A lot of people are making apple to oranges comparisons.
You don't compare a video game to seeing a movie, buying a car, or such to see if it is worth the cost.
You compare a video game to other video games.
And honestly, certainly MMOs aren't worth a sub cost. You don't get new content that justifies the sub amount (again, compare the amount of new content to what you could get spending that much money on other games instead). What you often get is a tiny bit of content that requires a huge time investment to go through. In fact, subs encourage this sort of design -- spend as little on development as possible and make sure you keep those subbers just shy of being able to decide to cancel the sub. It's far easier to convince someone to do nothing and keep a sub verses convincing them to do something and buy a game or content. The latter requires more work and generally outputs a higher quality product.
Now some people don't have a bit problem getting ripped off for $10+ a month. I mean, it isn't that much money. And sub games hide this cost in a way -- out of sight, out of mind. It would certainly feel a lot different if you had to hand someone the money physically on the first of each month.
But the content certainly isn't worth the money. And it is certainly true that the vast majority of sub money is pure profit for a company. F2P games aren't much different here, really, though the psychology at work differs.
I really could care less what business model the game uses: f2p, fremium, sub, cs, don't care. What I care about is if the game is fun. If I like it I'll play it and possibly spend money, if I don't I won't Simple.
Nothing being milked, no one being abused. They put the game and make the model known. I decide if its worth my money based on how entertaining it is.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
A lot of people are making apple to oranges comparisons.
You don't compare a video game to seeing a movie, buying a car, or such to see if it is worth the cost.
You compare a video game to other video games.
And honestly, certainly MMOs aren't worth a sub cost. You don't get new content that justifies the sub amount (again, compare the amount of new content to what you could get spending that much money on other games instead). What you often get is a tiny bit of content that requires a huge time investment to go through. In fact, subs encourage this sort of design -- spend as little on development as possible and make sure you keep those subbers just shy of being able to decide to cancel the sub. It's far easier to convince someone to do nothing and keep a sub verses convincing them to do something and buy a game or content. The latter requires more work and generally outputs a higher quality product.
Now some people don't have a bit problem getting ripped off for $10+ a month. I mean, it isn't that much money. And sub games hide this cost in a way -- out of sight, out of mind. It would certainly feel a lot different if you had to hand someone the money physically on the first of each month.
But the content certainly isn't worth the money. And it is certainly true that the vast majority of sub money is pure profit for a company. F2P games aren't much different here, really, though the psychology at work differs.
First you're apple to oranges comparison argument is becoming old. In fact i can compare orange and apple, they are both fruit, one is orange the other one is red or green etc... Things are meant to be compare to see what you prefer.
Now we can compare video game with any others hobbies, because this is what there are hobbies.
Some mmo and not worth sub and some is and this is my choice and opinions and you have yours i respect that. If you dont want to paid the 10$ dont, I will if i like the game.
When you said ''It would certainly feel a lot different if you had to hand someone the money physically on the first of each month.'' in fact most people do this when they pay their bills. It's the same for mmo, they are renting you a service, for a price you get to play their game for a month, if you dont want to pay just dont play. I dont feel im being rip-off, 15$ a month it's less than a coffe per day for 1 month and i get to play everytimes i can or want.
Originally posted by XPraetorianX So many gamers complain about money. Sub fee this. Cash shop that QQ my PC cant play this game QQQQQQQQQQQ. News flash ! If you are broke you need to be working and not in front of your PC. Games are waaay more fun when life is stress free. I spend $50 starbucks every 5 days. $50 on a game is a damn good deal.
Well said.
15 bucks for a month of entertainment is a steal, AS long as you enjoyed it.
Nope nope. I'd rather pay up front for the content than get nickle and dimed to death. In fact I hate this wave of mobile games all going "free" to play, while limiting gameplay via some sort of energy mechanic.
Nothing is free. If you think you're getting something for free, you simply haven't figured out how they're screwing you.
$50? That is less than a single regular game cost here.
Sure, you can pay less, I myself paid less yearly for Guildwars if you split what I paid over the time I played it but there is more than just money to think about here.
I am willing to pay more for a good game, a lot more. I also drink Guiness which is more expensive here than regular beer but still worth it.
With what's currently avaliable on the market and bigger competition in the industry any single MMORPG that will cost you more than $50 a year is ripping you off.
I refuse to be the cow and I'm glad all the experience in the genre helped me find products with close to equal value with reasonable prices.
That's one of the main issues MMORPG's like WOW playerbase is declining and it's not surprising at all. You can't have forever a successful, growing game if you invest back only 1 out of 5 dollars you earn from it.
I'm very glad to see that thx to wise consumers like me companies becoming far more reasonable and realistic with their asking price for their product. SOE with DCUO is best example.
The game launched with $50 box cost and month of free time then charging $15 monthly fee. I would never get involved in the game, but since it was Jan 2011 and with a promo $35 for box and a month free + being a huge fan of the DC universe IP kinda persuaded me.
Today DCUO is accessable for totally free. It has DLC (mini expansions) with new content and they are about to release a 5th DLC this month. Thx to their other promo last month with 50% off DLC I managed to get 2 DLC for only $5. One I got for free with extra station which I got for free back in the days when I purchased it and only paid $5 for the 2nd DLC.
Since now is September 2012 from January 2011 they released 5 DLC. which means they're releasing every 4 month new content/expansion that cost me $10. So overall in the long run I would enjoy a high quality, fully voiced MMORPG with great graphics, raids, PvP, solo content and so much more for only $30 a year. Not to mention how great, fresh and innovative the combat is.
For a former WOW player thats a huge step forward since WOW requires monthly fee + expansion fee, all in all total I was looking to spend $200 a year on average counting $14 a month, not $15 with expansion coming on 2 years, yup see how much I'm saving.
DCUO and WOW is only my experience from what I've been involved with recently. I'm glad that I help push this genre forward by spending my $ wisely as well as many others. 2012 definetely pushed the genre forward significantly from what we've seen so far.
absolutely agree. One of the reasons i stopped playing. the other was where they put that money. It's definitely not going towards content or new features. They put that into their expansions and then expected more money for the expansions. Well what happened to the $100 for 1 year you just got? oh your CEO needed that new house in the Caymans I see.
Originally posted by XPraetorianX So many gamers complain about money. Sub fee this. Cash shop that QQ my PC cant play this game QQQQQQQQQQQ. News flash ! If you are broke you need to be working and not in front of your PC. Games are waaay more fun when life is stress free. I spend $50 starbucks every 5 days. $50 on a game is a damn good deal.
Well said.
15 bucks for a month of entertainment is a steal, AS long as you enjoyed it.
When companies will fight harder for $ like latest example with SOE and DCUO MMORPG players will get better value, better game for a better price in the long run. That's the bottom point.
If there is innovation, if there is quality surely I would pay what WOW has been charging over the years and even more. Unfortunately, Blizzard hasn't done anything significant and game breaking to their game to justify the same price they been asking since WOW was released. We are not in 2004-2007 anymore.
Could WOW revamp the entire graphic engine? Maeby. Could WOW add tons of other endgame features beside raiding? Definitely. Could WOW merge servers and increase player population? Absolutely. Could Blizzard afford to do all these things based on the income they received from WOW. Of course.
Why is it not happening? There are many reasons, but one obvious reason is they milking the WOW community as much as they can until it dies so then they can release their next new MMORPG (Titan) they've been building in secret, which means they have no regards or care of what happens to those who've been progressing their chr's over the years.
Raiding several different raids over 1-2 years just for a mount as reward, which adds up to your 125+ mount collection, that you'll replace by a newer mount with the next expansion and then being forced to quit the game cuz it died and say goodbye to all your mounts, achivements, gold, alts, community and so on is like I said complete lack of care for their customers.
I play MMORPG's that are worth progressing in. Companies that manage to get those MMORPG to grow and remain loyal to their community is where the players should think about spending their $. A company that gaves up on a successful MMORPG is even more sad and that's exacly what Blizzard has demonstrated.
New games come out all the time, but new is broken, filled with bugs, far less features and unpredictable future. On the bright side this is the best time for players to decide with their $ in what direction they want to see the genre.
If a company can eat your $ for half the work done it will gladly continue to do it.
2001 I spent my $ on Ultima Online, then Star Wars Galaxies in 2003 then World of Warcraft in 2004 (after SWG NGE) then bought Guild Wars 1, then I will still newb and as I remember Sims Online, then FFXI for a month, then EVE for a month, then Aion for 3 months, then DCUO for 3 months and came back after they improved the game significantly, fixing all they needed to fix and reducing costs.
No LOTR, no Rift, no FFIX, no EQII, no SWTOR, no TERA, no TSW, no GW2, no WOW:MOP.
So as you can see it's been almost 2 years now and my vast MMORPG experience helped me save tons of $ and speak with my wallet.
Like I said 2012 has been best year so far for the genre since I can recall. A lot of MMORPG's released, unfortunately most of them did not consult with Kopogero before starting their developments or played too safe and believing they can continue to eat my $ as they did in the past. 2013 and beyond will be even greater.
A lot of people are making apple to oranges comparisons.
You don't compare a video game to seeing a movie, buying a car, or such to see if it is worth the cost.
You compare a video game to other video games.
And honestly, certainly MMOs aren't worth a sub cost. You don't get new content that justifies the sub amount (again, compare the amount of new content to what you could get spending that much money on other games instead). What you often get is a tiny bit of content that requires a huge time investment to go through. In fact, subs encourage this sort of design -- spend as little on development as possible and make sure you keep those subbers just shy of being able to decide to cancel the sub. It's far easier to convince someone to do nothing and keep a sub verses convincing them to do something and buy a game or content. The latter requires more work and generally outputs a higher quality product.
Now some people don't have a bit problem getting ripped off for $10+ a month. I mean, it isn't that much money. And sub games hide this cost in a way -- out of sight, out of mind. It would certainly feel a lot different if you had to hand someone the money physically on the first of each month.
But the content certainly isn't worth the money. And it is certainly true that the vast majority of sub money is pure profit for a company. F2P games aren't much different here, really, though the psychology at work differs.
First you're apple to oranges comparison argument is becoming old. In fact i can compare orange and apple, they are both fruit, one is orange the other one is red or green etc... Things are meant to be compare to see what you prefer.
Now we can compare video game with any others hobbies, because this is what there are hobbies.
Some mmo and not worth sub and some is and this is my choice and opinions and you have yours i respect that. If you dont want to paid the 10$ dont, I will if i like the game.
When you said ''It would certainly feel a lot different if you had to hand someone the money physically on the first of each month.'' in fact most people do this when they pay their bills. It's the same for mmo, they are renting you a service, for a price you get to play their game for a month, if you dont want to pay just dont play. I dont feel im being rip-off, 15$ a month it's less than a coffe per day for 1 month and i get to play everytimes i can or want.
"Apples to oranges" is an expression, and as such you aren't meant to take it literally. It refers to the fallacy comparing two different things as if they were the same, essentially.
Yes, game are hobbies. But all hobbies do not cost the same amount of money. Collecting vintage cars is also a hobby. But to say paying $1,000 for a game because a vintage car would cost more is quite ridiculous. Similarly, comparing paying for a game to going out to a movie is also quite silly if you are doing it from the perspective that the value per dollar should be equal. Some hobbies are just more expensive than others because the economic factors at work are fundamentally different.
So yes, it is a fallacy to compare the cost of a game to another, inherently more expensive, hobby. If you are going to compare on value per dollar, then you need to stay within the same general category. So compare games to games. As such, most MMOs come up rather short here, given that there are tons of games out there with free online servers and the like. Plus, computing power and bandwidth are constantly getting cheaper. Add to that the fact that the content updates aren't nearly enough to justify the expense and it is quite objectively the case that they aren't delivering a lot of value per dollar. Certainly there are other games that have this problem as well, but that doesn't exclude MMOs.
As for the psychology involved. There's a huge difference between cancelling a subscription and choosing to pay for something at a given point in time (even if it is monthly). You do NOT pay a 15 dollar bill by hand each month for your MMO. At best it is part of your overall credit card bill and in other cases it is just part of a debit card and so there's no direct payment at all. And this in no way addresses the fact that to not get the service you have to act. That's fundamentally different from having to act to get more content. While from a purely rational perspective it looks the same, the fact is that we are not rational creatures and getting someone to act is notably harder than not, even if the economic cost in both cases is the same.
I'm not surprised people who pay don't feel ripped off. The first time someone wonders if the game is worth it, cognitive dissonance sets in. There's a disagreement in their minds about their enjoyment of something and whether it is worth a particular amount of money. Yet, they've been paying for this thing and are playing the game. Typically in such cases, the person will resolve cognitive dissonance by viewing their behavior as correct. So normally the decision will be that they must be enjoying it, since they are paying for it and playing it.
The psychological factors are part of why I view the sub fee for MMOs as an inherently bad system for the consumer. Psychologically it tends to reinforce paying the sub (e.g. the game has to be worse than it otherwise would be to get people to not play it). It also enables and encourages the developers to release lower quality content. It is just a horrible system on the whole. Though if a developer gets it working, it is great for them -- more money for less work, which is why a lot of them try to go after the sub-based market. It is better if new content must generally be paid for a single time (e.g. paid expansion only).
Originally posted by Paradigm68If you're paying $50+ a year on a mmo that is labled f2p...
Someone has to be, and probably more than that even. Those who run F2P games still need to pay staff, maintain servers, buy bandwidth and offer reasonable ROI to the shareholders (assuming corporate, replace with relevant structure if indie developer.)
Those things cost money - anyone actually playing for free, is having their free time subsidized by the 'idiots' who are willing to shell out.
Originally posted by BeilochIf you have a hard time budgeting $15 a month + maybe 1 xpac a year maybe you should worry about making more money instead of playing video games.Know who's being screwed? the people who only play "F2P" games then proceed to spend more than what a years worth of subs and xpacs would cost them in the cash shops. Thinking they 'outsmarted' those big ol' game companies and are more effecient than those silly 'subscribers.' And they do it to themselves.
But if they didn't, then all the guys who are playing for literally free would be crying as their servers get shut down.
Originally posted by XPraetorianX So many gamers complain about money. Sub fee this. Cash shop that QQ my PC cant play this game QQQQQQQQQQQ. News flash ! If you are broke you need to be working and not in front of your PC. Games are waaay more fun when life is stress free. I spend $50 starbucks every 5 days. $50 on a game is a damn good deal.
Well said.
15 bucks for a month of entertainment is a steal, AS long as you enjoyed it.
When companies will fight harder for $ like latest example with SOE and DCUO MMORPG players will get better value, better game for a better price in the long run. That's the bottom point.
If there is innovation, if there is quality surely I would pay what WOW has been charging over the years and even more. Unfortunately, Blizzard hasn't done anything significant and game breaking to their game to justify the same price they been asking since WOW was released. We are not in 2004-2007 anymore.
Could WOW revamp the entire graphic engine? Maeby. Could WOW add tons of other endgame features beside raiding? Definitely. Could WOW merge servers and increase player population? Absolutely. Could Blizzard afford to do all these things based on the income they received from WOW. Of course.
Why is it not happening? There are many reasons, but one obvious reason is they milking the WOW community as much as they can until it dies so then they can release their next new MMORPG (Titan) they've been building in secret, which means they have no regards or care of what happens to those who've been progressing their chr's over the years.
Raiding several different raids over 1-2 years just for a mount as reward, which adds up to your 125+ mount collection, that you'll replace by a newer mount with the next expansion and then being forced to quit the game cuz it died and say goodbye to all your mounts, achivements, gold, alts, community and so on is like I said complete lack of care for their customers.
I play MMORPG's that are worth progressing in. Companies that manage to get those MMORPG to grow and remain loyal to their community is where the players should think about spending their $. A company that gaves up on a successful MMORPG is even more sad and that's exacly what Blizzard has demonstrated.
New games come out all the time, but new is broken, filled with bugs, far less features and unpredictable future. On the bright side this is the best time for players to decide with their $ in what direction they want to see the genre.
If a company can eat your $ for half the work done it will gladly continue to do it.
2001 I spent my $ on Ultima Online, then Star Wars Galaxies in 2003 then World of Warcraft in 2004 (after SWG NGE) then bought Guild Wars 1, then I will still newb and as I remember Sims Online, then FFXI for a month, then EVE for a month, then Aion for 3 months, then DCUO for 3 months and came back after they improved the game significantly, fixing all they needed to fix and reducing costs.
No LOTR, no Rift, no FFIX, no EQII, no SWTOR, no TERA, no TSW, no GW2, no WOW:MOP.
So as you can see it's been almost 2 years now and my vast MMORPG experience helped me save tons of $ and speak with my wallet.
Like I said 2012 has been best year so far for the genre since I can recall. A lot of MMORPG's released, unfortunately most of them did not consult with Kopogero before starting their developments or played too safe and believing they can continue to eat my $ as they did in the past. 2013 and beyond will be even greater.
Not going to lie to you. There is nothing vast about your mmo experience. The majority of the people you are bickering with here have been playing mmos well before 2001. Hell by 2001 I had already been in UO for almost 4 years. Many people here were playing M59 and muds well before UO was even released.
It's good you think you’re so experienced though. Keep that chip on your shoulder and your head held high. But just so you know it's going to do you much good here.
in the past year, I have played AOC (very little), LOTRO and DDO. All of which are free to play.
DDO is a really solid game and a lot of fun.
That said, WOW is simply a magnitude better. I do not have enough hours to play both DDO and WOW a lot.. so for me, the quality of WOW is worth the $15, even though I could have fun for free in DDO.
If I sell you a porsche for $10, but offer to give you a ford Fiesta for free.. which would you take? I guess if you only have $5 to your name, you would say the Fiesta... and then cry that anyone who bought the Porsche is an idiot, right?
Azrile is 100% correct. I play the best games I can, period. If you figure the ammount of time I play MMOs (at least 20 hours a week), we're looking at 20 cents per hour for a subscription. Thats less than I pay for movies, television, books ... pretty much any of my forms of entertainment.
"Best" games get old. Nothing last forever.
WOW is better .. but i have been playing it for a long time. I will not sub after my annual pass is up. It is better to play F2P games and hop around to get more varieties.
DCUO, LOTRO, DDO are not bad games. Even those not as good as WOW, it is boring to just play WOW. I mean, COD is a good shooter, but are you going to ONLY play COD and no other FPS? Of course not.
I don't believe the topic was about WoW, per say. I certainly have played WoW a lot, but I also (quite willingly and enthusiastically) have been subscribed to a dozen different MMOs in the past few years. The Secret World, City of Heroes (before it was old and went F2P), Everquest 2, Eve and even The Realm to name a few. Sure playing one game for 5 years it will possibly get boring - that isn't what the thread is about (or if it is, the OP went about it a pretty stupid way). The reality is that a subscription model is still some of the best bang for your buck in terms of entertainment value per dollar and generally the level of quality that comes with a subscription is unrivaled.
I also bought DCUO, played for the free month, and moth balled that piece of garbage. Horrible user experience on the PC all around. It certainly didn't go F2P because it was successful and a good game in the first place.
"Apples to oranges" is an expression, and as such you aren't meant to take it literally. It refers to the fallacy comparing two different things as if they were the same, essentially.
I dont care if it's a fallacy, the real reason here is to give a persperctive of expenses, people do it all the time cause this is a good way to compare things and opnions. I will compared two hobbies even if they are from a diferent genre. This way at the end it will give me an idea if it's worth it. Cause that the real question here.. Is it worth it to paid more than 50$ per year for a mmorpg. There is no right or wrong to this question, this is just a matter of perspective.
This is exactly what the op forget. He didnt suggest that im being milked but instead he stated it as a fact, simply because for him this is not worth it. So therefore we are not wise consumer and should not pay sub fees.
Yes, game are hobbies. But all hobbies do not cost the same amount of money. Collecting vintage cars is also a hobby. But to say paying $1,000 for a game because a vintage car would cost more is quite ridiculous. Similarly, comparing paying for a game to going out to a movie is also quite silly if you are doing it from the perspective that the value per dollar should be equal. Some hobbies are just more expensive than others because the economic factors at work are fundamentally different.
So yes, it is a fallacy to compare the cost of a game to another, inherently more expensive, hobby. If you are going to compare on value per dollar, then you need to stay within the same general category. So compare games to games. As such, most MMOs come up rather short here, given that there are tons of games out there with free online servers and the like. Plus, computing power and bandwidth are constantly getting cheaper. Add to that the fact that the content updates aren't nearly enough to justify the expense and it is quite objectively the case that they aren't delivering a lot of value per dollar. Certainly there are other games that have this problem as well, but that doesn't exclude MMOs.
As for the psychology involved. There's a huge difference between cancelling a subscription and choosing to pay for something at a given point in time (even if it is monthly). You do NOT pay a 15 dollar bill by hand each month for your MMO. At best it is part of your overall credit card bill and in other cases it is just part of a debit card and so there's no direct payment at all. And this in no way addresses the fact that to not get the service you have to act. That's fundamentally different from having to act to get more content. While from a purely rational perspective it looks the same, the fact is that we are not rational creatures and getting someone to act is notably harder than not, even if the economic cost in both cases is the same.
Paying by hand or per credit card, it's the same thing. I still have to pay my credit card so to resume, i have to work to pay it. You just play with words here, you divert the attention so we lose the real subject here.. That a fallacy too dont you think?
I'm not surprised people who pay don't feel ripped off. The first time someone wonders if the game is worth it, cognitive dissonance sets in. There's a disagreement in their minds about their enjoyment of something and whether it is worth a particular amount of money. Yet, they've been paying for this thing and are playing the game. Typically in such cases, the person will resolve cognitive dissonance by viewing their behavior as correct. So normally the decision will be that they must be enjoying it, since they are paying for it and playing it.
Ok lol that one is good, so if i understand correctly, i dont really enjoy the game, no i think i enjoy it because i pay for it. Funny how people will use psychology like that.. again you are trying to divert the real matter with some crap, you probably read in your spychology class. btw i dont take psychology too seriously , cause most of the time the people who right these books are crazy.
The psychological factors are part of why I view the sub fee for MMOs as an inherently bad system for the consumer. Psychologically it tends to reinforce paying the sub (e.g. the game has to be worse than it otherwise would be to get people to not play it). It also enables and encourages the developers to release lower quality content. It is just a horrible system on the whole. Though if a developer gets it working, it is great for them -- more money for less work, which is why a lot of them try to go after the sub-based market. It is better if new content must generally be paid for a single time (e.g. paid expansion only).
Well the rest of your wall of text is what we call "false generalization", you put the discussion to platitudes where the subject is lost. I can use big words too you know. Not too bad for a french who never take english class...
In short you play with words to make us miss the real points of this thread. Ironic dont you think? you accuse us of using a fallacy but you do the exact same thing.
Just like folks who wear designer label clothing or Rolex ™ watches, I pay $50.00 plus sub fees because it makes me look that much more cooler than you.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Maybe you do that. I sure don't, nor do I see the point in it.
I judge each game on its own merits and decide if it's something I'm interested in, if I enjoy it, and if the cost to play is worth it to me.
I've chosen to play MMOs with fewer overall featuers than others boast because the features it did have were ones that mattered the most to me. I've chosen games with weaker graphics, animation and so forth over others who excelled in those categories, simply because the one with less eye candy had gameplay that was more fun to me.
I've passed up on many F2P MMOs to play a sub-based one instead, because the sub-based one was far more fun and well put together to me than any of the F2P options combined.
"Now some people don't have a bit problem getting ripped off for $10+ a month. I mean, it isn't that much money. And sub games hide this cost in a way -- out of sight, out of mind. It would certainly feel a lot different if you had to hand someone the money physically on the first of each month."
This entire paragraph of yours is flawed from the first sentence because you're projecting your own personal views on to everyone else. If my $15 a month allows me to log in as much as I want, play as much as I want, do as much as I want for 30 days at a stretch, and that experience is fun to me, then I am not being ripped off. I am being well entertained for my money. Period.
Your analogy of handing someone the money physically on the first of each month is absurdly and hysterically bad on several obvious levels. You should think before making remarks like that.
Originally posted by tabindex I'd prefer games to bring back the old EQ Legends server model where players can pay more to play on a server that doesn't have poor people on it.
Lol, best comment ever. Im with you 100%
Dragnon - Guildmaster - Albion Central Bank in Albion Online
Azrile is 100% correct. I play the best games I can, period. If you figure the ammount of time I play MMOs (at least 20 hours a week), we're looking at 20 cents per hour for a subscription. Thats less than I pay for movies, television, books ... pretty much any of my forms of entertainment.
Azrile is definitely 100% correct.
If what you are playing costs money and you are enjoying yourself then that expenditure is worth ANd is a wise use of money (taking into account that people are paying their bills, saving it a bit, etc.).
and 50 dollars a year is a bit more than 4.00 per month. I think I can swing that and a bit more.
If such a game existed. My subs are less than 15 per month and still not an issue.
It would be an issue if I was paying that and didn't like the games.
Conversely if I force myself to play a f2p that i really don't like then I don't really value my free time as much as I claim I do.
Haha, the OP does not value his time?
If I did not value my time I wouldn't be able to afford to enjoy to do things that I want like playing a MMORPG as much as I wanted every single day in the week for the entire year. The fact is I'm at advantage over you because I'm enjoying a MMORPG as much and even more than a previous MMORPG which cost me at least 5x more.
I've seen lots out there who drive porche and living in a basement with high debt on their back. Plz call me back when you can afford to play MMORPG's as a hardcore player and then you talk to me about MMORPG's and their quality and who values time more.
20 hours a week is the casual club.
Well, good. Then that's settled.
Don't complain about a measley sub fee which is far less than many things one pays for in this world.
Regardless, as another poster puts it, if one compares it to movies or other diversions as opposed to games.
which I disagree with as leisure activites are leisure activites.
Also, I don't think you are clear about money. If you can pay and were willing to pay 5x more for an mmo, $250.00 per year, then anything you pay now is a bargain.
Or each year do you send out missives measuring cost/benefit based on your income/expenditures? So when you played the $250.00 game you made a post indicating that anyone who pays more than $250.00 per year is wasing their money. This year is $50.00. Will it be even less next year or will we find out that you find it fine to pay even more on a cash shop the year after?
Spend your money how you want after you pay your bills of course.
Because as you say, you know someone who has a porsche but lives in a basement with debt. Isn't the cost of a paltry sub fee even less than that? Even if you have two subs?
Tha'ts only 393.76 at 15.99 per month. I'm sure many of us have spent that on a weekend or two. And that's certainly better than owning a porsche with debt because of the car.
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ATM you grow up and like me will have to buy a house based on what money you earn and your deposit. Then you have to pay it off for the rest of your life, that is being milked my friend... I have no problems paying monthly for a game that I enjoy, its real life that milks you hardest, thats if you are a participant.
If you live in a setup paid for by your parents and you are not in school, college or working then you are milking your parents. Its these people that are the captains of milking.
It depends on how you value money...To some people 1K a year is nothing as they will break it down to how much they spend a day gaming and say "well its ONLY 3 dollars a day!"...... Some people make/have alot of money to waste and others dont.
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A lot of people are making apple to oranges comparisons.
You don't compare a video game to seeing a movie, buying a car, or such to see if it is worth the cost.
You compare a video game to other video games.
And honestly, certainly MMOs aren't worth a sub cost. You don't get new content that justifies the sub amount (again, compare the amount of new content to what you could get spending that much money on other games instead). What you often get is a tiny bit of content that requires a huge time investment to go through. In fact, subs encourage this sort of design -- spend as little on development as possible and make sure you keep those subbers just shy of being able to decide to cancel the sub. It's far easier to convince someone to do nothing and keep a sub verses convincing them to do something and buy a game or content. The latter requires more work and generally outputs a higher quality product.
Now some people don't have a bit problem getting ripped off for $10+ a month. I mean, it isn't that much money. And sub games hide this cost in a way -- out of sight, out of mind. It would certainly feel a lot different if you had to hand someone the money physically on the first of each month.
But the content certainly isn't worth the money. And it is certainly true that the vast majority of sub money is pure profit for a company. F2P games aren't much different here, really, though the psychology at work differs.
I really could care less what business model the game uses: f2p, fremium, sub, cs, don't care. What I care about is if the game is fun. If I like it I'll play it and possibly spend money, if I don't I won't Simple.
Nothing being milked, no one being abused. They put the game and make the model known. I decide if its worth my money based on how entertaining it is.
First you're apple to oranges comparison argument is becoming old. In fact i can compare orange and apple, they are both fruit, one is orange the other one is red or green etc... Things are meant to be compare to see what you prefer.
Now we can compare video game with any others hobbies, because this is what there are hobbies.
Some mmo and not worth sub and some is and this is my choice and opinions and you have yours i respect that. If you dont want to paid the 10$ dont, I will if i like the game.
When you said ''It would certainly feel a lot different if you had to hand someone the money physically on the first of each month.'' in fact most people do this when they pay their bills. It's the same for mmo, they are renting you a service, for a price you get to play their game for a month, if you dont want to pay just dont play. I dont feel im being rip-off, 15$ a month it's less than a coffe per day for 1 month and i get to play everytimes i can or want.
Well said.
15 bucks for a month of entertainment is a steal, AS long as you enjoyed it.
Nope nope. I'd rather pay up front for the content than get nickle and dimed to death. In fact I hate this wave of mobile games all going "free" to play, while limiting gameplay via some sort of energy mechanic.
Nothing is free. If you think you're getting something for free, you simply haven't figured out how they're screwing you.
$50? That is less than a single regular game cost here.
Sure, you can pay less, I myself paid less yearly for Guildwars if you split what I paid over the time I played it but there is more than just money to think about here.
I am willing to pay more for a good game, a lot more. I also drink Guiness which is more expensive here than regular beer but still worth it.
absolutely agree. One of the reasons i stopped playing. the other was where they put that money. It's definitely not going towards content or new features. They put that into their expansions and then expected more money for the expansions. Well what happened to the $100 for 1 year you just got? oh your CEO needed that new house in the Caymans I see.
When companies will fight harder for $ like latest example with SOE and DCUO MMORPG players will get better value, better game for a better price in the long run. That's the bottom point.
If there is innovation, if there is quality surely I would pay what WOW has been charging over the years and even more. Unfortunately, Blizzard hasn't done anything significant and game breaking to their game to justify the same price they been asking since WOW was released. We are not in 2004-2007 anymore.
Could WOW revamp the entire graphic engine? Maeby. Could WOW add tons of other endgame features beside raiding? Definitely. Could WOW merge servers and increase player population? Absolutely. Could Blizzard afford to do all these things based on the income they received from WOW. Of course.
Why is it not happening? There are many reasons, but one obvious reason is they milking the WOW community as much as they can until it dies so then they can release their next new MMORPG (Titan) they've been building in secret, which means they have no regards or care of what happens to those who've been progressing their chr's over the years.
Raiding several different raids over 1-2 years just for a mount as reward, which adds up to your 125+ mount collection, that you'll replace by a newer mount with the next expansion and then being forced to quit the game cuz it died and say goodbye to all your mounts, achivements, gold, alts, community and so on is like I said complete lack of care for their customers.
I play MMORPG's that are worth progressing in. Companies that manage to get those MMORPG to grow and remain loyal to their community is where the players should think about spending their $. A company that gaves up on a successful MMORPG is even more sad and that's exacly what Blizzard has demonstrated.
New games come out all the time, but new is broken, filled with bugs, far less features and unpredictable future. On the bright side this is the best time for players to decide with their $ in what direction they want to see the genre.
If a company can eat your $ for half the work done it will gladly continue to do it.
2001 I spent my $ on Ultima Online, then Star Wars Galaxies in 2003 then World of Warcraft in 2004 (after SWG NGE) then bought Guild Wars 1, then I will still newb and as I remember Sims Online, then FFXI for a month, then EVE for a month, then Aion for 3 months, then DCUO for 3 months and came back after they improved the game significantly, fixing all they needed to fix and reducing costs.
No LOTR, no Rift, no FFIX, no EQII, no SWTOR, no TERA, no TSW, no GW2, no WOW:MOP.
So as you can see it's been almost 2 years now and my vast MMORPG experience helped me save tons of $ and speak with my wallet.
Like I said 2012 has been best year so far for the genre since I can recall. A lot of MMORPG's released, unfortunately most of them did not consult with Kopogero before starting their developments or played too safe and believing they can continue to eat my $ as they did in the past. 2013 and beyond will be even greater.
"Apples to oranges" is an expression, and as such you aren't meant to take it literally. It refers to the fallacy comparing two different things as if they were the same, essentially.
Yes, game are hobbies. But all hobbies do not cost the same amount of money. Collecting vintage cars is also a hobby. But to say paying $1,000 for a game because a vintage car would cost more is quite ridiculous. Similarly, comparing paying for a game to going out to a movie is also quite silly if you are doing it from the perspective that the value per dollar should be equal. Some hobbies are just more expensive than others because the economic factors at work are fundamentally different.
So yes, it is a fallacy to compare the cost of a game to another, inherently more expensive, hobby. If you are going to compare on value per dollar, then you need to stay within the same general category. So compare games to games. As such, most MMOs come up rather short here, given that there are tons of games out there with free online servers and the like. Plus, computing power and bandwidth are constantly getting cheaper. Add to that the fact that the content updates aren't nearly enough to justify the expense and it is quite objectively the case that they aren't delivering a lot of value per dollar. Certainly there are other games that have this problem as well, but that doesn't exclude MMOs.
As for the psychology involved. There's a huge difference between cancelling a subscription and choosing to pay for something at a given point in time (even if it is monthly). You do NOT pay a 15 dollar bill by hand each month for your MMO. At best it is part of your overall credit card bill and in other cases it is just part of a debit card and so there's no direct payment at all. And this in no way addresses the fact that to not get the service you have to act. That's fundamentally different from having to act to get more content. While from a purely rational perspective it looks the same, the fact is that we are not rational creatures and getting someone to act is notably harder than not, even if the economic cost in both cases is the same.
I'm not surprised people who pay don't feel ripped off. The first time someone wonders if the game is worth it, cognitive dissonance sets in. There's a disagreement in their minds about their enjoyment of something and whether it is worth a particular amount of money. Yet, they've been paying for this thing and are playing the game. Typically in such cases, the person will resolve cognitive dissonance by viewing their behavior as correct. So normally the decision will be that they must be enjoying it, since they are paying for it and playing it.
The psychological factors are part of why I view the sub fee for MMOs as an inherently bad system for the consumer. Psychologically it tends to reinforce paying the sub (e.g. the game has to be worse than it otherwise would be to get people to not play it). It also enables and encourages the developers to release lower quality content. It is just a horrible system on the whole. Though if a developer gets it working, it is great for them -- more money for less work, which is why a lot of them try to go after the sub-based market. It is better if new content must generally be paid for a single time (e.g. paid expansion only).
Someone has to be, and probably more than that even. Those who run F2P games still need to pay staff, maintain servers, buy bandwidth and offer reasonable ROI to the shareholders (assuming corporate, replace with relevant structure if indie developer.)
Those things cost money - anyone actually playing for free, is having their free time subsidized by the 'idiots' who are willing to shell out.
But if they didn't, then all the guys who are playing for literally free would be crying as their servers get shut down.
Not going to lie to you. There is nothing vast about your mmo experience. The majority of the people you are bickering with here have been playing mmos well before 2001. Hell by 2001 I had already been in UO for almost 4 years. Many people here were playing M59 and muds well before UO was even released.
It's good you think you’re so experienced though. Keep that chip on your shoulder and your head held high. But just so you know it's going to do you much good here.
I don't believe the topic was about WoW, per say. I certainly have played WoW a lot, but I also (quite willingly and enthusiastically) have been subscribed to a dozen different MMOs in the past few years. The Secret World, City of Heroes (before it was old and went F2P), Everquest 2, Eve and even The Realm to name a few. Sure playing one game for 5 years it will possibly get boring - that isn't what the thread is about (or if it is, the OP went about it a pretty stupid way). The reality is that a subscription model is still some of the best bang for your buck in terms of entertainment value per dollar and generally the level of quality that comes with a subscription is unrivaled.
I also bought DCUO, played for the free month, and moth balled that piece of garbage. Horrible user experience on the PC all around. It certainly didn't go F2P because it was successful and a good game in the first place.
10/10
Best troll i have seen on this site.
Just like folks who wear designer label clothing or Rolex ™ watches, I pay $50.00 plus sub fees because it makes me look that much more cooler than you.
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I don't care for price if enjoying in game
playing TSW, got lifetime and suporting game with 10 $ monthly via FC points (not use cash store ,yet,nothing interesting there for me)
MMOs aren't toilet paper or brands of soap. The best deal doesn't mean you're getting your money's worth.
The game has to actually be GOOD. That's a factor you, the "wise consumer", don't even consider.
I'll gladly pay a monthly fee for my game if the competiter offers a fraction of the content for much more than a fraction of the price.
THIS!
Maybe you do that. I sure don't, nor do I see the point in it.
I judge each game on its own merits and decide if it's something I'm interested in, if I enjoy it, and if the cost to play is worth it to me.
I've chosen to play MMOs with fewer overall featuers than others boast because the features it did have were ones that mattered the most to me. I've chosen games with weaker graphics, animation and so forth over others who excelled in those categories, simply because the one with less eye candy had gameplay that was more fun to me.
I've passed up on many F2P MMOs to play a sub-based one instead, because the sub-based one was far more fun and well put together to me than any of the F2P options combined.
"Now some people don't have a bit problem getting ripped off for $10+ a month. I mean, it isn't that much money. And sub games hide this cost in a way -- out of sight, out of mind. It would certainly feel a lot different if you had to hand someone the money physically on the first of each month."
This entire paragraph of yours is flawed from the first sentence because you're projecting your own personal views on to everyone else. If my $15 a month allows me to log in as much as I want, play as much as I want, do as much as I want for 30 days at a stretch, and that experience is fun to me, then I am not being ripped off. I am being well entertained for my money. Period.
Your analogy of handing someone the money physically on the first of each month is absurdly and hysterically bad on several obvious levels. You should think before making remarks like that.
Lol, best comment ever. Im with you 100%
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Well, good. Then that's settled.
Don't complain about a measley sub fee which is far less than many things one pays for in this world.
Regardless, as another poster puts it, if one compares it to movies or other diversions as opposed to games.
which I disagree with as leisure activites are leisure activites.
Also, I don't think you are clear about money. If you can pay and were willing to pay 5x more for an mmo, $250.00 per year, then anything you pay now is a bargain.
Or each year do you send out missives measuring cost/benefit based on your income/expenditures? So when you played the $250.00 game you made a post indicating that anyone who pays more than $250.00 per year is wasing their money. This year is $50.00. Will it be even less next year or will we find out that you find it fine to pay even more on a cash shop the year after?
Spend your money how you want after you pay your bills of course.
Because as you say, you know someone who has a porsche but lives in a basement with debt. Isn't the cost of a paltry sub fee even less than that? Even if you have two subs?
Tha'ts only 393.76 at 15.99 per month. I'm sure many of us have spent that on a weekend or two. And that's certainly better than owning a porsche with debt because of the car.
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ATM if u're spending $50+ a week on smokes and drink you're being milked.
ATM you grow up and like me will have to buy a house based on what money you earn and your deposit. Then you have to pay it off for the rest of your life, that is being milked my friend... I have no problems paying monthly for a game that I enjoy, its real life that milks you hardest, thats if you are a participant.
If you live in a setup paid for by your parents and you are not in school, college or working then you are milking your parents. Its these people that are the captains of milking.