Originally posted by disstress Brad-I'm not a big PvP player, nor a big crafter, but I truly believe I could be, which is why they are both important for Vanguard -- our next game will offer PvP and Crafting systems that will appeal to the type of gamer I am as well as the traditional player. Brad-PvP is still important to us and will be available in alternate ruleset servers. As for balance, the combat formulae, etc., will be different for PvP, so it will be much easier to balance the two systems From the FAQ:15.2 Will there be Player vs. Player servers? Yes, and hopefully several variants. How many might be available at launch is up in the air at this point. Now this isn't from Brads lips, but just as good: http://www.thesafehouse.org/gallery/albums/album06/SafehouseE3Video2.wmv
But I'm just a lying doochebag kiddie that is spouting lies and slander and should be shot or drawn and quartered or whatever it is that PvE people pretend to do.
And how does ANY of that contradict what I've said? Where in ANY of that is the word 'promise'? How has ANY of it changed over time?
You will (likely) get PvP servers at launch. You will (probably) get a PvP system that is more thought-out, and balanced than what we saw in EQ1.
How, exactly, are you being given a great big **** you somehow, with the plans changing at any point in Vanguards development?
Originally posted by Feyshtey Originally posted by disstress Brad-I'm not a big PvP player, nor a big crafter, but I truly believe I could be, which is why they are both important for Vanguard -- our next game will offer PvP and Crafting systems that will appeal to the type of gamer I am as well as the traditional player. Brad-PvP is still important to us and will be available in alternate ruleset servers. As for balance, the combat formulae, etc., will be different for PvP, so it will be much easier to balance the two systems From the FAQ:15.2 Will there be Player vs. Player servers? Yes, and hopefully several variants. How many might be available at launch is up in the air at this point. Now this isn't from Brads lips, but just as good: http://www.thesafehouse.org/gallery/albums/album06/SafehouseE3Video2.wmvBut I'm just a lying doochebag kiddie that is spouting lies and slander and should be shot or drawn and quartered or whatever it is that PvE people pretend to do.And how does ANY of that contradict what I've said? Where in ANY of that is the word 'promise'? How has ANY of it changed over time? You will (likely) get PvP servers at launch.You will (probably) get a PvP system that is more thought-out, and balanced than what we saw in EQ1. How, exactly, are you being given a great big **** you somehow, with the plans changing at any point in Vanguards development?
OK someone saying, yes we will have pvp servers at launch, then having Brad say, no we changed our mind and we will not be doing that
I just came here to inform people of the PvP situation. You have allready displayed your disintrest in that ruleset. You have turned this thread into tons of nonsense. I have a video of a Sigil employee saying there will be PvP on alternate rulesets ^^two posts up. and I have the quote at the beginning of this thread from Brad, saying that will not be the case.
And BTW, the PvP system wasn't thought out or balanced in EQ. It had rules that required the GMs to interviene when they were broken. It was a poorly constructed gankfest implemented because of UO's success. I don't know how this has changed since I left EQ for Lineage:The Blood Pledge when I heard Richard Garriot was coming on board.
Just because they don't say omg I swear on lord istars graves that thou shalt havest thine pvp servers, doesn't mean that it wasn't promised. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=promise A video of a Sigil dev talking about the fact that PvP servers would be at release is a promise.
Originally Posted by hallower I don't expect much PvP info until just before release, with the exception of duels and the like. I don't think the alternate servers are a high priority at this point.
I'd like to know what specifically will make gameplay more predictable or less predictable than EQ. Will players know what mobs spawn along a certain road? where they spawn? what they'll drop? I'm hoping for a lot less predictability.
I'd also like to hear more about what they're doing with quests.
This is true. While PvP is very important to us, expect EQ-like PvP at first (though hopefully more balanced). Please don't take this as an indication that we don't feel it's important. It's really just a matter of how much time we have to finish the game. I would much rather keep improving PvP after-launch than rush it, or rush something else.
We're at a point now where we're more focused on what it will take to get this game out the door. We have to change from idealists to realists. I'm letting you guys know this to manage expectations -- I think it's the right thing to do.
We have a LOT of ideas for alternate ruleset servers, and not all of them are PvP related. We are architecting things such that implementing variations in the mechanics won't be too hard. So we have big plans, but we also have to draw a line somewhre and say 'this is good enough to ship -- Vanguard will be an awesome game at launch, but then become even more awesome'.
[Complex Guild creation and management toos are the] same with PvP. We've said that it's important to us and that we'll support it via alternate ruleset server(s), but purposely haven't elaborated much more on the subject because some of the cooler ideas and variants may have to wait until after launch.
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoobie ... 2. Will PvP be on a grand scale? Castle sieges, keep defense, ambushes, all of these come to mind. In my mind Shadowbane has set the bar as far as PvP concept goes, if you've played it how might you compare your PvP in regards to their's? And lastly, will there be an RP/PVP server?
2. Not at lauch. We hope to have a basic PvP server or two at launch. Alternate ruleset servers in the future *could* feature siege stuff like Shadowbane & L2 have, etc. but would require some work after launch and we'd have to be certain there was enough demand for it, etc. It's all cool stuff, but keep in mind Vanguard is primarily a PvE game.
Originally Posted by PhantomRogue But the big question.
There are gonna be PvP servers at launch right?!
That is the plan, yes, but it's too early to promise. It makes a lot of sense because at least 10% (if not more) are interested in PvP, not to mention several of the Sigil designers.
Originally Posted by Silent Is there going to be a FFA dedicated PvP server?
I looked around the site and found no mention of this.
Hope there is! Thanks for the vine.
Defnitely an FFA, as well as lots of other variants we want to try out.
What I can't commit to this early, however, is which alternate ruleset servers might be available at launch, or when after launch they might go live. But that a strong desire and committment is there... of that there is no doubt
I've bolded the relevant portions for you.
Now, explain where the 'promise' is Explain how you've lost anything during development.
If anything, you've gained much more grounded hope that PvP will be in Vanguard on alternate servers as time as gone by. You've constantly needled further and further into the game's developement, and over time, gained more hope that more types of PvP will be supported early. But there's never been a promise. There's never been a backing out of what might be possible.
... Or could you provide me with the recent quote saying that anything about PvP is no longer a consideration? You've lost nothing through the game's development. You've only gained. And yet, somehow, that's a **** you....
Quotes = Aradune Mithara: Originally Posted by hallowerI don't expect much PvP info until just before release, with the exception of duels and the like. I don't think the alternate servers are a high priority at this point.I'd like to know what specifically will make gameplay more predictable or less predictable than EQ. Will players know what mobs spawn along a certain road? where they spawn? what they'll drop? I'm hoping for a lot less predictability.I'd also like to hear more about what they're doing with quests. This is true. While PvP is very important to us, expect EQ-like PvP at first (though hopefully more balanced). Please don't take this as an indication that we don't feel it's important. It's really just a matter of how much time we have to finish the game. I would much rather keep improving PvP after-launch than rush it, or rush something else.We're at a point now where we're more focused on what it will take to get this game out the door. We have to change from idealists to realists. I'm letting you guys know this to manage expectations -- I think it's the right thing to do.We have a LOT of ideas for alternate ruleset servers, and not all of them are PvP related. We are architecting things such that implementing variations in the mechanics won't be too hard. So we have big plans, but we also have to draw a line somewhre and say 'this is good enough to ship -- Vanguard will be an awesome game at launch, but then become even more awesome'. And this:[url=http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?postid=283251&postcount=5]
[Complex Guild creation and management toos are the] same with PvP. We've said that it's important to us and that we'll support it via alternate ruleset server(s), but purposely haven't elaborated much more on the subject because some of the cooler ideas and variants may have to wait until after launch. And this:[url=http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=275353&highlight=pvp#post275353]
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoobie...2. Will PvP be on a grand scale? Castle sieges, keep defense, ambushes, all of these come to mind. In my mind Shadowbane has set the bar as far as PvP concept goes, if you've played it how might you compare your PvP in regards to their's? And lastly, will there be an RP/PVP server? 2. Not at lauch. We hope to have a basic PvP server or two at launch. Alternate ruleset servers in the future *could* feature siege stuff like Shadowbane & L2 have, etc. but would require some work after launch and we'd have to be certain there was enough demand for it, etc. It's all cool stuff, but keep in mind Vanguard is primarily a PvE game. And this:[url=http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=111903&highlight=pvp#post111903]
Originally Posted by PhantomRogueBut the big question.There are gonna be PvP servers at launch right?! That is the plan, yes, but it's too early to promise. It makes a lot of sense because at least 10% (if not more) are interested in PvP, not to mention several of the Sigil designers. And this:[url=http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=72440&highlight=pvp#post72440]
Originally Posted by SilentIs there going to be a FFA dedicated PvP server?I looked around the site and found no mention of this.Hope there is! Thanks for the vine. Defnitely an FFA, as well as lots of other variants we want to try out.What I can't commit to this early, however, is which alternate ruleset servers might be available at launch, or when after launch they might go live. But that a strong desire and committment is there... of that there is no doubt I've bolded the relevant portions for you. Now, explain where the 'promise' is Explain how you've lost anything during development. If anything, you've gained much more grounded hope that PvP will be in Vanguard on alternate servers as time as gone by. You've constantly needled further and further into the game's developement, and over time, gained more hope that more types of PvP will be supported early. But there's never been a promise. There's never been a backing out of what might be possible. ... Or could you provide me with the recent quote saying that anything about PvP is no longer a consideration? You've lost nothing through the game's development. You've only gained. And yet, somehow, that's a **** you....[/b][/quote]
The video link is my evidence that they said, alot of this stuff has been added since, as with the quote from Brad at the beginning.
AGAIN, IM JUST ******* TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT THE LACK OF PVP IN THIS GAME, I KNOW ALOT OF PEOPLE WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS, YOU TURNED THIS INTO A MORONIC ARGUEMENT. GET OVER YOURSELF.
Originally posted by disstress ok someone saying, yes we will have pvp servers at launch then having brad say no we changed our mind and we will not be doing that
WHERE!? Where was it stated that anything has changed?! When did Brad say he changed his mind? Where's the link to the quote saying there is no longer a plan for PvP alternate rules servers?
EVERYTHING I read says that PvP is more and more likely, in more incarnations, at release now more than at any time in Vanguards development. Which is why I find it so annoying for you to come to forums now, and tell people that the picture has changed for the worse for PvP fans. It hasn't.
I just came here to inform people of the PvP situation. You have allready displayed your disintrest in that ruleset. You have turned this thread into tons of nonsense. I have a video of a Sigil employee saying there will be PvP on alternate rulesets ^^two posts up. and I have the quote at the biginning of this thread from Brad, saying that will not be the case.
You need to go re-read the entire thread you're pulling that quote from. That quote was in response to speculation on RVR type pvp servers. Which were NEVER promised, or even suggested.
And BTW, the PvP system wasn't thought out or balanced in EQ. It had rules that required the GMs to interviene when they were broken. It was a poorly constructed gankfest implemented because of UO's success. I don't know how this has changed since I left EQ for Lineage:The Blood Pledge when I heard Richard Garriot was coming on board.
Agreed. The PvP systems in EQ were largely deficient. So when the devs of Vanguard have been saying since day 1, that those are closer to the types of systems you will see on the alternate rules servers in Vanguard, but with improvements, where did you get the impression that Vanguard was going to be some end-all PvP game? That's a fault in your jumping to conclusions. Not in Sigil breaking 'promises'.
AGAIN, IM JUST ******* TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT THE LACK OF PVP IN THIS GAME, I KNOW ALOT OF PEOPLE WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS, YOU TURNED THIS INTO A MORONIC ARGUEMENT. GET OVER YOURSELF.
That is the whole point.....
You are telling people that there's a lack of PvP in Vanguard. By your definition, there has ALWAYS been a lack of PvP in Vanguard.
You're misinforming people. You're telling people that Sigil lied: They haven't. You're telling people that there is no PvP in Vanguard: There is.
That is my entire point here. You're 'just coming to the boards letting people know' falacies. I'm merely correcting you.
Distress, In Vanguard there will be PVP, maybe is not what you expected. You won't see any Lineage or WOW kind of PVP, and you won't see any RVR ala DAOC.
Sigil stated that there will be PVP, and they did not lie about that. But Sigil never said that there will be hardcore PVP, because basically Vanguard is a PVE game, that's what they said all along.
I like PVP, and when I feel like to kick some butt, I play WOW. But personally I don't feel that Vanguard needs any PVP at all. We need a good PVE game to play, because there is nothing decent on the market at the moment, and I hope that Vanguard will fulfill our needs. PVP is not important in this game, people that wants to play Vanguard is not interested in PVP. So there is no point in making a big fuss about it.
I'm really looking forward to Vanguard and hope that some type of PvP system is implemented.
PvE is cool and all, especially with a great story line to follow. The problem is that PvE system are quickly/easily worked out and any game at that point becomes stale. That's where PvP, even in a limited form, can help.
I think WoW has the best implementation of a PvP system. Not necessarily the mechanics of the system, but their server setup. I like that the they have both PvP and PvE servers. Best of both worlds imo. ^_^
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Brad-PvP is still important to us and will be available in alternate ruleset servers. As for balance, the combat formulae, etc., will be different for PvP, so it will be much easier to balance the two systems From the FAQ:15.2 Will there be Player vs. Player servers? Yes, and hopefully several variants. How many might be available at launch is up in the air at this point. Now this isn't from Brads lips, but just as good: http://www.thesafehouse.org/gallery/albums/album06/SafehouseE3Video2.wmv But I'm just a lying doochebag kiddie that is spouting lies and slander and should be shot or drawn and quartered or whatever it is that PvE people pretend to do.
sadly i think you misuderstood these quotes, none of these quotes say theres not going to be pvp in vanguard in now way, shape, or form.
the only thing i can think of is that you think this quote.... "Brad-PvP is still important to us and will be available in alternate ruleset servers. As for balance, the combat formulae, etc., will be different for PvP, so it will be much easier to balance the two systems"..... is in some way saying pvp will not be in vanguard. if so thats not what he saying bro, what hes saying is he don tlike pvp and crafting but will learn to like it in vanguard.
i dont see any way possible any of those other quotes say theres not going to be pvp.... so um either show us the right quote that you are refering to or reread the quotes you posted and realize thats they never said there would not be pvp in vanguard
Originally posted by angerr Originally posted by disstress
Brad-PvP is still important to us and will be available in alternate ruleset servers. As for balance, the combat formulae, etc., will be different for PvP, so it will be much easier to balance the two systems From the FAQ:15.2 Will there be Player vs. Player servers? Yes, and hopefully several variants. How many might be available at launch is up in the air at this point. Now this isn't from Brads lips, but just as good: http://www.thesafehouse.org/gallery/albums/album06/SafehouseE3Video2.wmv But I'm just a lying doochebag kiddie that is spouting lies and slander and should be shot or drawn and quartered or whatever it is that PvE people pretend to do. sadly i think you misuderstood these quotes, none of these quotes say theres not going to be pvp in vanguard in now way, shape, or form.
the only thing i can think of is that you think this quote.... "Brad-PvP is still important to us and will be available in alternate ruleset servers. As for balance, the combat formulae, etc., will be different for PvP, so it will be much easier to balance the two systems"..... is in some way saying pvp will not be in vanguard. if so thats not what he saying bro, what hes saying is he don tlike pvp and crafting but will learn to like it in vanguard.
i dont see any way possible any of those other quotes say theres not going to be pvp.... so um either show us the right quote that you are refering to or reread the quotes you posted and realize thats they never said there would not be pvp in vanguard
ok dude go to the first post and read it, no need for rabid fanbois here, this was not a post to tell PvE people to come and cry, this is good for you guys, no need to worry about PvPrs, as most laugh at the thought of EQ PvP all over again
The OP hasn't told the entire story. Sigil has said it has every intention of implementing PvP servers. But for exactly the reason the OP complains of - that they want it to be more challenging and tactically rich than some previous games - they are holding off until they can get it right.
The game is about a year from release. No reason to have a tantrum at this stage.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I do believe PvP is a big draw for many gamers, some of us want to PvM , nothing more, some only PvM cause they have to get to the point to be able to PvP well.. (items lvls etc..) Now I can understand how IF there were no PvP in the game which there will be, to be upset by this.
But onto the part that caught my eye... Develop PvP first? What kind of comment is that, I mean sure... PvP is awesome, gets the blood pumpin', makes us work harder and be more competitive. I would think the best way to create a well-made pvp system is to work out the kinks that would come up while creating the PvM world, which most of their paying customers will be enjoying.
All in all I think a game should be judged by its content, good PvP requires the game to allow the player to use their skill, and would take a fraction of the content to appease the gamers.
I do not think pvp is a big atraction to "many" many gamers, i think its an atraction to "most" gamers, lets face it, the 3 biggest mmorpgs of all time are pvp games, Lineage 1, Lineage 2 and World of Warcraft.
The numbers have shown and will show that pvp content is one of the biggest draws a mmorpg has, everquest 2 dismissed it as trivial, look at their current content, what was the biggest marketing strategy they used? they marked up their new pvp content, everything else was secondary.
I see this as a natural progression in mmorpgs, we all love pve content, its the heart and soul of a mmorpg, the strugle agaisnt the enviroment and the quest for epic rewards, but pve can only take you so far, a game based mainly on pve will get boring very fast with the constant grind, it will need constant expansion and a very high pace, as everquest showed, pve content runs dry very very fast, so developers need to add more and more content at a fast pace to keep their subscribers, pvp is a method to entertain players and keep the "carrot on the stick" so developers can take their time to implement more pve content with higher quality, we all know that the rushed expansion for EQ ultimatly ruined the game, so why is sigil making the same mistake?
They need to add a very robust pvp system, with ranks, rewards and battles between factions, it will add to the sense of realism in the game, because there is never a world without strife and conflict, especialy a world with so many races. IF Sigil fails on the pvp content, then my friends, they have a problem, from what i have seen, the pve content is not shaping into anything that great, it seems they want to implement a player driven game, like SWG and EvE online, i think that is a good idea to some degree, but pvp is an essential part of a player driven world, i hope they manage to pull it off.
I do not think pvp is a big atraction to "many" many gamers, i think its an atraction to "most" gamers, lets face it, the 3 biggest mmorpgs of all time are pvp games, Lineage 1, Lineage 2 and World of Warcraft.
The numbers have shown and will show that pvp content is one of the biggest draws a mmorpg has, everquest 2 dismissed it as trivial, look at their current content, what was the biggest marketing strategy they used? they marked up their new pvp content, everything else was secondary.
I've never played Lineage I, or II. So I must base my own assessment on WoW (which I do play).
Have a look around in WoW sometime. It takes 10 honorable kills to get the title Private (Alliance) or Scout (Horde). Go to the most busy areas of the game, and you will see hundreds of cap level players with no title at all. And many many more with Private or Scout as their title.
That suggest to me, that even in a game that supports PvP, the majority of the players aren't even participating in it. I play WoW, and have for a few months. I've had 2 duels, and one honorable kill. And the honorable kill was only because some lower level horde goon ran straight into Stormwind, and I just hit auto attack while I was passing him, and it happend to be enough to finish him off with all the damage the NPC's were dealing him.
Just because a game supports PvP, doesn't mean that all the players of it are participating in PvP. To suggest otherwise would be like suggesting that everyone who goes to a professional sporting event is an overwieght guy that swills beer, eats hotdogs, and pinches waitresses' asses.
I see this as a natural progression in mmorpgs, we all love pve content, its the heart and soul of a mmorpg, the strugle agaisnt the enviroment and the quest for epic rewards, but pve can only take you so far, a game based mainly on pve will get boring very fast with the constant grind, it will need constant expansion and a very high pace, as everquest showed, pve content runs dry very very fast, so developers need to add more and more content at a fast pace to keep their subscribers, pvp is a method to entertain players and keep the "carrot on the stick" so developers can take their time to implement more pve content with higher quality, we all know that the rushed expansion for EQ ultimatly ruined the game, so why is sigil making the same mistake?
And there is a segment of the MMO audience who want exactly that; A game that is PvE, has constant developement, and a fast pace.... And who aren't compelled by PvP in the slightest in the context of MMO games.
I like PvP. I enjoy the hell out of it. IF it's in a game designed entirely around PvP, like Battlefield2, or Counter-Strike, or Starcraft. I find that quite entertaining. But there is so much more to an MMO. And I don't like trying to explore and enjoy all the aspects in MMO's with all the clutter of PvP. It's a personal preference shared by hundreds of thousands of gamers, as evidenced by the fact that there are people who have/are playing EQ for 5-6 years.
They need to add a very robust pvp system, with ranks, rewards and battles between factions, it will add to the sense of realism in the game, because there is never a world without strife and conflict, especialy a world with so many races. IF Sigil fails on the pvp content, then my friends, they have a problem, from what i have seen, the pve content is not shaping into anything that great, it seems they want to implement a player driven game, like SWG and EvE online, i think that is a good idea to some degree, but pvp is an essential part of a player driven world, i hope they manage to pull it off.
They would only have a problem with people who are after a predominantly PvP game. Of which there are fewer than you seem to believe. I won't suggest that even the majority of MMO players are like me. But there's certainly enough of them to support several non-PvP games quite well.
I agree with you Feyshtey WoW's success has little or nothing to do with PvP.
Most people who play WoW do not PvP. Most people realize that the mob A1 in WoW is greatly superior to the average WoW players A1. I would guess that killing mobs is much challenging than killing a WoW player. Add in that NPCs are better company, more mature and much more interesting to talk to than your average WoW player and you can see why people prefer pve in WoW rather than PvP. The poor player A1 is essentially why WoW is a solo game.
Originally posted by Zippy I agree with you Feyshtey WoW's success has little or nothing to do with PvP. Most people who play WoW do not PvP. Most people realize that the mob A1 in WoW is greatly superior to the average WoW players A1. I would guess that killing mobs is much challenging than killing a WoW player. Add in that NPCs are better company, more mature and much more interesting to talk to than your average WoW player and you can see why people prefer pve in WoW rather than PvP. The poor player A1 is essentially why WoW is a solo game.
How is WoW a solo game? You have no idea what you are talking about. No end game content in WoW is solo.
40 people for Black wing lair, 30+ people for MC, 30+ people for Ony, 20 people for the new zul'grub, 30+ people for AV, 10 for WSG, 15 for AB
And people don't pvp in wow? WTF are you smoking? Even on the RP servers that I logged into, people were PvPing in STV.
If the majority of people in WoW didn't PvP they wouldn't focus on BGs. Granted I never logged onto a PvE server, just PvP and RP.
I find it funny that the people that bash wow, played it for all of 25 seconds and now are experts on everything involved with it. If wow had no pvp it would be a much smaller game.
How is WoW a solo game? You have no idea what you are talking about. No end game content in WoW is solo. 40 people for Black wing lair, 30+ people for MC, 30+ people for Ony, 20 people for the new zul'grub, 30+ people for AV, 10 for WSG, 15 for AB And people don't pvp in wow? WTF are you smoking? Even on the RP servers that I logged into, people were PvPing in STV. If the majority of people in WoW didn't PvP they wouldn't focus on BGs. Granted I never logged onto a PvE server, just PvP and RP. I find it funny that the people that bash wow, played it for all of 25 seconds and now are experts on everything involved with it. If wow had no pvp it would be a much smaller game.
I find it funny that you assume a person you isn't completely thrilled about a game must not play it and be able to appreciate it's good points.
I can appreciate WoW for what it is. But it's not the end-all game for me. Not by a longshot. It's a passtime, but will never be a passion.
All those BG's you're talking about? Yeah, great. It'd be even better if they were consistently open. You literally have to log in at 7am on a Saturday to get into the queue, and wait for the majority of the day to get in. Now this might be evidence that the instances are filled up... but on my server (PVE) it's not. There's no one on the Horde side joining because they're outnumbered. So the instance never even opens. The only ones you can get into with any regularity at all are the 15 man instances. And even those are hit and miss.
I leveled from 29 to 44 in STV. I saw 2 PVP fights in that entire time. The only other PVP that happens there is when the chest is dropped in the arena. I leveled for quite a while on another character around Southshore, where there used to be some PVP. But that was 20 on 10. Which suggests that there are only about 30 people total interested. You can say the same on rare occasion about the Crossroads. Maybe 30 people ge involved. These do not a majority make. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
The bulk of the players on the PVE servers aren't interested in PVP. They want the character progression. Which is why they'd rather farm instances for loot, or do the end-game raids, than participate in the Battlegrounds or in PVP in general. You cannot contest the evidence that few players have PVP titles, when PVP requires only 10 kills to get a title! Start up a newbie on any PVE server, run to the auction house, and have a look for yourself.
Originally posted by Zippy I agree with you Feyshtey WoW's success has little or nothing to do with PvP. Most people who play WoW do not PvP. Most people realize that the mob A1 in WoW is greatly superior to the average WoW players A1. I would guess that killing mobs is much challenging than killing a WoW player. Add in that NPCs are better company, more mature and much more interesting to talk to than your average WoW player and you can see why people prefer pve in WoW rather than PvP. The poor player A1 is essentially why WoW is a solo game.
How is WoW a solo game? You have no idea what you are talking about. No end game content in WoW is solo. And people don't pvp in wow? WTF are you smoking? Even on the RP servers that I logged into, people were PvPing in STV. If the majority of people in WoW didn't PvP they wouldn't focus on BGs. Granted I never logged onto a PvE server, just PvP and RP. I find it funny that the people that bash wow, played it for all of 25 seconds and now are experts on everything involved with it. If wow had no pvp it would be a much smaller game.
You can quite happily solo all the way to level 60 in WoW if you want too, I know because I did it when I rolled up an alt. As for PvP, it is pretty dead in WoW with the exception of BGs which are just contrived fights, if I want a contrived fight like that I will just play GW or an FPS because they are FREE from monthly fees. There is next to no open PvP in the game anymore, which is what I originally played it for, BGs killed almost all of it. Why do open PvP when you can farm Honour in the BGs?
WoW is good until you reach level 60 for the first time (8/10 for the pre-60 stuff IMO), then it just turns into grinding the same handful of zones over and over. Its the first MMO I have played that managed to make me find PvP boring! For the level 60 stuff I would actually give it 2/10.
The biggest problem with PvP in WoW is however well you do in the BGs you never actually change anything ... isn't that the whole point of MMOs? ... to create a world where your actions actually have an impact and consequences! No-one cares if guild X or Y wins AV 20 times in a week, but people do care if a guild runs a successful relic raid in DAoC or an alliance gets crushed by another alliance in EVE for example.
The one thing WoW is good at is being an introduction to MMOs, it is easy to get to grips with and there is enough content to last a casual player until shortly after they hit 60.
Anyway, as this is a VSOH thread, I hope the developers of VSOH take some time to implement a PvP system where the actions of the players actually have an impact on the server environment rather than just bolting on a PvP mode like so many MMOs seem too.
Originally posted by shilak Anyway, as this is a VSOH thread, I hope the developers of VSOH take some time to implement a PvP system where the actions of the players actually have an impact on the server environment rather than just bolting on a PvP mode like so many MMOs seem too.
I 100% agree with this statement. If we wanted to play an FPS we would.
People need to be more specific when talking about PvP, What people really want to know is, will there be any loot drops during PvP, money, armor, or even a fricken ear.... untill then there is no such thing as PvP unless there is a real sense of loss or gain. am I right?
Originally posted by Aztec As long as people have the option to pvp then there won't be a problem. I like the way AC1 did it. You could be pvp one day and not the next.
In DAoC you also had the option, as well as WoW. I think the RvR PvP is the best way. (this is MY opinion) Many people enjoy hardcore PvP as well, looting bodies and ganking and that sort of thing, just not my bag.
Comments
And how does ANY of that contradict what I've said? Where in ANY of that is the word 'promise'? How has ANY of it changed over time?
You will (likely) get PvP servers at launch.
You will (probably) get a PvP system that is more thought-out, and balanced than what we saw in EQ1.
How, exactly, are you being given a great big **** you somehow, with the plans changing at any point in Vanguards development?
-Feyshtey-
OK someone saying, yes we will have pvp servers at launch, then having Brad say, no we changed our mind and we will not be doing that
I just came here to inform people of the PvP situation. You have allready displayed your disintrest in that ruleset. You have turned this thread into tons of nonsense. I have a video of a Sigil employee saying there will be PvP on alternate rulesets ^^two posts up. and I have the quote at the beginning of this thread from Brad, saying that will not be the case.
And BTW, the PvP system wasn't thought out or balanced in EQ. It had rules that required the GMs to interviene when they were broken. It was a poorly constructed gankfest implemented because of UO's success. I don't know how this has changed since I left EQ for Lineage:The Blood Pledge when I heard Richard Garriot was coming on board.
Just because they don't say omg I swear on lord istars graves that thou shalt havest thine pvp servers, doesn't mean that it wasn't promised. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=promise
A video of a Sigil dev talking about the fact that PvP servers would be at release is a promise.
Here are a couple more Brad quotes for you to chew on :
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?postid=369119&postcount=31
And this:
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?postid=283251&postcount=5
And this:
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=275353&highlight=pvp#post275353
And this:
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=111903&highlight=pvp#post111903
And this:
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=72440&highlight=pvp#post72440
I've bolded the relevant portions for you.
Now, explain where the 'promise' is
Explain how you've lost anything during development.
If anything, you've gained much more grounded hope that PvP will be in Vanguard on alternate servers as time as gone by. You've constantly needled further and further into the game's developement, and over time, gained more hope that more types of PvP will be supported early. But there's never been a promise. There's never been a backing out of what might be possible.
... Or could you provide me with the recent quote saying that anything about PvP is no longer a consideration? You've lost nothing through the game's development. You've only gained. And yet, somehow, that's a **** you....
-Feyshtey-
[quote]Originally posted by Feyshtey
[b]Here are a couple more Brad quotes for you to chew on : [url=http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?postid=369119&postcount=31]
Quotes = Aradune Mithara:
Originally Posted by hallowerI don't expect much PvP info until just before release, with the exception of duels and the like. I don't think the alternate servers are a high priority at this point.I'd like to know what specifically will make gameplay more predictable or less predictable than EQ. Will players know what mobs spawn along a certain road? where they spawn? what they'll drop? I'm hoping for a lot less predictability.I'd also like to hear more about what they're doing with quests.
This is true. While PvP is very important to us, expect EQ-like PvP at first (though hopefully more balanced). Please don't take this as an indication that we don't feel it's important. It's really just a matter of how much time we have to finish the game. I would much rather keep improving PvP after-launch than rush it, or rush something else.We're at a point now where we're more focused on what it will take to get this game out the door. We have to change from idealists to realists. I'm letting you guys know this to manage expectations -- I think it's the right thing to do.We have a LOT of ideas for alternate ruleset servers, and not all of them are PvP related. We are architecting things such that implementing variations in the mechanics won't be too hard. So we have big plans, but we also have to draw a line somewhre and say 'this is good enough to ship -- Vanguard will be an awesome game at launch, but then become even more awesome'.
And this:[url=http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showpost.php?postid=283251&postcount=5]
[Complex Guild creation and management toos are the] same with PvP. We've said that it's important to us and that we'll support it via alternate ruleset server(s), but purposely haven't elaborated much more on the subject because some of the cooler ideas and variants may have to wait until after launch.
And this:[url=http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=275353&highlight=pvp#post275353]
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoobie...2. Will PvP be on a grand scale? Castle sieges, keep defense, ambushes, all of these come to mind. In my mind Shadowbane has set the bar as far as PvP concept goes, if you've played it how might you compare your PvP in regards to their's? And lastly, will there be an RP/PVP server?
2. Not at lauch. We hope to have a basic PvP server or two at launch. Alternate ruleset servers in the future *could* feature siege stuff like Shadowbane & L2 have, etc. but would require some work after launch and we'd have to be certain there was enough demand for it, etc. It's all cool stuff, but keep in mind Vanguard is primarily a PvE game.
And this:[url=http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=111903&highlight=pvp#post111903]
Originally Posted by PhantomRogueBut the big question.There are gonna be PvP servers at launch right?!
That is the plan, yes, but it's too early to promise. It makes a lot of sense because at least 10% (if not more) are interested in PvP, not to mention several of the Sigil designers.
And this:[url=http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=72440&highlight=pvp#post72440]
Originally Posted by SilentIs there going to be a FFA dedicated PvP server?I looked around the site and found no mention of this.Hope there is! Thanks for the vine.
Defnitely an FFA, as well as lots of other variants we want to try out.What I can't commit to this early, however, is which alternate ruleset servers might be available at launch, or when after launch they might go live. But that a strong desire and committment is there... of that there is no doubt
I've bolded the relevant portions for you.
Now, explain where the 'promise' is Explain how you've lost anything during development.
If anything, you've gained much more grounded hope that PvP will be in Vanguard on alternate servers as time as gone by. You've constantly needled further and further into the game's developement, and over time, gained more hope that more types of PvP will be supported early. But there's never been a promise. There's never been a backing out of what might be possible.
... Or could you provide me with the recent quote saying that anything about PvP is no longer a consideration? You've lost nothing through the game's development. You've only gained. And yet, somehow, that's a **** you....[/b][/quote]
The video link is my evidence that they said, alot of this stuff has been added since, as with the quote from Brad at the beginning.
AGAIN, IM JUST ******* TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT THE LACK OF PVP IN THIS GAME, I KNOW ALOT OF PEOPLE WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS, YOU TURNED THIS INTO A MORONIC ARGUEMENT. GET OVER YOURSELF.
WHERE!? Where was it stated that anything has changed?! When did Brad say he changed his mind? Where's the link to the quote saying there is no longer a plan for PvP alternate rules servers?
EVERYTHING I read says that PvP is more and more likely, in more incarnations, at release now more than at any time in Vanguards development. Which is why I find it so annoying for you to come to forums now, and tell people that the picture has changed for the worse for PvP fans. It hasn't.
You need to go re-read the entire thread you're pulling that quote from. That quote was in response to speculation on RVR type pvp servers. Which were NEVER promised, or even suggested.
Agreed. The PvP systems in EQ were largely deficient. So when the devs of Vanguard have been saying since day 1, that those are closer to the types of systems you will see on the alternate rules servers in Vanguard, but with improvements, where did you get the impression that Vanguard was going to be some end-all PvP game? That's a fault in your jumping to conclusions. Not in Sigil breaking 'promises'.
-Feyshtey-
That is the whole point.....
You are telling people that there's a lack of PvP in Vanguard. By your definition, there has ALWAYS been a lack of PvP in Vanguard.
You're misinforming people.
You're telling people that Sigil lied: They haven't.
You're telling people that there is no PvP in Vanguard: There is.
That is my entire point here. You're 'just coming to the boards letting people know' falacies. I'm merely correcting you.
-Feyshtey-
Distress,
In Vanguard there will be PVP, maybe is not what you expected.
You won't see any Lineage or WOW kind of PVP, and you won't see any RVR ala DAOC.
Sigil stated that there will be PVP, and they did not lie about that.
But Sigil never said that there will be hardcore PVP, because basically Vanguard is a PVE game, that's what they said all along.
I like PVP, and when I feel like to kick some butt, I play WOW.
But personally I don't feel that Vanguard needs any PVP at all.
We need a good PVE game to play, because there is nothing decent on the market at the moment, and I hope that Vanguard will fulfill our needs.
PVP is not important in this game, people that wants to play Vanguard is not interested in PVP.
So there is no point in making a big fuss about it.
I'm really looking forward to Vanguard and hope that some type of PvP system is implemented.
PvE is cool and all, especially with a great story line to follow. The problem is that PvE system are quickly/easily worked out and any game at that point becomes stale. That's where PvP, even in a limited form, can help.
I think WoW has the best implementation of a PvP system. Not necessarily the mechanics of the system, but their server setup. I like that the they have both PvP and PvE servers. Best of both worlds imo. ^_^
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
sadly i think you misuderstood these quotes, none of these quotes say theres not going to be pvp in vanguard in now way, shape, or form.
the only thing i can think of is that you think this quote.... "Brad-PvP is still important to us and will be available in alternate ruleset servers. As for balance, the combat formulae, etc., will be different for PvP, so it will be much easier to balance the two systems"..... is in some way saying pvp will not be in vanguard. if so thats not what he saying bro, what hes saying is he don tlike pvp and crafting but will learn to like it in vanguard.
i dont see any way possible any of those other quotes say theres not going to be pvp.... so um either show us the right quote that you are refering to or reread the quotes you posted and realize thats they never said there would not be pvp in vanguard
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
ok dude go to the first post and read it, no need for rabid fanbois here, this was not a post to tell PvE people to come and cry, this is good for you guys, no need to worry about PvPrs, as most laugh at the thought of EQ PvP all over again
The OP hasn't told the entire story. Sigil has said it has every intention of implementing PvP servers. But for exactly the reason the OP complains of - that they want it to be more challenging and tactically rich than some previous games - they are holding off until they can get it right.
The game is about a year from release. No reason to have a tantrum at this stage.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
But onto the part that caught my eye... Develop PvP first? What kind of comment is that, I mean sure... PvP is awesome, gets the blood pumpin', makes us work harder and be more competitive. I would think the best way to create a well-made pvp system is to work out the kinks that would come up while creating the PvM world, which most of their paying customers will be enjoying.
All in all I think a game should be judged by its content, good PvP requires the game to allow the player to use their skill, and would take a fraction of the content to appease the gamers.
I do not think pvp is a big atraction to "many" many gamers, i think its an atraction to "most" gamers, lets face it, the 3 biggest mmorpgs of all time are pvp games, Lineage 1, Lineage 2 and World of Warcraft.
The numbers have shown and will show that pvp content is one of the biggest draws a mmorpg has, everquest 2 dismissed it as trivial, look at their current content, what was the biggest marketing strategy they used? they marked up their new pvp content, everything else was secondary.
I see this as a natural progression in mmorpgs, we all love pve content, its the heart and soul of a mmorpg, the strugle agaisnt the enviroment and the quest for epic rewards, but pve can only take you so far, a game based mainly on pve will get boring very fast with the constant grind, it will need constant expansion and a very high pace, as everquest showed, pve content runs dry very very fast, so developers need to add more and more content at a fast pace to keep their subscribers, pvp is a method to entertain players and keep the "carrot on the stick" so developers can take their time to implement more pve content with higher quality, we all know that the rushed expansion for EQ ultimatly ruined the game, so why is sigil making the same mistake?
They need to add a very robust pvp system, with ranks, rewards and battles between factions, it will add to the sense of realism in the game, because there is never a world without strife and conflict, especialy a world with so many races. IF Sigil fails on the pvp content, then my friends, they have a problem, from what i have seen, the pve content is not shaping into anything that great, it seems they want to implement a player driven game, like SWG and EvE online, i think that is a good idea to some degree, but pvp is an essential part of a player driven world, i hope they manage to pull it off.
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
I've never played Lineage I, or II. So I must base my own assessment on WoW (which I do play).
Have a look around in WoW sometime. It takes 10 honorable kills to get the title Private (Alliance) or Scout (Horde). Go to the most busy areas of the game, and you will see hundreds of cap level players with no title at all. And many many more with Private or Scout as their title.
That suggest to me, that even in a game that supports PvP, the majority of the players aren't even participating in it. I play WoW, and have for a few months. I've had 2 duels, and one honorable kill. And the honorable kill was only because some lower level horde goon ran straight into Stormwind, and I just hit auto attack while I was passing him, and it happend to be enough to finish him off with all the damage the NPC's were dealing him.
Just because a game supports PvP, doesn't mean that all the players of it are participating in PvP. To suggest otherwise would be like suggesting that everyone who goes to a professional sporting event is an overwieght guy that swills beer, eats hotdogs, and pinches waitresses' asses.
And there is a segment of the MMO audience who want exactly that; A game that is PvE, has constant developement, and a fast pace.... And who aren't compelled by PvP in the slightest in the context of MMO games.
I like PvP. I enjoy the hell out of it. IF it's in a game designed entirely around PvP, like Battlefield2, or Counter-Strike, or Starcraft. I find that quite entertaining. But there is so much more to an MMO. And I don't like trying to explore and enjoy all the aspects in MMO's with all the clutter of PvP. It's a personal preference shared by hundreds of thousands of gamers, as evidenced by the fact that there are people who have/are playing EQ for 5-6 years.
They would only have a problem with people who are after a predominantly PvP game. Of which there are fewer than you seem to believe. I won't suggest that even the majority of MMO players are like me. But there's certainly enough of them to support several non-PvP games quite well.
-Feyshtey-
I agree with you Feyshtey WoW's success has little or nothing to do with PvP.
Most people who play WoW do not PvP. Most people realize that the mob A1 in WoW is greatly superior to the average WoW players A1. I would guess that killing mobs is much challenging than killing a WoW player. Add in that NPCs are better company, more mature and much more interesting to talk to than your average WoW player and you can see why people prefer pve in WoW rather than PvP. The poor player A1 is essentially why WoW is a solo game.
How is WoW a solo game? You have no idea what you are talking about. No end game content in WoW is solo.
40 people for Black wing lair, 30+ people for MC, 30+ people for Ony, 20 people for the new zul'grub, 30+ people for AV, 10 for WSG, 15 for AB
And people don't pvp in wow? WTF are you smoking? Even on the RP servers that I logged into, people were PvPing in STV.
If the majority of people in WoW didn't PvP they wouldn't focus on BGs. Granted I never logged onto a PvE server, just PvP and RP.
I find it funny that the people that bash wow, played it for all of 25 seconds and now are experts on everything involved with it. If wow had no pvp it would be a much smaller game.
I find it funny that you assume a person you isn't completely thrilled about a game must not play it and be able to appreciate it's good points.
I can appreciate WoW for what it is. But it's not the end-all game for me. Not by a longshot. It's a passtime, but will never be a passion.
All those BG's you're talking about? Yeah, great. It'd be even better if they were consistently open. You literally have to log in at 7am on a Saturday to get into the queue, and wait for the majority of the day to get in. Now this might be evidence that the instances are filled up... but on my server (PVE) it's not. There's no one on the Horde side joining because they're outnumbered. So the instance never even opens. The only ones you can get into with any regularity at all are the 15 man instances. And even those are hit and miss.
I leveled from 29 to 44 in STV. I saw 2 PVP fights in that entire time. The only other PVP that happens there is when the chest is dropped in the arena. I leveled for quite a while on another character around Southshore, where there used to be some PVP. But that was 20 on 10. Which suggests that there are only about 30 people total interested. You can say the same on rare occasion about the Crossroads. Maybe 30 people ge involved. These do not a majority make. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
The bulk of the players on the PVE servers aren't interested in PVP. They want the character progression. Which is why they'd rather farm instances for loot, or do the end-game raids, than participate in the Battlegrounds or in PVP in general. You cannot contest the evidence that few players have PVP titles, when PVP requires only 10 kills to get a title! Start up a newbie on any PVE server, run to the auction house, and have a look for yourself.
-Feyshtey-
^^
Count the number of PvP servers, you are wrong.
You can quite happily solo all the way to level 60 in WoW if you want too, I know because I did it when I rolled up an alt. As for PvP, it is pretty dead in WoW with the exception of BGs which are just contrived fights, if I want a contrived fight like that I will just play GW or an FPS because they are FREE from monthly fees. There is next to no open PvP in the game anymore, which is what I originally played it for, BGs killed almost all of it. Why do open PvP when you can farm Honour in the BGs?
WoW is good until you reach level 60 for the first time (8/10 for the pre-60 stuff IMO), then it just turns into grinding the same handful of zones over and over. Its the first MMO I have played that managed to make me find PvP boring! For the level 60 stuff I would actually give it 2/10.
The biggest problem with PvP in WoW is however well you do in the BGs you never actually change anything ... isn't that the whole point of MMOs? ... to create a world where your actions actually have an impact and consequences! No-one cares if guild X or Y wins AV 20 times in a week, but people do care if a guild runs a successful relic raid in DAoC or an alliance gets crushed by another alliance in EVE for example.
The one thing WoW is good at is being an introduction to MMOs, it is easy to get to grips with and there is enough content to last a casual player until shortly after they hit 60.
Anyway, as this is a VSOH thread, I hope the developers of VSOH take some time to implement a PvP system where the actions of the players actually have an impact on the server environment rather than just bolting on a PvP mode like so many MMOs seem too.
People need to be more specific when talking about PvP, What people really want to know is, will there be any loot drops during PvP, money, armor, or even a fricken ear.... untill then there is no such thing as PvP unless there is a real sense of loss or gain. am I right?
In DAoC you also had the option, as well as WoW. I think the RvR PvP is the best way. (this is MY opinion) Many people enjoy hardcore PvP as well, looting bodies and ganking and that sort of thing, just not my bag.