Arena-net we have a game clearly created by investing in a team's vision, with many genre changing features. GW2 is a huge departure from the typical accountants looking to make a buck with a clone with a new title e.g. sw:tor
1st Age of MMO's (everquest-style design era) was for the highly computer literate enthusiast niche. Co-operative effort and massive time investment was essential to get anywhere.
2nd Age of MMO's (WoW-style design age) Solo-play came to the fore at the expense of social and community group interaction and effort. LFD/LFR etc. Competition for game resources, loot, harvesting, mobs, quest updates made players view each other as competition. Massive time investment was still required because of the subs model, but now it was hidden behind bite-sized short term tasks, and re-grinding ones gear, factions and currencies back to par again as your efforts to date are replaced and superceeded every new season.
3rd Age of MMO's (GW2-style design era) players now have the best of both group centric first age and solo enabled 2nd age. 3rd brings far better community bonds and rasons to co-operate. While there are servers, cross server guesting, one single economy, cross server mail and chat and guilds, cross server transfers effectively make for one world, with the server a unit for WvW seiging, connecting you to the sub-group of your pvp allies who are your home server. Time investment is now optional, revenue no longer based on making the game boring and longwinded for large chunks before you are allowed to access the fun. Player skill based play not player gear based play. Metric is, if it's fun, people will play. Business model is if people have fun and love the world & community some will buy vanity & convenience items hence generating revenue.
In GW2 this past week I've helped and thanked, and been helped by and thanked by more random strangers in 6 days than in the last 4 years across several MMO's, including both established MMO's and new launches. Chat reflects this in a way not seen since the tiny enthusiast niche days of early UO and EQ, without all the negative aspects of enforced grouping.
The 3rd age of MMO's is where MMO's finally become properly social by removing the divisive dynamics as Arena-net have so eloquently identified and done. 3rd is where the game aims to be enjoyable all the time, not hold the enjoyment at arms length like a donkey-carrot to get you to sub longer and grind to replace all your stuff this new season.
GW2 will shape what MMO developers have to live up to from now on.
Comments
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I play MMOs to not talk to people. I like being alone, and there's nothing more alone than being by oneself in a crowd.
The social aspect to MMO's did not cease, but it did change, a lot. The social interaction and group effort required to advance in EQ1 style games, was only present in a much more limited form in just the endgame raiding aspect of the wow-era designed games.
As an example consider the time to reward investment for helping players on their corpse runs to plane of hate etc, versus showing up a few times a week to get raiding DKP for oneself etc.
The importance of developing and maintaining social bonds changed along with the game design, as games became more solo friendly, players became less sociable.
What you are talking about is a side effect of improving accessibility and reducing dependancy between players. Partly why MMOs were unpopular "back when" was because they were inaccessible and required much time and effort to play (compared to other games).
You can "bond" just as well in the games of today. I've made nearly a dozen lasting friends in games that are entirely instanced, lobby-based and/or thoroughly soloable. I talk with them nearly everyday on Mumble/TS2 and we play many other games together. We make plans to go out and have drinks etc.
How can you say that games have become less sociable? Could it just be you?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I fond people talk alot less in GW2 then most MMOs to date, so not sure where that came from. Only chatting I usually see is 2 or 3 people bickering at each other in WvW to direct everyone. You know those wannabe generals.
Of course you can bond, but it isn t as required. Games before you really needed to depend on people. You wouldn t enter a dungeon, and after a boss, someone would just bail, and leave you all there without your healer or tank, or any for that matter. It isn t the same at all now, if you did leave a group mid dungeon, well good luck, you had to get out yourself, no button to push to get out. Hell if someone told the group they needed to leave in say 1 hour, back then, people actually took the time to help them out, now people get what they want and just leave.
MMOs aren t as social now, because you don t have to be. One day hopefully, but GW2 didn t change anything for the better, all you do now, is group up without being grouped.
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^ This.
I've been wishing for people to shut the F**k up since NWN on AOL.
I know how the games were back then, I was there - and didn't like it. There are strong reasons why things changed, and why those changes becamse popular.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
MMOs might be more socially accessible today, but they certainly aren't more socially mature. In the old days there were rules to online social activity, they weren't written down, you just learned them. Those who chose not to follow these unwritten rules, due to unwilligness, childishness(most often), or etc., were shunned and ostracized. These days, it seems its the exact opposite. If every other comment isn't outrageous sarcasm or a sex joke, your looked at as though there is something inherently wrong with you.
Social accessibility doesn't necessary lead to social inclusiveness, or a want to socialize. Older games had this philosophy built into their core with player interdependences (no, I do not mean forced grouping, rather players required the skills each other had to progress), (Combat Professions needed Non-Combat professions to produce goods, ammunition, etc., and Non-Combat Professions needed Combat Professions for aid during harvesting, hunting, etc). This led to socializing, which fostered a robust community, and many guilds and friendships were formed because of this. Modern players, would die of shock, if they were required to do anything like this. "You mean I have to talk to someone?"
People need to grow the **** up.
Making games more solo did not improve the social aspect of MMO’s funnily enough, though that’s what some would have you believe.
Guilds stayed in favour, they could be part of the hype machine, grouping could not. You won’t find a lot of anti guild players, so there is no demographic to pander to there. Anti groupers abound however and designing for them became the norm.
Social networks are causing a problem for MMO’s, they want in on the potential player base but how to get it? Designing MMO’s for people who rarely play games has led to more dumbing down and linking to social networks. But I think they are having real problems here, just because there is a new market does not mean you can produce something that market will want.
MMO’s will get easier, becoming more accessible even to someone who has never played anything other than Farmville. I am not sure that will do the trick, but with millions of potential customers the lack of success won’t stop them trying.
Going to have to disagree here. MMOs are moving away from co-operation, towards co-existence.
Co-operation is when two EQ groups mutually agreed to pull only mobs from their side of the dungeon. Co-operation is the decision to die instead of pulling a train on the group by the zone exit.
Co-existence is instances, which removed the need for this sort of cooperation. Instanced loot and resources further remove that need. People no longer co-operate, they are catered to as if they are the sole player in the game. While that is certainly more convenient and less drama-prone, it isn't cooperation.
As far as socialization, I think that pretty much died with limited mana pools. When you had to wait for your healer's mana to regen, the group had downtime, and we often filled it with conversation. Given the pace of today's games, there's little time to talk while you're playing. During the average Rift dungeon or GW2 DE, if I took a moment to type an entire sentence I'd be standing there like a fool while everyone else was busy shooting. Hell, if I tried to articulate a complete thought on vent I'd probably wipe the group.
I do think that the recent focus on non-combat activites such as exploration and crafting shows some promise as far as socialization. But as the pace of combat keeps increasing (SHOOT MOVE DODGE COUNTER COUNTER BACKPEDAL SHOOT), there will be less and less time for simply yakking it up.
GW2 is good game, but it is very low on social and community.
Cooperation, interdependabilty and community building are quite shallow or non-existing.
Like I said I am not hating and I think GW2 is good game, but it is not focused on social, interdependabilty and community aspect.
It will propably hurt it's longlivety for me.
This was a somewhat mind boggling read. I'm not even sure where to begin in reply to the OP. The hypothesis is that MMOs are more social now than they were in the late '90s? They are more social now than they were in the early 2000s? They are more social than they were in the mid 2000s? They are more social than they were in the late 2000s? That they are more social in the early 2010s than they were in the late '90s?
'90s > early 2000s > mid 2000s > late 2000s > early 2010s.... as far as social goes.
Of course, all of this is based on subjective experience - no doubt. None of these takes away from what the OP experienced in GW2. It's not meant to do so. The OP's experiences are the OP's experiences.
My own experiences have reflected a more game lobby atmosphere and the general anonymity of the internet - so all in all, it's been less social.
Part of it could simply be how the definition of social may have changed over the decades as well. Part of it could be the simple change in accepted behaviors and the like that we have seen in the past couple of decades.
It could be a simple correlation of my becoming a crotchety old man and not wanting to deal with all the nonsense from the kids playing on my yard. Though, I think it is more about how the market has changed and who the typical MMO player is these days compared to back in the late '90s and early 2000s.
But then again, back in the day - we called them MMORPGs, eh? We complained that newer games were becoming little more than 3D chatrooms set in some popular IP. We complained that kids in kindergarten had a better idea of how to play than all the up and coming tweens 'n teends treating the games like an episode of Degrassi...
...maybe I'm just an old crotchety guy at this point.
My personal experience has been the opposite though - more social -> less social, rather than less social to more social. That being said, I'm glad the OP had a pleasant social experience...those little things can do wonders for a community.
Community? MMO? These days? Who am I trying to kid....?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
No, newer MMOs are not more social than SOME older ones. There are always outliers. But, that's because I equate having a community to being social and others equate social to just having a chat channel. And others think that having a game be social means linking it to outside social networks like facebook or twitter and using those mediums to discuss the game outside of the game. I think we need to stop just using the word social as a description. It does not fully encompass the ideals that some of us are looking for.
There is also the difference in allowing social interaction, offering it but providing gameplay that avoids it, and forcing social interaction in games.
And lastly, tools of convenience and solo efficiency of class building are allowing the person with little time to participate in the game but also shredding the communities of MMOs. While that is good and bad depending on your point of perception, I think there needs to be some new ground where they converge more or more games that cater to each crowd and are made and marketed as such. Not everyone wants the same thing and no single game will be all inclusive in that sense no matter how many companies want to be the next WoW. Not even WoW is WoW these days. It has changed.
i think this will change somewhat when voicechat becomes a standard part of a mmo, replacing the "say" command and only the say command.
people will talk again without the hassle of typing. Voice modulation is available now so it wont even be their real voice anyhow.
the change that needs to accompany this is the focus on smaller groups as we all know voice talking in larger groups is a mess.
3 man grouping with voice chat. That is the future in my opinion.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
That's because as much as employees of game makers, especially community managers and forum moderators, posteur and bark, they don't bite. The reason we are in the state we are in is a combination of what is seen as socially acceptable, what people are learning from peers and parents, and the people left to enforce the rules not wanting to because they can see it affect the bottom line. But, they don't consider how not doing something also affects the bottom line. Either enforce the line or don't bother to draw it.
I also blame it on the "me" mentality that is being reinforced by social network design, "reality" tv, and news and media. Everyone thinks they are the star that everyone is looking to guide them. Being humble is a lost virtue.
I wish voice chat was the answer. It's not. Go play a game like Modern Warfare. You'll hate humanity in a matter of minutes. Social ettiquete is lost. Every discussion devolves to drowning out of others with tones and people almost eating their mics. Voice chat is awesome when it works and people behave. When people don't, it becomes completely worthless. Mute lists will be just as long as /ignore lists and lead to segregation of people just like now.
Imagine everyone in a city/kingdom being on one big voice chat. *shudder*
Actually that is true.
Even though they did not have some i.e. communication tools like some mmorpg's have now - they were more social.
Being more or less social depends on if players have a reason to socialize. If they want or need to socialize to achieve something then they will. If game allow to achieve and participate in everything or almost evferything without need to socialize - then player's won't.
It was always like that and always will be. Human mind is wired for 'effectiveness' and if player can omit need to find someone by himself, explain something to someone, plan something, find something , maintain 'good name'. Then majority will omit socializing, interdpendabilty and cooperation. Because they can. Most people choose path of less resistance.
Old mmos:
The game worlds were brutal and unforgiving. Players had to band together to form groups and guilds out of necessity, What they gained by forming friendships and community could often be lost so strength of ties was the most important element in the game. Players not only knew very well most of those within their guild but also the leaders and important players withing other guilds as guild coordination was nearly as important as the reason for forming you own guild. All players in the age of these games knew more players on their own server then they ever do now in moderm mmo's. Large guilds disbanding incredibly impacted the community and server.
New mmos:
Their game worlds are solo'able for the most part and full of safety nets ensuring the poorest players are enabled to get through even the toughest of content with the least amount of help. Guilds are mostly chat channels so you are not bored while solo'ing and a support structure for number crunching end game play by numbers raiding. 100% of the game is designed to be finished within the guild structure. There is typically very little need to go outside a guild to reach any additional content (a few exceptions exist of course but typically end game only content). Players either have no need to group, use automated group finding tools like a pay at door whore when the need arises or are enabled by public group mechanics where you no longer need to ever know the name of the player next to you and the even the most crap player has no need to learn or xp grinding bots gets full rewards. Large guilds disbanding means have zero impact in most modern mmo's and are now artificially propped up by built in "over-time" mechanics.
Ya ... I sure as f#ck would like to know how new mmo designs are entering the social era. And if people mean social media? I can join a soccer social media group and never actually play soccer so please tell me how social media actually helps an in game community where the entire concept of the game is driven by immersion (meaning within the boundries of the game itself). Many players now are as about immersed into the game as teenage girls with iphones are as immersed within the world around them.
You stay sassy!
yes.. i was very careful to add that it would be a 3 man grouping experience and limited to "say" i.e 10-15 feet around you. Voice communication should only ever be with someone in your direct online presence.
i believe in a 3 man dungeon crawling scenario with friends the voice chat would be a godsend. More than that and i agree it can be like chewing aluminum foil.
Won't do it. How many people are within /say range at your average AH terminal or local hang out spot? Without social etiquette in gaming getting a monumental shit or a mechanics change of voice chat features, it won't end well. A 3 man dungeon... A further enforcement of the holy trinity with no room for anything else? No thanks.
That was my first reaction to the thread title. To the OP, it's always been social.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
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